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Pooroomoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,972
i feel like those are clearly just going to encourage the trolls to bring more bad faith and false arguments and "just asking questions"ing all the time, and the onus will be on others to correct them constantly and not be able to just dismiss and ignore their arguments.
Yup
I guess I'll have to be more active with the ignore list. I just don't have the patience.
Until now, I had most of what I see as the bad players on ignore, but I could see the quote stubs for the ignored members (causing me to look at ignored content from time to time out of curiosity, always regretting it later).

After these new guidelines, and since I expect the hot takes to get worse (though I hope I am wrong), every time someone even gives a slight hint of bad faith I will put them on ignore, AND more importantly I have changed my settings to "Fully remove all traces of ignored members". So far the latter seems to really improve the thread for me, even more so than before when I just had some people on ignore.

My only hope is that Chris stays after this. He's the only reason I visit this forum
Same.
 
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srtrestre

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,965
Oof. Quite the disappointing turn of events. I'll continue to mostly lurk (assuming Chris continues to do these threads), but I'm already dreading the future now that the usual suspects will feel more empowered than usual.
 
Oct 27, 2017
282
Sussex, England, UK
Not a big fan of what has been happening in this thread overnight. Chris1964 is a regular poster and without him this thread will pretty much cease to exist... also I have to say that in general I am not a big fan of guidelines being posted without knowing which moderators actually approved them. Names of moderators who approved should be added so, if there are any concerns, we can reach out to other moderators to escalate.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,910
Yes, it's weird but that's my opinion. I've been on and off on MC threads since GAF, usually just commenting on a performance or asking questions as I'm no industry insider. But speaking from someone outside the inner circle of regulars, there are certainly times when the thread is too comfortable with its inner jokes and takes that looks hostile to anyone not familiar with the thread, and that IMO drives away new people who are coming to ask around without much knowledge of how the Japanese gaming industry works. Ever since Nirolak left, I feel this thread never have any new knowledgeable people who are willing to explain things calmly even when those things fell outside the general consensus of the thread. The ones who stayed are either people who can put up with such hostility (with varying degrees of knowledge and how to express it) or straight up gimmicky trolls who had no interest in such discussion in the first place.

People like Ishaan (love your Zelda history btw) has met with such hostilty a few pages back that I'm amazed he's still around. Even cvxfreak who was only dropping to say "hey this is nth-hand info translated from Japanese we should be careful using it" was attacked and mocked, one of those by Chris of all people. At this point in time in this thread (I won't say always), the quality of discussion is mucked by poor choice of words and inside jokes that clamping down a bit harder seems to be the only solution, at least on this time.
I mean, sure, I can understand this with direct personal interaction, and empathize as I've ended up on the wrong side of Chris before too (lol). But my comment wasn't referring to someone directly and while "dumb shit" might be crass, it's still an evaluation and description that doesn't directly or personally impact anyone here. I don't really understand why someone would take issue with that?
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
I think the best thing, even though it sounds obvious, will be to ignore the bad faithers. I don't even mean putting people on the ignore list, I mean just not responding to their posts or seemingly innocent posts of their nature. I think a single explanation or statement should suffice and then we should carry on and not let the whole conversation circle around the drain. Even Chris realized what was happening. It wasn't the topics themselves that we were cyclically discussing, but feeling like we had to break through to certain people.

I think most of the bullet points seem obvious and I hope the main one being enforced going forward is the one on hostility.
 

Dale Copper

Member
Apr 12, 2018
22,025
This thread has entered a loop
n0qWnRD.gif
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
I understand the fears some may have here over what has happened in other threads, but I hope we can all take a collective deep breath and let things play out for a bit. cvxfreak has already implied they're willing to flexible on certain rules and I think we should take that at face value. I don't think it's fair to be fatalistic and assume the worst when it hasn't even been a day yet (which by that point Chris will hopefully be back). I do think things were festering for too long and it eventually had to burst. I just don't think we should have unfounded fears until we see drastic shifts happen in moderation.
 

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
Official Staff Communication
Lately, there has been an uptick of reported posts and disciplinary action related to the weekly Media Create threads. Many posters have complained of no longer having a voice in these threads because certain posters, including thread regulars, have replied in a hostile or condescending manner. This needs to stop. Please keep the following advice in mind when participating in these threads, regardless of how long you've been part of this community. Failure to do so could result in action being taken.
  • Sales threads should always be about that — the sales data itself. They should not be used as a guise for port begging, console/platform wars or other forms of trolling that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere on the forum.
  • In general, sales threads should focus on business and economic elements, i.e. comparing past and present data, observing trends, or making educated guesses.
  • While these threads do focus on Japan, it is not against the rules to discuss worldwide sales trends in the context of Japanese sales. It is OK to compare data from Japan to other countries, but like all posts, it needs to be done in good faith.
  • Do not be snarky, passive aggressive, condescending or otherwise disrespectful towards other users that you don't agree with. Not everyone has the same knowledge of sales and business, and if you feel someone is incorrect in their interpretation of data, constructively correct them (in as much detail as possible) instead of mocking them. Make yourself useful, not disruptive.
  • Sales data should never be weaponized or used to justify racist rhetoric, such as generalizing, mocking or trivializing the interests of another country, such as Japan or China.
  • Accusations that companies or creators/developers are showing favoritism for or bias against certain companies (i.e. Nagoshi, Harada, Nihon Falcom, etc. for Sony/against Nintendo) are not allowed unless there is evidence supporting such accusations.
  • Drive-bys and other inappropriate commentary are not allowed. (i.e. no-substance single word/sentences responses like "bomba").
  • If you're posting any kind of data, please post a link or source for transparency going forward. This not only includes sales data, but also information gleaned from retail blogs or Twitter accounts.
  • If you're posting about information that originally appeared in a non-English language such as Japanese (or a language you don't necessarily understand), please be confident as to the accuracy of the translation. If you're not confident, say so and reach out to the community to get an accurate reading.
If you see a post that goes against the above guidelines, please report it for review. If you have any questions, please DM a mod such as myself. Thank you.
Wow, I mean I respect you plenty but this is clearly missing the point.

No comments about drive-by posters which drop their hot take and are not answering to any of the replies ?

And how are these guidelines protecting the thread against any bad faith argument ? Trolls could prosper under the cover of "I don't have enough knowledge" despite participating in every thread for months.

What kind of signal are you sending by banning the founder of this thread whereas casual hostility against the whole MC community goes unchecked ?

And finally, how are Harada/Nagoshi & co given an immunity status when people were free to dash on Mochizuki's reporting because it didn't suit them ?

I can't stress enough how you are setting a terrible precedent here. Giving more ammo and validation to the bad faith posters isn't going to give you less passive-aggressiveness, but more.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
Catching up on the thread and yeah Chris if you're reading this I'm someone else who has been here a long time and hopes you haven't been turned away by the way you've been (IMO) unfairly treated. With PAL/NPD threads dying on their own accord due to both a lack of data and a lack of interest since they haven't had interesting discussions for a long time now this is the one meaningful part of the sales community left here and it would suck for this to be the beginning of the end.

The rules are fine on paper but yeah like mazi said quite well when looking at the 'sides' of the thread one side is being massively penalised and the other is not even mentioned at all. Even years after Psycho Mantis, the Frog user and their various alt accounts who thankfully didn't last long the fact that a mod who claims to have 20 years experience in these threads didn't think to mention them at all and the impact they have had is not fair, especially as they've been pushing buttons here deliberately and obviously. Honestly it's surprising that Chris only got a one day ban due to the fact that this might very well be his first ban considering all the crap he had to put up with, that was not and ultimately now has not been helped here at all.

Edit: well said as well Lelouch0612 100% agreed.
 

squall23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,771
User banned (1 month): Mod-whining and inappropriate comparisons to minority issues over multiple posts.
I understand the fears some may have here over what has happened in other threads, but I hope we can all take a collective deep breath and let things play out for a bit. cvxfreak has already implied they're willing to flexible on certain rules and I think we should take that at face value. I don't think it's fair to be fatalistic and assume the worst when it hasn't even been a day yet (which by that point Chris will hopefully be back). I do think things were festering for too long and it eventually had to burst. I just don't think we should have unfounded fears until we see drastic shifts happen in moderation.
TransEra after sweeping improvements: gone

AsianEra after sweeping improvements: gone

The worst part is that those communities at least had a few mods that were fighting for them. We don't have that luxury here.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
Wow, I mean I respect you plenty but this is clearly missing the point.

No comments about drive-by posters which drop their hot take and are not answering to any of the replies ?

And how are these guidelines protecting the thread against any bad faith argument ? Trolls could prosper under the cover of "I don't have enough knowledge" despite participating in every thread for months.

What kind of signal are you sending by banning the founder of this thread whereas casual hostility against the whole MC community goes unchecked ?

And finally, how are Harada/Nagoshi & co given an immunity status when people were free to dash on Mochizuki's reporting because it didn't suit them ?

I can't stress enough how you are setting a terrible precedent here. Giving more ammo and validation to the bad faith posters isn't going to give you less passive-aggressiveness, but more.
100% facts. i really encourage the moderation team to reconsider the guidelines. you've really set up the thread with guidelines that are what the people who don't have good intentions for these threads want.

it's just crazy, after years of people all over era acting like MCEra is some malicious group set out to destroy their favorite consoles and games, and act like we're crazy people talking about made up numbers, we finally get some moderation and it's actually to empower more trolling and more antagonizing of MCEra.

I understand the fears some may have here over what has happened in other threads, but I hope we can all take a collective deep breath and let things play out for a bit. cvxfreak has already implied they're willing to flexible on certain rules and I think we should take that at face value. I don't think it's fair to be fatalistic and assume the worst when it hasn't even been a day yet (which by that point Chris will hopefully be back). I do think things were festering for too long and it eventually had to burst. I just don't think we should have unfounded fears until we see drastic shifts happen in moderation.
i admire your optimism but it's not the first time something like this has happened and the results haven't been positive.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,981
'but like all posts, it needs to be done in good faith.'

'Drive-bys and other inappropriate commentary are not allowed.'

I don't see a need for anything more specific than this for the above complaints
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,316
The Stussining
how do you ban Chris but not mention and apologize to the thread for the years of bad faith trolling that Chris and the rest of us have put up with lol.
 

cw_sasuke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,345
I understand the fears some may have here over what has happened in other threads, but I hope we can all take a collective deep breath and let things play out for a bit. cvxfreak has already implied they're willing to flexible on certain rules and I think we should take that at face value. I don't think it's fair to be fatalistic and assume the worst when it hasn't even been a day yet (which by that point Chris will hopefully be back). I do think things were festering for too long and it eventually had to burst. I just don't think we should have unfounded fears until we see drastic shifts happen in moderation.

You arent wrong but i think most of the disappointment comes from the fact that we know that the threads have been watched over by Mods for a long time and if thats the result its just a bit underwhelming.

Of course everyone should be civil and all but it seems like only a certain group of the community is really being adressed and some of the biggest trolls always made sure to be very civil while posting bad faith. So actual relying on data and its conclusion is less worth than posting BS - as long as you word it friendly ?

Its no coincidence that the market where we get the most data is is making some people so uncomfortable to be part of the threads with deflecting and starting some shit. Literally coming into a thread about japanese sales data only to debate and argue why its not as important and all.

Well maybe im wrong and this will work otherwise but i doubt it considering the community. There is just a large part of the community who isnt interested in arguing based on data and this thread is one of the few where you cant get away with too much BS because everyone has access to most data to call you out on it.

People want to champion their consoles and games so bad that being in this kind of environment can be a shock if you are presented with data that might not back the claims you have as a fan of certain systems and series.
 

AaronC

Member
Oct 29, 2017
124
What I say next may count as backseat modding, and as such is bannable, but so be it: all that needed to happen here was the thread to be locked and let everybody cool down. I don't know that selectively banning Chris and Chris alone wasn't the worst choice available.

Modding a message board is an unenviable task. There is a perpetual element of "can't win, no matter what you do". But MC is NOT a bad community on this board regardless of how it's spoken of in other threads on this board - threads which are arguably more toxic and lower quality in terms of data driven discussion. If the light of moderation is being cast upon the regulars of this community who keep the discussion going every week in spite of drive-by bad-faith contributors, rather than on said bad-faith actors, then I don't know, I think we've probably gone wrong somewhere. I know that mods will say everyone is moderated to the same standard, but when we can all see that one poster and one poster alone has been banned, it leaves a bitter taste.

Chris is under no obligation whatsoever to provide the MC threads every week. It will be all our loss if this makes him decide it's not worth it.
 

Ximonz

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,468
Taiwan
As a lurker I can only say I disagree with majority of the guideline and especially the ban.

this is disappointing.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,739
Italy
If I were Chris, I wouldn't come back (but please, tell me if you're going elsewhere). I've been following him since early days of GAF (cvxfreak was used to open sales threads back than, haha) and he's the most valuable resource when it comes to Japanese sales. Also, I always stand with people going against power for the right motives---if Chris hand't gone against a moderator probably he wouldn't have been banned; trolls are not as brave.

I'm baffled by the fact that, if those rules are general rules and not specifically imposed on these threads from now onwards, very few actions (if none) were taken by the mods before. Still, the Japanese market will run on its own without caring much about what users are writing here and developers' actions are showing, more than anything else, what are market trends.
 

P Diddy

Member
Jul 1, 2020
874
I think most of the staff post bullet points are self explanatory, but 4,6, and 8 are the ones that I disagree with. Like others mentioned, point 4 could give trolls/bad faith actors cover to concern troll more so than ever. 6 seems unreasonably strict considering the mountains of evidence over the years of certain company officials' biases. 8 feels unnecessary. Most users cite their data sources fine, and I read it as potentially preventing posters with retailer/ company insider info from posting their info.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
i never even seen anyone in these threads having a problem with unsourced data being posted. whenever it happens it's from a poster we trust not to be posting made up bullshit.

edit: and of course, the rule about not questioning the pure intentions of big executives is absolutely hilarious as well. let's all act dumb, why don't we.
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
Amazing that for years people can talk shit and hurl insults at Media Create threads and go entirely unactioned, often even in the PlayStation OT which is frequented by multiple mods and admins but we draw the line at making jokes and criticising the decisions of well paid executives at Publishers who couldn't give a shit what a forum on the internet thinks.

I'm sure Kondo is really torn up about having to include his yearly "No really, we don't hate Switch" message in interviews before Falcom's annual release.
 

Kanann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,170
Imagine community that exist for decade need those poopoo to please the discord warrior trolls.

Is this alt-right try to James Gunning MC thread?


Finally I can join both DCEU and MCU.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,910
i never even seen anyone in these threads having a problem with unsourced data being posted. whenever it happens it's from a poster we trust not to be posting made up bullshit.
Most of the data is pretty easily verifiable too. I mean most people just search numbers at GDL or the old weekly or whitepaper threads on NG/Era.

I miss Geimin.net. Or Shrine of Data if you really want to go back.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,056
Amazing that for years people can talk shit and hurl insults at Media Create threads and go entirely unactioned, often even in the PlayStation OT which is frequented by multiple mods and admins but we draw the line at making jokes and criticising the decisions of well paid executives at Publishers who couldn't give a shit what a forum on the internet thinks.

I'm sure Kondo is really torn up about having to include his yearly "No really, we don't hate Switch" message in interviews before Falcom's annual release.
Hey Oregano, they did it for you cause people keep bullying you.
 

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
Beyond the questionnable guidelines which I elaborated on in my post above.

Just Wow at banning Chris. Where's the respect in that ?

The guy provides every week for years a impeccable thread about the Japanese market. He is a pillar of this community and you ban him just like that ? It must be so disheartening after all the effort he put.

If you were really concerned about improving the thread, you would be discussing it with him, privately. Because he knows probably the most about these threads than everyone in the mod team. It is okay to admit that you are not knowledgeable in certain topic, or so I thought.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
User Banned (3 Days): Derailing Thread Over Numerous Posts, Modwhining
Most of the data is pretty easily verifiable too. I mean most people just search numbers at GDL or the old weekly or whitepaper threads on NG/Era.
it's clear whoever asked for that one didn't like chris occasionally posting about shipments and stock.
 

Jawbreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
New York City
It's fair to say these threads should have been better moderated a long time ago for various reasons. It sounds like the staff really didn't know how to go about it or deal with the peculiarities without upsetting regular members, as we're seeing now.

I don't think the guidelines are asking much of anyone. You can distill it down to "don't be assholes, include data and evidence where necessary, and don't troll or post dumb drive-bys." If someone is arguing in bad faith, report them and let mods deal with the matter if they are in fact arguing in bad faith. Or ignore them. These guidelines aren't there to be selectively applied.
 

Kiria

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,624
User banned (permanent): hostility, mod whining, racist concern trolling, long history of the same behaviour
I know that mods will say everyone is moderated to the same standard
I don't know how can anyone say this with a straight face lol.. we had that racist 343 person that didn't get perma'd until a whole community push the mods to perma ban him

plus we still have another person close with the admins/mods that had multiple bans bout racisim and if that's any another user they would have been perma'd a long time ago
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
I don't think the guidelines are asking much of anyone. You can distill it down to "don't be assholes, include data and evidence where necessary, and don't troll or post dumb drive-bys." If someone is arguing in bad faith, report them and let mods deal with the matter if they are in fact arguing in bad faith. Or ignore them. These guidelines aren't there to be selectively applied.
except it's not. most of the guidelines read like they haven't paid attention at all to people here complaining about trolls all these years, and instead take into consideration what the trolls want to have a more fun time posting here.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
User Banned (1 Week) - Antagonizing other users
Amazing that for years people can talk shit and hurl insults at Media Create threads and go entirely unactioned, often even in the PlayStation OT which is frequented by multiple mods and admins but we draw the line at making jokes and criticising the decisions of well paid executives at Publishers who couldn't give a shit what a forum on the internet thinks.

I'm sure Kondo is really torn up about having to include his yearly "No really, we don't hate Switch" message in interviews before Falcom's annual release.

Yep, quick search for 'Media Create' under a few users that I can think of can back this up quite well. Again, not mentioned at all.

Also I question the 'I really, really, reeeealllly want to comment her but the hostility keeps putting me off' claim(s) ITT, it's nonsense. Even as someone who hasn't commented much recently, MC threads have been 'fine' for months and months now (there have of course been bans but there are bans in every thread, referring mainly to the tone here), I could easily say just pick out week 9's MC thread of this year without even checking and I would be very confident there was not even a single ban, let alone a wave of them, at least from the 'regulars'. We all know the real reaon why you don't comment much and why you only cropped up when the bahhammer was swinging in your favour. Well let's see if you keep your word now that things have taken effect... (lol of course not).
 

hannybunny24

Member
Jun 25, 2018
537
Germany
Really disappointed by the mods. Yes, tone can sometimes be an issue in this threads but even as a irregular lurker I've seen drive-by'a and trolling under the guise of "just asking questions" going unchecked so many times I have respect for long time posters here not loosing it more often. Compared to how this community is depicted outside of this thread without any consequences ever is sad to see.
How can you set out and create a set of rules for a community without consulting it's most active parts and the sole reason this community exists in the way it does? Especially if you think they should behave differently? How do think that goes over with a tight knit group of people that have been on the receiving end of a lot of shit for years?
I can only hope Chris comes back and mods will actually try to create guidelines together with each individual community and their peers instead going over their heads each and every time because I don't want to lose the sole reason to visit this forum anymore.
 

Seiez

Member
Oct 29, 2017
409
User Banned (3 Days): Hostility, accusations of shilling
And that this all was started because a mod seemingly is affiliated with a developer (in whatever form) took grievance to people criticizing said developer by talking down to posters and mocking them for not understanding the language or having to read a book (which the mod seemingly hasn't read either).

The provided translation did almost nothing to change the perception of a poor take from the developer, but the mod took the whole situation to double down and went full scorch earth on the community.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,586
There is a lot of animosity on this site towards the MC threads despite all that is happening is people are looking at the numbers and discussing why they are the way they are and what might happen if things were different.
I'm reminded by a post a while back stating how there is no aggression in the NPD threads, and if Famitsu would stop posting numbers that the MC thread would become peaceful and it would improve discourse.
Because with no numbers you can spew whatever bullshit you please and no one can smack you down with figures and charts that have real meaning behind them
 

Jawbreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
New York City
except it's not. most of the guidelines read like they haven't paid attention at all to people here complaining about trolls all these years, and instead take into consideration what the trolls want to have a more fun time posting here.

Let's see how the threads are moderated going forward. They weren't really moderated at all, trolls or regulars, in the past. If bad faith posters (actual bad faith posters, not people who are curious about the market but aren't as knowledgeable) continue to go unactioned, I'm sure cvxfreak will take a look at it.

The rules are flexible/amenable if they don't work out for the better or cause other issues.
 

MegaXZero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 21, 2018
5,079
Hopeful but honestly not really sure if this will help. It's fine and probably a good thing that the opening addresses the hostility issue we can have in this thread, but to not have a mention of the long standing troll problem makes it feel like none of the concerns of the regulars, and part of what led to the hostility issue, is truly being addressed.

Chris's ban is incredibly unfortunate. He did get rather heated, but the accusations thrown at him were quite serious, and the attempt to clarify, in most eyes, only seemed to support his position rather than the opposition in the debate.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I wouldn't say it wasn't moderated in the past. Nibel used to be in these threads as a mod and handled things quite well before he left the forum.
 

Lelouch0612

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,200
Yep the thread already got very heated in the past around big releases but it was handled firmly and in an intelligent way by Nibel. Nobody criticized him for closing the thread or banning some users.
 

Kanann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,170
User Banned (Permanent): Mod whining, trolling and hostility over multiple posts. Numerous previous infractions for trolling and inflammatory commentary.
Thread need moderation.

But the direction of moderation to please the discord planet is hilarious instead of prioritize ERA community itself.

And can I insult CVX here? you lurking for like 200 years here since GAF and before Jesus walk on water but still pull this out?
Even Nibel and Zhuge was better than that without not making dad/mom jokes.


ps. Ishaan did nothing wrong tho, but he getting use, I guess.

(mod edit: post reverted to previous version)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,739
Italy
Imagine community that exist for decade need those poopoo to please the discord warrior trolls.

Sales threads has been existing on GAF since at least 2005. But yeah, the community came on its own a few years later. I was a regular on GAF under a different username and I'm pretty sure many others followed here on Era.

The provided translation did almost nothing to change the perception of a poor take from the developer, but the mod took the whole situation to double down and went full scorch earth on the community.

In fact, the translation and the context strengthened what Chris said.
 

hiska-kun

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,410
I don't know if these new rules are made to prevent trolls or to uncourage them.

I guess we'll see it in the following weeks.
 

Adulfzen

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,606
as a lurker, I kinda hate how rules always seem to focus more on the "optics" rather than looking at the repeated behavior of some people who will pop in this thread to post some garbage and then dip.

Those users are rarely punished because they'll use mild language ("just curious", "just asking questions..") but at the same time completely disrupt the flow of the thread.

It reminds me of the Blackbox incident with Cyberpunk where the whole moderation team got completely embarassed by the dude because he was "smart" enough to use civil language while posting thinly veiled provocation towards the trans community in this forum.
 
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