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Getting them to work doesn't mean that all the things mentioned influence the visual style of the game. They are connected obviously but this isn't about art style, it's about technical design.
This thread also reminded me about a meme with one of the characters eating cereal that should be included in the game, but I have no idea why that's stuck in my head. lol
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But your art style can absolutely be dependent on your gameplay systems. Strategy games need your models to be readable at a glance at a great distance, which requires brighter colors and more exaggerated proportions, just as an example. Or maybe there's an effect you really like but it creates too much visual noise for your player to be able to land their shots in your FPS. Etc etc.
...I completely forgot Kai Leng was a thing. Oof.
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Same wavelength bro.
Oh god yeah lolwas it this one?
ME3 and the books were something special. lol
People whining and complaining over Mass Effect 3's plot points really need to give Kai Leng a break. So much hyperbole surrounding him. He had plenty of really interesting and thought provoking concepts written into his character, and people don't appreciate that at the end of his arc he;
Good. You opened this message. This isn't actually asari military command. They're busy tending to what's left of their planet.
So you survived our fight on Thessia. You're not as weak as I thought. But never forget that your best wasn't good enough to stop me. Now an entire planet is dying because you lacked the strength to win. The legend of Shepard needs to be re-written. I hope I'm there for the last chapter. It ends with your death.
-KL
Good. You opened this message. This isn't actually asari military command. They're busy tending to what's left of their planet.
So you survived our fight on Thessia. You're not as weak as I thought. But never forget that your best wasn't good enough to stop me. Now an entire planet is dying because you lacked the strength to win. The legend of Shepard needs to be re-written. I hope I'm there for the last chapter. It ends with your death.
-KL
Gameplay, Combat, UI, and inventory absolutely DO contribute to the style of a game, in ways both overt and small.
You think Devil May Cry would be as "stylish" without its gameplay and combat loop?
You think Persona would be as interesting without its dynamic menus and inventory screens?
The look, feel, and flow of a game all contributes to what you would call the "style" of a game, beyond just the surface-level graphics you see. Mass Effect, for instance, also had some intentional "style" options, such as intentional noise filters to replicate older TV shows, the way it utilizes lens flares like an 80s sci fi Spielberg film, the way its camera cuts work, etc. This includes the pace of combat, the recoil of guns, the animation timing of biotics. These are all part of an overarching style, and Bioware took particular care in shaping them that way.
That's right. We don't. But we've seen plenty of other ones that ARE similar. I even pointed out that the Virmire sky when confronting Saren is identical in one scene, right up to the shape of the clouds.
That is, indeed, what Bioware has been happy to share. Improved dynamic lighting, bounce lighting, softer shadows, more natural tones and hues. I think it overall looks great.
This is objectively false.
And my "15 minutes" is because having played these games multiple times I can speed through Eden Prime in 15 minutes.
Tidus's face is certainly a part of style, and this is how style works.
I'm not disagreeing with that, nor am I even saying I prefer the new version overall. I would even say you're underselling it, as the introduction to the first Reaper you see sets the stage not just for the rest of the game but the entire trilogy as a whole, up to its conclusion. However, there are likely many reasons for the change that include better benefitting the new enhancements, particles, and effects, or better pacing to show an encroaching evil invading a lush garden world to provide a starker contrast to the invasive nature of the entity, to possibly even demonstrating a growing alteration of the environment as you get closer to the devastation.
And, again, you'd be welcome to disagree with all of that if you didn't find it as effect in the final build. I've been there. I love Ocarina of Time 3D, but I do miss the atmosphere of the final battle.
The issue here is your definition of "pay respect to the original work" is ultimately subjective. Is changing the gameplay respecting the original work? Is altering the Mako controls respecting the original work? Is backporting ME3 Femshep into ME1 respecting the original default FemShep? Is retooling the inventory or UI respecting the original work? You could legitimately argue that those long elevator rides are part of the charm of ME1, so how dare they give you the option to skip them, right? What about class limitations, where you now can use every weapon?
Bioware's goal was not JUST to "remaster" the visuals, but their missions statement was they wanted to MODERNIZE the experience, streamline it, and make it cohesive across all three games. They prioritized what they wanted to "respect" and what they wished to change. There are things I still wish they would add or fix or enable, but it's their prerogative if they want to make those changes, or leave things as they are. Even here, we have some people saying "they've changed too much!" alongside people going "they didn't change ENOUGH". The devs are openly talking about walking that balance, and how with several months left they're still trying to find it.
I don't understand why people find the need to attack - including the original designers who came back for these changes - those who felt the original incarnation wasn't working for them and made what they felt were necessary changes to get that vision across.
It's sort of the George Lucas approach here. You are fully allowed to be disappointed that George made changes to Star Wars, but they're also HIS changes to make and it's disappointing at times to know that your initial version of things was not the intended experience, for whatever reason, and that what his actual vision was is... less... than what you perceived it to be.
You've ignored the entire rest of what I've said regarding the changes. There could be many reasons, and Bioware has already stated that one of those reasons is they're focusing on increasing effects and carnage throughout Eden Prime in other, more interesting ways. From a simple standpoint, for instance, maybe a burning fire is less dramatic against a similarly red sky. Maybe they want to ease you into Eden Prime as a lush garden world before smacking you in the face with a massive Eldrich abomination that clearly shouldn't be there. Maybe they felt it was too much too soon, because no Reaper encounter ever again throughout the entire trilogy emerges through an actual hell portal like you're playing DOOM.
(Ask them how Sovereign's doing.)
I don't have the answer, but based on the interviews Bioware clearly does and is doing it for deliberate reasons.
And they could explain everything clearly, have it make perfect sense, be impressive in its own right... and you're still welcome to prefer the original version.
At the end of the day, it's a small skybox change that is not nearly as drastic as everyone is saying, never makes a repeat appearance even when Sovereign and other Reapers show back up, and accounts for less than .5% of the entire Trilogy's playtime.
But let me know if they change Eden Prime to be all rainbows and sunshine.
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Just give all three games a cell-shaded Borderlands look.But let me know if they change Eden Prime to be all rainbows and sunshine.
So I haven't gotten a chance to pore over all 30 pages in the thread - but any news on whether or not the sidequests were retooled in the first game? The first is by far my favorite of the trilogy but the sidequests were left wanting... most of them involved going to one of 3 different prefab bases and just shooting baddies.
Also, not a fan of the washed out look in the remaster. The original's palette and choice of lighting was much more moody and striking.
Also, not a fan of the washed out look in the remaster. The original's palette and choice of lighting was much more moody and striking.
And not to dismiss this modder's work but really all they did was tweak her skin tone, thicken her eyebrows slightly and dial back the amount of makeup she has on. Maybe some minor tweaks were made to some of her facial features but they're minor enough that largely the modder's version of default ME3 femshep's face is the same as what's in ME3 and yet it looks SO much better than what's actually in ME3 by default. Also the modder's version of default ME3 femshep's face is much closer to how her face looks in the promotional art which is maybe the funniest thing about it.
Yeah, that said if there was any piece of ME dlc that you could safely drop without really upsetting people it's definitely Pinnacle Station. For completeness sake it would've been nice to have but not a big loss IMO.
Yeah, definitely the biggest bummer for PlayStation players because unlike with PC and Xbox there's no way to play ME3's multiplayer on a modern PlayStation console. Whereas if you have EA Play you can play the PC or Xbox versions of ME3's multiplayer right now and if you have Game Pass you can play the Xbox version of ME3's multiplayer right now.
I haven't seen anything on this but I would doubt it. Pre-release many were essentially expecting an ME1 remake for this collection but the end result seems to be more of a very extensive remastering effort. Essentially it's received significant visual adjustments and various gameplay adjustments/rebalances but it seems like the core of the game (including map design) will mostly remain in tact. Though based on some of the choices made with Eden Prime maybe they went in and retooled some of the prefab bases? Game Informer seems to have the scoop on this collection so maybe we'll learn more soon?
Those missions are all I can think of when people say how open and explorative ME1 was
So I've been reading the previous dozen pages of this thread or so about the Eden Prime sky change. As someone would loves Mass Effect 1 (it flops back and forth between my #1 and #2 of all time depending on how I feel that day) I absolutely understand why some people don't like the change.
The original skybox undoubtedly gives the opening mission a tangible sense of dread. And the new skybox does not. Regardless, at this moment without knowing how the mission feels/plays in LE, I can't say if it's a good or a bad change. The new skybox might grow redder as the mission progresses and the time of day changes. Or it might be tweaked in the interim between now and release based on feedback.
On it's own, I think the new skybox looks great. The new lighting, especially on Sovereign, looks way better regardless of the sky color IMO. All I know for certain is that while I may prefer the thematic look of the original, I probably won't care once the new game is in my hands and I'm replaying it.
The original skybox undoubtedly gives the opening mission a tangible sense of dread. And the new skybox does not. Regardless, at this moment without knowing how the mission feels/plays in LE, I can't say if it's a good or a bad change. The new skybox might grow redder as the mission progresses and the time of day changes. Or it might be tweaked in the interim between now and release based on feedback.
On it's own, I think the new skybox looks great. The new lighting, especially on Sovereign, looks way better regardless of the sky color IMO. All I know for certain is that while I may prefer the thematic look of the original, I probably won't care once the new game is in my hands and I'm replaying it.
The perfect Mass Effect is one that is 30% mini hubs full of NPCs with lots of talky talk followed by a bunch of shooting bad dudes and exciting stuff, and 70% composed of absolutely enormous barren planets with subdued particle effects, vast galactic vistas of the celestial sky, gentle silence, and maybe one collectable you have to traverse enormous hills to find.
I certainly enjoyed KL as an antagonist more than I enjoyed the Collectors as one.
Add voiced Codex entries and you've got the design doc template for ME1.
this... those ME1 feelings when exploring the planets is still unmatched.
I'm going to be doing a lot of frame-by-frame comparisons this afternoon, feels like.
Touching up on this, I was reading the Game Informer issue for my own curiosity and there's a comparison of Ash. The specular highlights are definitely there in the remaster, but aren't visible here in the trailer. Could just be due to lighting changes.
I think some of the visual changes come from not using an excess of motion blur and bloom like the original game (and a lot of games from that era) did.
Yup. And best of all it's one of those limited editions that doesn't even come with the game! I bought it anyway!
Unrelated, I would be interested to see how many owners of the current complete PC ME trilogy will double dip for this remastered collection. I say this because just going off of what we've seen and the details that have been revealed about this collection you can seemingly play a version of the PC trilogy right now that is comparable to this remastered trilogy via modding. I think even just based on what we know about this collection there are definitely good reasons to buy this collection even if you already own the trilogy on PC but I guess my point is that for console players this collection will probably feel like a significant improvement across the board over the originals while for PC players this collection will mostly just be a much more convenient (and potentially far less buggy) way to play the trilogy.
So hyped for this. I'm totally staying out of ME threads once it releases though. I'm not looking forward to a lot of the ME discourse resurfacing - whether its about the ending or certain characters.
I often cite ME1 as my go-to favourite. Realistically I enjoy all three games immensely and think each does at least something major to great exception where the others falter. But ME1 was a beautiful beginning and I could write essays on the emotional and thematic potency in conveying the vastness of galactic scale, in both size and passage of time, which is where ME1's uncharted worlds excelled the most. ME1 more than any game in the entire series, Andromeda included, understood the importance of down time, balancing your exciting highs with more meditated lows, and I have a profound appreciation for how the uncharted worlds served that purpose with elegant beauty.
I can also appreciate why people hated the Mako and the uncharted worlds themselves for the barren nothingness needle-in-a-haystack item hunting they demanded, and why the more focused, denser pacing and locations of ME2 was preferable, but I really adored the uncharted worlds for what they represented and the role they played. Andromeda, a game I ultimately grew to enjoy, is textbook evidence of how the power of the uncharted worlds wasn't just "an open planet to drive a space car around in". It's more nuanced than that, in its tone and execution, and capturing the wonder and awe of celestial vastness, evoking the enormity of space and time and your tiny insignificant presence within it, is something hard to do that ME1 absolutely nailed.
So yeah. Love ME1.
I came to bring misery, and remind us all of what cannot be avoided or unseen.
So on the console side it might be the best bet to buy this on Xbox because it runs in BC mode?
Gameplay, Combat, UI, and inventory absolutely DO contribute to the style of a game, in ways both overt and small.
You think Devil May Cry would be as "stylish" without its gameplay and combat loop?
You think Persona would be as interesting without its dynamic menus and inventory screens?
The look, feel, and flow of a game all contributes to what you would call the "style" of a game, beyond just the surface-level graphics you see. Mass Effect, for instance, also had some intentional "style" options, such as intentional noise filters to replicate older TV shows, the way it utilizes lens flares like an 80s sci fi Spielberg film, the way its camera cuts work, etc. This includes the pace of combat, the recoil of guns, the animation timing of biotics. These are all part of an overarching style, and Bioware took particular care in shaping them that way.
That's right. We don't. But we've seen plenty of other ones that ARE similar. I even pointed out that the Virmire sky when confronting Saren is identical in one scene, right up to the shape of the clouds.
That is, indeed, what Bioware has been happy to share. Improved dynamic lighting, bounce lighting, softer shadows, more natural tones and hues. I think it overall looks great.
This is objectively false.
And my "15 minutes" is because having played these games multiple times I can speed through Eden Prime in 15 minutes.
Tidus's face is certainly a part of style, and this is how style works.
I'm not disagreeing with that, nor am I even saying I prefer the new version overall. I would even say you're underselling it, as the introduction to the first Reaper you see sets the stage not just for the rest of the game but the entire trilogy as a whole, up to its conclusion. However, there are likely many reasons for the change that include better benefitting the new enhancements, particles, and effects, or better pacing to show an encroaching evil invading a lush garden world to provide a starker contrast to the invasive nature of the entity, to possibly even demonstrating a growing alteration of the environment as you get closer to the devastation.
And, again, you'd be welcome to disagree with all of that if you didn't find it as effect in the final build. I've been there. I love Ocarina of Time 3D, but I do miss the atmosphere of the final battle.
The issue here is your definition of "pay respect to the original work" is ultimately subjective. Is changing the gameplay respecting the original work? Is altering the Mako controls respecting the original work? Is backporting ME3 Femshep into ME1 respecting the original default FemShep? Is retooling the inventory or UI respecting the original work? You could legitimately argue that those long elevator rides are part of the charm of ME1, so how dare they give you the option to skip them, right? What about class limitations, where you now can use every weapon?
Bioware's goal was not JUST to "remaster" the visuals, but their missions statement was they wanted to MODERNIZE the experience, streamline it, and make it cohesive across all three games. They prioritized what they wanted to "respect" and what they wished to change. There are things I still wish they would add or fix or enable, but it's their prerogative if they want to make those changes, or leave things as they are. Even here, we have some people saying "they've changed too much!" alongside people going "they didn't change ENOUGH". The devs are openly talking about walking that balance, and how with several months left they're still trying to find it.
I don't understand why people find the need to attack - including the original designers who came back for these changes - those who felt the original incarnation wasn't working for them and made what they felt were necessary changes to get that vision across.
It's sort of the George Lucas approach here. You are fully allowed to be disappointed that George made changes to Star Wars, but they're also HIS changes to make and it's disappointing at times to know that your initial version of things was not the intended experience, for whatever reason, and that what his actual vision was is... less... than what you perceived it to be.
You've ignored the entire rest of what I've said regarding the changes. There could be many reasons, and Bioware has already stated that one of those reasons is they're focusing on increasing effects and carnage throughout Eden Prime in other, more interesting ways. From a simple standpoint, for instance, maybe a burning fire is less dramatic against a similarly red sky. Maybe they want to ease you into Eden Prime as a lush garden world before smacking you in the face with a massive Eldrich abomination that clearly shouldn't be there. Maybe they felt it was too much too soon, because no Reaper encounter ever again throughout the entire trilogy emerges through an actual hell portal like you're playing DOOM.
(Ask them how Sovereign's doing.)
I don't have the answer, but based on the interviews Bioware clearly does and is doing it for deliberate reasons.
And they could explain everything clearly, have it make perfect sense, be impressive in its own right... and you're still welcome to prefer the original version.
At the end of the day, it's a small skybox change that is not nearly as drastic as everyone is saying, never makes a repeat appearance even when Sovereign and other Reapers show back up, and accounts for less than .5% of the entire Trilogy's playtime.
But let me know if they change Eden Prime to be all rainbows and sunshine.
Great post. I think we all need to resign ourselves to the fact that there will be changes that float our personal boat, and changes we're not thrilled with, and it's going to be different for every fan. At the end of the day, the original games aren't being taken away. Overall, I trust where BioWare is going with this and I can't wait to experience this new, yet seemingly extremely faithful, vision of the trilogy.
I'm already doing one for Mario 35 anniversary and for EVO :P
Beautifully put.
Do you have any idea why Bioware ended up abandoning that design principle in the sequels? Too much work perhaps to make the uncharted worlds worthwhile for audiences that hated them?
Speaking of, I was listening to the Making of ME1 documentaries earlier today and latched on to one of the things that Casey Hudson said back in 2007 timestamped here:
In retrospect, it's funny how they somewhat abandoned these art direction ideals in ME2 and ME3, at least in terms of their armor designs. More dark and gritty scifi and more bulky and squared armor design.
AFAIK it was a combination of technical issues and design priorities. They experimented with the idea coming back somewhat in the Overlord DLC where you travel around the land hub in the Hammerhead, but never bothered to return to exactly how ME1 did it. Maybe in part due to technical limitations of hardware at the time relative to intent and scope, and also UE3 being notoriously fickle at handing big open landscapes until much later revisions, and maybe in part due to general directional and design changes in tone, feel, and focus.
The interview is definitely interesting to consider in retrospect, how the tone and feel of the series did shift pretty strikingly away from exactly what ME1 conjured. I know there's sometimes a narrative from people that ME2's change was all EA's doing, but every single ME2-onwards interview I've read and seen from people on the team, leads and otherwise, did make it clear BioWare really, really wanted to take the series in that direction. People like to lean on Casey and Drew as bastions of ME1, but both seemed very much down with the tonal choices in ME2 and overall direction of the project.
Andromeda was made by an entirely different team, but as I said in my post I don't think even they really understood what the uncharted worlds were to the people who loved them. Weird as it might sound, something as tiny and basic as the free Normandy Crash Site DLC in Mass Effect 2 did a better job of capturing the tone of the uncharted worlds than more or less anything else.
shinobi602 EatChildren Any clue if the Trophy/Achievement sets will be new, or just identical to the prior ones? The weapon kill ones for ME1 aren't hugely fun.
I can definitely attest to the nirvana of traversing a singular overlooked planet with the backdrop of space. But I still hate the gameplay that the Mako represents and wonder how else they could've captured that essence. Because they never did again.
You mean you don't want to get the "play through the majority of ME1 with all squadmates" achievement again, which requires at least 2.5 playthroughs and forcing you to keep certain members on your time nearly at all times?
Bummed about lack of dualsense support, but still incredibly excited.
Odd that my two most anticipated games are back-to-back remakes/remasters (Nier, ME), but not complaining
Odd that my two most anticipated games are back-to-back remakes/remasters (Nier, ME), but not complaining
I know it's a bunch of technical stuff that most nobody here cares about, but seeing them apply modern things like subsurface scattering and ambient occlusion to these models is giving them such new life compared to the originals. I'm seeing them render everything from the lips to the eye sclera with updated techniques that makes me excited to see more of them in action.
I feel that ME2 is they answering the question: what do we have to do to make the best game we can? I can fully understand the feeling ME1 can evoke, I know becuase I feel it. And everytime I play ME1 I do wonder different approaches they could have had going into the future. But the first Mass Effect was a game with major gameplay issues, and in fixing and improving them, ME2 made that kind of take of a more open design harder.
The changes in tone however are a bit parallel to that, more to do with where the story was taking the player.
Yes to all of this. Speaking personally, it was the feeling of isolation and frontier that the barren worlds evoked. The fact that many outlaws or cultists inhabited these locations just enhanced the Wild West or isolationist aspects. There was a distinct feeling that accepted forms of order and norms weren't applicable. The atmosphere of isolation also enhanced the feeling of insignificance and mystery.
There were also some distinct evocations of noir elements with the backstory and introduction of Garrus and Tali.
The duo of Sovereign and Saren was also ominous and foreboding. The gradual reveal that Saren was subjugated and the feeling that Sovereign basically felt omnipotent was a poignant moment for me. Having no hope or idea of how I'd overcome the odds had its own mystery element.
The sequels, by necessity had to dispense some of the mystery. Part of the RPG power fantasy is mastery over a world and understanding the universe. Those concepts are antithetical to some of the core themes of ME1. And it was a necessary tension because people had become so attached to Shepard as a protagonist in a way they hadn't with previous Bioware games. I see the mystery of the collectors as a way to try and reclaim some of that mystery, but it was ultimately bungled by a confusing and nonsensical final encounter.
ME3 is a particular sore point for me because I feel that the pacing and sense of conflict was excellent, with the most polished gameplay to date. This was ultimately mishandled by a conclusion that was Intellectually brow-beating and seemed to counter expectations for the value of surprise in itself without regard to the narrative weight and merit of the outcome.
But yeah, ME1 forever.
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