Maybe if you didnt need a certain percentage for loyalty missions/dialog there would have been more renegade choices made.
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Mass Effect Dev: 92% of Players Chose Paragon
- Thread starter Darkstorne
- Start date
I tend to be paragon with regular people in ME but if someone is an asshole I go full renegade. Like, there was this scene (I think it was in ME1) where you ambush a group in the Citadel and the leading guy is an imbecile krogan, your choices are trying to talk it down, start a regular fight or just shot him in the face. He's a total asshole towards you so I always shot him, to Garrus's amusement.
I assume this means that 92% of players had more paragon points than renegade, not that 92% of players were pure paragons. Right?
I always thought that Mass Effect 1/2/3 played best as a paragon/renegade mix weighted heavily toward the former - pure paragon is a little too "always brush your teeth kids!," but many of the renegade choices are insane. Generally, I'd argue that the fixed parts of Shepard's character arc best support the soldier-who's-willing-to-break-the-rules-to get-the-job-done cliche (so not a pure paragon), but not a thief or a gleeful murderer (so no go on the more psychotic renegade choices).
If that's what's going on here, it's not like the devs are wasting time with the renegade options, since presumably some percentage of the paragons flip renegade for any given choice. Still, they did kind of screw the renegade options up, as it's never quite clear to the player what "renegade" means. Sometimes it means that you're cold and calculating, sometimes it means that you're corrupt, sometimes it means you're just kind of an asshole for no good reason, and sometimes it means that you're a sociopath.
I always thought that Mass Effect 1/2/3 played best as a paragon/renegade mix weighted heavily toward the former - pure paragon is a little too "always brush your teeth kids!," but many of the renegade choices are insane. Generally, I'd argue that the fixed parts of Shepard's character arc best support the soldier-who's-willing-to-break-the-rules-to get-the-job-done cliche (so not a pure paragon), but not a thief or a gleeful murderer (so no go on the more psychotic renegade choices).
If that's what's going on here, it's not like the devs are wasting time with the renegade options, since presumably some percentage of the paragons flip renegade for any given choice. Still, they did kind of screw the renegade options up, as it's never quite clear to the player what "renegade" means. Sometimes it means that you're cold and calculating, sometimes it means that you're corrupt, sometimes it means you're just kind of an asshole for no good reason, and sometimes it means that you're a sociopath.
Most people play their characters in these games in a way that represents themselves or at least how they perceive themselves. At least fo the first playthrough. Most people also don't see themselves as evil so why would they take the option that is clearly labelled "evil"?
These stats are more of a testament that binary choices don't work well.
These stats are more of a testament that binary choices don't work well.
I always wonder whether they count playthroughs for these stats, or players, or what? If I've done 5 playthroughs of Mass Effect as paragon and 5 as renegade how am I reflected here? Did only the first time count? What about partial playthroughs?
It totally makes sense as the other side of the humanity is special through line of the series. And a result of human tribalism and inferiority complex as the new kid on the block.
My Shep was mostly good but I did choose some renegade options (including the ending. Paragon ending was just so stupid). Chaotic good basically.
Full renegade was never that appealing. I mean your still saving the Galaxy, the only difference is how much of a dick you are on the way.
I enjoy playing evil characters in games that give you a lot more freedom, like BGS games and those like them.
Full renegade was never that appealing. I mean your still saving the Galaxy, the only difference is how much of a dick you are on the way.
I enjoy playing evil characters in games that give you a lot more freedom, like BGS games and those like them.
It is antithetical to the themes of ME, which is why people rarely explored this path. This series is already way too focused on humans as it is.
I just can't imagine playing Mass Effect 2 and 3 outside of the Vanguard class. No wonder some people don't rate the games highly, they legitimately played the most boring way possible.
That said, it sometimes IS fun to RP as a crazed psychopath.
For Dragon Age: Origins, I created a dwarf noblewoman with two rules: 1) if I can sleep with it, I just do everything in my power to sleep with it. 2) if it can die, I must do everything in my power to ensure it dies. If I can sleep with it, I must sleep with it... and THEN kill it.
What a ridiculously fun adventure that was.
Westworld would run out of white hats.
But yeah, not surprising - I figure most people's fantasy is to be the hero who crushes the evildoers and is showered in admiration by the masses, not the villain who murders indiscriminately.
But yeah, not surprising - I figure most people's fantasy is to be the hero who crushes the evildoers and is showered in admiration by the masses, not the villain who murders indiscriminately.
I say that's viewing things quite narrowly, albeit the fact that not all games are good at rewarding players with far reaching favourable/unfavourable consequences.
Whether good or evil, it's not like the player has the absolute agency to determine the outcome. Instead it is about relying on the limited options that the game provides and framing and reframing our expectations of our place in the game world (vicariously) from one decision and the outcome to the next.
For me, it was never about "showered in admiration by the masses" but rather enacting the best possible decision that brokered peace and harmony propelled by nearly unrivaled power, authority and responsibility that only exists in galactic sci-fi universe. The favourable outcomes made possible with Shepard and her/his team were rewards enough in and of themselves.
Oh of course, you have a point.
But generally speaking, I think most people want to be accepted and admired more than feared and hated, especially if both routes are equally difficult. I might just be an optimist, mind you.
Most of my desicions were paragon. Although there were a few times I took the remegade path.
full renegade doesnt work for me.
full renegade doesnt work for me.
In ME3 I always made Paragon choices for my crew members, but Renegade choices for everything else. In ME2, I did a Paragon playthrough first, then did two more playthroughs being a straight up asshole to everyone all because I wanted those red glowing Sith eyes/scars.
As much as I love Mass Effect, this is where the series really went wrong. It wasn't SUPPOSED to be "good or evil", "hero or villain". It was supposed to be goody-good boyscout vs Dirty Harry. Morally uncompromised vs ends-justify-the-means, with situations that reflected the pros and cons of each ideology.
The fact that Renegade started becoming less "ruthless hero" and more "cruel and spiteful villain" is part of their inability to make Renegade really "work" as well as Paragon.
You remember how good it was to headbutt the Krogan to get him to shut up? To electrocute the merc to give you an advantage later on where the mech malfunctioned? That stuff should have been Renegade ALL THE TIME. Not cruel, but ruthlessly efficient. Reckless but cool. But as the moral choices became more binary, Renegade choices did as well.
One of my favorite arguments for a true "Renegade" mindset was from Javik.
"Their silence is your answer."
And he's... right. In a war where it's not about politics, religion, or morality - but SURVIVAL - the universe does need Renegades to make truly difficult choices that will cost actual lives. Only... the game never does this. Being a Renegade is the fastest way to LOSE support, doom species, and alienate alliances.
There was a lot of potential there, especially in ME3, but it veered too hard into villainy and nonsense to work, when that would have been the perfect time to have a "tough-love" hero come in to slap a few influential leaders upside the head to work together for the survival of all.
The game almost never puts you in a position where there are actual consequences for maintaining the moral high ground at all times, unfortunately. Like in ME1, they make it seem like it matters to focus fire on Sovereign instead of saving the Council. Like there's a chance that if you don't, you might actually not save the galaxy from the Reapers. Of course there isn't, ultimately, because both paths are viable and they don't want to make paragon players feel like they're not completely right to act the way they do. Same with the Rachni decision - in ME3 the Rachni are back whether you saved them or not, and if you did save them it's a better outcome.
This wound up being very frustrating as a character who mixed and matched Paragon / Renegade decisions based on role play, especially when they then modified the persuasion system to work based on "number of paragon points vs number of potential points you could have gotten" and intimidate to the same thing but for Renegade. It encouraged you be one or the other, and then the writing of the game made the Renegade options to tough problems generally irrelevant because they didn't would generally not just be morally dubious, but lead to worse or at minimum equal outcomes.
Most people don't like being evil for evils sake. Most people don't screw over people just for the fun of it, especially if there's a system that keeps tabs on how shitty they are.
What I'd like to see are the stats on how many people killed crossbreed priscilla from dark souls:
She wasn't evil, she asks you to spare her and opens the way forward for you. But you could kill her, take her soul, and make a sweet weapon. And no-one would say anything, no-one would know. This is how mortality choices should be.
What I'd like to see are the stats on how many people killed crossbreed priscilla from dark souls:
She wasn't evil, she asks you to spare her and opens the way forward for you. But you could kill her, take her soul, and make a sweet weapon. And no-one would say anything, no-one would know. This is how mortality choices should be.
What's the point in being a dick when it seems like being goody two-shoes gets everything done anyway and will probably net you more allies along the way? Being evil should be about favoring benefits over morals, not evil for evil's sake. When you can have both the morals AND the benefits, what kind of choice is that?
Interesting thought... what if a good path made you rely more on your real-life skills, twitch, reaction, memory, etc? Because you didn't pick immoral choices, it has drastically weakened your external resource pool. Basically you against the world with no help. But if you're really awesome, you can still pull it off.
The best justification for Renegade was that it allowed you to goof things up when the story was trying too hard with patronizing moral "dilemmas" or nerdy plot revelations.
There were parts in both ME1 and 2 where I really didn't care about the story beat I was in, like Liara and her solemn rituals and that allowed me to deject and call BS on the story with unfitting renegade lines. It takes any part that would've been boring in a movie and adds a satiric element to it. If it was gone I wouldn't have liked Mass Effect as much. In ME3 there were occasionally some Renegade lines that were worth taking but too often I just found Renegade to be intentionally buzzkill in that.
There were parts in both ME1 and 2 where I really didn't care about the story beat I was in, like Liara and her solemn rituals and that allowed me to deject and call BS on the story with unfitting renegade lines. It takes any part that would've been boring in a movie and adds a satiric element to it. If it was gone I wouldn't have liked Mass Effect as much. In ME3 there were occasionally some Renegade lines that were worth taking but too often I just found Renegade to be intentionally buzzkill in that.
I'd always go renegade or evil in these games. So many games you're playing the virtuous hero, it was refreshing to have the ability to play as a villain. Didn't realize I was one of the few to choose this.
Might be people doing what they would do in the situation making that happen. Instead of playing as the character.
I was playing as myself and was paragon up until Vermire (however you spell it) then became a space racist renegade after Wrex threatened me. Which I think was a little more entertaining
I was playing as myself and was paragon up until Vermire (however you spell it) then became a space racist renegade after Wrex threatened me. Which I think was a little more entertaining
Me2 is one of the rare games where I did go renegade quite a few times and had fun doing it. Most other games I play the good guy. It's hard for writers to come up with interesting choices though. It'll be a while before we see videogaming's The Wire equiv.
This.
I mean sometimes I'll be chaotic good, punching out the journalist as the obvious one but otherwise I'm always paragon. I mean I want to be the hero in the games, not a dick.
Whenever I replay these games, I always go straight dark side. Can't believe the Renegade Army is as small as this poll suggests
I replayed Mass Effect 1 at least 5 times, and on later playthroughs I went with Renegade. I regretted ever going Paragon, because the Renegade options were a million times more fun.
I feel like ME2 is the only game in the series where many of the Renegade options fit the title. In ME1 & ME3 most Renegade options were just straight up pure evil which isn't to say that those kinds of options didn't exist in ME2 but rather that you can do a largely Renegade play through in ME2 without truly being evil. Basically in ME2 you could be the loose cannon cop that gets the job done which you could kind of do in all of them but I think ME2 really lends itself to playing that way.
Often times playing an "evil" character just feels incredibly off for many "decent" people. Which is essentially what these decisions boils down to, good vs evil. Very few games lack "grey area" decision making to make people go "ha! sike! you're an awful person!" anyway.
Bioware at least tries, but even then it's pretty obviously laid out for you.
Bioware at least tries, but even then it's pretty obviously laid out for you.
So if they do a remaster we should all play renegade?
Woukd you even have any teamates left by the end of 3?
Woukd you even have any teamates left by the end of 3?
Paragon too often felt like the "right" way to play. In hindsight it's a rigid, binary system that doesn't require much thought or role playing once you choose a pathway, as there's no benefit to playing 50/50. Always wanted to see the system evolve into something more nuanced after ME1, unfortunately Bioware went in the opposite direction and Dragon Age 2 simplified the dialogue wheel to the point of autopilot.
There are exceptions sure, but the game design kind of encourages you to pick a side and one side is mostly just kicked puppies.