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Oct 27, 2017
6,888
Intel can't catch a break.

www.bloomberg.com

Microsoft Designing Its Own Chips for Servers, Surface PCs

Microsoft Corp. is working on in-house processor designs for use in server computers that run the company’s cloud services, adding to an industrywide effort to reduce reliance on Intel Corp.’s chip technology.The world’s largest software maker is using Arm Ltd. designs to produce a processor...

Microsoft Corp. is working on in-house processor designs for use in server computers that run the company's cloud services, adding to an industrywide effort to reduce reliance on Intel Corp.'s chip technology, Bloomberg News reports.
 

Theswweet

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,404
California
AMD have started looking into ARM too, yeah? It feels like in 5 years, unless something changes, we're going to see a shift even on desktop to ARM.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
Since nvidia bought ARM, I think they will start cranking out combo ARM/geforce PCs and laptops soon.
 

Obi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
601
Nice! Now lets get an ARM Surface Go. Small, light, long battery life, fast(?)
 

Maximo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,159
Intel dragged their feet for too long. An ARM Surface sounds way more appealing.
 

meph

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
996
This is good and bad for consumers. It's good in that it should spur competition, particularly against Intel, but it's bad in that everyone developing proprietary tech is likely to force people to stay within particular ecosystems. So it will be more competitive when you are choosing a device, but once you choose, you become locked in.
 

criteriondog

I like the chili style
Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,069
Can someone explain like I'm 5 this whole Intel thing and being behind and how arm is a lot better/the future?
I know the Apple M1's are extremely good especially compared to the Intel processors, but how did such a wide power/efficiency gap happen?
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,349
As somebody who has had the resoundingly disappointing experience of using a Surface RT and a Lumia 950, I really hope MS get it right this time when it comes to running their software on ARM.
 

Locuza

Member
Mar 6, 2018
380
AMD have started looking into ARM too, yeah? It feels like in 5 years, unless something changes, we're going to see a shift even on desktop to ARM.
AMD did develop a custom ARM core called K12 (14nm) alongside the next generation x86 core Zen (14nm).
However the ARM software ecosystem was not advancing as fast as needed and based on market potential AMD cancelled the K12 effort and only focused on the x86 Zen core.
Later we got Zen2 under 7nm and Zen3 is a new micorarchitecture which is quite different from Zen1/2 designs.

Developing a new ARM core wouldn't be a from scratch effort for AMD but it would take again a lot of energy and cost.
They would need a very strong perspective and roadmap because it's both, a race and a long-run marathon.
Companies like AMD need extremly competetive products coupled with an attractive cost strcture so other companies are not motivated to develop their own ones.

That's something ARM achieved.
In the past Qualcomm and Samsung did built custom ARM cores but the cost for doing that has to pay off and ARM's own designs made such major strides forward that they both stopped developing their own cores and are largely using licensed vanilla cores from ARM.


However it's hard to tell how things will develop, there are just too much uncertainties.
How competetive will be the own ARM designs of Amazon, MS and other companies?
Can AMD beat them by a significant margin?
How strong will be Intel's come back in a few years?
Will Nvidia's acquisition of ARM get the greenlight and how will that turn out?

In a decade we may also have very high performance RISC-V cores, which is an open ISA and can be used without license costs from everyone.
 

The Lord of Cereal

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Jan 9, 2020
9,616
Makes sense honestly. I know it's practically a meme at this point, but ARM really is the future for computing. I have no doubts that the next gen Xbox consoles will absolutely be ARM based systems tbh
 

SRTtoZ

Member
Dec 8, 2017
4,624
Maybe ARM is the future but right now the Surface products that use them like the Surface Pro X are inferior to the ones that run x86 like the SP7.
 

ginge

Member
Jul 23, 2020
244
AMD have started looking into ARM too, yeah? It feels like in 5 years, unless something changes, we're going to see a shift even on desktop to ARM.
AMD was developing their K12 architecture, which is something that's the best of both worlds of x86 and ARM. It translates the x86 instructions in hardware to ARM instructions, so there is no appreciable performance loss when running x86 apps, but you get the all the benefits of ARM. They stopped development on K12 when it got really bad for them back in 2015, before ryzen came out. Only intel and AMD, who both have rights to make x86 processors have the ability to do this in hardware x86 instruction translation as adding this capability to hardware effectively constitutes making an x86 cpu, which Intel and AMD are uniquely positioned to do. All the other translation solutions, including apples, run in a software layer so as not to infringe upon the x86 license.

AMD have said that they see a future for the K12 architecture, so who knows if they have that lying in wait for some time in the future.
 

ginge

Member
Jul 23, 2020
244
Maybe ARM is the future but right now the Surface products that use them like the Surface Pro X are inferior to the ones that run x86 like the SP7.

Its because the ARM chips used in the surface pro x are literally sooped up cell phone ARM chips, because qualcomm doesn't have any chip designs that are specifically made for a laptop form factor. Right now it would be the equivalent of literally taking a ARM chip from an iPhone and putting it in a macbook pro, while the ARM based macbooks do use core technology that is also used in the iPhone they are not drop in replacements for one another.
 

Hasney

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,596
As somebody who has had the resoundingly disappointing experience of using a Surface RT and a Lumia 950, I really hope MS get it right this time when it comes to running their software on ARM.

The problem is that they aimed ARM at the low end that time. Now they're looking at doing their own chip, I'm sure it'll be like Apple and aim high end.
 

MTR

Member
Oct 27, 2017
496
hopefully my dream of Mac gaming will finally be realised. My girlfriends MacBook Air m1 destroys Wow, the future looks bright.
 

slider

Member
Nov 10, 2020
2,710
I've got a weird sort of emotional attachment to ARM. So I'm glad to see their model working so well and being as prevalent as they are.

I owned an Acorn Archimedes and when ARM was spun off, I bought some shares (if I remember correctly they were at six pence each!). Can't remember the exact time line but there was a transition from Acorn Risc Machines to Advanced Risc Machines the price skyrocketed.

Robin Saxby and StrongArm (with DEC) are the only other things I remember. I should really have a Google for a trip down memory lane.
 

tyfon

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,680
Norway
Not aimed at Microsoft or ARM really, but I feel we're starting to get to the end of open computer era that have lasted since the 80s.
All companies are back to making their own chips and systems like the old UNIX mastodons.
 

sedael

Member
Oct 16, 2020
853
Microsoft already does a decent bit of its own hardware design for other things so this seemed more or less inevitable with how much ARM is catching on other places too. Its gonna be fun to see how much of a hit x86 really takes long term.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,349
The problem is that they aimed ARM at the low end that time. Now they're looking at doing their own chip, I'm sure it'll be like Apple and aim high end.
The issue I had was the lack of software. The Lumia 950 XL was a great bit of hardware, and the continuum dock was a brilliant concept with so much potential. I just couldn't *do* anything. The OS was a buggy POS and there were no apps.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
So, Microsoft making ARM server chips makes sense, since their biggest competitor in the cloud computing space, Amazon, is making their own ARM server chips as well, and Microsoft would want a comparable service for Azure. Meanwhile, the Surface chips are interesting, but until Microsoft gets the Windows 10 for ARM experience in order, they'll be entirely academic. Right now, the impression I get is that Windows 10 for ARM isn't really much use beyond web browsing and basic office work, and you can do both on any given phones or tablets for cheaper.
Can someone explain like I'm 5 this whole Intel thing and being behind and how arm is a lot better/the future?
I know the Apple M1's are extremely good especially compared to the Intel processors, but how did such a wide power/efficiency gap happen?
Basically, the short version is that Intel owns their own chip fabrication facilities, and they've been stuck on iterating on the same 14nm process node for the past six years while struggling to get their next generation of silicon manufacturing reliably producing chips. Meanwhile, their competitors, most notably TSMC, have caught up, and Intel's response has been to throw more power at the problem. This is fine for desktops (to a point), but it not great for laptops. Now, Intel's still stuck on 14nm, while AMD's Ryzen is using the now very mature TSMC 7nm process to attack Intel at all levels of x86. Meanwhile, Apple, with access to TSMC 5nm and the rights to customise ARM's already excellent power efficiency, is rolling out chips that are state of the art at low power draws. The problem is that the jury remains out on how this can extend to higher power chips. Which brings me neatly to...
who wants to bet next gen consoles will be ARM based..
This is where I'd be substantially less confident. AMD has access to TSMC's knowhow, and will likely be riding Apple's coat-tails to higher and higher power efficiency. At the power draws both newgen consoles work for, there's practically nothing ARM can do that x86 can do better. Sticking with x86 also has the side benefit for making maintaining software compatibility substantially easier.

This is also where I'd caution against predicting ARM for desktops being an inevitability (outside of Apple). The above does also apply to desktop CPUs. Intel's problems are nothing to do with x86 and everything to do with Intel.
 

criteriondog

I like the chili style
Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,069
So, Microsoft making ARM server chips makes sense, since their biggest competitor in the cloud computing space, Amazon, is making their own ARM server chips as well, and Microsoft would want a comparable service for Azure. Meanwhile, the Surface chips are interesting, but until Microsoft gets the Windows 10 for ARM experience in order, they'll be entirely academic. Right now, the impression I get is that Windows 10 for ARM isn't really much use beyond web browsing and basic office work, and you can do both on any given phones or tablets for cheaper.

Basically, the short version is that Intel owns their own chip fabrication facilities, and they've been stuck on iterating on the same 14nm process node for the past six years while struggling to get their next generation of silicon manufacturing reliably producing chips. Meanwhile, their competitors, most notably TSMC, have caught up, and Intel's response has been to throw more power at the problem. This is fine for desktops (to a point), but it not great for laptops. Now, Intel's still stuck on 14nm, while AMD's Ryzen is using the now very mature TSMC 7nm process to attack Intel at all levels of x86. Meanwhile, Apple, with access to TSMC 5nm and the rights to customise ARM's already excellent power efficiency, is rolling out chips that are state of the art at low power draws. The problem is that the jury remains out on how this can extend to higher power chips. Which brings me neatly to...

This is where I'd be substantially less confident. AMD has access to TSMC's knowhow, and will likely be riding Apple's coat-tails to higher and higher power efficiency. At the power draws both newgen consoles work for, there's practically nothing ARM can do that x86 can do better. Sticking with x86 also has the side benefit for making maintaining software compatibility substantially easier.

This is also where I'd caution against predicting ARM for desktops being an inevitability (outside of Apple). The above does also apply to desktop CPUs. Intel's problems are nothing to do with x86 and everything to do with Intel.
Thank you very much for the response. This makes sense to me. I wonder why Intel is struggling so much past moving from 14nm especially when their competitors are on 7 or even 5nm chips.