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Le Dude

Member
May 16, 2018
4,709
USA
Oh wow...

While I appreciate that mods are finally taking action and spent some time elaborating those guidelines, which make sense in part... I can't help but feel they don't tackle the root of the problem, as others have expressed more eloquently. With all due respect, I think the whole matter is being approached through the wrong lenses. I definitely can't agree with the decision of banning Chris. And yes, it would have been nice if the community was consulted before constructing any guidelines.

These posts are just a small selection of what I feel are great points that hopefully the mod team takes into account.
Basically how I feel about the whole ordeal. The actions and the new guidelines may be made in good faith, but the moderation did absolutely nothing to address longstanding issues with bad faith members or people dropping in with drive-bys to antagonize those same members. Additionally cross-thread drama isn't uncommon, where users in other threads talk poorly about the media create threads without understanding any nuance about the Japanese market. Add in the fact that many of those longstanding members where given bans when they voiced their criticisms, and then the doubling down by moderation instead of admitting they fucked up, and this very well could be the end of Sales Era. Lelouch has already stepped down from the NPD threads and I wouldn't be shocked if Chris doesn't return in Media Create threads. Why would anyone be interested in investing their time and passion into continuing the tradition here when there's always the threat of moderation sweeping in and dropping similar bans? Maybe things would be fine if it was just Chris's one day ban and then a thread lock, but considering the continued bans and the lack of any indication that moderation has interest in addressing complaints from the longtime sales posters I think this very well may be the end.

Ah well, if Era drives away another community it's just the site being the vitcim of its own hubris once again. Such a shame since the more in-depth sales discussion is one of the biggest reasons I lurk on era.
 

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,108
Guidelines or whatever aren't really the issue, the mod team finally coming here and just banning a large amount of regulars is. Feels like it'd be more straightforward to say "we don't like the current community here" to be honest.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,142
No need to get all emotional because of a days ban. I'll follow these threads where ever they go but this has been a much better place for these discussions then the old place for example. There the mods actively participated and gave out bans for pretty much any opinion that was a different from theirs and people were quickly labeled as fanboys. Man I hated that place.

one of my few bans happened at neogaf as i was doing the game of the year thread. at the time, they were done manually and on my own (the community was quick to correct any mistakes though).

at the time, sony had removed backwards compatibility from the ps3 for its newest models. the reason given was that people weren't using the feature so it was decided to remove it. i quipped that the next thing would be to go would be its ability to play games since not many people were doing that either. in my mind, the joke was that this was about software sales, which were low (because hardware sales were low) in the early part of the ps3's life. i got banned for it being 'a little too trollish' and i assume that this was interpreted as saying there weren't any games on the ps3, which is usually a go-to troll move by saying a platform doesn't have any software.

i never got a chance to explain it and i'm not sure if it would have made a difference. it was going to be a month ban, i think, and that's where there was going to be some trouble. because i had been doing the goty thread and it meant that i'd be banned during the time when the results were to go live. it was decided that my ban would be lifted temporarily and then reinstated afterwards.

and so, i never was actually banned outside of that brief early period. my first instinct was to explain myself, but the second thing i did was request that the ban be put in place because having it just hang over my head for december was a big bummer if i was putting all this work into a thread. and my feeling was like, i was only respected as far as to be useful to the site without anyone taking into account my concerns.

chris might feel the same way. so i wouldn't blame him if he felt a need to take a break or to step away entirely. i handled sales data in threads from 2001 through 2005 on a weekly and then monthly basis, and the burnout was real, even though people were appreciative and the conversations were fun. that burnout on top of a feeling of the work not having value? i would have stopped a lot sooner.

and i hope people don't think of cvxfreak as just some rando mod. he's been following sales threads since dengeki was putting out top 50s back in the early 2000s. he was one of the first sales-age folks before there was even a neogaf. you won't find a better mediator between this community and the mod/admin team.
 
Dec 2, 2019
969
Hey Oregano, they did it for you cause people keep bullying you.
Yeah, this was one of the more laughable things I've read in months.
He is actually one of the best regulas users, a very brilliant one that contributes in every possible way and never, ever have ruined any discussion. In fact, he is so smart he knows nobody has ever "bullied" them, but there have been some cyclical and absolutely innocent jokes about him just because he is so particularly kind.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,853
Japan
I apologize if I misread the situation with Oregano. Some of the comments here directed at him read to me like some of the commentary directed towards presumed trolls (i.e., something being his "schtick"). I also remember reading similar comments in the past.

Egg on my face if so.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
I don't think the way some posters are pinning this thread's problems primarily on a relative handful of hot takes from "PlayStation fans" is going to help matters, or lead to the change the mods seem to be gunning for. These threads are predominantly frequented by "Nintendo fans", some of whom (emphasis on some, because it's far from everyone) absolutely do take part in the thinly veiled console warring in and out of these threads, which also doesn't help.

It's all contributing to the air of hostility in these threads which has been a growing issue since the MC threads back on GAF. While it's okay to give feedback and not agree 100% with the actions taken by staff, there needs to be at least a little self-reflection here for people to understand why MC threads have the reputation they do these days and the issues that the mods highlighted.
 

Kouriozan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,073
Just wanted to say I appreciate Chris for all the efforts he provided all those years, I mostly lurk since the old forum but I learned a lot about the Japanese market thanks to his inputs.
This is a fun one, counting the amount of games they have released on Nintendo Switch should be enough evidence, shouldn't be?
There's also the situation of the current market.
JRPGs, anime games and apparently the previously released Tales of sold best on Switch. So there is legit reasons to wonder why certain companies still haven't made expected moves when we are reaching 5 years on the market.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
I don't think the way some posters are pinning this thread's problems primarily on a relative handful of hot takes from "PlayStation fans" is going to help matters, or lead to the change the mods seem to be gunning for. These threads are predominantly frequented by "Nintendo fans", some of whom (emphasis on some, because it's far from everyone) absolutely do take part in the thinly veiled console warring in and out of these threads, which also doesn't help.

It's all contributing to the air of hostility in these threads which has been a growing issue since the MC threads back on GAF. While it's okay to give feedback and not agree 100% with the actions taken by staff, there needs to be at least a little self-reflection here for people to understand why MC threads have the reputation they do these days and the issues that the mods highlighted.
tbh there's really not much console warring here, if at all. It may sound like port begging or console warring when people suggest a declining series should release on Switch to reverse it, but it's not. It's just that when the JP market is as lopsided as it is, there really only is one solution to many problems. It's not like they can go anywhere else, like xbox or PC.
 

Deleted member 7572

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,041
User Banned (Permanent): Hostility and attacking the community. Prior ban for the exact same behaviour and numerous other infractions for hostility.
The bore is completely right about this place
 

rrost

Banned
Jul 20, 2018
480
I don't think the way some posters are pinning this thread's problems primarily on a relative handful of hot takes from "PlayStation fans" is going to help matters, or lead to the change the mods seem to be gunning for. These threads are predominantly frequented by "Nintendo fans", some of whom (emphasis on some, because it's far from everyone) absolutely do take part in the thinly veiled console warring in and out of these threads, which also doesn't help.

It's all contributing to the air of hostility in these threads which has been a growing issue since the MC threads back on GAF. While it's okay to give feedback and not agree 100% with the actions taken by staff, there needs to be at least a little self-reflection here for people to understand why MC threads have the reputation they do these days and the issues that the mods highlighted.
There's no reflection to be had here, the "reputation" of this thread you see outside of it is also driven by console warring nonsense, and from a very particular group of users.
 

lost7

Member
Feb 20, 2018
2,750
I really hope Chris will be back, his analysis and knowledge of the industry was second to none.

But I don't blame the moderation one bit here, the tone of these conversations always felt oppressive to me
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
There's no reflection to be had here, the "reputation" of this thread you see outside of it is also driven by console warring nonsense, and from a very particular group of users.

So you're honestly telling me that the issues in MC threads and the reputation they have is solely due to upset PlayStation fans? Because that's what you're inferring. Nevermind people who have complained about the general passive-aggressive tone and mockery that happen a little too frequently in here, which even I've been on the receiving end of multiple times in the past dating back to GAF.

We are in Japan sales thread tho.

What has that got to do with anything that I posted? There's nothing wrong with these threads being frequented predominantly by a certain subset of Era users, especially when said users are the only ones with anything really interesting to talk about. It's problematic when that then leads to needless hostility towards other users.

I'm not going to sit here and deny that PlayStation fans trolling the threads isn't an issue. But it's incredibly reductionist to suggest it is the only problem.
 
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mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
There's no reflection to be had here, the "reputation" of this thread you see outside of it is also driven by console warring nonsense, and from a very particular group of users.
yep, it's primarily an issue of how outside users paint the discussions in this thread. It's easy to look at the discussions here and say, "They just want everything to be on Switch!", when in reality it's more like, "unless you aim for WW as well, you kind of have to release on Switch".
 

Deleted member 32106

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 9, 2017
2,819
I don't think the way some posters are pinning this thread's problems primarily on a relative handful of hot takes from "PlayStation fans" is going to help matters, or lead to the change the mods seem to be gunning for. These threads are predominantly frequented by "Nintendo fans", some of whom (emphasis on some, because it's far from everyone) absolutely do take part in the thinly veiled console warring in and out of these threads, which also doesn't help.

It's all contributing to the air of hostility in these threads which has been a growing issue since the MC threads back on GAF. While it's okay to give feedback and not agree 100% with the actions taken by staff, there needs to be at least a little self-reflection here for people to understand why MC threads have the reputation they do these days and the issues that the mods highlighted.
We are in Japan sales thread tho.
 

Yunyo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,824
User banned (3 days, permanent threadban): Ignoring staff post, needlessly antagonistic commentary
The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language. Trying to act like the thread was some holy sanctum under constant assault from Playstation fans is not helping your case at all.

And don't try to paint it as "market realities". That would not come close to justifying the silly, childishly aggressive fanboy behavior I've seen in here. Hopefully the guidelines work, if people haven't been put off enough by the usual stench of not so slick dogpiling platform fanboys tiptoeing around language they know will get them banned.

Here's to the guidelines working out.
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
I'm not sure how people can be expected to just return to talking about sales outside of cheerleading when the guidelines means a proverbial sword of Damocles dangles over anyone who would be critical about it without having evidence at the ready, which may or may not meet the burden required.

Nagoshi, Harada and *insert developer* are EMPLOYEES of a large corporation.
As for Nihon Falcom, if you want to pretend NIS and CLE ports don't count, then there's no conversation to be had here.

Nagoshi was CCO of Sega, Harada is in charge of all BN Studios. They're not just random employees with no decision making power.

The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language. Trying to act like the thread was some holy sanctum under constant assault from Playstation fans is not helping your case at all.

And don't try to paint it as "market realities". That would not come close to justifying the silly, childishly aggressive fanboy behavior I've seen in here. Hopefully the guidelines work, if people haven't been put off enough by the usual stench of not so slick dogpiling platform fanboys tiptoeing around language they know will get them banned.

Hopefully the guidelines work out.

Excellent post, this is how you know you're on to a winner mods.
 

Deleted member 32106

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 9, 2017
2,819
The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language. Trying to act like the thread was some holy sanctum under constant assault from Playstation fans is not helping your case at all.

And don't try to paint it as "market realities". That would not come close to justifying the silly, childishly aggressive fanboy behavior I've seen in here. Hopefully the guidelines work, if people haven't been put off enough by the usual stench of not so slick dogpiling platform fanboys tiptoeing around language they know will get them banned.

Here's to the guidelines working out.
Delicious insult that mod will not do anything.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language. Trying to act like the thread was some holy sanctum under constant assault from Playstation fans is not helping your case at all.

And don't try to paint it as "market realities". That would not come close to justifying the silly, childishly aggressive fanboy behavior I've seen in here. Hopefully the guidelines work, if people haven't been put off enough by the usual stench of not so slick dogpiling platform fanboys tiptoeing around language they know will get them banned.

Here's to the guidelines working out.
I don't feel like your comment adds much to this discussion. There are no fan boys in here. When every major third party series on PS has declined and you see the level of PS5 software sales...there really isn't any other conclusion to be made.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
So you're honestly telling me that the issues in MC threads and the reputation they have is solely due to upset PlayStation fans? Because that's what you're inferring. Nevermind people who have complained about the general passive-aggressive tone and mockery that happen a little too frequently in here, which even I've been on the receiving end of multiple times in the past dating back to GAF.

I don't agree with this at all TBH. Obviously I've not been present all your interactions in prior MC threads but as I said a few pages ago MC threads have been 'fine' all year really till now. I actually did go through and looked through week 9's MC thread which I randomly chose in my previous comment and there was one warning, from a Nintendo fan, and one ban, from a Playstation fan, in all of 18 pages. There certainly wasn't any comment like this:
The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language. Trying to act like the thread was some holy sanctum under constant assault from Playstation fans is not helping your case at all.

And don't try to paint it as "market realities". That would not come close to justifying the silly, childishly aggressive fanboy behavior I've seen in here. Hopefully the guidelines work, if people haven't been put off enough by the usual stench of not so slick dogpiling platform fanboys tiptoeing around language they know will get them banned.

Here's to the guidelines working out.

In that thread. And of course there are already some sinpy comments re this thread from users in other threads which were all too predicatble as well.

The way this has been handled should be criticised, because it has been poor.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
Nagoshi was CCO of Sega, Harada is in charge of all BN Studios. They're not just random employees with no decision making power.

That isn't my point at all. It's never been.

I have never, never, ever liked the fact that this community identifies "executives with percieved favoritisms." We are talking about another person here. In my view, these discussions should look at organizational view of things, like companies as a whole define product and RTM strategy.

Are Harada and Nagoshi key players in defining the product vision/platform? Of course. They're high-ups. To me, I just don't like this being about individuals.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,056

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,108
Imagine praising the guidelines while breaking the rules set by one of the bolded points in the same post.
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
8,027
I don't think the way some posters are pinning this thread's problems primarily on a relative handful of hot takes from "PlayStation fans" is going to help matters, or lead to the change the mods seem to be gunning for. These threads are predominantly frequented by "Nintendo fans", some of whom (emphasis on some, because it's far from everyone) absolutely do take part in the thinly veiled console warring in and out of these threads, which also doesn't help.

It's all contributing to the air of hostility in these threads which has been a growing issue since the MC threads back on GAF. While it's okay to give feedback and not agree 100% with the actions taken by staff, there needs to be at least a little self-reflection here for people to understand why MC threads have the reputation they do these days and the issues that the mods highlighted.

I fully agree with this despite my complaints. For a long time now this thread hasn't felt welcoming to newcomers and there is a lot of snark and passive aggressiveness. Yes some of this is driven by the usual trolls but trying to pin it all on them is wrong.

Im not saying you have to baby the posters who aren't as knowledgeable as you or even respond to them but we could refrain from constantly shitting on other posters and belittling or dismissing their posts.

I agree with others that the way this has been handled has been poor but there has definitely been a lot of toxic behaviour in these threads.

The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language.

This is one of the changes I'm curious about. It's constantly implied that these sales threads are thinly veiled port begging from Nintendo fans.

This week I believe I was the one who started the derail by talking about ToA on switch. Now I don't like the tales game because of their sexist nature and frankly my switch is nothing but a smash bros machine. Am I port begging because I think it doesn't make sense for this game to miss the seitch
 

rrost

Banned
Jul 20, 2018
480
User banned (5 days): Platform wars. Inciting cross-community drama.
So you're honestly telling me that the issues in MC threads and the reputation they have is solely due to upset PlayStation fans? Because that's what you're inferring. Nevermind people who have complained about the general passive-aggressive tone and mockery that happen a little too frequently in here, which even I've been on the receiving end of multiple times in the past dating back to GAF.
It's mostly yes, I am not a regular, frequent or even a occasional poster here. The reputation you see here are entirely from Playstation fans.
MC create threads are very helpful to people who comes in with genuine curiosity, however the uninformed drivebys get met with mockery. You may call that fault of the community.
Also I agree that this place is not very friendly to Playstation fans but so is the market. Wiiu had gone through similar phases during its heyday.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
That isn't my point at all. It's never been.

I have never, never, ever liked the fact that this community identifies "executives with percieved favoritisms." We are talking about another person here. In my view, these discussions should look at organizational view of things, like companies as a whole define product and RTM strategy.

Are Harada and Nagoshi key players in defining the product vision/platform? Of course. They're high-ups. To me, I just don't like this being about individuals.
Nagoshi has done multiple interviews stating how Yakuza never would have existed without Sony, unprovoked. Meanwhile, when it comes to Switch, he makes comments about the userbase being great for kids and how console users can finally graduate from handhelds. We've also had articles published that detailed anonymous interviews with various JP devs and how some are scared of a Nintendo monopoly, when there has never been anything said when PS was supposed to be dominating in 2015-2016.

So yes there will be comments about certain publishers having biases in that context.
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
That isn't my point at all. It's never been.

I have never, never, ever liked the fact that this community identifies "executives with percieved favoritisms." We are talking about another person here. In my view, these discussions should look at organizational view of things, like companies as a whole define product and RTM strategy.

Are Harada and Nagoshi key players in defining the product vision/platform? Of course. They're high-ups. To me, I just don't like this being about individuals.

I would definitely agree with that to some extent, I think putting it down to the whims of individuals is too simplistic. But ultimately they are the faces of the company, and they likely are key decision makers. Harada and Nagoshi are the ones given interviews, tweeting out their views on the industry so it's only natural that it's directed at them.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language. Trying to act like the thread was some holy sanctum under constant assault from Playstation fans is not helping your case at all.

And don't try to paint it as "market realities". That would not come close to justifying the silly, childishly aggressive fanboy behavior I've seen in here. Hopefully the guidelines work, if people haven't been put off enough by the usual stench of not so slick dogpiling platform fanboys tiptoeing around language they know will get them banned.

Here's to the guidelines working out.
This comment comes across as kicking someone while their down with a tinge of "told ya so!". I don't appreciate being called a fanboy or taking part in a jerkoff session and I doubt the other "regulars" you seem to have a disdain for do either.
 

RavensShade

Member
Jul 31, 2020
96
I've only been lurking these threads for about a year, and just wanted to say that yes exchanges can get way too heated at times, inexcusavly so, but all the bans seems like moderation overeach, people are/were frustrated and they should be allowed to air those frustrations. aside from the accusation of shilling, the other posts weren't personal attacks, but genalised setiments on what happenes and how it was handled.

I just hope these threads can recover.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,142
I don't think the way some posters are pinning this thread's problems primarily on a relative handful of hot takes from "PlayStation fans" is going to help matters, or lead to the change the mods seem to be gunning for. These threads are predominantly frequented by "Nintendo fans", some of whom (emphasis on some, because it's far from everyone) absolutely do take part in the thinly veiled console warring in and out of these threads, which also doesn't help.

It's all contributing to the air of hostility in these threads which has been a growing issue since the MC threads back on GAF. While it's okay to give feedback and not agree 100% with the actions taken by staff, there needs to be at least a little self-reflection here for people to understand why MC threads have the reputation they do these days and the issues that the mods highlighted.

japanese sales threads are unique because they're the only place where you actually get a realistic snapshot of the industry on a regular basis. back in the 00s, we had the golden age of leaks, where we could understand what the market looked like in the united states on a monthly basis.

i think that things have settled down in the last 2-3 years to be honest. but the last 20 were incredibly tumultuous and fraught with drama. 1999-2001 was the death of the dreamcast, launch of ps2, xbox, and gamecube. there was this air around microsoft's entry into the market, the loss of sega, and the continued decline of nintendo that made it seem inevitable that the industry would be controlled by non-game makers. things really came to a head here with the ds and the psp - where the psp was meant to take down nintendo's final stronghold within the marketplace. when the drama of xbox overtaking nintendo's second place status in the us had died down, the handheld comparisons flared up between psp and ds. ds had a weak performance for the better part of a year, and then bounced back once it started receiving key software.

then the tables turned, and psp sales hit a plateau while ds sales skyrocketed - especially with the launch of ds lite, brain age, and new super mario bros. couple that with the surprise success of the wii, the surprise high price of the ps3, and there's a recipe for even more drama in the late 00s when companies left and right were merging or dying out to stay afloat in supporting the xbox 360 and/or ps3 instead of lowering their budgets and making games for less powerful hardware (though in some cases this did happen, hence the psp's late success in japan).

that run from 2001-2009 is probably the nastiest sales threads ever got. nintendo fans got shit on regularly, and playstation fans didn't know what failure felt like. when it switched around and nintendo was on top, there was this belief that the market would rally behind the top-selling hardware and it didn't happen. this is when nintendo fans were probably the most obnoxious.

things calmed down a lot when the wii u was bombing and so was the vita. it was sort of like things going back to 'normal' - ps4 was the top platform in the us, sony basically didn't have a handheld division anymore, and nintendo was making bottom-rung-selling hardware again. 3ds did well in japan and worldwide as nintendo's mainstream platform, but i don't recall any obnoxious fandom in particular from this timeframe.

the last few years with the final death of the vita, the weirdness of the ps4's decline and the ps5's okay hardware sales and abysmal software sales, coupled with the switch looking like it will hit the upper echelon of the best-selling hardware in japan - it's like a repeat of the mid-00s, except quieter. for the most part, developers have rallied behind the switch in a way they didn't with the wii. it just makes absences, such as madden, for example, the more glaring. and i think there's this expectation that especially japan will get on board because it appears that at long last, the writing is on the wall.

within all of that though is still the warring fandoms that made sales-age and sales-era into what they are. like, i started following dengeki threads to get a better understanding of how nintendo was performing in japan. on neogaf, i'd have my monthly updates on gamecube software sales and also sega third-party sales (to prove they were doing poorly on xbox you see - because of my bitterness over shenmue ii not releasing on dreamcast in the us). it's part of the dna of these threads.

i think that making restera's versions of nagoshi and harada and kondo is weird though, and would argue that discussion about these people only makes sense when they're ones making comments directly or were known to be in charge of a specific project that recently launched.

this was a stream of consciousness. sorry. i'm tired.

edit: to clarify the above - i realize looking at it now that it might come across as 'these threads have always been toxic and that's okay.' the intent was 'these threads have always had toxic elements and here's why.' that said, they've seemed pretty chill to me for the last decade or so.
 
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MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
I don't agree with this at all TBH. Obviously I've not been present all your interactions in prior MC threads but as I said a few pages ago MC threads have been 'fine' all year really till now. I actually did go through and looked through week 9's MC thread which I randomly chose in my previous comment and there was one warning, from a Nintendo fan, and one ban, from a Playstation fan, in all of 18 pages. There certainly wasn't any comment like this:


In that thread. And of course there are already some sinpy comments re this thread from users in other threads which were all too predicatble as well.

The way this has been handled should be criticised, because it has been poor.

I'm not saying the way this has been handled can't be criticised. In fact, I literally said the opposite. I'm saying that pinning MC thread issues solely on a handful of anonymous "PlayStation fans" doesn't paint a full picture, and is precisely why newcomers don't tend to post. To put it simply, MC threads have become incredibly insular.
 

Le Dude

Member
May 16, 2018
4,709
USA
Try to make it better without the troll posts and more mod whining.
Forgive my snarky reply you quoted, but it's hard not to be when the mods came in here and banned a bunch of regulars and put out a set of guidelines specifically aimed at them while making no effort to address drive-bys and cross-thread drama that stem from attitudes like the one in the post I replied to. I'm sure that post will be actioned by the mods, but those are the same mods who potentially just killed the sales community on the site, so I don't particularly have much faith at the moment.
 

rrost

Banned
Jul 20, 2018
480
The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language. Trying to act like the thread was some holy sanctum under constant assault from Playstation fans is not helping your case at all.

And don't try to paint it as "market realities". That would not come close to justifying the silly, childishly aggressive fanboy behavior I've seen in here. Hopefully the guidelines work, if people haven't been put off enough by the usual stench of not so slick dogpiling platform fanboys tiptoeing around language they know will get them banned.

Here's to the guidelines working out.
This is a sales thread, the entire purpose of this thread is to discuss how to maximize sales, how to expand the market. It's purpose is not to give all opinions equal value. You don't see shareholders asking for environmental conscious business decisions do you. Also unlike them these talks are neither harmful or Ill resarched. The poster may have different personal agendas for proposing them, but at the end it's all for sales. It is what it is.

Also silencing this thread won't change "market realities". It will only make few users "feel good".
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
8,027
Try to make it better without the troll posts and more mod whining.

That sort of post is exactly why people are unhappy. Seeing regulars getting banned for very little whilst posts like that are seemingly ok is going to upset people.

I would definitely agree with that to some extent, I think putting it down to the whims of individuals is too simplistic. But ultimately they are the faces of the company, and they likely are key decision makers. Harada and Nagoshi are the ones given interviews, tweeting out their views on the industry so it's only natural that it's directed at them.

Personally I don't like these discussions because they're so subjective. Sure you can point to some quotes from these individuals but it's impossible to ever know with certainty whether these things are true or not.

I much prefer discussion based around data and trends. As soon as discussion veers into the sort of thing you're talking about the conversation deteriorates because it's all so subject and people read different things into different words and the whole thing becomes a circular conversation.
 

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,108
I'm not saying the way this has been handled can't be criticised. In fact, I literally said the opposite. I'm saying that pinning MC thread issues solely on a handful of anonymous "PlayStation fans" doesn't paint a full picture, and is precisely why newcomers don't tend to post. To put it simply, MC threads have become incredibly insular.
Well, Japan IS an island after all.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
I'm not saying the way this has been handled can't be criticised. In fact, I literally said the opposite. I'm saying that pinning MC thread issues solely on a handful of anonymous "PlayStation fans" doesn't paint a full picture, and is precisely why newcomers don't tend to post. To put it simply, MC threads have become incredibly insular.
This is a comment I agree with. There are always two sides to every story and things festered for too long without any (proper) oversight.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,169
I stopped caring about these threads once it became just one big snipeshot contest and not so subtle console wars, so there definitely was a problem. No matter if it was eternal Nintendo port begging or overzealous defense of PS performance in Japan, it was just annoying and not worth participating in.
Most sales threads are pretty ugly tho, so it's not like these threads were some exception aside maybe cultivating "club" mentality over years due to weekly postings.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
I'm not saying the way this has been handled can't be criticised. In fact, I literally said the opposite. I'm saying that pinning MC thread issues solely on a handful of anonymous "PlayStation fans" doesn't paint a full picture, and is precisely why newcomers don't tend to post. To put it simply, MC threads have become incredibly insular.

That's fair enough, I just don't agree that the insular nature of the thread(s) was a/the problem to tackle, and certainly not in quite this way. Again, just take any random week (say I dunno week 19 now after week 9 passed by mostly without incident from my review), I bet it was mostly plesant and like I said fine, people who chose not to particpate did so of their own accord.

But we'll see what impact the rules have I guess, if people are to taken at their word and they do inded want to participate more, well now is the chance to prove that they are telling the truth and we should be seeing some more active users in these threads soon which will be nice!
 

Crazy Steve

Member
Oct 27, 2017
451
I don't feel like your comment adds much to this discussion. There are no fan boys in here. When every major third party series on PS has declined and you see the level of PS5 software sales...there really isn't any other conclusion to be made.
Yeah no. The MC thread always had a bad reputation because of all the hostility from the regulars here. Newbies and non hardcore Nintendo fans weren't welcome. So the general rule for many was to just stay out of the MC thread and just lurk here and there. And one of the reasons for this was the thread starter himself. So I'm not suprised why the regulars here are now trying to defend him and are acting like they are the victims. Because of a 1 day ban. Don't act like some random drive by posts or the constant port begging were the only issues here. The new guidelines are great. A good clean up was long overdue.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,499
japanese sales threads are unique because they're the only place where you actually get a realistic snapshot of the industry on a regular basis. back in the 00s, we had the golden age of leaks, where we could understand what the market looked like in the united states on a monthly basis.

i think that things have settled down in the last 2-3 years to be honest. but the last 20 were incredibly tumultuous and fraught with drama. 1999-2001 was the death of the dreamcast, launch of ps2, xbox, and gamecube. there was this air around microsoft's entry into the market, the loss of sega, and the continued decline of nintendo that made it seem inevitable that the industry would be controlled by non-game makers. things really came to a head here with the ds and the psp - where the psp was meant to take down nintendo's final stronghold within the marketplace. when the drama of xbox overtaking nintendo's second place status in the us had died down, the handheld comparisons flared up between psp and ds. ds had a weak performance for the better part of a year, and then bounced back once it started receiving key software.

then the tables turned, and psp sales hit a plateau while ds sales skyrocketed - especially with the launch of ds lite, brain age, and new super mario bros. couple that with the surprise success of the wii, the surprise high price of the ps3, and there's a recipe for even more drama in the late 00s when companies left and right were merging or dying out to stay afloat in supporting the xbox 360 and/or ps3 instead of lowering their budgets and making games for less powerful hardware (though in some cases this did happen, hence the psp's late success in japan).

that run from 2001-2009 is probably the nastiest sales threads ever got. nintendo fans got shit on regularly, and playstation fans didn't know what failure felt like. when it switched around and nintendo was on top, there was this belief that the market would rally behind the top-selling hardware and it didn't happen. this is when nintendo fans were probably the most obnoxious.

things calmed down a lot when the wii u was bombing and so was the vita. it was sort of like things going back to 'normal' - ps4 was the top platform in the us, sony basically didn't have a handheld division anymore, and nintendo was making bottom-rung-selling hardware again. 3ds did well in japan and worldwide as nintendo's mainstream platform, but i don't recall any obnoxious fandom in particular from this timeframe.

the last few years with the final death of the vita, the weirdness of the ps4's decline and the ps5's okay hardware sales and abysmal software sales, coupled with the switch looking like it will hit the upper echelon of the best-selling hardware in japan - it's like a repeat of the mid-00s, except quieter. for the most part, developers have rallied behind the switch in a way they didn't with the wii. it just makes absences, such as madden, for example, the more glaring. and i think there's this expectation that especially japan will get on board because it appears that at long last, the writing is on the wall.

within all of that though is still the warring fandoms that made sales-age and sales-era into what they are. like, i started following dengeki threads to get a better understanding of how nintendo was performing in japan. on neogaf, i'd have my monthly updates on gamecube software sales and also sega third-party sales (to prove they were doing poorly on xbox you see - because of my bitterness over shenmue ii not releasing on dreamcast in the us). it's part of the dna of these threads.

i think that making restera's versions of nagoshi and harada and kondo is weird though, and would argue that discussion about these people only makes sense when they're ones making comments directly or were known to be in charge of a specific project that recently launched.

this was a stream of consciousness. sorry. i'm tired.

No I think this is a good post, thanks for sharing. Explains a lot, as I only started following MC threads around the 3DS/Vita days. The context is appreciated. And especially agree with the last part of Nagoshi and Harada. Certainly not free from criticism but the constant hang-up with them, even when they haven't said anything directly, seems a little odd.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
I stopped caring about these threads once it became just one big snipeshot contest and not so subtle console wars, so there definitely was a problem. No matter if it was eternal Nintendo port begging or overzealous defense of PS performance in Japan, it was just annoying and not worth participating in.
Most sales threads are pretty ugly tho, so it's not like these threads were some exception aside maybe cultivating "club" mentality over years due to weekly postings.
How lovely that once Chris gets banned and the mods lay down new rules, we get more and more comments saying, "I told you so! You get what you deserve!" or "This place was always a Nintendo fan haven, just like I've been saying!".
 

Meriadock

Member
Apr 21, 2018
704
Brazil
My only hope is that Chris stays after this. He's the only reason I visit this forum

This.

I've been reading media create threads every single day since gaf.. I don't post a lot cuz' I'm always working or studying. But if I have 5 minutes in my day I always come here.

Point is, to any mod out there: this is a safe place. Yeah, some people can be a little sarcastic but the number of trolls grew in the last months.

It's okay to ban me, but with all the respect that I have for the mod team and Era in general: chris ban is REALLY unfair.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
1,990
Just caught up and... fucking wow. Those guidelines look like they were written for a sales thread on a different forum. Those things have never been issues here. The only real problem in MC threads are the trolls and the drivebys that go untouched. It's such a common problem that everyone jokes about whose alt it is this time. The frog guy relentlessly trolled these threads for months and got a slap on the wrist once. Then he drank his own kool-aid and took his show on the road, repeating his shtick in a thread on race and was immediately clapped for good. That tells you right there that the mods knew his conduct was unacceptable, yet he was allowed to fester in MC threads for months. Things would be a lot less tense of the trolls were dealt with sooner and more efficiently. Typically, MC threads are pretty self-moderating beyond that, so it's shocking to see such drastic guidelines slapped on the community from basically out of nowhere. No discussion, no real catalyst.

Not to mention, most of the people complaining about MC threads and trying to give them a bad reputation on the forum are just the typical people racing in here with an agenda that get shut down with hard numbers and trends. They get disgruntled and go into (non-MC) sales threads to talk about how mean MC threads are. It's not that different from those people complaining about how they get dogpiled, then you read their post history and find out they got called out because they said something bigoted.
 

CeroMiedo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,337
The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language. Trying to act like the thread was some holy sanctum under constant assault from Playstation fans is not helping your case at all.

And don't try to paint it as "market realities". That would not come close to justifying the silly, childishly aggressive fanboy behavior I've seen in here. Hopefully the guidelines work, if people haven't been put off enough by the usual stench of not so slick dogpiling platform fanboys tiptoeing around language they know will get them banned.

Here's to the guidelines working out.
You know, there is something poetic about this appearing immediately 2 and a half hours after thread was closed and shit tons of people got banned
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
Yeah no. The MC thread always had a bad reputation because of all the hostility from the regulars here. Newbies and non hardcore Nintendo fans weren't welcome. So the general rule for many was to just stay out of the MC thread and just lurk here and there. And one of the reasons for this was the thread starter himself. So I'm not suprised why the regulars here are now trying to defend him and are acting like they are the victims. Because of a 1 day ban. Don't act like some random drive by posts or the constant port begging were the only issues here. The new guidelines are great. A good clean up was long overdue.
When people come here, we don't ask what kind of fan they are. The regulars here would (sometimes a little too aggressively) do their best to shut down people playing down mediocre or declining PS software sales. Telling people that PS isn't doing well and why they're in their current position in Japan may come off as "unfriendly" to some, but there certainly isn't any console warring or anything.
 
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