That's how trade works. It's literally done to take advantage of labour and resources. I don't understand if you're ok with that or not.
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Miami Herald: ‘We are not afraid!’ Cubans take to the streets to demand freedom, food, vaccines
- Thread starter Baron Eyepatch
- Start date
Yes, precisely. My reason for suggesting the embargo and intervention needs to go is the same reason I'm against interference in the elections in Western nations by foreign powers: it grossly undermines self-determination and becomes paternalistic bullshit, like they know what's best for others, when it's usually a ruse for personal political benefit and has nothing to do with the people of the region you're trying to influence.
The embargo was set up with the explicit purpose of trying to starve out the Castro government, which the US opposed because it wasn't their preferred dictator (they backed Fulgencio Batista, after all). That's a determinable fact. No getting around it.
So, if you're advocating against not lifting the embargo first before the government is toppled because of claims that a decades-long act of economic warfare is something that should be downplayed as less important than the actions by the government, congratulations, you're an American imperialist or in favour of American imperialism. Taking such a position means you're looking to ensure that the express purpose of the embargo has been fulfilled, an act of imperialism that has since been re-framed to justify its continuation, whether you consider the re-framing valid or not. That is not encouraging self-determination, because actions taken to achieve this result are still in play. You can consider them not the primary cause all you like, but it should not be there and leaving it in play while suggesting the government should go is fulfilling the dream of US politicians in the 1950s who put that embargo in play. Simple as that.
Again, the US has been involved in the situation since the 1950s, which has had a not-insignificant impact on the Cuban people for the nearly 7 decades since. You cannot treat them as separable because they've been made to be inseparable and there's been plenty of opportunities to separate the two in the past that never happened. If you're unhappy about that, I don't know what to tell you, but trying to "centre the conversation" to not discuss a key component of the conversation can be easily seen as "let's pretend this isn't a thing".
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I'm not. I'm trying to align to what the OP has asked.
That said, the issues here are beyond just the embargo and US intervention. Right now, it's a out the gross mismanagement of the country by the the Cuban government which has led to a collapsed economy, scarce food, and people struggling to be safe from COVID.
The response to their enaction has been a protest. In response, the Cuban government has effectively kidnapped people, murdered them, and have cut off access to media and the internet. Further they are suppressing the protesters with police violence, and breaking into homes to threaten people. That's totally on them - not the 1950s, not the US, but the Cuban government. It's active oppression and violence being done on its own citizens.
So I dunno, this thread has attempted to evolve past some of the agreed upon issues like the embargo to specifically focus and get news about what's happening on the ground. Which has been fucking horrible and shocking.
The fact you want to talk about other things tells us alot. You have Cuban-Americans in here also trying to share their story, and their families issues, but you're snapping back to a discussion worthwhile for another thread (re: American Imperialist and Cuba). It's a fine topic, but not this one.
I'd also go up a few posts and read the shared articles - they are pretty good and frame things decently - and also go back and read some of the other affected ERA folks who are sharing their stories.
Ok that's nice, but these are all band-aids for the real problem which is a communist authoritative regime that needs to be removed. But the people need food and medicine so whatever gets them that fastest I am for. And of course ending the embargo and opening up travel again would be great, exposure to the rest of the world can lead to change.
Good on them to condemn the embargo. Black America has a history of standing with Cuban revolutionaries:
And when Fidel Castro re-visited Harlem in the 90's, when I was a teenager, he was greeted with love and appreciation, which has really stuck with me over the years. That's not to say his regime is perfect but black America and Cuban communism has deep roots of unity. It's time to end the embargo. We could help improve conditions in Cuba immediately.
Black America is clearly is out of touch with what the Cuban people are experiencing and demanding.Good on them to condemn the embargo. Black America has a history of standing with Cuban revolutionaries:
And when Fidel Castro re-visited Harlem in the 90's, when I was a teenager, he was greeted with love and appreciation, which has really stuck with me over the years. That's not to say his regime is perfect but black America and Cuban communism has deep roots of unity. It's time to end the embargo. We could help improve conditions in Cuba immediately.
Most of the people protesting have never experienced life without an embargo.
This does not matter. We have numerous articles explaining that the issues go way beyond the embargo, it's about a dictatorship that has been abusing it's people for years, mismanaging the country's economy, and it's finally reaching a tipping point. At this point, as a Cuban, I genuinely do not trust anyone who is even slightly opting to side with the dictatorship.
Think, Era poster, think! What could possibly link black America with the Cuba revolution in such a way to unite the two disparate communities over a lengthy period of time?
Saying "Black America is out of touch with/doesn't understand ________", where blank includes examples of state oppression, is one hell of a wild take. You may want to reconsider such a stance.
User Banned (3 Days) Inflammatory rhetoric. While the statement from BLM is not above critique, it is important not to use such a post to denigrate all of Black America as regime sympathizers.
Fuck no, I won't reconsider it. They're literally siding with an oppressive dictatorship state that has been abusing and torturing their people for years. They're either stupid, or hypocrites.
I've thought about it. See above.
Are you serious? This isn't whether America is blame free... But again, it's not about you America - it's about Cuban people. Yeesh.
As had been says many times, the embargo should be lifted.
But I'm curious, how did the embargo force the Cuban government to:
* Limit freedom of speech and expression
* Do away with the free press
* Persecute people for their religious beliefs
* Persecute people for their sexual orientation
* End fair and open elections
I'd love to hear the answer to that. That's the issue with focusing solely on the embargo. The BLM statement is terribly tone deaf.
But I'm curious, how did the embargo force the Cuban government to:
* Limit freedom of speech and expression
* Do away with the free press
* Persecute people for their religious beliefs
* Persecute people for their sexual orientation
* End fair and open elections
I'd love to hear the answer to that. That's the issue with focusing solely on the embargo. The BLM statement is terribly tone deaf.
OP
OP
My mom says boy was she lucky that she got out of there when she did despite many of the good memories she's made living in Havana
Being friends with Malcolm X and being adored in Harlem doesn't absolve him from being a piece of shit
Also that BLM post is going to be a hard no for me dogggg
Also that BLM post is going to be a hard no for me dogggg
Fidel had many friends. He was also friends with Francisco Franco. Do you think they shared governance tips?
What a sad statement from that account. They are so uninformed and propagandized that they can't see the humanity and agency of the people protesting the repressive Cuban government. It can't even be mentioned.
Human beings' suffering silenced....human beings dehumanized...and for what?
A disturbing message -- an intentional silence -- that I hope nobody associates with an important movement against state violence and racial justice. One account run by someone maliciously ignorant -- or simply a red fascist -- does not reflect the values of a broad movement.
What a sad statement from that account. They are so uninformed and propagandized that they can't see the humanity and agency of the people protesting the repressive Cuban government. It can't even be mentioned.
Human beings' suffering silenced....human beings dehumanized...and for what?
A disturbing message -- an intentional silence -- that I hope nobody associates with an important movement against state violence and racial justice. One account run by someone maliciously ignorant -- or simply a red fascist -- does not reflect the values of a broad movement.
Best of luck to the Cuban people as someone from a country that is also going through political unrest. I hope they change their government to what they need.
Can't help but notice the US is salivating at the thought. They should lift the sanctions if they actually gave a single fuck about the people beyond just the US government's gain in having another puppet state.
If you're an American that wants liberty then my post does not apply to you. It applies to your government and intelligence communities that continually exploit unrest for their own gain.
Can't help but notice the US is salivating at the thought. They should lift the sanctions if they actually gave a single fuck about the people beyond just the US government's gain in having another puppet state.
If you're an American that wants liberty then my post does not apply to you. It applies to your government and intelligence communities that continually exploit unrest for their own gain.
Of course the embargo should be lifted, but BLM seemingly boiling down all the problems the Cuban people are facing from the oppressive government to the embargo misses the point of many of the protests in the first place. We need to condemn police brutalty and authoritarianism everywhere, regardless of the ideology of the state's government.
Yeah it seems like people are going to continue to ignore that the protesters are chanting things like "freedom!", "we're not afraid!", and "down with the dictatorship!"
Just going to ignore what the protesters are actually saying and project what they think their grievances should be like the patronizing gringos we all know them to be.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cuba-economy-un-idUSKBN1IA00T
2018 UN report which claimed the US' embargo had cost Cuba 130 billion dollars over 6 decades. The only countries that voted to keep the embargo were the US and Israel. The Cunt's blunt rotation.
2018 UN report which claimed the US' embargo had cost Cuba 130 billion dollars over 6 decades. The only countries that voted to keep the embargo were the US and Israel. The Cunt's blunt rotation.
Agreed. No reason to keep the embargo other than pettiness and political cowardice.
Reading more and more on the embargo it sounds more like a ban on capitalist exploitation of the island than anything else. Prevents American companies from doing business with Cuba and American financial institutions from working with it. Things must be paid for in cash, not credit. Food and humanitarian supplies (I assume this includes medical) have been allowed since the 2000s so it would seem this has little to do with the current crisis. I'm all for normalizing relations though. I think our businesses and institutions worming their way throughout Cuba as soft power are probably better at positive regime change than an embargo shutting them off. Historically, it's been opening things up that have rapidly changed societies. Closing them off just hardens them and allows the regime to control their people better.
Current crisis is caused by decline in tourism due to covid and what money people make in tourists cities is now valued less due to the end of dual currency.
That's essentially the way Cuba was trending, too. They were trying to follow in China and Vietnam's footsteps of liberalizing parts of their economy (in particular the tourism and tourist-facing sectors) and ceding greater control over the means of production to private parties (don't socialists usually want to do the opposite of that?), reaping the economic benefits without relinquishing any of the political power. Perestroika without the glasnost.
Cuba opens up its economy to private businesses
The labour minister announces a major reform to the communist country's state-controlled economy.
www.bbc.com
The embargo didn't force the Cuban government to have secret police and to make dissidents disappear for decades. Stop with blaming the embargo for the blatant, open, and notorious human rights violations that have happened in Cuba for as long as I've been alive and then some.
the Cuban government is a disgusting awful institution, there is no debating this. Anyone trying to whataboutism this shit or put cuba's terrible conditions almost exclusively on the embargo isnt discussing the plight of the cuban people in good faith.
the Cuban government is a disgusting awful institution, there is no debating this. Anyone trying to whataboutism this shit or put cuba's terrible conditions almost exclusively on the embargo isnt discussing the plight of the cuban people in good faith.
How is the embargo preventing the Cuban people from choosing their own form of government when Cuba is a single party authoritarian state.
What? Who the hell wrote that line?
Boiling down all of Cuba's issues to the embargo is childish and seems like a bad faith argument. Besides, there's zero mention of the state essentially outlawing political participation or real dissent.
That's essentially the way Cuba was trending, too. They were trying to follow in China and Vietnam's footsteps of liberalizing parts of their economy (in particular the tourism and tourist-facing sectors) and ceding greater control over the means of production to private parties (don't socialists usually want to do the opposite of that?), reaping the economic benefits without relinquishing any of the political power. Perestroika without the glasnost.
Cuba opens up its economy to private businesses
The labour minister announces a major reform to the communist country's state-controlled economy.
There is a problem of us basically enabling these regimes just by doing business in the country. Though I wonder how sustainable it is. Eventually things will change. Nothing stays the same forever and these inflexible systems usually crack pretty hard.
this
it's debatable for sure whether these embargos actually achieve anything or whether they just hurt the general populace, but it was put into place for a reason and it's not even what people are protesting against rn
Good on them to condemn the embargo. Black America has a history of standing with Cuban revolutionaries:
And when Fidel Castro re-visited Harlem in the 90's, when I was a teenager, he was greeted with love and appreciation, which has really stuck with me over the years. That's not to say his regime is perfect but black America and Cuban communism has deep roots of unity. It's time to end the embargo. We could help improve conditions in Cuba immediately.
And you lost me there. Woo end the embargo, stop human suffering. Hey here is a mass murdering dictator, wooo celebrate him! It's such hypocrisy of the highest level. Yes the embargo is bad, end it, that's still not the core issue. Ending the embargo won't give the people of Cuba their basic freedoms, it won't make them less oppressed. The people marching on the streets are not chanting to end the embargo, they are calling for the end of a dictatorship that has cause countless suffering for decades. Don't ever forget that.
The irony is BLM type protests aka protests against the government can get you "disappeared" in Cuba.
Yes, I want the embargo ended. But fascism has got to go. Not surprised to see 'whataboutism', because it's in the playbook for those who defend authoritarianism. Every. Damned. Time.
Yes, I want the embargo ended. But fascism has got to go. Not surprised to see 'whataboutism', because it's in the playbook for those who defend authoritarianism. Every. Damned. Time.
I cannot say I'm stunned, but it is always a nice reminder of how deep the propaganda for imperialism goes that people in this thread seem to think that US policy towards Cuba has anything at all to do with human rights.
I'm sure that the same US officials who are currently turning away literally all Cuban refugees regardless of whether they qualify as refugees and maintaining not just the regular blockade but also Trump's enhancements to the blockade (enacted by EO meaning they can be removed at the swipe of a pen) really just deeply care about human rights and the people of Cuba. The fact that the country has a long and storied history, one that's actively ongoing to this day, of supporting horrific dictators and countries in the middle of ongoing ethnic cleansing campaigns so long as their countries are open for exploitation by American capital is just a giant coincidence.
I'm sure that the same US officials who are currently turning away literally all Cuban refugees regardless of whether they qualify as refugees and maintaining not just the regular blockade but also Trump's enhancements to the blockade (enacted by EO meaning they can be removed at the swipe of a pen) really just deeply care about human rights and the people of Cuba. The fact that the country has a long and storied history, one that's actively ongoing to this day, of supporting horrific dictators and countries in the middle of ongoing ethnic cleansing campaigns so long as their countries are open for exploitation by American capital is just a giant coincidence.
Looks like some people here have allies.
floridapolitics.com
Also, good point:
Marco Rubio blasts Black Lives Matter for defending communist Cuban regime
Senator labeled the group as an 'extortionist ring.'
floridapolitics.com
Also, good point:
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Looks like some people here have allies.
Marco Rubio blasts Black Lives Matter for defending communist Cuban regime
Senator labeled the group as an 'extortionist ring.'
He's a Cuban-American who had family members impacted by the brutal dictatorship. You're telling me he's going to be pissed at a group openly supporting said dictatorship?
Ah yes, good old fashioned whataboutism.
Looks like some people here have allies.
Marco Rubio blasts Black Lives Matter for defending communist Cuban regime
Senator labeled the group as an 'extortionist ring.'
Corporate marxists back ar it again
OP
OP
It seems ironic to mock Cubans for receiving moral support from Marco Rubio while amplifying the messaging of the regime oppressing them. Not all that concerned about who your own allies are, eh?
Looks like some people here have allies.
Marco Rubio blasts Black Lives Matter for defending communist Cuban regime
Senator labeled the group as an 'extortionist ring.'
Also, good point:
Here comes the politics, seems many people hate Cubans simply because the Cuban exiles are generally Republicans. That hate or at the least a sense of apathy gets extended to the Cuban people. It becomes more about defending the political view point than actually caring about the plight of the people.
I am constantly disgusted by the actions of my fellow Miami Cubans, trust me I am no fan of Rubio. We have to live with family members that voted Trump for no other reason than you always vote Republican no matter what. Every Cuban American from Miami understands this dynamic. We can totally disagree on politics but none of that changes that many of us have family members on that island struggling to just have food, to have basic medicine. I can't tell you how many trips to "Va Cuba" I made with my grandmother to send simple shit like diapers and Tylenol to cuba cause they have so little and have no means to earn more to live a better life. Yes their logic is ass backwards when it comes to the embargo, but most do care to see their former home be free of that regime.
I mean, let's be clear here, the Democratic Party literally does itself no favors when it comes to courting Cuban-American voters. Look no further than Biden's administration overtly saying it will be turning away all Cuban (and Haitian) refugees.
This too.
Also I want to note these kinds of BLM posts all the whataboutism blaming america makes it impossible to change the minds of these Republican voters. A lot of the younger generation born from Cuban parents are more open, plenty are democrats. We try yo have discussions with our elders, many times it's about as pointless as talking to wall BUT some do listen. But when the left starts to put out statements like that, and continuously downplay the atrocities of the the Cuban government, or worse celebrate it, that ends any argument I can give. I'm done, I got nothing, they will use that till the end of time and now you just created more Republican voters. Some younger Cubans that maybe can be swayed are going to be lost. It's such easy ammo for the Republicans to use. And I know Republicans will use this and twist it around for their gain just as much, but let's not get down to their level.
Anyway I'm getting caught up on all that. Right now main thing is to support the Cuban people and hope for real massive government change.
OP
OP
This seems veering a little too far into American politics, but I can tell you all I know young Cuban-American immigrants who hate the GOP, never liked Rubio, generally hold progressive views. And they are annoyed at the Democrats for their lack of support and livid at parts of the Democratic base for actively supporting the regime which is beating and killing their friends and family. They are reaching out their hands for help, and the only people reaching back are on the right. Then to add insult to injury the left laughs at them for receiving support from Rubio and uses it to attack their credibility.
If you want to support marginalized groups, reach back. Engage with people. Don't force them into a corner with the GOP by talking over them.
If you want to support marginalized groups, reach back. Engage with people. Don't force them into a corner with the GOP by talking over them.
Maybe you could explain this why this is a "good point" because it looks like nonsensical whataboutism
Last I checked, drugs are highly criminalized in Cuba, and they imprison people for possession of cannabis. I don't know what the numbers on overdoses are over there, but it's not exactly due to progressive drug policy.
I haven't seen anyone here saying the embargo is about human rights. That's a straw man. We are saying that what the Cuban people are calling for is the end of the regime, not the embargo. To them it is about human rights.
And people here who gloss over that because all they see is that Cuba is an adversary of the United States, and since they despise the US therefore they give Cuba a pass; well, those people are either ignorant or hypocrites.
Well, at least that's faster and better than the responses by Ivan Duque in Colombia and Piñera in Chile. It would be ideal if they open to organizations such as Amnesty International to oversee the responses to protests too (without completely discarding them like Maduro does either)
Nobody has suggested that there aren't some Cubans who support the Communist regime. All dictatorships have some amount of support, especially when propaganda is so strong on the ground there.