Microsoft filed a statement in support of Epic's request to keep access to the Apple SDK for its Unreal Engine

[Dalek]

Are people really trying to pretend that Epic had no clue what was going to happen? That Apple are just being petty? Come the fuck on. I have no horse in this race but it's pretty obvious Epic knew exactly what they were doing and were trying to leverage both Fortnite's popularity with gamers and UE4's popularity with devs to force Apple to budge.

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Yep. Epic had a responsibility to their license holders who develop games using their software. Epic knowingly went and jeopardized all of that for a publicity stunt-you would think people would clearly see that, but instead we have people here defending Epic's decisions as good for developers!!

Unity is in the licensing and ad business and you bet your ass they wouldn't make a bone headed decision to put all of their customers livelihoods at risk.

 

[Lobster Roll]

And that's why he now has a multi billion dollar company starting from a garage. Again, sure dude.

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Tell us what you think about our billionaire president that's risen to the highest rank in the United States.

 

[Hu3]

And that's why he now has a multi billion dollar company starting from a garage. Again, sure dude.

Click to shrink...

So by your standards trump is a fucking erudite. Gotcha 👌🏻

 

[Aureon]

Ironically, it's the opposite. Treating Epic differently and letting them break the rules would be Apple abusing their market position.

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Uuuh... no?

Abuse of a dominant position

A company can restrict competition if it is in a position of strength on a given market. A dominant position is not in itself anti-competitive, but if the company exploits this position to eliminate competition, it is considered to have abused it.


Examples include:

• charging unreasonably high prices
• depriving smaller competitors of customers by selling at artificially low prices they can't compete with
• obstructing competitors in the market (or in another related market) by forcing consumers to buy a product which is artificially related to a more popular, in-demand product
• refusing to deal with certain customers or offering special discounts to customers who buy all or most of their supplies from the dominant company
• making the sale of one product conditional on the sale of another product.

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Emphasis not mine.

 

[Scottoest]

I continue not to particularly like either company in this fight, though it's pretty obvious that Epic knew exactly what they were doing in trying to force Apple's hand.

Microsoft in this case are just representing their own interests, as they rely on the UE Apple SDK. I imagine they aren't happy with Epic essentially holding them as hostages, via their reliance on Unreal Engine.

 

[ika]

Interesting move by Microsoft. They certainly want to knock Apple down a peg and of course they want Xcloud on iOS. I don't think this moves the needle at all in Epic's favor but I can see their statement being used against them should Microsoft want the Series X to be walled off like things have been on consoles.

Edit: Actually forgot their statement is specifically just for access to the SDKs. I will be curious if Microsoft will put more public support into Epic's other lawsuit against Apple.

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I think if MS is actually asking for the Unreal Engine support, they should side with Apple as they said they only want Epic to follow ToS and the account termination will be halted. It's Epic, and Epic only the ones that are putting into risk UE developers. Microsoft and other Epic's clients should press them to do what they need to keep its accounts active and stop playing the martyr. In fact, MS would gain some points in Apple's eyes if they do it and would serve them in the future negotiating about xCloud. Siding Epic in this "epic joke" would do the opposite IMO.

 

[Scottoest]

So by your standards trump is a fucking erudite. Gotcha 👌🏻

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Don't really care about this particular food fight, nor do I think building a company automatically makes you a genius in all things, but Trump 100% didn't build a company out of his garage. In fact people have estimated he'd probably be worth more money today if he just took the money his daddy gave him, and put it in an index fund.

 

[Aureon]

Tell us what you think about our billionaire president that's risen to the highest rank in the United States.

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So by your standards trump is a fucking erudite. Gotcha 👌🏻

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Trump didn't build shit, Trump inherited it and, adjusting for stock market value, squandered the family fortune

And i fully subscribe to the creed of No Good Billionaries, but Exceptionally Stupid really isn't a defensible take on, of all goddamn people, Tim Sweeney

Arrogant, overreaching, impractical, detached, sure

 

[Ahuitzotl]

Can you point to examples in this thread of people defending those conversations? It possible they exist, but 99% of the posts against Apple have almost nothing to do with Epic other than it being the conduit to make anticompetive legal argument. Epic is giant corporations that has made dubious decisions in general and ridiculous decisions in particular to this case. It doesn't change the fact the Apple is exploiting its market share advantage.

Somewhat related, I had to have a conversation with my 9 year old on anti-trust, duopoly, and regulation because of #freefortnite.

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I doubt I could find any in this thread specifically as most people are talking about Apple going overboard and affecting developers.I posted that after reading tweets on this issue and more specifically comments in the OP tweet, honestly I should of posted this in the Apple fires back in court thread.

 

[FancyPants]

they already took the game off the store, is that not enough?

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They broke the TOS and is refusing to mend Fortnite, which is still playable by everyone that already downloaded it, by removing the new payment option. Removing them from the dev tools is the only way Apple can punish this.

 

[KingParappa]

I don't see how the Fortnite issue has to do with dev tools. There's already precedent with companies entangled in a legal battle on one issue but continuing to be partners on other things. When Apple sued Samsung and took them to court over phone design issues, Samsung didn't retaliate and stopped producing screens for iPhones or stopped supplying RAM chips. The Fortnite iOS conflict doesn't justify this type of retaliation IMO. It just seems childish to me. Specially when it has the potential to impact other devs and even Apple themselves in the long run with certain games just not being available on their platform.

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the developer tools where used to break the og ToS. I think that's against the dev tools ToS. It's in one of those Hoeg law videos. I might be mistaken tho.

 

[Deleted member 46804]

the developer tools where used to break the og ToS. I think that's against the dev tools ToS. It's in one of those Hoeg law videos. I might be mistaken tho.

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Then they might as well have suspended the dev tools ages ago because I'm sure other developers have used the tools to also break the terms of service.

 

[etta]

Watch Apple block Xbox controllers from being used with Apple devices now.

They've made it plenty clear they got the biggest fists in the room and anyone who goes against them should pack their bags.

 

[newmoneytrash]

So by your standards trump is a fucking erudite. Gotcha 👌🏻

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don't do this

 

[Samiya]

if you don't see anything wrong with Apple blocking the Apple SDK for UE, then your hate for Epic is blinding you to an irrational degree.

 

[Deleted member 2620]

as would be the case with any corporation this size I find it hard to believe that any of the involved parties will be actually impacted to the point that I could give a shit, but it sure would be great if I could install whatever software I want to on whatever hardware I buy

 

[Hu3]

Trump didn't build shit, Trump inherited it and, adjusting for stock market value, squandered the family fortune

And i fully subscribe to the creed of No Good Billionaries, but Exceptionally Stupid really isn't a defensible take on, of all goddamn people, Tim Sweeney

Arrogant, overreaching, impractical, detached, sure

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The point is not to build. The point is that you could be a genius in science and mathematics but lack the social awareness and skills for business lingo.

 

[Frost]

Epic has created a new low, they did what they did on purpose and even worse had a lot prepared for that moment. Microsoft is just pissed because of the xCloud thing (which is completely logical, no one want a rival with its best weapon announcing on your shop, i accept that even if i also want xCloud on iOS)

 

[Deleted member 3758]

…

 

[Protome]

Uuuh... no?


Emphasis not mine.

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Ah my bad, I assumed "making sweetheart deals with some but not others" would fall under it.

if you don't see anything wrong with Apple blocking the Apple SDK for UE, then your hate for Epic is blinding you to an irrational degree.

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If you don't see how Epic could have avoided having their account closed by not violating the rules they were happy to abide by for years for a PR stunt then your hate for Apple is blinding you to an irrational degree.
Apple are in the wrong on IAP cuts but on this? This is on Epic.

 

[Aureon]

The point is not to build. The point is that you could be a genius in science and mathematics but lack the social awareness and skills for business lingo.

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The guy is the CEO of a 17b company, and has been steering it successfully for thirty years.
If nothing else, practice would have kicked in at some point - especially since Epic has made pretty savvy decisions in the last few years, current debacle notwithstanding

If you don't see how Epic could have avoided having their account closed by not violating the rules they were happy to abide by for years for a PR stunt then your hate for Apple is blinding you to an irrational degree.
Apple are in the wrong on IAP cuts but on this? This is on Epic.

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The entire point is that Apple controls "infrastructure" - that it, it has monopoly on vital tools for a specific market - that Epic is claiming, not without merit, that cutting off access to said tools for unrelated matters is abuse of dominant position.

Remember, Apple was baited into doing this.
Epic wanted to demostrate how Apple has way too much control over a large market, and it got a shiny new example just by asking.

 

[ibu]

They actually need to do what they are doing because if they don't do it they are proving that there are no consequences of breaking ToS.

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bingo!

 

[7thFloor]

So by your standards trump is a fucking erudite. Gotcha 👌🏻

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Trump was born rich, blatantly bad faith retort

 

[Damn Silly]

I will say, having caught up with this thread, I'm fine with banning analogies from now on

 

[Hu3]

Trump was born rich, blatantly bad faith retort

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no body is creating a retort here, and again not my point. You could be a genius at something and not good at a different task.

 

[Nzyme32]

The entire point is that Apple controls "infrastructure" - that it, it has monopoly on vital tools for a specific market - that Epic is claiming, not without merit, that cutting off access to said tools for unrelated matters is abuse of dominant position.

Remember, Apple was baited into doing this.
Epic wanted to demostrate how Apple has way too much control over a large market, and it got a shiny new example just by asking.

Click to shrink...

Apple wasn't "baited into this", they had pre-warning and knew what their options were, and acted as they would in this situation (and have done before).

The point being raised by Protome is still absolutely valid - Epic are in an entirely premeditated and avoidable situation. They planned it, knew it would have this affect if they did not desist or reverse their payment update in the game, and that UE / Epic dev ability would come under disrepute / restriction. They knew it would affect devs, users and so on. They did it anyway, for their own purposes, just as they did to the detriment of Fortnite mobile players, and their essential weaponisation of players continuously as part of media campaign, as if Epic is some kind of heroic company.

Both companies have in one way or another abused their positions to some degree. These are absurdly large corporations fighting for more billions of dollars, in an argument that is between them, and shouldn't have dragged users nor innocent devs (their clients) into their own mess.

 

[CthulhuSars]

Epic should have had a separate dev account for the unreal engine. This is all on epic for putting everything on one account and breaking TOS to have a pissing contest with Apple.

 

[Incubuster]

I haven't bought Epic's argument from day one. Yeah the 30% cut is massive and should be reduced by all store providers. But trying to use your popularity and influence while circumventing their system for your own microtransactions is going to the reason this case blows up in Epic's face.

 

[Onebadlion]

I continue not to particularly like either company in this fight, though it's pretty obvious that Epic knew exactly what they were doing in trying to force Apple's hand.

Microsoft in this case are just representing their own interests, as they rely on the UE Apple SDK. I imagine they aren't happy with Epic essentially holding them as hostages, via their reliance on Unreal Engine.

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They all are. Every party involved in this is acting in the best interests of their pockets.

Apple have always been a petty vindictive company though.

 

[Cipherr]

Actually laughed out loud several times while reading this thread. Jesus H Christ.

We really need Google to get involved more to reel in those guys and then we will have a serious stew going. Lets just embrace it.

 

[gl0w]

Keep it up Apple

 

[Aureon]

Apple wasn't "baited into this", they had pre-warning and knew what their options were, and acted as they would in this situation (and have done before).

The point being raised by Protome is still absolutely valid - Epic are in an entirely premeditated and avoidable situation. They planned it, knew it would have this affect if they did not desist or reverse their payment update in the game, and that UE / Epic dev ability would come under disrepute / restriction. They knew it would affect devs, users and so on. They did it anyway, for their own purposes, just as they did to the detriment of Fortnite mobile players, and their essential weaponisation of players continuously as part of media campaign, as if Epic is some kind of heroic company.

Both companies have in one way or another abused their positions to some degree. These are absurdly large corporations fighting for more billions of dollars, in an argument that is between them, and shouldn't have dragged users nor innocent devs (their clients) into their own mess.

Click to shrink...

Apple is over a hundred times the size of Epic.
Apple doesn't inherently HAVE to ban dev tools for UE games due to a Fornite publishing issue, it has plenty of tools to unlist Fortnite from the store

The issue Epic is raising is that Apple is making infrastructure decisions that affect large swathes of people, and should be regulated as such.
And they're goddamn right, whatever your stance is on the 30% cut issue, Apple - or any private entity - should not have so much unchecked power with discretionary enforcement over such a large market.

 

[Damaniel]

It's not a choice, it's a consequence of a contractual obligation.

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It's a contractual obligation which is completely non-negotiable, and where the terms can be changed at any time with no options for recourse other than 'just go elsewhere' - except there is no elsewhere. Piss off Apple and Google somehow, and you're completely fucked. Refuse to accept their terms, now and forever, regardless of how those terms may change down the road? You're still fucked. At least you can still sideload on most Android devices - for now.

I really wish some company other than Epic was suing Apple - they're doing it for the wrong reasons. That being said, Apple is responding with a level of retaliation which does nothing but to cement the two mobile app stores as the anti-trust engaging duopoly that they are, and hopefully a government not run by 100% pro-big business stooges will actually look at this and decide to do something about it.

Oh, and fuck Epic. Hopefully Fortnite stays off the app store forever. Also, fuck Apple for dragging in hundreds of other app developers as hostages.

 

[Prine]

This is more about Unreal Engine support than Fortnight fight

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.

 

[Deleted member 35987]

It's always good to see people Advocate absconding responsibility because it doesn't fit their personal narrative

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Nonsensical.

 

[Prine]

Phil's statement hasn't got anything to do with Epics Fortnite shenanigans. It's solely about Unreal which they're major consumers of, along with many other Devs.

 

[EloKa]

Apple doesn't inherently HAVE to ban dev tools for UE games due to a Fornite publishing issue, it has plenty of tools to unlist Fortnite from the store

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Could you explain how this is supposed to work? We know that Epic uses a single Developer account for their own games (Fortnite) AND for their Unreal Engine and this account might get "banned" because Epic breached its contract with Fortnite. Restricting access to the Unreal Engine is some kind of collateral damage because the UE development is tied to account which was used for the Fortnite infringement.

How do you "ban half an account"? This would have been a totally different story if Epic would have used 2 seperate accounts for its 2 seperate businesses.

 

[Nzyme32]

Apple is over a hundred times the size of Epic.
Apple doesn't inherently HAVE to ban dev tools for UE games due to a Fornite publishing issue, it has plenty of tools to unlist Fortnite from the store

The issue Epic is raising is that Apple is making infrastructure decisions that affect large swathes of people, and should be regulated as such.
And they're goddamn right, whatever your stance is on the 30% cut issue, Apple - or any private entity - should not have so much unchecked power with discretionary enforcement over such a large market.

Click to shrink...

No one is disputing the size differential of the companies - it is irrelevant to this specific point we are discussing (Protome's comment)
Apple doesn't have to inherently do anything, but it's terms are clear in their TOS, and Epic wilfully violated it when it decided as it didn't want to follow it.

Epic's argument now that Apple say they will follow through is irrelevant since Epic are already making their case. Apple indeed has full control of that ecosystem, but Epic agreed to the terms, including that Apple can cut them off. Epic have been given the choice in how to respond, and they've chosen to add massive risk to their clients. Apple themselves agree to reinstate if they reverse the payment update - something they could trivially do, having proved their point and set their case, but refuse to do anyway. Being forced into this situation is indeed more fodder for Epic to utilise in their case.

Does it absolutely have to have massive ill effect to their clients (devs and users) - no. But they want that, to add to the drama and use the case as a marketing tool for their Epic Store once they can get it on iOS. This seems to be the underpinning direction of Epic, that has defined how they designed putting together and progressing with this case.

 

[cmdrshepard]

The amount of people wanting this to be MS supporting Epic over their Fornite battle are hilariously obvious. This is not that. This is MS supporting Epics request to maintain Unreal Engine which is Apple is essentially killing on iOS by denying Epic developer access and will kill a whole range of games on the platform. Apple overreacted to Epic's stupid move and it will impact quite significantly on developers using the engine on the platform, inlcuding MS, so it is not surprising to see them come out in support. Reading anything more into it - that it is supporting their Fortnite battle is just obscuring bullshit.

 

[dep9000]

Apple is the biggest company in the world. They don't need anyones help. They'll defend their policy and they won't give a shit about Fortnite.

Which is the frightening aspect of all of this. Whatever Epic does, I don't think Apple will move even a centimeter.

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Until the courts force them. Or at least hopefully that's what happens. Apple will at least get their hand slapped for this retaliatory bullshit

 

[Aureon]

No one is disputing the size differential of the companies - it is irrelevant to this specific point we are discussing (Protome's comment)
Apple doesn't have to inherently do anything, but it's terms are clear in their TOS, and Epic wilfully violated it when it decided as it didn't want to follow it.

Epic's argument now that Apple say they will follow through is irrelevant since Epic are already making their case. Apple indeed has full control of that ecosystem, but Epic agreed to the terms, including that Apple can cut them off. Epic have been given the choice in how to respond, and they've chosen to add massive risk to their clients. Apple themselves agree to reinstate if they reverse the payment update - something they could trivially do, having proved their point and set their case, but refuse to do anyway. Being forced into this situation is indeed more fodder for Epic to utilise in their case.

Does it absolutely have to have massive ill effect to their clients (devs and users) - no. But they want that, to add to the drama and use the case as a marketing tool for their Epic Store once they can get it on iOS. This seems to be the underpinning direction of Epic, that has defined how they designed putting together and progressing with this case.

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The ill, whatever or not instigated by epic, is still effected by Apple, which absolutely has discretionary power over the issue.

Apple ToS isn't rule of law, much less rule of nature. It hasn't ever been consistently enforced, which is kind of the point here.

The offer to reinstate proves it as such - Apple isn't bound to do anything, and it'll gladly "violate" it's own terms to make the headache go away if the point is conceded.

 

[MarioW]

Could you explain how this is supposed to work? We know that Epic uses a single Developer account for their own games (Fortnite) AND for their Unreal Engine and this account might get "banned" because Epic breached its contract with Fortnite. Restricting access to the Unreal Engine is some kind of collateral damage because the UE development is tied to account which was used for the Fortnite infringement.

How do you "ban half an account"? This would have been a totally different story if Epic would have used 2 seperate accounts for its 2 seperate businesses.

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This is really the key right here. Epic has all their eggs in one basket. And the TOS are clear with respect to what the ramifications of breaking them are.

If anything, Apple is being more gracious than they have been with some other developers. They've banned some dev accounts pretty much as soon as they broke the TOS. They are at least giving Epic an opportunity to remedy, even if they have given them a deadline.

Even if their dev account is cut off though, there won't be immediate ramifications for Unreal developers. Unreal games won't be pulled off the App Store. It just may be harder to update games successfully in the future if there is an OS incompatibility introduced. Hopefully, all this can be resolved before there starts being a tangible impact.

As much as I'd like the Apple rev share (and every platform rev share) to shift in favour of developers, or at least Apple not have such a terrible policy with respect to refunds coming entirely out of the devs pocket including Apples original share, I'm on team "Epic brought this on themselves (and Unreal mobile devs) and can also fix things when ever they want to by reversing the server setting change".

 

[Nzyme32]

The ill, whatever or not instigated by epic, is still effected by Apple, which absolutely has discretionary power over the issue.

Apple ToS isn't rule of law, much less rule of nature. It hasn't ever been consistently enforced, which is kind of the point here.

The offer to reinstate proves it as such - Apple isn't bound to do anything, and it'll gladly "violate" it's own terms to make the headache go away if the point is conceded.

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Again agree, but these are Epics clients (devs and users). Epic has to choose how to respond to support or protect them. They've chosen to put them at risk, despite the case they are making already having plenty of evidence to support their claims. Protomes comment is absolutely valid to me.

 

[cmdrshepard]

As much as I'd like the Apple rev share (and every platform rev share) to shift in favour of developers, or at least Apple not have such a terrible policy with respect to refunds coming entirely out of the devs pocket including Apples original share, I'm on team "Epic brought this on themselves (and Unreal mobile devs) and can also fix things when ever they want to by reversing the server setting change".

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Wait what? When someone requests a refund, Apple takes the full price paid by the consumer including the 30% they took and withheld from the developer? WTF? Does this then come back to the developer eventually or is it just tough shit they requested a refund and we are essentially taking 30% just because?

 

[Antrax]

I continue not to particularly like either company in this fight, though it's pretty obvious that Epic knew exactly what they were doing in trying to force Apple's hand.

Microsoft in this case are just representing their own interests, as they rely on the UE Apple SDK. I imagine they aren't happy with Epic essentially holding them as hostages, via their reliance on Unreal Engine.

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The hostage analogy is exactly what I thought of this. Epic is using UE devs as their hostages in this fight, and Apple's response is "we don't negotiate with terrorists" and they're going to shoot through the hostages to hit Epic. Microsoft is just a bystander lobbying for the hostages, not the hostage takers or the aggro SWAT team that wants to shoot.

 

[Aureon]

As much as I'd like the Apple rev share (and every platform rev share) to shift in favour of developers, or at least Apple not have such a terrible policy with respect to refunds coming entirely out of the devs pocket including Apples original share,

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Wait what? When someone requests a refund, Apple takes the full price paid by the consumer including the 30% they took and withheld from the developer? WTF? Does this then come back to the developer eventually or is it just tough shit they requested a refund and we are essentially taking 30% just because?

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Much as i loathe the Apple\Google duopoly on mobile software gatekeeping, the apple refund thing is fake news.
Some developer mistakenly understood receipts, and the thing had gone viral before truth could fix it.

Also, the whole "Epic brought this upon themselves" is yeah, that's by design.
The point is shining a spotlight on just how much power Apple has over mobile developers, and have regulators answer the question if that is to the benefit or detriment of the industry as a whole, including both suppliers and consumers.

And i can't really think of a sane reason to answer "Yes" to that, especially after Tim Cook lied to congress recently.

 

[Drksage]

I don't see this as Microsoft Supporting Epic. Anyone that thinks that should really step back and look at the bigger picture. This is more in the line of "Unreal engine is an important tool for mobile development"

 

[MarioW]

Wait what? When someone requests a refund, Apple takes the full price paid by the consumer including the 30% they took and withheld from the developer? WTF? Does this then come back to the developer eventually or is it just tough shit they requested a refund and we are essentially taking 30% just because?

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Yes, the consumer gets 100% of their purchase back which is funded completely by the developer. So, on a $1 refund, the developer originally got 70c, but has a $1 deduction on your App Store revenues.

Much as i loathe the Apple\Google duopoly on mobile software gatekeeping, the apple refund thing is fake news.

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Er, what? No it isn't. It has been like that for the life of the App Store.

 

[Aureon]

Again agree, but these are Epics clients (devs and users). Epic has to choose how to respond to support or protect them. They've chosen to put them at risk, despite the case they are making already having plenty of evidence to support their claims. Protomes comment is absolutely valid to me.

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Here's what you're not considering:
Epic's fight for saner App\Play Store policies and pay cuts is absolutely in the interest of all it's affected consumers.
I work for a (very small) UE4 mobile developer, and we're absolutely on the side of Epic on this.

And it's Apple, not Epic, who is consistently and constantly an headache to work with, with heavy fees and cuts on everything, opaque and inconsistently enforced policies, and whatnot

As store holders, they do a TERRIBLE job, and even as platform holders they suck - starting from the need of Apple hardware to compile for iOS legally, which is honestly vessatory.

 

[Aureon]

Yes, the consumer gets 100% of their purchase back which is funded completely by the developer. So, on a $1 refund, the developer originally got 70c, but has a $1 deduction on your App Store revenues.


Er, what? No it isn't. It has been like that for the life of the App Store.

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Apple Does Not Keep the 30% Commission On a Refund [Update] - Slashdot

From reading the Apple developer forums and looking at the agreements...Apple has the right to keep its 30%, but can expect the developer to refund the full cost. So, if I purchase an app for $1 the developer gets $.70 and Apple gets $.30. If I request and am granted a refund Apple can charge...

news.slashdot.org

They technically have the right to, but i know my fair share of mobile devs and i've never heard of it actually being enforced.

The right being there is an issue, and it speaks of the usual pattern of vessatory conditions with inconsistent enforcement, but it's not common policy