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Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
We appear to be going round and round in circles. People are operating under the premise that this is a Japanese sales thread, so the only thing that "matters" in our discussions is the Japanese market. However, I'm advocating for the idea that the global market is incredibly important to any game developer or platform holder in general (which should be obvious), and that this cannot be ignored when discussing Japanese developers and their support.

Yes, having the support of the vast majority of Japanese publishers is important in Japan itself, but on a global scale having the backing of the heavy hitters from Square, Namco, Capcom, Sega et al is obviously a prospect that would be enticing to any platform holder, and that probably is a long-term goal of Nintendo's as well. It has nothing to do with their performance in Japan, because the Japanese market has effectively been theirs for several years now.

That's the last I'm going to say on the subject.
 

TonyBaduy

Member
Oct 11, 2020
2,358
Mexico
And specific Capcom games skipping Switch when they want to aim higher specs tells me nothing when they have showed serious effort to invest on the system with games developed around it.
I am quite sure Capcom is hard at work with many unannounced Switch projects just due to the fact they ported the RE engine to the platform. It took them time, but they probably will start releasing more new games on it, with the next Resident Evil being another major game, after both MH games. As the leak wasn't exhaustive, we don't really know what else they have planned, but I doubt it's little.

Now that Nagoshi is out of the picture at Sega, I wonder if something will change there? It may take too long though, so we could be seeing the impact of his demotion and departure until a few years have passed.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Now that Nagoshi is out of the picture at Sega, I wonder if something will change there? It may take too long though, so we could be seeing the impact of his demotion and departure until a few years have passed.
they can always start with ports of Yakuza and Sakura Wars. as long as they don't charge full price for them, they'd be worth the porting costs and it would prep the audience for further Yakuza titles
 

kimbo99

Member
Feb 21, 2021
4,798
Sonic colors sales performance almost made me cry man. I hope to god the IP gets saved. Sonic 2 is still one of my favorite games of all time 😭
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,056
We appear to be going round and round in circles. People are operating under the premise that this is a Japanese sales thread, so the only thing that "matters" in our discussions is the Japanese market. However, I'm advocating for the idea that the global market is incredibly important to any game developer or platform holder in general (which should be obvious), and that this cannot be ignored when discussing Japanese developers and their support.

Yes, having the support of the vast majority of Japanese publishers is important in Japan itself, but on a global scale having the backing of the heavy hitters from Square, Namco, Capcom, Sega et al is obviously a prospect that would be enticing to any platform holder, and that probably is a long-term goal of Nintendo's as well. It has nothing to do with their performance in Japan, because the Japanese market has effectively been theirs for several years now.

That's the last I'm going to say on the subject.

Having just read this and yes we are indeed going in circles. However I would still want to share some of my thoughts:

1. It's not the right idea to come to a thread focused on Japanese sales thread and advocate for global sales discussion. This is something that belongs to a Global sales thread. We can't just remove the Japanese context from the discussion here. Why not go to NPD, PAL and UK to advocate for global discussion? Why single out Japanese thread? This is most likely answered by my next point.

2) Global sales numbers are rare and far in between, you cannot meaningfully discuss global numbers and trends in the same granular way unless you have history and data like Japanese sales thread does. This threads can literally dissect how discounts affects sales trajectory In Japan on week to week basis (something that never happens unless dataholders shares such info on NPD/UK/PAL) and is able make meaningful predictions and judgement based on past trends. This is why those threads don't have the same number of discussion compared to MC threads. No other threads have this level of data. This is why the thread is annoyed at certain disruptive and bad faith posters who ignore past data to push their console agenda, usually anxious fans of other consoles worried about loss of Japanese marketshare.

3) Success is not an either/or scenario, you can be both successful at Japan and RotW. You can also be successful in RotW but not Japan. Japanese sales thread are focused on how a game did in Japan, just like UK is focused on UK and NPD is focused on US. This is a function of such threads, not a bug, not sure why the need to fix what isn't broken. Global sales are not the main focus of discussion, even if they sometimes show up to give context to discussion (but more often used to detail discussion by assuming numbers we do not have).

4) Most Japanese developers, especially Bandai Namco AND Sega, the focus of most discussions, are simply NOT pushing the hardware enough to justify their exclusion of Nintendo platforms and thus atrophying their Japanese growth potential. Nobody on MC has been discussing about high-end Capcom SE or From games missing Switch, as most regulars already understand that that isn't these companies' business model.
 
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Chris1964

Chris1964

SalesEra Genius
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,155
That Nintendo is supposed to own Japanese market for several years now shows that what has been mentioned several times before at last pages and not only from me still can't be understood:

This is a false statement, what is happening now hasn't happened since Sony entered gaming market. Whoever doesn't see this will never realise why we got here or what is following.
 
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Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
That Nintendo is supposed to own Japanese market for several years now shows that what has been mentioned several times before at last pages and not only from me still can't be understood:

This is a false statement, what is happening now hasn't happened since Sony entered gaming market. Whoever doesn't see this will never realise why we got here or what is following.

Yes Chris, you're the only person in the world that understands the Japanese market. But please, keep picking single lines out of pages and pages of discourse without context and making offhand-ish remarks about them to nobody in particular.
 
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Chris1964

Chris1964

SalesEra Genius
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,155
Yes Chris, you're the only person in the world that understands the Japanese market. But please, keep picking single lines out of pages and pages of discourse without context and making offhand-ish remarks about them to nobody in particular.
Every post of yours shows you think under that prism whatever line I pick.
 

Zalman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,896
Now that Nagoshi is out of the picture at Sega, I wonder if something will change there? It may take too long though, so we could be seeing the impact of his demotion and departure until a few years have passed.
Nagoshi is famously not the only person at SEGA who opposed the Switch (at least for Yakuza):
Daisuke Sato: "To be realistic about what happened, Yakuza 1&2 HD for Wii U was a huge failure. But we are always looking to develop for multiple platforms as much as possible and know that brings in a greater audience to attract more people. However, as far as Switch is concerned, I'm convinced that it isn't the ideal platform on which to develop Yakuza games. Maybe people don't expect this kind of game on Switch. Maybe they're used to different games. It may not be the ideal platform. As for Xbox One, we can consider it, knowing that Xbox One users may be more likely to be interested in a game like Yakuza. This could potentially be an option."
This quote is from 2018 though so he could have changed his stance. The games did come to Xbox eventually.
 

rAndom

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,866
That Nintendo is supposed to own Japanese market for several years now shows that what has been mentioned several times before at last pages and not only from me still can't be understood:

This is a false statement, what is happening now hasn't happened since Sony entered gaming market. Whoever doesn't see this will never realise why we got here or what is following.

That's true. A few years back the discussion revolved around what would Nintendo do with a dominating mobile market eating up their handheld market share and with their home console selling so bad and can't sell software that's not Splatoon or Mario Kart.
 

Dale Copper

Member
Apr 12, 2018
22,025
Sonic colors sales performance almost made me cry man. I hope to god the IP gets saved. Sonic 2 is still one of my favorite games of all time 😭
Sonic IP just isn't about games anymore. It shit like merch and Sega just give low effort stuff to "please" fans/keep this part of the brand "relevant".
 
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Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
Every post of yours shows you think under that prism whatever line I pick.

No, the fact is simply that PlayStation as a platform has struggled since PS3, and what we're seeing now has been a long time coming. I don't think anyone could have predicted when precisely it was going to happen, because it isn't as though every Nintendo platform since the DS has been successful either, but it was always inevitable that Nintendo would eventually be the only major player because the Japanese market's tastes were clearly changing and Nintendo was one of the only companies responding to it. All it was ever going to take was a stable platform that was close enough in specs to PS machines, and for Nintendo to do outreach.

That's why I said "effectively". The complete dominion over Japan is something that has happened with Switch, but the seeds for the transition were planted a while ago.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,300
To me the real interest in Sega games on Switch happens after SMT V drops and suddenly they have a framework for stuff like remakes using that engine or new EO games.

So basically Atlus stuff. Other than that nostalgia ports like Panzer Dragoon and Super Monkey Ball. I wish Sega Ages had continued. It really doesn't matter one way or another if Yakuza gets on Switch. Would it maybe stem some of the downward momentum in Japan of the franchise? Possibly.
 
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Chris1964

Chris1964

SalesEra Genius
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,155
That's true. A few years back the discussion revolved around what would Nintendo do with a dominating mobile market eating up their handheld market share and with their home console selling so bad and can't sell software that's not Splatoon or Mario Kart.
It's not just comparing to a few years ago when Nintendo was at difficult position. Even during DS/Wii days Nintendo didn't have so big advantage over Sony in Japan from the moment they shared different gaming libraries and majority of third parties being behind PlayStation from day -1. There were multiple reasons back then to buy PS3 or Vita. It's not the same today and a few exceptions from companies that don't have the power that had once won't make the difference.

PS5 needs continued big exclusives for being attractive anymore and apparently this isn't realistic to happen.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,910
To me the real interest in Sega games on Switch happens after SMT V drops and suddenly they have a framework for stuff like remakes using that engine or new EO games.

So basically Atlus stuff. Other than that nostalgia ports like Panzer Dragoon and Super Monkey Ball. I wish Sega Ages had continued. It really doesn't matter one way or another if Yakuza gets on Switch. Would it maybe stem some of the downward momentum in Japan of the franchise? Possibly.
Sega Ages' fate was sealed when CS3 was dissolved and emphasis was reshifted entirely to the cross-media Sakura Taisen group projects. It's really a shame given Okunari and M2 got 3 waves with 3D Classics and the potential for retro games on Switch (and expanding the series beyond Switch tbh). It's not just Sega Ages though, the reorg also basically killed any real future for Virtual On, Shining and Valkyria. It also weirdly waylaid CS2/Sonic Team, pushing back mainline Sonic R&D by years and limiting original output in the interim to just Puyo Puyo and Olympics games. Really a lot of mismanagement all around for Sega internal R&D this cycle.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
It would be interesting to see a graph of how games mostly became cross platform in Japan with the release of the Switch. Excluding 1st party games, the libraries are probably close to 80-90% identical, definitely the most similar any two consoles brands in Japan have had.
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
To me the real interest in Sega games on Switch happens after SMT V drops and suddenly they have a framework for stuff like remakes using that engine or new EO games.

So basically Atlus stuff. Other than that nostalgia ports like Panzer Dragoon and Super Monkey Ball. I wish Sega Ages had continued. It really doesn't matter one way or another if Yakuza gets on Switch. Would it maybe stem some of the downward momentum in Japan of the franchise? Possibly.
i want yakuza chibi
 
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Chris1964

Chris1964

SalesEra Genius
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,155
It would be interesting to see a graph of how games mostly became cross platform in Japan with the release of the Switch. Excluding 1st party games, the libraries are probably close to 80-90% identical, definitely the most similar any two consoles brands in Japan have had.
We are over this stage, next interesting to see is how many traditional Sony supporters will start skipping PS5 for some projects and focus only on Switch. We already had some unexpected decisions this year.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,910
yup. could be an interesting bizarre twist to the franchise.
In truth Yakuza's path feels set, although losing PC for Lost Judgement is an interesting hurdle for us to watch unfold.

More worrying I think was the needlessly limited VF "comeback" and what real impact it leaves on the franchise. I'm really curious about the future of AM1 and AM2 (now a single group) generally with the Covid- fueled acceleration of arcades dying and how they might transition to consumer again. VF5US in retrospect maybe wasn't the best foot forward there and feels hamstrung by CS1/RGG Studio politics.
 

robjoh

Member
Oct 31, 2017
586
We are over this stage, next interesting to see is how many traditional Sony supporters will start skipping PS5 for some projects and focus only on Switch. We already had some unexpected decisions this year.

As I am mostly casually reading these threads, which unexpected decisions are you referring to?
 

Caiops

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,107
I dont see Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio, Capcom Div1(RE and DMC), or most of Square Enix Business Divisions like 1 and 3, KH Team, skipping the PS5.

So i dont know what he is talking about. Lol
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,910
This is the reason why I don't think much will change even with Nagoshi being demoted lol.

You still have people who think similar at Sega.
Maybe it won't change at CS1/RGG Studio but it's very much open for debate at the other internal groups freed of CCO meddling. It's been clear Sega Japan needed a shift generally with Sega West and really even Atlus leaving them in the dust.

There's also the question of which likeminded staff Nagoshi could take with him to Netease. Even RGG Studio might look very different next year, they're not entirely off the table either imo.
 

AquaWateria

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
Maybe it won't change at CS1/RGG Studio but it's very much open for debate at the other internal groups freed of CCO meddling. It's been clear Sega Japan needed a shift generally with Sega West and really even Atlus leaving them in the dust.

There's also the question of which likeminded staff Nagoshi could take with him to Netease. Even RGG Studio might look very different next year, they're not entirely off the table either imo.

Even then I still don't see Sega putting much of an effort towards the Switch. Sonic colors was a terrible port on the Switch compared to everything else. You would think they would have focused on the platform where Sonic sells best, but they didn't. It's why I expect nothing good to come out of the new Sonic game on the Switch either. Expect them to focus more on other systems rather than the Switch.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,910
Even then I still don't see Sega putting much of an effort towards the Switch. Sonic colors was a terrible port on the Switch compared to everything else. You would think they would have focused on the platform where Sonic sells best, but they didn't. It's why I expect nothing good to come out of the new Sonic game on the Switch either. Expect them to focus more on other systems rather than the Switch.
Rangers will be a real test but I expect it to at least go better than Colors Ultimate. It's an internal effort and Sonic Team will be looking for redemption after Sakura Wars.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,739
Italy
Lost Judgment has a lot working against it.

The first game even had a controversy that helped push some units.

The controversy happened 4 months after the game launch when it had already sold most of its bulk. SEGA was smart in releasing Judgment in December (as a game targeting towards more adult gamers I think it was the right move) and was also lucky that at that time PS4 had a sparse release schedule (biggest release were Call of Duty and Dragon Quest Builders 2). Of course, being a quality game helped with word-of-mouth.

I think what is going against Lost Judgment is the fact that userbase isn't there anymore rather than the game per se.
 

Aostia82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,366
We appear to be going round and round in circles. People are operating under the premise that this is a Japanese sales thread, so the only thing that "matters" in our discussions is the Japanese market. However, I'm advocating for the idea that the global market is incredibly important to any game developer or platform holder in general (which should be obvious), and that this cannot be ignored when discussing Japanese developers and their support.

Yes, having the support of the vast majority of Japanese publishers is important in Japan itself, but on a global scale having the backing of the heavy hitters from Square, Namco, Capcom, Sega et al is obviously a prospect that would be enticing to any platform holder, and that probably is a long-term goal of Nintendo's as well. It has nothing to do with their performance in Japan, because the Japanese market has effectively been theirs for several years now.

That's the last I'm going to say on the subject.



Once again I think you see the issue only from a platform holder perspective
I agree with what you just wrote, and I also think that there wont be/there is little need to change a lot, about those few "big guns"

I didnt have anything against Village skipping Switch for example

Even if at the same time I would be critic against SE if they will skip a Nintendo platform for DQ

But, let me tell you that you should also look at the issue from a developer perspective

Do you think that SEGA was smart in planning Sakura Wars the way they did, skipping Switch?

I don't think so

If you agree that it would be smart for software houses to inlcude Switch, considering that I agree that Nintendo in the long term would benefit in including also those "big guns" in their third party support, I think we found a middleground here
 
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Chris1964

Chris1964

SalesEra Genius
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,155
As I am mostly casually reading these threads, which unexpected decisions are you referring to?
Konami and Koei Tecmo were not long ago among the biggest PlayStation supporters.

When you heard realistic baseball and Musou there was only one platform holder you could think.
 

Caiops

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,107
Konami a big PlayStation supporter? Just because they released MGS in any plataform that could run it? Lol

Koei just released Nioh 2, a game still console exclusive(PS4)
 

ACL

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,304
Tales of Arises Japanese sales performance so far has been weak. 200k between two platforms is an underwhelming result for a mainline Tales of game. Considering that we aren't talking about a niche series like Atelier but about a former top 3 "Playstation JRPG" IP. Around Xilia levels would have been a some kind of return to form, something Namco clearly failed to reach. We are talking about a significant increase in development time and possibly significant increase in budget, selling worse in Japan than the last Hideo Baba lead Tales of before he was fired is a disappointing result. Just to put things in perspective, the current level of performance in Japan lead to the abandonment of further GCN Tales of games, despite Tales of Symphonias worldwide success.

About the constant deflection, "but look at the West", whenever Japanese sales are discussed in a Japanese sales thread, I see it as a coping mechanism for who can't deal with the recent market reality in Japan.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,910
Konami a big PlayStation supporter? Just because they released MGS in any plataform that could run it? Lol

Koei just released Nioh 2, a game still console exclusive(PS4)
MGS was generally PS exclusive until V and that one also still skipped platforms that could run it. PES, SH, Powapuro, DDR and others historically prioritized PlayStation too, but that's not unusual as Konami has long been a multiplatform supporter with strong priority for market leaders.

Nioh are the extent of Koei Tecmo's PS exclusives now. Although honestly they're not a company that tends to push for exclusives unless it's in more of a contract capacity (MUA3, Hyrule/FE/Touken Ranbu/etc Musou).
 
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Chris1964

Chris1964

SalesEra Genius
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,155
There's no contract for Touken Ranbu Musou, where did this come from now. The game had a random announcement.
 

CeroMiedo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,337
Posting lol at every innocent post won't get you anywhere or make you look smarter.
Like I'm sorry but dude not only adding nothing to the conversation but also comes out as a troll a lot of times. I still remember him spent like multiple threads talking about why square enix shouldn't make an exclusive final fantasy for switch when literally no ones had talked about it, then went on to ignore everyone who asked him.
 

lost7

Member
Feb 20, 2018
2,750
Always such passive aggressiveness in these threads... I always like reading the analysis of select posters, but it is hard to read past the tone of the discussions here often being so toxic.
 

AquaWateria

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
Always such passive aggressiveness in these threads... I always like reading the analysis of select posters, but it is hard to read past the tone of the discussions here often being so toxic.

Tbh it's gonna get a bit worse when other bigger games start to release.

Final Fantasy 16 is the one to watch out for next year lol.
 
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