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Bionicman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
703
I mean, I am confused. So you're confirming that massing of these arms by a world power means they are about to fuck with a smaller country, because it looks like you gave an example and proof of follow through by the US when it starts to move its green men around, lol.

Its not like after all those incidents you mentioned the US sat back and chilled, lol.

The reason why many anti imperialists start to veer into whataboutism territory is that no one holds the US accountable, while the US is dealing sanctions against Russia and China for their Imperialism. It's peak irony and shows the imbalance in the world geopolitical order, though China is also getting into the untouchable territory alongside the US, Russia has a lot to go.

If we're citing shit that happened in the 19th century then we've lost the plot.

Let's at least stick to comparisons involving the geopolitical reality of a post WW2 and post founding of the United Nations world.

But how else are they gonna blame this on the US/NATO???

Well to be fair the US increased its Imperialist adventurism a lot post WW2 when confronting the Soviet Union and spread of communism was the main agenda. Toppling elected rulers, backing tyrants, invasions etc...etc... The point I believe isn't to blame what's happening on the US, what's happening is on Russia wholly, but to highlight that the US who is taking a moral stand against Russian Imperialism has and is engaging in the same type of Imperialism, the problem is that it's the US that leads the sanctions against Russian Imperialism while never suffered a single consequence for its own Imperialist actions.

But that's not a conversation for this thread I guess, apologies for any derailment.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,127
Chile
Their words don't match their actions. They might play it cool to keep the population calm and the economy from collapsing, but if you look at what they're doing in terms of training up civil defense forces, drawing up plans for a potential evacuation of Kyiv, requesting lethal aid, etc., it's clear they don't think an invasion is particularly unlikely.

Also, if we're being selective about what the Ukrainians are saying, let's not forget that they talked about uncovering a Russian coup attempt as recently as November.

Ukraine has uncovered Russian-linked coup plot, says president | Ukraine | The Guardian

Volodymyr Zelenskiy says there is evidence of ‘coup d’état’ being planned for early December

Better safe than sorry is wise words to go by.

But it's not unwise to, yeah, bring down a notch alarms if the very countrie's officials want that to happen. I mean the very country is what matters the most here, not if the US is right or wrong.
 

Cass_Se

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,124
What does Central America have to do with Ukraine again? This is literally whataboutism. The Spanish-American war? Seriously.

I swear if it was the 40s some people would go "yeah, maybe nazis are genociding jews, grinding POWs to death and massacring population of eastern Europe by the millions, but the Phillipines!"

I get it, American imperialism is bad and US troops did commit some heinous crimes. But this is a clear cut situation in which Russia is the bad guy and engaging into any whataboutism is just misguided and asinine. Why are you defending the fascist regime that suppresses opposition, codified anti-LGBT laws, runs labor colonies and has repeatedly occupied regions of neighboring countries. Why.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
17,976
Their words don't match their actions. They might play it cool to keep the population calm and the economy from collapsing, but if you look at what they're doing in terms of training up civil defense forces, drawing up plans for a potential evacuation of Kyiv, requesting lethal aid, etc., it's clear they don't think an invasion is particularly unlikely.

Also, if we're being selective about what the Ukrainians are saying, let's not forget that they talked about uncovering a Russian coup attempt as recently as November.

Ukraine has uncovered Russian-linked coup plot, says president | Ukraine | The Guardian

Volodymyr Zelenskiy says there is evidence of ‘coup d’état’ being planned for early December
The "coup" thing was part of an ongoing struggle with Ukrainian oligarchs. Same presser he went on a rant against an independent journalist that leaked how his office fucked up a major op to capture a bunch of Russian mercenariesn so there's a whole bunch of things at play there.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,041
Seattle
Sweden's FM Ann Linde state of foreign policy address.

www.government.se

Statement of Foreign Policy

On 16 February, Minister for Foreign Affairs Ann Linde presented the 2022 Statement of Foreign Policy in the Riksdag. Check against delivery.

Mr Speaker,


Our security situation is serious. Russia's increasingly confrontational rhetoric and military activities, both visible and covert, are unacceptable. The heightened Russian military presence at Ukraine's borders and Russian demands for security guarantees threaten the core of the European security order.


The European security order is not negotiable. Standing up for Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity is essential for the security of Europe as a whole.


Ukraine, like Sweden, has the right to make its own security policy choices. It is not Russia's place to dictate these through threats and violence. The rules of international law on state sovereignty and political independence are part of the European security order.


The way forward in terms of reducing tensions is continued dialogue and diplomacy, but at the same time we must prepare for the possibility of Russia choosing a different path.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,946
I don't know, just commenting that the Ukranian officials, you know, the country that actually has all these troops on their borders, seem much less concerned about this than US officials. Maybe the invasion happens and the Ukranians were wrong and the US intelligence was right. But it's weird that the country being threatened doesn't view this as a threat, don't you think?
They don't actually believe that. They aren't stupid. They are just trying to do their best to maintain calm and to avoid further economic damage. Do you really expect him to come out and say "Yep Russia is on the way! Everyone panic!"??? Of course they aren't going to say that.


There is a literal fully supplied and heavily reinforced army on their border belonging to a country that has already invaded their country once in the last decade. We have seen multiple countries pull their embassy staff and advice their citizens to leave the country. There has also been a plethora of travel advisories issued.


This whole narrative that the western news agencies are just pushing needless fear mongering is ridiculous and it needs to stop.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,041
Seattle
This is apparently a big deal? UK to scrap Golden Visas.

www.thetimes.co.uk

UK scraps golden visas over Russian dirty money fears

Priti Patel will scrap Britain’s so-called golden visa scheme within days in a bid to halt the flow of Russian “dirty money” into the UK.The Tier 1 investor vis

Priti Patel will scrap Britain's so-called golden visa scheme next week in a bid to halt the flow of Russian "dirty money" into the UK.

The Tier 1 investor visa gives rich foreigners who are willing to bring millions of pounds to Britain a fast-track to settlement in the UK.
 

Harp

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,206
User banned (2 weeks): trolling
If we're citing shit that happened in the 19th century then we've lost the plot.

Let's at least stick to comparisons involving the geopolitical reality of a post WW2 and post founding of the United Nations world.

Well, there's Iraq. Which much like this fast approaching war, the media also lied us into a frenzy in order to support.

I think it was after ww2, but maybe I have my dates off.

Edit: And Syria, and Yemen, and several other military adventures throughout the middle east enacted by the ruling class in America not to help Americans (voting rights? education? infrastructure?) or the countries these conflicts occur in, but to line the pockets of private defense contractors.

Edit 2: Oh, and the unnecessary extra decade+ we spent using up billions of tax payer dollars in Afghanistan.

BUT AGAIN- I'm not sure these all happened post ww2, so please disregard if I have my dates off and America has actually been nothing but a positive military actor in the last few decades.

Or literally ever except for a few years in the 40's.
 
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Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
User banned (2 weeks): trolling, inflammatory accusations
This whole narrative that the western news agencies are just pushing needless fear mongering is ridiculous and it needs to stop.
I really don't know what you expect us to do when we have quotes from Zelensky's party, among others, saying that Western news agencies are escalating the situation.

Well, there's Iraq. Which much like this fast approaching war, the media also lied us into a frenzy in order to support.

There are strong "if you aren't with us, you're against us" vibes when it comes to any remotely critical or dissenting voice.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,271
Because the country has been at war for 8 years and all help is welcome?

Many Ukrainians are quite pissed off that it took the US and UK this long to start sending serious lethal aid. Because those 2 (along with Russia) were signatories to the Budapest Memorandum. And yes, I know the Memorandum isn't legally binding, and Ukraine signed a terrible fucking deal that left it at the mercy of its neighbors. And yes, they should blame their own politicians (which they do. Very much so.) However, many Ukrainians very much buy into the West's moral posturing, and thus when realpolitik considerations happen, at the expense of Ukraine's interests, people still get angry over the hypocrisy. It's a growing pain, as a society and as a political nation Ukrainians are still fairly young and naive, and the overwhelming majority hasn't moved beyond the Cold War paradigms yet.

Thus. Zelensky is trying to keep things calm and keep the economy from collapsing. Loans and promises of loans are nice, but they don't replace money in the bank. And while Russia is obviously doing most of the harm (the Black Sea naval exercises, for instance, are blocking like 85% of the access routes to Ukrainian port cities, amounting to a deal facto trade blockade), the absolutely massive Western media hype campaign is exacerbating the economic downturns. Ukraine keeps repeating the same thing -- the amount of Russian troops is insufficient for a successful head-on assault on defended positions, where there needs to be a certain ratio of attacking : defending forces. Obviously, if Russia goes ahead and tries to level Ukraine with artillery, there isn't much that can be done; but there is very little Ukraine can do about that now. Civilian shelters in all major cities are being reviewed and restored up to code. Ukraine tried to buy the "Iron Dome" defense system, but that was blocked;

In the short-term, the government can't take any additional measures, beyond the current partial mobilization. Russia can maintain this readiness state a lot longer than Ukraine, so Zelensky can't afford a "waiting game of attrition".

So the message they are saying is simple: "be prepared, but don't panic"
Thanks for the well written post. Very illuminating. It feels like they got more attention than they bargained for. I get it, they don't want panic in the streets but there's a lot of eyes on this, internationally.
Well there's this


He's a reporter for TIME, which I'd think is a good source. but maybe he's mistaken

Ah, yeah. This makes sense.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,984
Media doesn't start a war though. Iraq war was started by US when they attack Iraq. This war will be started only if Russia attacks Ukraine. So stop moving the blame away from the real perpetrator. It's getting fucking ridiculous in this thread.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,353
Mm … yeah Im done with this absurd discussion.



Did you read my post ?
I did. It seems like no one understood what you were saying so maybe you weren't as clear as you thought.

Media doesn't start a war though. Iraq war was started by US when they attack Iraq. This war will be started only if Russia attacks Ukraine. So stop moving the blame away from the real perpetrator. It's getting fucking ridiculous in this thread.

Exactly. If Putin is going to invade it's not going to be because the Western media said it was likely. If he ultimately doesn't invade then it might be appropriate to explore if the West and Western news agencies were too concerned and made too big a deal out of things, but at the moment it seems quite reasonable to feel alarmed about the Russian troop movements.
 

Iron_Maw

Banned
Nov 4, 2021
2,378
Well, there's Iraq. Which much like this fast approaching war, the media also lied us into a frenzy in order to support.

I think it was after ww2, but maybe I have my dates off.

Edit: And Syria, and Yemen, and several other military adventures throughout the middle east enacted by the ruling class in America not to help Americans (voting rights? education? infrastructure?) or the countries these conflicts occur in, but to line the pockets of private defense contractors.
All you doing strengthening their point with this logic. It's not as Russisn and other states haven't been embroiled in military conflicts for personal gain in recent years now nor does change anything about this situation. Yes US has done bad stuff in past nobody has argued against that but it is fucking irrevlant to what's happening now. Russia is the aggressor (with a long history being one in this reigon) and the US & NATO are in right as it

The fact that your also just lumping every conflict under the same lens also shows problems with left simplified view of geopolitics. For that matter US & Russia don't behave same globally for the most part
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,546
The Iraq War/garnering support through the media analogy only really makes sense if we're talking about Putin and what's being broadcast to Russians. I legitimately can't follow the line of logic otherwise.
 

Kensation

Enlightened
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,837
*giant asteroid on a collision course for Earth*
"Why are we worried about the asteroid? After all, we're the ones who shot a bunch of debris into space!"
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,946
I really don't know what you expect us to do when we have quotes from Zelensky's party, among others, saying that Western news agencies are escalating the situation.
So the Russian army all along their border is just our collective imagination? Countries are pulling embassy staff and telling their citizens to leave for fun?


What do you think is happening here exactly?


Edit: Sorry didn't see the mod post. I'll leave it there.
 

myth

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jul 15, 2021
283
I really don't know what you expect us to do when we have quotes from Zelensky's party, among others, saying that Western news agencies are escalating the situation.



There are strong "if you aren't with us, you're against us" vibes when it comes to any remotely critical or dissenting voice.
You know why western sources say there are signs of an invasion? Because u dont just start doing "military drills" at both the Ukraine-Belarus and Ukraine-Russia border, u dont start creating infrastructure for sending blood at the borders, u dont start doing drills in the black sea which leads to worsened control of Ukraine's waters for no reason. If this is all caused by western media or some shit, then Putin for sure likes to strengthen that invasion theory
 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946
So the Russian army all along their border is just our collective imagination? Countries are pulling embassy staff and telling their citizens to leave for fun?


What do you think is happening here exactly?
Never said anything about collective imagination (wtf?). You could do without strawman attempts here.

This is closer to what I think:

 

Anton Sugar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,946

TIL Al Jazeera is Russian propaganda. We can drop it here, though, I don't want to contribute to more derailing. I would ask that people take more consideration when responding to criticism--calling Al Jazeera and other reporters "Russian propaganda" is super weird.

I'm not engaging with you. I'm not going to get thread banned just because you want to troll.

I literally posted a tweet/quote from Navalny, Putin's opponent, that I agree with. I do not understand how this is trolling.
 

b-dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
Official Staff Communication
Oi, knock it the fuck off or get banned.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
This is apparently a big deal? UK to scrap Golden Visas.

www.thetimes.co.uk

UK scraps golden visas over Russian dirty money fears

Priti Patel will scrap Britain’s so-called golden visa scheme within days in a bid to halt the flow of Russian “dirty money” into the UK.The Tier 1 investor vis
I can see how taking away the toys of the Russian elite could possibly hurt its leadership more than even severe sanctions which will mostly hit the general population. They love to "invest", spend the holidays, send their kids to good schools, buy property etc in the evil west.
That was the plan years ago in the US through an expasion of the Magnitsky Act.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,041
Seattle
I can see how taking away the toys of the Russian elite could possibly hurt its leadership more than even severe sanctions which will mostly hit the general population. They love to "invest", spend the holidays, send their kids to good schools, buy property etc in the evil west.
That was the plan years ago in the US through an expasion of the Magnitsky Act.


That definitely will have implications on the UK. Biden not might be kidding when he says some of these sanctions will hurt the west.
 
Dec 4, 2017
3,097
That definitely will have implications on the UK. Biden not might be kidding when he says some of these sanctions will hurt the west.
Even implementing the Magnitsky Act on a wider scale will definitely hurt several Western banks, and it's likely the reason why it wasn't done before.

Imagine a bank CEO being told that the bank suddenly has $15 billion dollars less in their general accounts, since a couple Russian oligarchs just got blacklisted.
 

adj_noun

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,173
So if Tucker Carlson is pro-Russia, does that mean a significant chunk of Republicans are now ALSO pro-Russia?

DkORiJAXsAEfQFd.jpg


The Trump years didn't do 'em any favors.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
17,976
There are Americans on both sides of the spectrum who see Russia as an ally against China, and would be willing to concede other countries' interests to Russia to get their support against China.

With the recent Bejing declaration where Xi and Putin jointly set out to undermine the existing world order, those American attempts at "rapprochement" are feeling pretty outdated.

And while I can see where they are coming from with the Texas analogy and the 1600s, Ukraine's history with Russia goes waaaay further back than that, so it's a flawed analogy.
 

Culex

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,844
Russia should be our ally, but as long as it is controlled by a dictator, it's just not going to happen.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,935
So if Tucker Carlson is pro-Russia, does that mean a significant chunk of Republicans are now ALSO pro-Russia?

A lot of it is mindless reactionary thinking.

"Oh the Democrats are linking with Trump and Russia and saying Russia is bad? That means Russia good!"

It's really damn weird considering how anti-Russia Reagan was which just further shows how the neocons lost control of their party.
 
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