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Tagavaka

Member
Jun 4, 2018
11
I wish they'd have kept it as is wow.

One of the things that always bothered me wasn't that in all 4 games none of the human female squad members were available as love interests to female characters.

Sapphics couldn't romance Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Cora. It was either a non-human squad member or a crew member (crew member romances got lesser dialogue and were not as integrated into the story)

Liara was the best romance in the game anyway but it just always bothered me how unequal it all was
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
ME2 was highkey sexist as fuck.
Trying to unravel and understand that mindset where Miranda & Jack's outfits = A-OK, but Jack's F/F relation = BAD is a mess. I love ME and ME2/3 but fuck I still hate how big a shift there was from ME to ME2 away from the retro Hard Sci-fi aesthetic to this more modern sleek and sexy approach. Particularly when it came to character, outfit and armor designs. Like I thought it was kind of loud and obvious how Ashley first appeared in White and Pink armor in ME1, but fuck that was nothing compared to the body suit and harness we got with Miranda and Jack or whatever the hell was going on with Ashley in ME3 top to bottom.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
ME2 was highkey sexist as fuck.
While I'm going to be very excited for - and likely enjoy - the Mass Effect Legendary Edition, I am already prepared to have a bit of disappointment if they leave the way they treated women and fanservice in generation as-is. It was cringy back then, it hasn't aged well at ALL, and it mars what is otherwise a very spectacular game and series.

I'll reference my big "what the remaster should do" thread again, because not much has changed on my stance towards their sexualization of its characters at inappropriate times.

2. BETTER/MORE SENSIBLE OUTFITS and PRESENTATION - More so for the women, but by the time ME2 rolled around, as much as I loved its cast, it was clear this was going to be the "sexier" Mass Effect compared its predecessor.
b89.png

(Yes, Miranda, I'm sure your sob story about your sister is fascinating, but the camera wants me to pay attention to something else.)

While I love all the female cast of the series, was it really necessary to having Samara's plunging V-neck cleavage given her line of work and aversion to intimacy? Or to doll-up Ashley for ME3 since she was rigidly regulation in ME1? Or to give EDI an outfit with a cameltoe? Yes, I'm advocating for the removal of underwear a few sections earlier, but all of this is about what makes the most sense - both to the characters and to the immersion of the scenarios. "Biotic fields" be damned, it looks ridiculous to go out into the vacuum of space with one female character wearing plausible space gear and the other wearing leather straps and a small breathing mask.
MassEffect2+pretty1.jpg


It's a sentiment I've seen echoed by a lot of players, and you CAN cover some of them up... with extra paid DLC. By all means, keep their original designs for those that want them, but having a bit better portrayals of these characters through alternate attire would please many players who love their character arcs but cringe at their clothing options and a leering camera.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,359
SĂŁo Paulo - Brazil
Trying to unravel and understand that mindset where Miranda & Jack's outfits = A-OK, but Jack's F/F relation = BAD is a mess. I love ME and ME2/3 but fuck I still hate how big a shift there was from ME to ME2 away from the retro Hard Sci-fi aesthetic to this more modern sleek and sexy approach. Particularly when it came to character, outfit and armor designs. Like I thought it was kind of loud and obvious how Ashley first appeared in White and Pink armor in ME1, but fuck that was nothing compared to the body suit and harness we got with Miranda and Jack or whatever the hell was going on with Ashley in ME3 top to bottom.

I think Ashley is a great example of the change in approach from ME1 to ME3. But I should add that ME1 had it's fair of questionable decisions. Mainly the Asari, which were a race literally created to be sexy space babies in the same vein of older similar races in sci-fi.
 

metal

Banned
Nov 26, 2020
1,251
Did they actually think the fox news coverage was bad for the game? Honestly it probably helped sell more copies.

Disappointing that they cut it due to pressure from the lunatics at fox news of all places.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,359
SĂŁo Paulo - Brazil
While I'm going to be very excited for - and likely enjoy - the Mass Effect Legendary Edition, I am already prepared to have a bit of disappointment if they leave the way they treated women and fanservice in generation as-is. It was cringy back then, it hasn't aged well at ALL, and it mars what is otherwise a very spectacular game and series.

I'll reference my big "what the remaster should do" thread again, because not much has changed on my stance towards their sexualization of its characters at inappropriate times.

I always felt there was a... tension in ME2, and even in ME3, when it comes to "sexy degins". Take Miranda for example. The game take its time to introduce and develop her character. You can have interesting conversations with her about her past and the reasoning behind her choices... and then in the next scene her butt is taking 50% of the screen.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
I think Ashley is a great example of the change in approach from ME1 to ME3. But I should add that ME1 had it's fair of questionable decisions. Mainly the Asari, which were a race literally created to be sexy space babies in the same vein of older similar races in sci-fi.
For sure ME1 was not innocent. Asari as a mono-gendered species is really interesting, but when all you're presenting is hot blue space chicks it's pretty meaningless. They kind of addressed with Liara's "father", but it's a little suspect having the father in that relationship be one of the only glammed down and de-feminized Asari. Along with having a much gravellier and deeper voice. But then if you get drunk they swap out her face for a more generic and conventionally attractive face. So choices.
 

Hakunon

Member
Oct 11, 2018
311
I remember trying to flirt with her and then she just... cuts you off if my memory serves me right. Awkward.

Miranda's option for FemShep would be nice, too. I really liked her as a character, and her being strictly for the male character while sexualized to hell was a disappointment.
 

BrandoBoySP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,178
I highly doubt they'll change much in the remaster given that they're billing it as just a remaster, not a remake--that makes me think it'll be largely the exact same games, but with cleaned up graphics and back-end tech stuff. I think expecting anything more is just going to set us up for disappointment.

As for them removing Jack's romance with femShep, it sucks and it's homophobic/biphobic, but we have to remember that they're also tied to what the investors and execs want. You can't just go rogue and somehow leave it in the game (or, more accurately, finish it) as a single dev (or even just a few); that takes time and resources that you have to spend elsewhere as part of the team. Leaving it in could have risked the entire game and the team's positions, and with the firestorm that was Hot Coffee despite it not even being accessible without hacking, something like this at that time could have really fucked over the entire project.

That doesn't mean it was the right choice or a good choice, not at all, but when you're faced with potential legal consequences... I mean, look at the history there. When the first game came out, Jack Thompson was actively still attempting to ban video games and stir up moral outrage, Fox News had picked it all up, Don't Ask Don't Tell was still in effect, marriage equality hadn't been legalized (and the majority of people, by a slim margin, still opposed it), and the amount of people that thought same-sex relationships should be legal actually went down a few percent the next year, according to Gallup polls. The game was already under fire for including sex scenes at all, and Hot Coffee had just happened a couple of years before.

Releasing the first game and working on the second in that atmosphere, I understand it, especially because Bioware was a big company beholden to shareholders and investors. Look at film history, for example: homosexuality itself was outlawed depicted in film until the late 1960s, and gay characters essentially had to be punished or portrayed as villains, hence why we got queer-coded characters so often. That doesn't mean that the people who didn't put out positive gay characters were cowardly or homophobic: they did what they could at the time.

It's absolutely a disservice to Jack and to us queer people, and I think it was the wrong decision--a cowardly one, even--but characterizing it as enacting the agenda of homophobes seems a little uncharitable given the circumstances. It's a complex situation that isn't as simple as "you furthered the agenda of people who want to eradicate us," you know? It's easy enough to say and even believe that in a time where we have more queer representation than ever (and still not enough! it's still a battle!), but the context is important.

Those aren't the alternatives; no one in game development is gets fired for some mild pushback over creative differences. There are disagreements in game dev all the time. People only get fired for it when it comes in the form of being a huge asshole to their coworkers.

Forging ahead on things that have already been abandoned is more than mild pushback, though. Creative differences and mild pushback is discussion and argument and pressure and using social capital; it's not going rogue to enact something that's a hot-button issue that could result in major legal consequences for the entire team. (I think it would have been incredibly brave, relatively speaking, to do that, but given the time the game was made, I think it's at least understandable why it went down this way. Shitty, absolutely. But understandable, imo.)
 

BrandoBoySP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,178
Oh you sweet summer child.

I can't find it, but I remember a particularly memeworthy post from there about Krogan buttholes.

oh man. I'll have to search for it later, because that sounds amazing in the worst way hahaha. Thank you for enlightening me lmao

I always felt there was a... tension in ME2, and even in ME3, when it comes to "sexy degins". Take Miranda for example. The game take its time to introduce and develop her character. You can have interesting conversations with her about her past and the reasoning behind her choices... and then in the next scene her butt is taking 50% of the screen.

HER OUTFIT MAKES NO SENSE
the framing of those scenes makes no sense
obviously it was done to pander to straight guys but MAN it's just. so jarring and obviously sexist. and something we're still dealing with in a lot of ways in gaming, ughhhh
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,196
which on paper was technically not a gay relationship because she was from a mono-gendered species
Still the same old bullshit.

Tip: you're not as progressive, open-minded a team as y'all thought you were, as indicated by your many words and actions over the years. Go away.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,113
Jack being a male-only romance option always made zero sense to me. She literally talks about sleeping with women in her dialogue. Not surprised at all to learn this.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,393
Dare I say it, we need Jack Thompson again. Everyone online was united against him. Gamergate never happens if that guy remained front and center as the "biggest threat to gaming"
Well, about that. Gamergaters rallied behind Jack Thompson because they both hated feminists that much.

Wish I were kidding.
 

Suede

Gotham's Finest
Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,519
Scotland
As a Jack stan, this cuts deep. All I ever wanted was to romance her with my FemShep.
 
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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,033
HER OUTFIT MAKES NO SENSE
the framing of those scenes makes no sense
obviously it was done to pander to straight guys but MAN it's just. so jarring and obviously sexist. and something we're still dealing with in a lot of ways in gaming, ughhhh

I actually dig Miranda's outfit as it fits her personality, I just wish there was an alternative for when she's out in fucking space missions besides a gas mask. I DO have a serious problem with those camera angles, its just dumb high school horny levels dumb. Mass Effect 3 I believe does it once as a joke shot as even they realized by then it was stupid.

On the other hand, I've never really understood Samara's outfit. It doesn't fit her personality at all.
 
Jul 24, 2018
10,263
I remember that FN story. Always thought it was ridiculous.
Takes me back to the Social Network, it's ridiculous because you still have dialogue with Jack where she talks about having been in relationships with men and women. If it could be added back in the remasters that'd be great but it'd probably be too much of an undertaking that BioWare wouldn't do it.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
I just wish there was an alternative for when she's out in fucking space missions besides a gas mask.
I absolutely could not stand this at all. But even just in normal battles that lack of actual armor on 2/3 of your squad was just the worst. If they wanted to have some more unique and kind of striking out of combat on the ship wear that's fine, but the unique outfits was beyond dumb in every other circumstance.

I get they were going for that like cheesy over the top feel with the whole suicide mission, gathering these super unique characters, but it just went too far. Tali, Garrus, Grunt and Legion were the only squadmates whose outfits made sense. Thane, Mordin, Zaeed, Kasumi and Jacob's outfits worked as casual stuff on the ship, but not elsewhere save for Zaeed, but his whole right arm was exposed so that seemed dumb especially in vacuum of space scenarios. Samara, Jack, Miranda and Liara were all dumb as rocks in any circumstance, but especially during any combat or vacuum situation.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,812
While I'm going to be very excited for - and likely enjoy - the Mass Effect Legendary Edition, I am already prepared to have a bit of disappointment if they leave the way they treated women and fanservice in generation as-is. It was cringy back then, it hasn't aged well at ALL, and it mars what is otherwise a very spectacular game and series.

I'll reference my big "what the remaster should do" thread again, because not much has changed on my stance towards their sexualization of its characters at inappropriate times.
Yep. Hard agree with all of this. Shit, BioWare has come a loooooong way. I really hope they change at least some of this stuff. It doesn't reflect what BioWare currently is.
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
Normally I'd say it was a different time but I could still see these dumb decisions being made today really.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,116
Lol people rediscovering Jack's bullshit outfit.

Miranda wearing high heels on rocky planets.

All these jerks just wearing a gas mask so their "iconic space outfits" weren't covered up. So dumb.

I didn't even care about sexism in 2010 but I found it simply immersion shattering that Jack was a semi-nudist, and doubly so that she was a semi-nudist during combat and during hazardous environment sequences and people like Mordin were also out there with like a light mask and nothing else outside their regular gear. Super dumb, one of my least favourite things about a game that is one of my favourite overall titles.
 

i-Jest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,015
It'd be nice if they included what was originally intended, but I feel people in positions of authority would definitely push back. Have fans tried to get in touch with people doing the remaster to include cut content?
 

microgreen

Member
Jun 24, 2020
364
Mass Effect is one of my favorite series of all time but I always thought it was ironically very backwards for a futuristic sci-fi series. Especially when you compare it to Dragon Age, which has its own faults, but wasn't as sexist or heteronormative as Mass Effect was. I always thought the ME team was a tad homophobic.

It's not like they really learned their lesson with Andromeda when they screwed over gay male Ryders with Jaal and only added his romance when there was a huge outcry.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,050
This series was also propped up by the western games media as the proper, mature way to depict video game romance.

Not like those immature japanese games where it's all very superficial and easy like tokimeki am I right

One of these games rewards you with a sex scene if you choose some superficial conversational options a few times in a row 🤔
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,401
This series was also propped up by the western games media as the proper, mature way to depict video game romance.

Not like those immature japanese games where it's all very superficial and easy like tokimeki am I right

One of these games rewards you with a sex scene if you choose some superficial conversational options a few times in a row 🤔
The romance systems in BioWare games have been routinely criticized as feeling incredibly artificial and they've worked to address that with each new title they make.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,050
The romance systems in BioWare games have been routinely criticized as feeling incredibly artificial and they've worked to address that with each new title they make.

I agree but what does that have to do with the gaming media's reaction to mass effect 1 though. I probably should find articles with examples before dropping that kind of thing in the thread though. I just remember seeing some clown takes regarding relationship development in video games with ME1 and 2 in particular.
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,401
I agree but what does that have to do with the gaming media's reaction to mass effect 1 though. I probably should find articles with examples before dropping that kind of thing in the thread though. I just remember seeing some clown takes regarding relationship development in video games with ME1 and 2 in particular.
I remember it being brought up in Dragon Age because of the incredibly broken gift system. And them openly acknowledging the flawed system while talking about the changes they made to DA2.