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Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,283
Houston, TX
I know this was written 8 years ago, but I found it very informative regarding Atlus failings in topics relating to the LGBTQ+ community. And with Atlus' other failings on this front with Persona 5 & Catherine: Full Body, I thought now would be a good time to highlight Mattie's fantastic work bringing attention to the problems Atlus has. I won't quote the entire article since Mattie's thesis deserves your time, but I'll quote one paragraph from it so you can get a general idea of their work. The rest of the article can be found in the Sources section at the bottom.

Mattie Brice said:
Transgender topics were blips in these games, which is why they more so provide the context of how Naoto is interpreted rather than stand on their own to inform the player how Atlus, or gaming overall, is treating transgender characters. A brief synopsis of Naoto's presence in Persona 4: Naoto is a 16-year-old detective prodigy that appears at first as a mysterious character with clues surrounding the murder cases. His appearance is noteworthy as Kanji starts feeling attracted to him, and this is a tense topic as he is apparently struggling with his sexuality (that's a whole other topic). Naoto's relationship with the group is tense at first as he realizes they harbor secrets relating to the case, but they all see him as respectable, intelligent, and capable (it is also worth mentioning that he has a resemblance to male protagonists in other Shin Megami Tensei games). He eventually uses his fan following, who calls him the 'Detective Prince,' to his advantage to gain a lead in the case. In the Jungian-like TV world where Naoto confronts his 'Shadow,' the player finds out that Naoto is female and the Shadow wants to perform sexual reassignment surgery on him. As this scene depicts, Naoto presents himself as a man because of the environment of the police force; no one would take him seriously if he were a woman. After defeating his Shadow, Naoto decides he doesn't need to become a male to succeed as a detective, and joins the party.

But seriously, read the whole thing in the link below. I'm surprised that this went under the radar for 8 years.

Source: Mattie Brice
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
I really miss her voice in games. She was one of the most outspoken writers in games and was discussing things most were just not at all. The industry failed her so hard. :(
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,283
Houston, TX
I really miss her voice in games. She was one of the most outspoken writers in games and was discussing things most were just not at all. The industry failed her so hard. :(
It's a damn shame, but I'm glad that I found this article now (better late than never, I guess).
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
The game has Naoto lament that they "will never change from a woman to a man...". Then it reinforces their femininity in a myriad of scenes by pointing out how big their boobs are and how pretty they are and how they should dress more like a girl. I fucking hate this game.
 

Lukar

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,349
The transphobic and homophobic elements really turned me off when I was playing P4G. The final nail in the coffin that convinced me to stop playing was

looking online and learning that you romance Naoto by saying "I'm glad you're a girl" (unsure if that's the exact wording, I can't remember exactly).
 

sensui-tomo

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,629
Wasn't Noato's whole gender identity based on the fact that if the police and world took women seriously, that they probably wouldnt have identified as a man to begin with or am I missing something? (I'm still learning stuff about the LGBTQ+ community so if i'm mistaken please know I do not mean any disrespect and would like to be corrected so I may not make the same mistake)
and Kanji being the victim of toxic masculinity . The game is wholy homophobic (Yosuke <_<) and homophobic lines like the "im glad you're a girl" are exactly that.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
After reading the article, I'm a bit confused. Brice acknowledges that Naoto herself only presented as a man so that the misogynist police force would take her seriously. The game itself doesn't suggest that she actually identifies as one (that Brice then misgenders her for the rest of the article is really asinine). The shadow world transgender operation is demonstrating what Naoto was trying to do to herself to feel accepted. This is the same as Kanji believing he was gay because society was telling him that was the only way his hobbies made sense, when he is actually not. Their arcs mirror each other because they both ultimately reject how society demands men and women conform to expected gender roles. It is okay for a woman to be a detective. It is okay for a man to knit dolls.

Atlus' real failure is the absence of good characters in these games who ARE trans, who ARE gay (I'm aware of P2. That was a long time ago). Lacking that, all we're left with is Naoto's shadow using a transgender operation in a negative fashion to demonstrate a point, without the accompaniment of a trans character who found freedom in transitioning.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,283
Houston, TX
Wasn't Noato's whole gender identity based on the fact that if the police and world took women seriously, that they probably wouldnt have identified as a man to begin with or am I missing something? (I'm still learning stuff about the LGBTQ+ community so if i'm mistaken please know I do not mean any disrespect and would like to be corrected so I may not make the same mistake)
and Kanji being the victim of toxic masculinity . The game is wholy homophobic (Yosuke <_<) and homophobic lines like the "im glad you're a girl" are exactly that.
The game originally portrays it as more of an age problem on Naoto's behalf than a gender one, as I recall Naoto's mother being a successful detective (correct me if I'm mistaken, it's been a while since I played P4/P4G). And even if it was a problem regarding women in the workplace, telling a story like that with trans coding, only to do a complete 180 later, is a dick move.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
As much as Atlus managed to completely mishandle sensitive topics of gender and identity, I do think people were far too eager to attach a trans label onto Naoto. The premise of Naoto's story was that she wanted to be accepted in the police force and not looked at through the lens of traditional female gender roles and stereotypes, and thus she pushed back against conventional identity by presenting herself as a man. It was supposed to be a story about gender norms and roles rather than a more specific examination of personal gender understanding.

Naoto's arc, at least as it was intended the game, was to come to terms with the fact that she could accept herself as a woman and be a successful detective despite the expectations and traditions that would usually define her differently as a young woman. Atlus handled that poorly, so I get why people do look at her specifically as an issue of transphobia... but her arc as a whole wasn't really ever pointing towards her as trans, it's just the muddy presentation that doesn't take the time to examine things more carefully creates issues.
 

Garrod Ran

self-requested ban
Banned
Mar 23, 2018
16,203
The game originally portrays it as more of an age problem on Naoto's behalf than a gender one, as I recall Naoto's mother being a successful detective (correct me if I'm mistaken, it's been a while since I played P4/P4G). And even if it was a problem regarding women in the workplace, telling a story like that with trans coding, only to do a complete 180 later, is a dick move.
that's ultimately the biggest issue with Persona 4
it's not that it shortchanges on queer storytelling, it's how it uses queer imagery in stories that aren't about queer characters
Naoto's story ultimately reads more about her acknowledging and moving past her own internalized misogyny about what women can do, but the game uses trans coding to make its point and comes across as naoto going "whew, good thing I'm not trans or anything"
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I mean, people say that Mattie is reading too much into it, but they're literally using the tropes you would use for a trans man character. Mattie is reading an appropriate amount into it.
 

Master P

Banned
Dec 26, 2019
2
User Banned (Permanent): Troll account, transphobia
Whats wrong with deciding that you're ok in your own body and you don't need to change?
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
If that was Atlus' intention, they should have made it more clear from the get-go. The way it ended up being was poorly handled & reeks of transphobia.

I agree, the body operation part could have been something else entirely. It only confirms the "trans people are just confused/ill and will feel differently about it in the future" line of thought, which is damaging. Having said that, I do understand why they'd go the route they did as it is an apt metaphor for her dilemma, but there are clearly other considerations that were not discussed.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,409
Whats wrong with deciding that you're ok in your own body and you don't need to change?

Other than the fact that it's using queer existence as an antagonizing factor in it's storytelling in P4? Nothing. The way that Kanji and Naoto's stories wrap up and how Yukiko and Chie's starts is fine. It's fine to explore your sexuality and realize that, yes, you are not gay.

You know what is a problem? Having characters literally vilify queer people because they think they're "icky" and never be taken to task for it because the authors know the audience they're playing to will feel the same. P4 is FILLED with that shit, especially surrounding Teddie and Yusuke. It's THAT yellow streak that runs through all of their games that people hate. I can chock Kanji and Naoto's story arcs as being as very hamfisted attempts of letting characters explore themselves. But all the shit about not wanting to sleep in the same tent because Yusuke's afraid that Kanji will rape him, Teddie "Tricking" Kanji and Yusuke into having "a date" at the fair so he can go off with the girls, that line of rhetoric that we continue to see in Atlus games to this day? That shit sucks and is inexcusable.

And at this point I don't think it'll ever stop because someone on that team thinks gay people are fucking hilarious as the butt of jokes. Like the writing on the wall back when P4 was still on the tip of everyone's tongues was, "This was done poorly but maybe they'll learn". They didn't. They got worse. Someone over there loves this shit and it's fucking gross.
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
The gender role angle isn't a thing. Naoto's problem with work is entirely on age. Their gender insecurities are an entirely separate issue.
 

Garrod Ran

self-requested ban
Banned
Mar 23, 2018
16,203
I agree, the body operation part could have been something else entirely. It only confirms the "trans people are just confused/ill and will feel differently about it in the future" line of thought, which is damaging. Having said that, I do understand why they'd go the route they did as it is an apt metaphor for her dilemma, but there are clearly other considerations that were not discussed.
it honestly would have been more appropriate for Naoto's shadow to manifest as like
an over the top hardboiled noir detective, the kind of mental image that people have when they think "detective" and a visual demonstration that Naoto's perception comes from a place of immaturity rather than BEEP BOOP OPERATION TABLE
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,283
Houston, TX
Other than the fact that it's using queer existence as an antagonizing factor in it's storytelling in P4? Nothing. The way that Kanji and Naoto's stories wrap up and how Yukiko and Chie's starts is fine. It's fine to explore your sexuality and realize that, yes, you are not gay.

You know what is a problem? Having characters literally vilify queer people because they think they're "icky" and never be taken to task for it because the authors know the audience they're playing to will feel the same. P4 is FILLED with that shit, especially surrounding Teddie and Yusuke. It's THAT yellow streak that runs through all of their games that people hate. I can chock Kanji and Naoto's story arcs as being as very hamfisted attempts of letting characters explore themselves. But all the shit about not wanting to sleep in the same tent because Yusuke's afraid that Kanji will rape him, Teddie "Tricking" Kanji and Yusuke into having "a date" at the fair so he can go off with the girls, that line of rhetoric that we continue to see in Atlus games to this day? That shit sucks and is inexcusable.

And at this point I don't think it'll ever stop because someone on that team thinks gay people are fucking hilarious as the butt of jokes. Like the writing on the wall back when P4 was still on the tip of everyone's tongues was, "This was done poorly but maybe they'll learn". They didn't. They got worse. Someone over there loves this shit and it's fucking gross.
For what it's worth, the director of P3, 4, 5, & Catherine (Hashino) is no longer involved with future Persona games. So while there's no guarantee that things will get better, there's at least a glimmer of hope. But given what happened between the writing of this article & now, there's also reason to be doubtful that things will change (outside of Sega legit intervening) even with Hashino not involved.
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Okay I never did the social link but you can tell Naoto to talk in a higher pitch for you? What the fuck
 

Woylie

Member
May 9, 2018
1,849
I've tried to bring up how harmful and transphobic the Naoto storyline is, but have been shouted down by people - on this forum - saying it couldn't be transphobic because Naoto's "not *really* trans." Naoto deciding against transitioning is part of the reason it's problematic!

The whole shadow dungeon is framed as trying to prevent Naoto's shadow from performing an unnamed "procedure" - obviously implying bottom surgery - and the surgery is treated as if it's this scary horrible thing that our heroes need to prevent. As a trans person, it feels incredibly familiar, seeing the very common conservative argument against "children being allowed to medically transition before they know what they're doing by liberal parents" - this feels exactly like that, the idea that we can't listen to trans people about our experiences and needs, because what if we "regret it?" (Also, FWIW, no doctor is performing medical transition on children - minors transitioning is basically just changing names, pronouns, dress/presentation etc, and sometimes reversible puberty blockers to allow the kids to have more time to decide what they want to do without going through the "wrong" puberty.)

The Persona 4 writers writing Naoto as a "gender confused" teen who ultimately ends up embracing her femininity smacks of this sort of rhetoric, of "thank goodness you didn't make *that* irreversible medical decision!" - which is harmful for the vast majority of trans and gender-questioning people who *do* need to transition, since it reinforces that doubt that cis people have about our ability to know our own identities.

Sure, there is room for a narrative about people who question their gender and ultimately decide against transitioning, but it's a much less common experience, and I think it's disingenuous to suggest that the Persona 4 developers were trying to make a story about that experience in good faith. It seems much more likely to me that the Naoto storyline was informed by some really problematic ideas about trans people.
 

Mesoian

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Oct 28, 2017
26,409
For what it's worth, the director of P3, 4, 5, & Catherine (Hashino) is no longer involved with future Persona games. So while there's no guarantee that things will get better, there's at least a glimmer of hope. But given what happened between the writing of this article & now, there's also reason to be doubtful that things will change (outside of Sega legit intervening) even with Hashino not involved.

My fear is that we've all decided to pin the homophobia and transphobia over there on Hashino, so we're willing to give future works a pass because, "It'll get better" the same way we did during the P4 days, and when we play those new IP's, it's going to be just as bad, showing us that it was always ingrained in that studio.

It's the whole, "No one in the board room looked at this and said, 'this is going to make people mad'" mad thing.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,283
Houston, TX
My fear is that we've all decided to pin the homophobia and transphobia over there on Hashino, so we're willing to give future works a pass because, "It'll get better" the same way we did during the P4 days, and when we play those new IP's, it's going to be just as bad, showing us that it was always ingrained in that studio.

It's the whole, "No one in the board room looked at this and said, 'this is going to make people mad'" mad thing.
That's what I was referring to when I said "But given what happened between the writing of this article & now, there's also reason to be doubtful that things will change (outside of Sega legit intervening) even with Hashino not involved". But yeah, I agree, & it's disappointing.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,251
I think it's kind of silly for the article to refer to Naoto with masculine pronouns because the game goes through great lengths to make sure you know that Naoto is a woman after the big Gender Reveal. (The Game is bad)
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
The gender role angle isn't a thing. Naoto's problem with work is entirely on age. Their gender insecurities are an entirely separate issue.

It obviously played a role in Naoto's decisions. She wouldn't have pretended to be a man otherwise since her choice of appearance does nothing to remedy the issue of age. Especially when Persona 5 goes out of its way to show Akechi as an embraced "male prince detective" just one game later. It's not entirely separate from her main arc regarding how she wants to be seen as a detective, it's just more complicated with additional outside elements that can potentially go beyond how it plays into the detective issues.
 

DKeygo

Member
Jun 29, 2019
98
The Persona 4 writers writing Naoto as a "gender confused" teen who ultimately ends up embracing her femininity smacks of this sort of rhetoric, of "thank goodness you didn't make *that* irreversible medical decision!" - which is harmful for the vast majority of trans and gender-questioning people who *do* need to transition, since it reinforces that doubt that cis people have about our ability to know our own identities.

Just wanted to help hammer this in: I had a friend transition earlier this year. When they were being brought to the OR, their mother said out loud, "So.... I guess we're really doing this huh," MINUTES BEFORE MY FRIEND WAS TO BE OPERATED ON. Anyone who thinks that people are reading too much into Atlus' lack of sensitivity in regards to sexuality and gender needs to re-evaluate what it means to be a decent person to someone who's LGBTQ+.

Its sad/aggravating because I've enjoyed Atlus's output for awhile and I've wanted a Catherine remaster forever, but haven't bought anything they've released since learning about all their grievances.
 

Mekanos

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Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,112
The "Naoto isn't trans, the game just uses transphobic imagery and subtext" argument is not the strong defense posters in this thread seem to think it is.

It's okay to admit a game you like has bad things in it.
 

FallenGrace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,035
After reading the article, I'm a bit confused. Brice acknowledges that Naoto herself only presented as a man so that the misogynist police force would take her seriously. The game itself doesn't suggest that she actually identifies as one (that Brice then misgenders her for the rest of the article is really asinine). The shadow world transgender operation is demonstrating what Naoto was trying to do to herself to feel accepted. This is the same as Kanji believing he was gay because society was telling him that was the only way his hobbies made sense, when he is actually not. Their arcs mirror each other because they both ultimately reject how society demands men and women conform to expected gender roles. It is okay for a woman to be a detective. It is okay for a man to knit dolls.

Atlus' real failure is the absence of good characters in these games who ARE trans, who ARE gay (I'm aware of P2. That was a long time ago). Lacking that, all we're left with is Naoto's shadow using a transgender operation in a negative fashion to demonstrate a point, without the accompaniment of a trans character who found freedom in transitioning.
Agreed on all of this. Well written post.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Yeah, like the best-case scenario is that Naoto is just written by bad writers.

After reading the article, I'm a bit confused. Brice acknowledges that Naoto herself only presented as a man so that the misogynist police force would take her seriously. The game itself doesn't suggest that she actually identifies as one (that Brice then misgenders her for the rest of the article is really asinine). The shadow world transgender operation is demonstrating what Naoto was trying to do to herself to feel accepted. This is the same as Kanji believing he was gay because society was telling him that was the only way his hobbies made sense, when he is actually not. Their arcs mirror each other because they both ultimately reject how society demands men and women conform to expected gender roles. It is okay for a woman to be a detective. It is okay for a man to knit dolls.

Atlus' real failure is the absence of good characters in these games who ARE trans, who ARE gay (I'm aware of P2. That was a long time ago). Lacking that, all we're left with is Naoto's shadow using a transgender operation in a negative fashion to demonstrate a point, without the accompaniment of a trans character who found freedom in transitioning.

You can't divorce what Mattie said about how Naoto is written in that respect from what Mattie said about how they use transphobic tropes for their character, in a game about people feeling alienated in society, and just have every character have a relative mundane issue to grapple with. P4 and P5 both do this, but for the most part they don't dare to actually show truly marginalized characters - but they certainly will try and do a fakeout with them.

The game does not tell us that Naoto is a woman, all I see is what might happen in real life when the peers of a trans guy keep pushing him to express his femininity. The game doesn't get a pass for using these tropes due to the fact that the writers probably don't regard Naoto as trans. It's still transphobic, and I don't give benefit of the doubt to the creator of Catherine on this.
 
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HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
I hope the next Atlus game there is just absolutely nothing that can be even remotely considered LGTBQ+ in any possible connotation. They clearly have no ability to do anything in that realm without pissing a lot of people off, so I think it would be for the best to refrain from any further transgressions.
 

DealWithIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,669
P4 is terrible. I picked up after folks in the other forum kept hyping it like crazy. The writing is like, toxically bad. Kanji is disgracefully written. Naoto is a nonexistent prop, whose character arc shatters just so the player can live out a bogus ass power fantasy.


I don't get why there is such a devoted following for this shit. It wasn't okay when the game released, and it's even more not okay in p5.
 
May 9, 2018
66
Great piece of writing and glad to see it resurfacing here.

As far as Atlus and queer issues go, the best that I can hope for is that with Hashino no longer directing the series, maybe we won't see gross shit like this in P6. Probably not, though.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
The "Naoto isn't trans, the game just uses transphobic imagery and subtext" argument is not the strong defense posters in this thread seem to think it is.

It's okay to admit a game you like has bad things in it.

It's not supposed to be a defense of the issues. I just think people have fundamentally misinterpreted Naoto's story line and try to paint her as a trans character when she isn't and was never meant to be. The imagery and the harmful stereotypes used regarding some of the subject matter are still awful and problematic, but I just can't get behind people who are pushing Naoto as a trans character to make additional points about Atlus' problematic depiction of issues. That was just never her story, and we should focus on how Atlus fucks up that story through misused ideas about trans identity and experience. It does have bad things, but I do think this clarification is important is because underneath all of the bullshit that Atlus clearly messed up, there's an actually decent message of learning to accept what you're personally most comfortable and that you actually want. It's just Atlus clearly wanted to write something more adventurous and didn't have the background or understanding of more complex gender issues to address it in an acceptable and non-offensive way/
 

Mekanos

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Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,112
P4 is bad. I picked up after folks in the other forum kept hyping it like crazy. The writing is like, toxically bad. I don't get why there is such a devoted following for this shit. It wasn't okay when the game released, and it's even more not okay in p5.

I think you seriously underestimate how bad people were about LGBT content back in 2008. Conversations about trans depictions were straight up not being had. 3 years before Persona 4 came out, a successful and beloved comedy depicted a gay man as a rapist. Not saying it was okay or acceptable, but a lot has changed in the last decade. I wager a lot of people have not replayed Persona 4 since then and plain forget about it.

I hope the next Atlus game there is just absolutely nothing that can be even remotely considered LGTBQ+ in any possible connotation. They clearly have no ability to do anything in that realm without pissing a lot of people off, so I think it would be for the best to refrain from any further transgressions.

Or they could just write good queer characters.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
It's not supposed to be a defense of the issues. I just think people have fundamentally misinterpreted Naoto's story line and try to paint her as a trans character when she isn't and was never meant to be. The imagery and the harmful stereotypes used regarding some of the subject matter are still awful and problematic, but I just can't get behind people who are pushing Naoto as a trans character to make additional points about Atlus' problematic depiction of issues. That was just never her story, and we should focus on how Atlus fucks up that story through misused ideas about trans identity and experience. It does have bad things, but I do think this clarification is important is because underneath all of the bullshit that Atlus clearly messed up, there's an actually decent message of learning to accept what you're personally most comfortable and that you actually want. It's just Atlus clearly wanted to write something more adventurous and didn't have the background or understanding of more complex gender issues to address it in an acceptable and non-offensive way/

The reason a lot of people read Naoto that way is because reading it the other way comes off as some detransitioning jazz.