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OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
Considering how Hellblade looked all those years ago on PS4, this doesn't seem like a stretch.

Hellbalde was an incredible game and I have nothing but faith in Ninja Theory but what we can't do is insert meida into the conversation while suggesting it's actual gameplay. Although I expect it was unintentional that can only stymie the conversation and push us away from having a debate in good faith.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
A console that is 6-7 years old is not the same as a PC for 6-7 years ago. Even PC's at that age without relying on a RTX 2080 are really scrapping by and limited to specific games at specific settings that sometimes compromises the experience or the game itself.

It;s one thing if the games were for lockhart, xbox series x only. It's not optimum but it's a better prospect than having to develop for xbox one s even the x.
Even still, my fully capable secondary PC couldn't even play No Man's Sky because of SSE 4.1 was required (amd cpu). They fixed that and it happened again for Apex Legends, and I doubt that changed. System Requirements knock out older hardware all the time, usually not straight up like the SSE 4.1 requirement situation though.
 

Altair

Member
Jan 11, 2018
7,901
What is wrong with it. It's entirely factually accurate, unless Booty mispoke.

It can easily be misinterpreted to suggest every title MS releases is now multiplat. They could have easily went with something like "MS will only have cross-gen titles for the next few years." Instead they went with clickbait nonsense.
 

panda-zebra

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,746
I'm trying to theorise about if the reverse was happening on PC, and can you imagine any PC gamers being happy if Nvidia or AMD took games that were going to be released for all players, but instead secured them as exclusives for their new range of GPUs?

PC gamers would (for the most part) rightly think that this was a bad thing, and that if those games would run on old cards then they should let people play them on old cards too.

Not sure why this mentality of "People who don't buy the new console should be denied these games so that I can feel special" is so prevalent.

What a bizarre, ficticious scenario you've concocted, and way to side-step the pertinent points entirely with such a bonkers strawman. There is no mentality of "People who don't buy the new console should be denied these games so that I can feel special", I think you kinda just made that up.

People who buy new generation consoles kinda want new games to go with them - I'd say that's fair. The kinds of games that aren't possible on their old boxes - it doesn't seem unreasonable, sorta justifies paying top dollar for the box. New consoles in generation 9 have huge leaps over what generation 8 offered. We're not talking about mid-gen refresh stuff like xb1x or pro that were simply designed to present the same games at higher resolutions, it's a proper new gen with hardware that improves in areas gen 8 sorely lacked...

New gen, new games. People expect that.

Not wanting simply the same old games but with more shiny and more pixels, well that's kinda the whole point of a new generation. Gen 8 consoles are beyond played out at this point... you seriously think it makes sense to keep next gen game design confined to what was possible on a 2014 xbox? People buy in to new gen consoles for all kinds of reasons, but I've never heard anyone suggest it's so they can sit back and feel smug that little jonny down the street is stuck playing games on an aging xb1. That's just fucking weird to even suggest, I can't recall a single instance of such a thing, but you see it as being prevalent..?

There's a bunch of people in this thread that have talked about games that they thought were "next gen" without even realising there was a prior gen version. Forza Horizon 2, Resogun etc. Just pretend the other version doesn't exist and it won't make any difference that it exists.
Resogun was a next gen game. The ps3 version came out, what, a year later? At half the frame rate, way lower res, some pretty mushy IQ, massively pared back particle effects, some pre-baking to simulate the ps4's GPGPU stuff. That was a late downport and it showed. Sure, it's a feat that they even managed to ship a version that's a commendable representation of Resogun, but don't pretend for a minute that it's at all on par with the ps4 original or that its existence somehow detracts from the original's "next gen" game status. It was slick as and a proper slice of new gen launch game material.
 

Kayotix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,312
If that's the case I may go ps5 first then xbox once true exclusives that use the power of the console are released.

We will see I guess.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,157
The article makes it sound extremely misleading as to what "exclusives" mean. To a casual reader, it makes it seem like PS5 will have every game XSX has. They could've easily said "All First Part Xbox games will be on X1 as well," or something along those lines. That is a console war baiting headline if I ever saw one.

That's not what exclusive means. Feels to me like the problem you are describing is not the headline, but that you are suggesting the general public have poor reading comprehension.

Indie games that want to make a name for themselves could only be launching on it...we don't know what is going to launch. What we do know is that Microsoft will be making cross-gen titles...and titles that you can't get on Playstation or Switch (hence exclusive). So factually that headline is incorrect.

Ok that I can agree with. Perhaps it should be "Microsoft will not be making any Xbox Series X exclusive games for launch" or similar.

Feels like a minor inaccuracy though. I doubt many indies without a Microsoft publishing deal will even have devkits.
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
So you think Microsoft don't use the SSD ?

Games will speak.
I'm saying they basically can't use it to it's fullest if they need to ensure their games work the same on the Xbox One. And we're talking about more than just quicker initial load times. We're talking about streaming in greater and finer detail in your immediate surroundings that isn't possible on HDD, and even game design based on that super fast loading that HDD simply would break trying to implement. So Xbox One games simply cannot feature these game design elements and thus the Series X can't either in its launch titles if this is how it will be. Imagine a game where you regularly go through portals or you switch the world state around you instantly. Such games might not be possible on Xbox One and neither will they be on Series X.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
People are talking like Sony are coming out with Spider-Man 2, Horizon 2 and God of War 2 in the first year exclusively for PS5.

Sony might have some exclusive stuff but their record on good launch games isn't good whereas Microsoft perhaps slightly edges it but generally you end up waiting for those year 2 games and oh shit that's exactly what Microsoft is doing with their next gen only stuff. The way people are talking you think Microsoft is going cross gen with everything for eternity.

We don't even know what the games are, does it matter as long as the game is good?

Who is to say Sony don't go cross gen with the launch titles too.

I feel people are losing the plot over this.

Microsoft don't make enough new games.

Microsoft are making more new games.

But they aren't eye melting never seen before console tech that does.......new game stuff year one, who cares what the game is, they aren't using stuff.

You will enjoy Last of Us 2, Halo Infinite, Tsushima, Forza, 3rd party, maybe a decent next gen only game and wait a year or two for the next big hitters as usual.
 

BuggeryBugz

Member
Oct 29, 2017
716
When these consoles launch, XSX games will look just as good as PS5 games. There is no way that MS and their studios will lack certain features in their next gen games because they are developing for base hardware and give Sony another advantage.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Switch wasn't launching for 500 bucks against a PS5 and targeting the same high end customer base and audience.

Just because something works for Nintendo it doesn't mean that it's gonna work for everyone else.

Between no exclusives, PC and xCloud the reasons to pick up a new Xbox are slimmer compared to usual console launches. You used BotW as an example but even for 2017 it was clear that you needed a Switch for Odyssey, Splatoon 2, XBC 2 etc.

I don't think that MS strategy is wrong for the situation they are in right now....but it will make them look bad if Sony shows off a handful of heavy hitters that are PS5 only.

It will only look bad if third party is impacted and plays worse on that $500 system. You will see first hand the differences between Halo Infinite for example on a vanilla Xbox One and a Series X like you do now with a nVidia 970 and a 2080ti.

How is it ignoring if all your games work on PS5, and if you were one of the first 40-50 million owners of PS4 are satisfied and see when they show it the benefits of a next gen system?

No one is losing? When you have to buy a new system you get new gen games? Has always been this way for Sony and Nintendo for like forever?

It's MS who is trying to blur the lines.

Microsoft no longer believes people have to start over right away. Why all of the sudden abandon Xbox One X owners for example?

Just like anyone who bought a video card 3 years ago don't need to all of the sudden upgrade. Games are scalable nand eventually when needed old technology dies off. Just like support for an iPhone 4, Apple does not firce people to upgrade annually, only the hardcore do.

I'll be tremendously surprised if Sony takes this approach...mostly because they don't have to...they are giving PS4 a last hurrah of incredible games this year...no need to force launch titles to be playable on both...
They will either cross gen a few games or they will do what they usually do, wait a couple of years before the heavy hitters come. Either way most new system owners are mainly playing third party. So I will say again, what will you say if the multiplat games play better on Series X than on PS5?
 

lemonade

Member
May 8, 2018
3,044
With Xbox One S as a baseline, the games are either going to run 720p 20fps on Xbox One S or drag down the graphics of Series X. Very likely it's both.

Also, the new Hellblade trailer is a cinematic trailer, not indicative of gameplay.
 
Feb 26, 2018
2,753
I understand the business will behind this decision. Hooray. Cheers. I'm happy for MS shareholders and budget gamers.

But please stop with downplaying obvious game design limits waving with a 'but scalability' argument.

I'll give you a few examples:
- You can't scale the physics written for a better CPU from the ground up. Either you water the whole engine to match the lowest CPU (because crossplay parity) or you create two radically different versions, and this is not an option. Microsoft's own Forza series will suffer among the first because of this decision, actually. I would even argue and say, that despite the stellar visuals. car physics this gen hardly progressed both in GT and FM, especially when you compare tthem with CPU-heavy AC Competizione, iRacing or rFactor 2. Jaguar is the limiting factor even now.

- You can't make a universal XSX/XO game with highly interactive environments(destruction, landscape deformation). You either remove the features alltogether, or they will bear little to no effect on overall gamedesign. Because naturally, you don't want to build a game around a tech feature that you can't scale. It's actually the reason why current gen games (even the first party ones) are so static and limited when you try to interact with them. Walls are indestructable, beer cans are made of solid bricks, and there is no Burnout-like game around. Jaguar simply can't hold a candle in the face of a serious mayhem.

- Slow HDD and Weak Jaguar as a lowest target = Less unique asstets you can place on a location (cuz streaming, you'll need to duplicate a lot of things because of bandwith limits), strict limit om interactive NPCs you can spawn, slower travel speeds that you can afford within a streaming budget, less sounds you can play simultaneously. If you're building your game around those features (rich sound palette, lots of unique objects to look at, crowds of NPCs with tons of unique animations to interact with), many features are not scalable. That's why the whole Nemesis system is missing from past-gen Shadows of Mordor altogether.

The Horde system in Days Gone, for example, is possible entirely because PS4' GPU can (barely) handle huge crowds. You can't scale this feature to PS3 or X360. And it's the main routine that the game is build around. Days Gone is clearly working on the bleeding edge though, I guess the hordes in the sequel will be much smarter thanks to a better CPU. And framerate whould be smoother.

- Slow CPU will actually seriously limit procedural generation in your game, especially in NMS-clone or something like Dwarf Fortress. Mind you, DF could be a tough game even for current top PC chips. And everything in DF is build around procedural generation.

- Better CPU = better netcode and way better AI. You can't scale those things down to Jaguar from Zen without hurting the integrity of your vision. The Jaguar baseline it just too low. Honestly, XBO/PS4 CPU wan't great even back then. The player limit in MP will be tied to Jaguar, the density of the Battle Royale map will be tied to 5400rpm of XO' HDD and the brains of your AI-teammates in Halo will be limited by the ancient CPU.

I mean cheer, hooozah, all hail GP and everything else. But be honest with yourself for a second, please.
Sums it up pretty good I say.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
People are talking like Sony are coming out with Spider-Man 2, Horizon 2 and God of War 2 in the first year exclusively for PS5.

Sony might have some exclusive stuff but their record on good launch games isn't good whereas Microsoft perhaps slightly edges it but generally you end up waiting for those year 2 games and oh shit that's exactly what Microsoft is doing with their next gen only stuff. The way people are talking you think Microsoft is going cross gen with everything for eternity.

We don't even know what the games are, does it matter as long as the game is good?

Who is to say Sony don't go cross gen with the launch titles too.

I feel people are losing the plot over this.

Microsoft don't make enough new games.

Microsoft are making more new games.

But they aren't eye melting never seen before console tech that does.......new game stuff year one, who cares what the game is, they aren't using stuff.

You will enjoy Last of Us 2, Halo Infinite, Tsushima, Forza, 3rd party, maybe a decent next gen only game and wait a year or two for the next big hitters as usual.

Which has been their talking points of why they bowed out of E3, gamescom and psx until they were ready to show new stuff. Specifically now Launch titles which has been backed up by leaks for Bluepoints game among others.
 

rebelcrusader

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,833
Wow this thread is wild

I will enjoy being able to play Xbox exclusives built for Xbox series x while still being able to play with friends that will not buy the new console for a few years

wild
 

ostrichKing

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,485
They will either cross gen a few games or they will do what they usually do, wait a couple of years before the heavy hitters come. Either way most new system owners are mainly playing third party. So I will say again, what will you say if the multiplat games play better on Series X than on PS5?
What I did this gen...I play multiplatform on the X and exclusives on the Ps4 ...so next gen would follow suit for me...

I don't get why we are so enthused about stretching out an already suuuuuper long generation...
 
Last edited:

GlitchyDegree

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Dec 4, 2017
5,539
This is an enthusiast forum. This place doesn't represent the average gamer. Your average gamer likely doesn't care because they usually don't buy day 1 consoles anyway. If anything, they'd probably be happy about this news because those are the people more likely to upgrade later in the generation.
This is literally me. This news actually makes me feel better about buying 1S.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
It will only look bad if third party is impacted and plays worse on that $500 system. You will see first hand the differences between Halo Infinite for example on a vanilla Xbox One and a Series X like you do now with a nVidia 970 and a 2080ti.



Microsoft no longer believes people have to start over right away. Why all of the sudden abandon Xbox One X owners for example?

Just like anyone who bought a video card 3 years ago don't need to all of the sudden upgrade. Games are scalable nand eventually when needed old technology dies off. Just like support for an iPhone 4, Apple does not firce people to upgrade annually, only the hardcore do.


They will either cross gen a few games or they will do what they usually do, wait a couple of years before the heavy hitters come. Either way most new system owners are mainly playing third party. So I will say again, what will you say if the multiplat games play better on Series X than on PS5?

Who says they get abandoned? PS4 will still have a trickle of titles for at least a year or so mainly MLB, maybe that Dark Souls remaster among a few on top of third party support?

But there will be games like Horizon 2, Spiderman 2 that obviously are not ready but will be shown/teased and be PS5 only. You can mark this.
 

rebelcrusader

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,833
I understand the business will behind this decision. Hooray. Cheers. I'm happy for MS shareholders and budget gamers.

But please stop with downplaying obvious game design limits waving with a 'but scalability' argument.

I'll give you a few examples:
- You can't scale the physics written for a better CPU from the ground up. Either you water the whole engine to match the lowest CPU (because crossplay parity) or you create two radically different versions, and this is not an option. Microsoft's own Forza series will suffer among the first because of this decision, actually. I would even argue and say, that despite the stellar visuals. car physics this gen hardly progressed both in GT and FM, especially when you compare tthem with CPU-heavy AC Competizione, iRacing or rFactor 2. Jaguar is the limiting factor even now.

- You can't make a universal XSX/XO game with highly interactive environments(destruction, landscape deformation). You either remove the features alltogether, or they will bear little to no effect on overall gamedesign. Because naturally, you don't want to build a game around a tech feature that you can't scale. It's actually the reason why current gen games (even the first party ones) are so static and limited when you try to interact with them. Walls are indestructable, beer cans are made of solid bricks, and there is no Burnout-like game around. Jaguar simply can't hold a candle in the face of a serious mayhem.

- Slow HDD and Weak Jaguar as a lowest target = Less unique asstets you can place on a location (cuz streaming, you'll need to duplicate a lot of things because of bandwith limits), strict limit om interactive NPCs you can spawn, slower travel speeds that you can afford within a streaming budget, less sounds you can play simultaneously. If you're building your game around those features (rich sound palette, lots of unique objects to look at, crowds of NPCs with tons of unique animations to interact with), many features are not scalable. That's why the whole Nemesis system is missing from past-gen Shadows of Mordor altogether.

The Horde system in Days Gone, for example, is possible entirely because PS4' GPU can (barely) handle huge crowds. You can't scale this feature to PS3 or X360. And it's the main routine that the game is build around. Days Gone is clearly working on the bleeding edge though, I guess the hordes in the sequel will be much smarter thanks to a better CPU. And framerate whould be smoother.

- Slow CPU will actually seriously limit procedural generation in your game, especially in NMS-clone or something like Dwarf Fortress. Mind you, DF could be a tough game even for current top PC chips. And everything in DF is build around procedural generation.

- Better CPU = better netcode and way better AI. You can't scale those things down to Jaguar from Zen without hurting the integrity of your vision. The Jaguar baseline it just too low. Honestly, XBO/PS4 CPU wan't great even back then. The player limit in MP will be tied to Jaguar, the density of the Battle Royale map will be tied to 5400rpm of XO' HDD and the brains of your AI-teammates in Halo will be limited by the ancient CPU.

I mean cheer, hooozah, all hail GP and everything else. But be honest with yourself for a second, please.
Agreed

but also can't think of any first party games from either side that pushed beyond the last gen In any of these ways In the first year or so
 

RedRum

Newbie Paper Plane Pilot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,365
Has Sony come out and said that they are only making PS5 games that aren't cross gen? If so, receipt me please.

Because if they haven't said this, and you are taking their silence or lack of information as gospel that PS5 games aren't going cross-gen and using it to spin a negative narrative against MS then you are a fucking console warrior.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,157
What a bizarre, ficticious scenario you've concocted, and way to side-step the pertinent points entirely with such a bonkers strawman. There is no mentality of "People who don't buy the new console should be denied these games so that I can feel special", I think you kinda just made that up.

People who buy new generation consoles kinda want new games to go with them - I'd say that's fair. The kinds of games that aren't possible on their old boxes - it doesn't seem unreasonable, sorta justifies paying top dollar for the box. New consoles in generation 9 have huge leaps over what generation 8 offered. We're not talking about mid-gen refresh stuff like xb1x or pro that were simply designed to present the same games at higher resolutions, it's a proper new gen with hardware that improves in areas gen 8 sorely lacked...

New gen, new games. People expect that.

Not wanting simply the same old games but with more shiny and more pixels, well that's kinda the whole point of a new generation. Gen 8 consoles are beyond played out at this point... you seriously think it makes sense to keep next gen game design confined to what was possible on a 2014 xbox? People buy in to new gen consoles for all kinds of reasons, but I've never heard anyone suggest it's so they can sit back and feel smug that little jonny down the street is stuck playing games on an aging xb1. That's just fucking weird to even suggest, I can't recall a single instance of such a thing, but you see it as being prevalent..?


Resogun was a next gen game. The ps3 version came out, what, a year later? At half the frame rate, way lower res, some pretty mushy IQ, massively pared back particle effects, some pre-baking to simulate the ps4's GPGPU stuff. That was a late downport and it showed. Sure, it's a feat that they even managed to ship a version that's a commendable representation of Resogun, but don't pretend for a minute that it's at all on par with the ps4 original or that its existence somehow detracts from the original's "next gen" game status. It was slick as and a proper slice of new gen launch game material.


Your post says that an attitude does not exist and then goes on to hold that exact attitude.

Had Resogun PS3 been released along the PS4 version, would you have enjoyed the PS4 version less?

I very much imagine that crossgen Xbox games will have similar disparity to performance and visual fidelity as what you outlined for Resogun on PS3 vs PS4.
 
Feb 26, 2018
2,753
Has Sony come out and said that they are only making PS5 games that aren't cross gen? If so, receipt me please.

Because if they haven't said this, and you are taking their silence or lack of information as gospel that PS5 games aren't going cross-gen and using it to spin a negative narrative against MS then you are a fucking console warrior.
We got insiders saying that Sony gonna do PS5 only games from the start. And there was some info that they moved games from ps4 to ps5
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
What I did this gen...I play multiplatform on the X and exclusives on the Ps4 ...so next gen would follow suit for me...
I'm wondering what kind of impact this is going to have on Sony if so many will either play multiplat on their PC's or something else aside from PS5?

When these consoles launch, XSX games will look just as good as PS5 games. There is no way that MS and their studios will lack certain features in their next gen games because they are developing for base hardware and give Sony another advantage.

It's not going to stop people on forums saying this game could have been bigger or this came should have had more physics. I think we are so conditioned to think a new gen means all new games not possible on old hardware. Look at the big publishers, they do the same thing and I expect this to get even more popular as development costs grow.

I think the big news nobody is really talking about is how they appear to only be relying on Halo Infinite at launch and maybe 1 more IP. Microsoft has to come out fighting and get momentum right out of the gate.

Who says they get abandoned? PS4 will still have a trickle of titles for at least a year or so mainly MLB, maybe that Dark Souls remaster among a few on top of third party support?

But there will be games like Horizon 2, Spiderman 2 that obviously are not ready but will be shown/teased and be PS5 only. You can mark this.

When Spiderman 2 comes out and Horizon 2 comes out Microsoft will also have thir next gen games ready as well. I do not expect Sony to launch with either of those and if they do they will be cross gen. I really don't think Sony is going to want to ignore the huge PS4 install base and have 100 million dollar exclusives at launch. Look at what the PS4 came out with.
 

rebelcrusader

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,833
I guess you never played Shadow Fall, Ryse or Second Son.
All of these games were hilariously possible on 360 and PS3 with less particle effects

Honestly I would argue last time around particle effecta were the "we built this for last gen but here are some particle effects that took us five minutes to keep you happy with your console purchase"
 

ShaiKhulud

Member
Oct 27, 2017
487
Kazan, Russia
but also can't think of any first party games from either side that pushed beyond the last gen In any of these ways In the first year or so
Can't say anything about XO, but on PS4? Resogun is still jaw-dropping. Second Son looks and plays good even today (replayed it a few months ago, though gameplay-wise I agree, it's very classical). Killzone open areas were huge and fun to toy with after PS3 corridors, thanks to almost unlimited fast ram.

Also War Thunder with procedural destruction and sim physics was impossible on PS3.

I'm speaking strictly year one here.
 

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
Changing Resogun in all ways possible is not like changing a massive AAA game. They'd have to have two separate development teams from the start to take advantage of both systems. I'd have no issues with that. Is that what we're going to get instead of porting up? I doubt it.
 

MickZan

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,404
Has Sony come out and said that they are only making PS5 games that aren't cross gen? If so, receipt me please.

Because if they haven't said this, and you are taking their silence or lack of information as gospel that PS5 games aren't going cross-gen and using it to spin a negative narrative against MS then you are a fucking console warrior.
Historically Sony has almost never released cross gen games themselves. PS4 only had little big planet 3 and MLB.
 

Ox Code

Member
Jul 21, 2018
376
I think the ferver in here really gets at Resetera's challenge with how cloud/mobile has influenced media consumption.

People here seem to be used to the cycle console generations, and a huge part of that was looking at new consoles as "the new shiny thing" to focus on. Everything revolves around the console. How do you measure success of a company? Console sales. What's the value of a AAA exclusive? Selling consoles alongside those games. But that console-driven look at gaming has been less and less representative of the gaming market as a whole. The console market as a whole hasn't grown. Meanwhile PC gaming has grown and mobile has completely dominated. Any remaining growth that can be found in gaming necessitates changing how you approach maintaining a platform, and what that platform is.

And for any company that acknowledges that change, of course you're going to be less invested in making this one specific piece of hardware the best way to play games (especially when you're also going to be launching those same games on higher-performing PCs). Of course you'll launch a console alongside a cloud service that for many people may diminish the value of buying a console in the first place. If you're Microsoft, a cloud, a gaming PC, a console about to launch this year and a console from 4 years ago are all equally valid places to play Xbox. The console itself isn't the point of emphasis anymore.

But try to even hint that idea to a bunch of late-30's "if digital takes over gaming then I quit gaming" people and this thread is what you get. As long as that overarching conflict is in place, trying to get at the minor points people are trying to bring up is not even worth the time.
 

Radarscope1

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,727
They have been clear about not abandoning current gen since they started discussing next gen. If you don't want to buy a new box for the next few years, that's fine. They want Gamepass customers much more than console sales.

X-Series is only for those who want the best console.

I really thought they would pursue this strategy at the end of the 360 era going into current gen. Xbox was on top in NA and Live had cache. I figured they'd be selling a service more than a device. It's like this current gen was just one long mistake from day one.