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Michael Jackson died 10 years ago today (See Staff Post)
- Thread starter ThisThingIsUseful
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damn time flies quick. as another poster said my feelings for him have been a rollercoaster. don't know what to think. his music is timeless, a true gift for mankind. but also by a possible child rapist. damn it.
The Jackson estate isn't it? Unless someone corrects me.
I was always fascinated by the public perception heel turn with Jackson.
Before his death he was the butt of many jokes about him being a child molester. It was like widely known he was a creepy and strange dude.
He dies, and all of a sudden he is some saint/icon. It took that HBO documentary to remind everyone all the weird shit he did.
That being said, I think its very possible to separate the art from the artist. The music rules.
Before his death he was the butt of many jokes about him being a child molester. It was like widely known he was a creepy and strange dude.
He dies, and all of a sudden he is some saint/icon. It took that HBO documentary to remind everyone all the weird shit he did.
That being said, I think its very possible to separate the art from the artist. The music rules.
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In the very post you quoted I said "This is a matter for the courts to decide, not you nor the person you're replying to" and then proceed to lament how he will never face these allegations. I never said the accusations were false.
It's hilarious that after specifically saying Michael Jackson wasn't another OJ case, you immediately pointed to Jackson's acquittal as proof that he did nothing wrong. I seem to remember OJ, quite famously, being acquitted of his charges too.
Bowie's death stinged the most for me. I suppose it's probably because I was always more into Bowie's music than MJ's (or Prince's, for that matter, another huge loss that same year) but Bowie's death was the one that really felt seismic to me.
I think Jackson is probably the figure who'll you hear "Separate the art from the artist" most. His music is too mainstream (even if you don't listen to it anymore it'll pop up in movies old and new) and well liked by either yourself, or friends and family you hold dear for a good long while, it's too difficult to accept that you're listening to a probable abuser so you just tune that part out.
I remember the day very very clearly. It was oddly quiet outside and still. Went to ONTD to check the news and the web literally broke that day lol I remeber THOUSANDS of pages of comments on the ONTD post - I was on there for like 5 days straight.
I remember first reading about him being rushed to the hospital on bungie.net. that day. His death was a shock.
The weird thing was that it took his death for MTV to stop airing Reality TV as they began playing his music videos as a tribute.
RIP
The weird thing was that it took his death for MTV to stop airing Reality TV as they began playing his music videos as a tribute.
RIP
his album dropping (a great album at that) then a week or two later dying was a thing
leonard cohen did the same thing in the same year
Oh man that was weird and eerie. I even remember thinking when I heard the news, but he can't have died, he just released a new album!
Perfectly normal to have a bedroom alarm to alert you when people are coming up the stairs right
Fwiw, Bowie is another one. It's just not as big news as Jackson.
Both are off my playlist for the same reasons.
You said "are you trying to bait a ban?" in response to someone asking the very fair and relevant question of if that (now banned) poster is calling accusers liars (spoiler: yes he did and was awarded a one week vacation for it).
That has nothing to do with the court of law.
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Both had sex with underage children. It's a simple line that they have both crossed.
His music is one of the greatest ever made, it basically created a style that defines my musical taste even today. But the man was a fucking monster, and doesn't deserve to be celebrated at all. Even if what he had done to those boys, he had done to consenting adults, he'd still be a manipulative, abusive asshole. That he did that shit to children is even worse.
You could perhaps instead defend your position where two cases of pedophilia are "not remotely comparable" instead of "lmao ok dude."
I always wished this song was 100% his because the hook is the best damn part of the song. I know it's Rockwell but still
The courts sentenced the Central Park 5 to a decade of jail time. When new evidence came out, they changed their decision. Why not the same for Jackson? Especially since one of his key witnesses in his trial has come forth to say he was abused, and has a very convincing argument for why he didn't come forth earlier?
Courts do not decide what is the truth.
you know the differences between Bowie and Jackson. there is one dude that built a fucking theme park as a way to coerce children to behave inappropriately with him versus the very toxic, misogynistic groupie culture of the rock music scene of the 60s/70s.
Listening to little Michael singing "Rockin Robin" at this moment.
I only support child MJ at this point.
I only support child MJ at this point.
tbh I admittedly don't know much about allegations against Bowie in that regard and have never really spent time looking too deeply into them. My vague sense of it was at least one or two accounts of him having sex with teenage girls during his 70s tours, which obviously is bad -- sex with someone underage is sex with someone who is underage - but does still strike me as different from the kinds of abuse Jackson was accused. (edit: basically what andymcc said) It does make you wonder how many other rock stars and bands from the 70s are mired in the same shit. I've heard similar about the Rolling Stones. Ringo even has a goddamn song about it!
I don't know. I only brought up Bowie because I found his death shocking!
I don't know. I only brought up Bowie because I found his death shocking!
For people who are on the "reasonable doubt" train, I'll repost what I posted in the Neverland thread.
These things are undisputed
Had sleepovers with young boys
Bought them rings
Seen holding hands like a couple
Had no other romantic partner at that time
gave those kids alcohol
had an alarm system for his room
kept the parents separate
was accused by at least 5 kids of sexual assault
None of that adds to reasonable doubt for me.
These things are undisputed
Had sleepovers with young boys
Bought them rings
Seen holding hands like a couple
Had no other romantic partner at that time
gave those kids alcohol
had an alarm system for his room
kept the parents separate
was accused by at least 5 kids of sexual assault
None of that adds to reasonable doubt for me.
Stolen from reddit:
"Pedophile means attraction to the pre-pubescent, pre-sexual development. Not a defense, he pulled some questionably aged girls in an era that was more lax about that behavior than they should have been, but he wasn't raping infants or fucking people against their will.
Bowie exploited a power dynamic common to rock stars when he shouldn't have, and I think he obviously changed his behavior as he became more of a man. He was a flawed person who grew up to find the great love of his life and raise a healthy family."
User Banned (1 week): Dismissing credible accusations of sexual assault.
I used to condemn MJ when the documentary came out but know I just stay neutral. There are eye-raising inconsistencies on both stories but I tend to side MJ a tiny bit and the reason is the following:
as someone who has gone through his fair share of fucked-up stories on similar topics, I know how INCREDIBLY hard is to speak about that kind of stuff, to any one, single person. let alone put it there for the world to see.
So I feel zero empathy when a guy says "MJ loved when I'd spread my butt cheeks" only to be interrupted by the director saying "CUT!! we have to fix the lights, please repeat that line and remember to look afflicted and please shake your hand, that creates drama"
are they lying? I don't care either way but I wish they get whatever justice they deserve, if they do.
That being said, the docu rubs me the wrong way and made me roll my eyes to the moon and back.
as for MJ, he was, at the very least, a complete asshole. Otherwise you wouldn't have people wanting to destroy you like that.
as someone who has gone through his fair share of fucked-up stories on similar topics, I know how INCREDIBLY hard is to speak about that kind of stuff, to any one, single person. let alone put it there for the world to see.
So I feel zero empathy when a guy says "MJ loved when I'd spread my butt cheeks" only to be interrupted by the director saying "CUT!! we have to fix the lights, please repeat that line and remember to look afflicted and please shake your hand, that creates drama"
are they lying? I don't care either way but I wish they get whatever justice they deserve, if they do.
That being said, the docu rubs me the wrong way and made me roll my eyes to the moon and back.
as for MJ, he was, at the very least, a complete asshole. Otherwise you wouldn't have people wanting to destroy you like that.
He paid some of the victims, to avoid trial for abusing them, that is not discutible, he raped kids, the man some people defend.
Pretty fucked up that because a director is doing director things you'd feel no empathy for a person who was a victim of rape as a fucking child.
You're basically saying you think they are lying but aren't saying it. You don't believe they are telling the truth
I personally have decided to separate art and artist.
There's so many different attributes I had to look at for this:
1) Money I use towards the art supports an artist who has done something I disagree with (disagree is a soft word in the case, outright disgust is more accurate for this specific case).
2) But it also goes to support entire economies with many other people / employees receiving that money.
3) Could I enjoy the art and disassociate it from my feelings or thoughts on the artist?
So while I think it looks accurate that Michael Jackson had at the very least inappropriate physical interaction with children, at the very worst downright rape - I've decided to disassociate him from his art.
Thriller was my first piece of music ever (tape deck - lol dates me). I still love listening to that album every so often.
There's so many different attributes I had to look at for this:
1) Money I use towards the art supports an artist who has done something I disagree with (disagree is a soft word in the case, outright disgust is more accurate for this specific case).
2) But it also goes to support entire economies with many other people / employees receiving that money.
3) Could I enjoy the art and disassociate it from my feelings or thoughts on the artist?
So while I think it looks accurate that Michael Jackson had at the very least inappropriate physical interaction with children, at the very worst downright rape - I've decided to disassociate him from his art.
Thriller was my first piece of music ever (tape deck - lol dates me). I still love listening to that album every so often.
I found an old DVD with a Louis Theroux collection on it.
Something I never see talked about is Theroux's documentary in which he chronicles his attempts to get the interview with Jackson but ultimately loses out to Bashir.
My point is that at some point he interviews a British guy who had previously met The Jacksons for an interview when he was like 9. Michael Jackson took his number and kept in touch with it leading to Jackson turning the conversation sexual. The story was reported in the U.K. tabloid 'The Sun' but quickly forgotten with the guy in the documentary seemingly wanting to forgive and forget and reconnect with Jackson in the future.
Seeing this after the Never Land documentary really turned my stomach because of the way it started with phone calls.
I loved Michael Jackson as a kid (was born in '83) and have always thought it was people out for cash but after Never Land and seeing the Theroux documentary I now believe that he was 100% a child sex abuser.
I can no longer stand his music, nevermind enjoy it.
Something I never see talked about is Theroux's documentary in which he chronicles his attempts to get the interview with Jackson but ultimately loses out to Bashir.
My point is that at some point he interviews a British guy who had previously met The Jacksons for an interview when he was like 9. Michael Jackson took his number and kept in touch with it leading to Jackson turning the conversation sexual. The story was reported in the U.K. tabloid 'The Sun' but quickly forgotten with the guy in the documentary seemingly wanting to forgive and forget and reconnect with Jackson in the future.
Seeing this after the Never Land documentary really turned my stomach because of the way it started with phone calls.
I loved Michael Jackson as a kid (was born in '83) and have always thought it was people out for cash but after Never Land and seeing the Theroux documentary I now believe that he was 100% a child sex abuser.
I can no longer stand his music, nevermind enjoy it.
Great artist. I haven't seen the documentary. I probably should watch but it sounds sickening. The evidence seems pretty damning even though it's a tough pill to swallow that this is really what MJ was
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