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Massive Russian military buildup near Ukraine

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Skyscourge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2020
1,854
Thordinson said:
Those posters don't like Hasan.

What exactly does tankie mean to you?
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Its not just about Hasan. There were multiple people in this thread that were rightfully banned for parroting falsehoods and Russian propaganda points, such as this conflict being manufactured by the us state department, or the us funding nazis (which congress had banned 4years ago), blaming the us and nato for escalating the conflict, justifying the annexation of Crimea, the list goes on.
These people are not leftists if they are willing to go to bat for the imperialist actions of an authoritarian regime. Their beliefs arent founded in some principled vision of a better world, but anti western spite.
 
Thordinson

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,081
Skyscourge said:
Its not just about Hasan. There were multiple people in this thread that were rightfully banned for parroting falsehoods and Russian propaganda points, such as this conflict being manufactured by the us state department, or the us funding nazis (which congress had banned 4years ago), blaming the us and nato for escalating the conflict, justifying the annexation of Crimea, the list goes on.
These people are not leftists if they are willing to go to bat for the imperialist actions of an authoritarian regime. Their beliefs arent founded in some principled vision of a better world, but anti western spite.
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I get a lot of that. And justifying the annexation of Crimea is pretty messed up. Though, I don't think much of the other stuff makes one a tankie but rather that they have blind spots that need to be sorted out.

Nah. They are Leftists. They just need to realize that anti-imperialism is not just solely anti-American imperialism but all imperialism. Leftists can hold bad views just as Liberals and Conservatives can.
 
Out 1

Out 1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
298
Weirdly this looks like a de-escalation. At least I hope it is.
I know Ukrainians loath this, but Kyiv holds a huge symbolic value for Russians. There is still no casus belli (for internal use) to justify bombing it. It's no Chechnya or Syria, where the population is unfortunately viewed as Other.
 
Ont

Ont

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,053
LegendofJoe said:
Thanks for the correction. At least that's one less thing Putin and his buddies can point to if they ever feel bold enough to interfere with Finland's sovereignty.
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That would be extremely difficult and I don't see that happening even if Finland remains outside of NATO. Unlike Ukraine, Finland does not have a Slavic population and most people strongly identify as Finns or Swedish Finns. Occupation of a country like that would be extremely difficult.

It would badly hurt the invader as well. Finland has modern and well maintained armed forces, and the Finnish landscape acts as a natural barrier to the invaders.

It seems like a massive struggle for Russia to be able to manufacture a reason to occupy Ukraine. I can only imagine how hard that would be with a country which usually scores best on global charts for corruption, democracy, and press freedoms.
 
eonden

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,087
Finland is part of the EU and Eurozone. EU would be forced to answer with force.
It makes no sense to talk about that right now.
 

Deleted member 14518

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,731
Out 1 said:
Weirdly this looks like a de-escalation. At least I hope it is.
I know Ukrainians loath this, but Kyiv holds a huge symbolic value for Russians. There is still no casus belli (for internal use) to justify bombing it. It's no Chechnya or Syria, where the population is unfortunately viewed as Other.
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And the Finn's would probably kick their ass again.
 

Skyscourge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2020
1,854
Thordinson said:
I get a lot of that. And justifying the annexation of Crimea is pretty messed up. Though, I don't think much of the other stuff makes one a tankie but rather that they have blind spots that need to be sorted out.

Nah. They are Leftists. They just need to realize that anti-imperialism is not just solely anti-American imperialism but all imperialism. Leftists can hold bad views just as Liberals and Conservatives can.
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I guess thats fair. But still, pushback is needed, especially when many other popular left voices besides Hasan are repeating the same talking points and pitfalls in their thinking.
 
Serpens007

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,131
Chile
Maquiladora said:
I would say it was made months ago.
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mugurumakensei said:
Let's be honest the decision was made weeks or months ago and it's just been a scramble to adjust plans enough to make things ambiguous enough for the local audience based on the metadata showing the original target date of 2022/02/16
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While I think that the option has been on the table since ages, I think that most of this time Putin has been bluffing, finding out how much he can push the line and get what he wants before pulling a trigger. He has been called on all of his bluffs so all there's left is to pull the trigger, unless in all of his theatrics his government pulls something out of their asses to keep dragging this.
 
Cerulean_skylark

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Thordinson said:
Nah. They are Leftists. They just need to realize that anti-imperialism is not just solely anti-American imperialism but all imperialism. Leftists can hold bad views just as Liberals and Conservatives can.
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Some leftists have become confused thinking that being left = no justification for fighting EVER. is my take. They see the potential for war and any engagement in that war is unjustified.

Which is ironic since some of those same people trot out the "no tolerance for intolerance" mantra.
 
Thordinson

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,081
Cerulean_skylark said:
Some leftists have become confused thinking that being left = no justification for fighting EVER. is my take. They see the potential for war and any engagement in that war is unjustified.

Which is ironic since some of those same people trot out the "no tolerance for intolerance" mantra.
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I think it's that and some think that this is NATO expanding which would be a form of imperialism to many of them. As always, there are tons of different views that lead them to come to the same conclusions.

I'm a Leftist. I don't like war nor many things NATO has done. It's clear that Russia is the aggressor here and the imperialist.
 
Greenpaint

Greenpaint

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,890
Tovarisc said:
afaik Putin is on record saying that Finland never should have been granted independence in 1917 and that it's mistake that should be corrected.
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Here is how we feel about the situation. Latest surveys, December 2021:

VL1Ok2H.png
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LegendofJoe

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,086
Arkansas, USA
Thordinson said:
I think it's that and some think that this is NATO expanding which would be a form of imperialism to many of them. As always, there are tons of different views that lead them to come to the same conclusions.

I'm a Leftist. I don't like war nor many things NATO has done. It's clear that Russia is the aggressor here and the imperialist.
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Leftists that are against NATO don't know what they're talking about. Mutual defense pacts increase the cost of war and make it less likely. They prevent war, it's why smaller countries that cannot defend themselves against imperialist powers alone want to join them.

Imagine a world where the entire Middle East is committed to a mutual defense pact and the African Union has done the same for smaller African nations. That is how world peace will be achieved.
 
Thordinson

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,081
LegendofJoe said:
Leftists that are against NATO don't know what they're talking about. Mutual defense pacts increase the cost of war and make it less likely. They prevent war, it's why smaller countries that cannot defend themselves against imperialist powers alone want to join them.

Imagine a world where the entire Middle East is committed to a mutual defense pact and the African Union has done the same for smaller African nations. That is how world peace will be achieved.
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One can be against the things NATO has done and not be against mutual defense pacts or even NATO as a whole.
 
thewienke

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,959
Greenpaint said:
The graph I posted is the "Yes" -category. 17% says "no opinion" and only 18% say "No". Page 28 of the report.

I imagine the numbers answering "No" would decrease if there was a more immediate threat.
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That makes more sense. I'd probably safely lump that 17% in with "Yes" ultimately.

Plus 15-20% of responses on really any survey are dumb so that makes sense.
 
Senator Toadstool

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
todays conference really made putin seem sad.

that doesn't mean he's not gonna invade (he will IMO) but the whole show just seemed pathetic
 
Ont

Ont

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,053
Thordinson said:
I think it's that and some think that this is NATO expanding which would be a form of imperialism to many of them. As always, there are tons of different views that lead them to come to the same conclusions.

I'm a Leftist. I don't like war nor many things NATO has done. It's clear that Russia is the aggressor here and the imperialist.
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There is nothing imperial about NATO. I think people often confuse NATO with separate US military operations and foreign policy failures. People in this very thread have referred to past conflicts - in which NATO was not involved in - as NATO operations.

People who see NATO with imperial ambitions don't know its history or understand the organisation.

 
Yahsper

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,528
Thordinson said:
One can be against the things NATO has done and not be against mutual defense pacts or even NATO as a whole.
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Yes, all the bad NATO has done. Like...? Allow sovereign countries to decide to join it?

The term 'NATO expansion' as a whole is nonsense and is a reversal of reality. It makes it seem like NATO is forcefully expanding its border as if it were an empire by itself. Instead it's countries saying 'hey, we don't feel safe, we want to join this security coalition'.
 
Ont

Ont

Prophet of Truth
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Oct 29, 2017
2,053
Corbyn is an idiot like his anti-vaxxer brother is. Putin has only benefitted from Farage and Corbyn being his apologists.
 
Mobius 1

Mobius 1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,142
North Point, Osean Federation
Starting to get genuinely concerned about this. Not that I wasn't worried about the innocent Ukranians and Russians before, but the worldwide impact of a war in Europe would be dire. And this pattern of behavior from Mr. Putin isn't helping.

I know nothing of geopolitics. I just have a unsettling feeling about it that goes past the brinkmanship on display here.
 
TheGummyBear

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,791
United Kingdom
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