You know as well as I do when people post those kind of statements on here that ain't what they're talking about lol
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None of the issues outlined in the post you replied to are incorrect. That's not hyperbolically negative. It's the truth. Now you might not care, but that doesn't mean others don't have to either and that list is some fairly core systems, many of which are broken or non-working.
Exactly. Takedown spam is optimal for all the wrong reasons. It protects you from overpowered ranged enemies by spamming iframes and allows you to not engage in combat - the game's best feature. The best word I can describe it with is "degenerate" because it literally degenerates the combat.
User Warned - Antagonizing other members
I was speaking to not just his reply, but all of the ones he's given since the game dropped. He's been one of the more active people in this thread and the review thread, and if you went back and read some of his other posts, you'd see what I was talking about being "hyperbolically negative".
I had just one posting in the review thread and that was negative against Destiny 1, lol.
Try again.
If you have a personal problem with me, there's an ignore button. I'm normally discussing the game like everyone else here and in discord, post a lot of real bugs but also praise the game a lot and very often. So get outta here with this shit.
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couldn't disagree more. I love the takedown meta and would be super disappointed if it's nerfed. The animations are cool and never get old and I enjoy the decision making involved with the iframes. I like using them to get my bearings, to regain health, to "dodge" attacks when there's groups. It's all great. It's the best thing about playing Black Widow and Captain America.
Ahhh, gotcha. I thought it was focused on the content of that post. My bad. I'll leave y'all to it.
He is correct from a design perspective that it's sort of degenerate play, in regards to Avengers' core combat.
You're basically right, but I do enjoy unleashing big attacks, executing takedowns, then immediately flowing into more combos. I don't necessarily think it's degenerate, but it does feel necessary because of how poorly designed most of the encounters are right now. I definitely use a lot of the heroics as basically emergency iframes to escape from the half a dozen or so lasers that sometimes converge on you. Widow's shock punch basically let's you iframe any attack on command and then it's usually a takedown or auto kill on whoever takes it.
I couldn't disagree more with your disagreement, haha. There's only a couple of animations and I would rather be actually playing the combat than watching it. There's no decision making, you shit out so many heroic orbs once you have the right artifact and build that the optimal strategy is to just use the abilities off cooldown. What you're talking about is the good part of iframes, the decision making and using them like a parry for sticky situations. This all goes out the window when you have effectively infinite iframes.
It definitely feels good the first time! I myself said as much earlier in the thread:
I fucking love Cap, the mastery upgrades increase your stun capability so you can do more takedowns, and then you unlock ability meter boosts when you do takedowns. You'll basically have 100% ability uptime. His entire kit becomes
But when you keep playing with it for hours you get bored. The more efficient you build this strat, the less you have to pay attention to the game.
Completely agree that the takedowns aren't intrinsically a problem, its the enemy design and balance which necessitates iframe abuse that's the root issue. Keyword "abuse" - iframes as another tool in the arsenal is great. Iframes being so optimal and powerful that the rest of the tools are useless is not.
Sure, but before you nerf all this takedown stuff they need to nerf the ranged enemies. I always go for takedowns (and I'm very low-leveled) because I need the field to clear so I can stop dodging like a maniac lol
I remember when I first got into Warframe, I did things that allowed me to kill and farm/loot efficiently, and without them I died easily. Even today I tend to use the perma invisible frames to play new content with my over powered weapons (Loki, Octavia, Ash). Then there's the Warframes that take no damage (Rhino's Iron Skin), Warframes that slowed enemies to a crawl in a big protective bubble (Frost), or the Warframe that defied death over and over (I got so rich farming the Acolytes when they were well above my experience and gear because Wukong didn't care about death).
Instead of nerfing, just make other ways to handle the content. My Ms. Marvel don't have to use the take down cycle to feed her heroics for a heal, but if I was doing raid stuff in a healer role I could see myself using it often to fuel the heals. She has a ton of HP, and armor, and I notice those attacks don't really scare me anymore, but I still do the takedowns just to CC big guys and to help my damage.
Instead of nerfing, just make other ways to handle the content. My Ms. Marvel don't have to use the take down cycle to feed her heroics for a heal, but if I was doing raid stuff in a healer role I could see myself using it often to fuel the heals. She has a ton of HP, and armor, and I notice those attacks don't really scare me anymore, but I still do the takedowns just to CC big guys and to help my damage.
Wait a minute...so I just had the AMAZING epiphany to redo the Cap HARM training in order to quickly grind out the daily challenge of getting 15 kill using counter attacks (this made it...SO much easier since it's just you and no AI or randos stealing your kills while you patiently wait for enemies to attack you for the parries) and lo and behold I see in the tutorial tip that RED attacks can be parried by Cap's shield? Uh what? Is that a typo?
Yeah the HARM missions are pretty great for most of the challenges.
The Warframe comparisons do have me curious how much this potentially compares to Warframe at-launch. It was significantly smaller then (only 8 frames at launch I see) and IIRC the game only arguably "got good" with Parkour 2.0 (and indeed, watching E3 2013 gameplay it's so bizarre watching someone play and not fucking bullet-jumping everywhere lmao).
Of course, Warframe will always have it's F2P status over it.
Don't understand how this game has sub 70. It has flaws, but people acting like it's one of those old time shitty movie tie in games are nuts. There's a lot of nice stuff put into this game. I'm not too far though, so maybe it gets way worse.
The only way this game is sub 70 is if you experience a ton of bugs, or you don't have a group to play with and are forced to use their shitty matching system.
I mean, the latter is a core part of an online game. Bedrock! Even with friend, if you get DCed, you getting back in that elite Hive? No? Why not? Oh, because there's no way to rejoin a session.
I can keep going on basic online stuff. Not even design-level.
Because content takes time to develop and they know they need a carrot on stick to keep people to come back. It's simply about having continual content being added to your game on a regular basis to keep your player base coming back, so it's pretty common to develop and hold stuff back and ready to go, also gives the devs breathing room to work on stuff to add to the game cause they have stuff mostly ready to go, instead of having the problem so many games have where you go 3--5 months with no new content added, and your player base dries up.
I haven't been able to accept a villain sector daily since Monday.
I think it might end up coming down to the devs needing to nerf stun damage so it isn't as easy to build up stun meter? That or, after stunning an opponent isn't the only prerequisite for performing a takedown, you also have to build a combo meter up that is "spent" after doing one takedown?
Also, can someone confirm if Cap is able to parry red attacks or not? The HARM tutorial I just replayed indicated this but I never realized...I feel like it might be a typo?
Enemy spawns are random, but they're is a modifier for more Exos I think.
That's the problem with the "Kill 10 X" in the game. I generally just load up Enter the Avengers to get that done. Exos would probably be a Huge, but it's a toss up of getting Adaptoids instead
He's hardly the worst offender on that regard. I gave this game a 9/10 and have this as a GOTY contender for me. Somehow that's equated as hyperbole, while I keep seeing people come here to not just trash the game, but tell others that are enjoying it that they are wrong for doing so. Edge has talked at length about the game, pointing out both what he loves and what he is frustrated with. At least he isn't trying to pass his opinion as gospel or "the truth".
I'm right there with you. The animations also serve to strategize your next moves in the heat of comba, especially when things get crazy. Had an insane experience playing with a random earlier and we were timing our Thor's and Iron Man's support heroics to achieve exactly that.
Cutting off the takedowns is absolute non-sense, imho.
Yeah... no. He isn't correct.
I feel like enemies at high level need to be reworked before killing the takedown stuff. Enemies esp on elite just seem to soak everything and never flinch. Meanwhile you're getting shot at. Encounters push you that way hard
You can't parry reds. A couple of the harm room tutorials incorrectly state that you can, but you actually have to perfect evade.
I'm guessing certain characters were probably originally planned to be able to do it, but it got changed and the tutorial text was just never revised.
I mean, how you feel about it is whatever. You can enjoy it! I don't care. But takedown spam allows you to avoid mechanics like staggers, dodges, and parries. Like, it is the definition of degenerative play. Sorry, you are in fact, incorrect.
Degenerate Strategy
This definition explains the meaning of Degenerate Strategy and why it matters.
www.techopedia.com
There is no tutorial being like, "Takedowns are a great way to avoid masses of incoming damage!" They are meant to provide you with more damage and orbs once you've specced into it. The invincibility is a side effect of implementation (you survive the animation being played out, since you know, they sell Takedowns), and once you're in certain specs, you can use them to avoid a great deal of damage.
Which again, you can feel whatever about. Degenerative play isn't always bad. This is still a degenerate strategy.
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Me neither. It is a flawed game with one of the best campaigns of the year. I feel like some critics tried way too hard to hate on this. I gave it a 9/10, I understand those that gave it a 7/10 but below that it's just needlessly harsh and not really fair with this game at all. I am right there with criticisms I've seen from EZA's Michael Ruber and even GreatBriTom when it comes to how the game desperately needs more content like new levels and villains, but it's still very much one of the strongest releases of the year. Once they work around all the bugs, I think it won't be long until people realize how much of a gem this game is.
I've been playing brawlers all my life. This is one of the best I've ever played. I think it's laughable to suggest that the guy behind God of War's combat gameplay hasn't consciously made the takedowns of his new game to work the way it does because it's insanely satisfying but by a mistake that people are exploiting. Invincibility when you are doing a takedown has been a staple in the genre and part of the combat flow of God of War, Spidey and Arkham games before.I mean, how you feel about it is whatever. You can enjoy it! I don't care. But takedown spam allows you to avoid mechanics like staggers, dodges, and parries. Like, it is the definition of degenerative play. Sorry, you are in fact, incorrect.
Degenerate Strategy
This definition explains the meaning of Degenerate Strategy and why it matters.
There is no tutorial being like, "Takedowns are a great way to avoid masses of incoming damage!" They are meant to provide you with more damage and orbs once you've specced into it. The invincibility is a side effect of implementation (you survive the animation being played out, since you know, they sell Takedowns), and once you're in certain specs, you can use them to avoid a great deal of damage.
Which again, you can feel whatever about. Degenerative play isn't always bad. This is still a degenerate strategy.
This game has arguably the best combat gameplay and flow among all the other superhero games that came before, and I'm hardly the only one singing praises about that. Of course that I expect adjustments to the combat gameplay, but the takedowns and how they help you out strategize is one of this game's best features gameplay wise, and of course that is by design.
I've just reached level 50 (88 Power) with Cap. I discovered the OP build myself yesterday. I was reading the perks thinking "This can't be right". Easier takedowns in Brooklyn brawler mode combined with takedowns extending it and dropping heroic orbs to recharge it. I'm not in full on top level endgame range yet but it feels like it pretty much breaks the game. Especially when I realised you don't take damage while performing the takedowns.
It's crazy the devs saw that and thought it was fine.
I'm still massively enjoying it though.
It's crazy the devs saw that and thought it was fine.
I'm still massively enjoying it though.
He's not complaining about invincibility during a takedown, he's complaining about frequent takedowns being a key component of builds at high level gameplay because it helps the player avoid having to engage with the various other gameplay systems in the game. Like yes there's takedowns in other game,s but you couldn't rely on them to the extent you can in this game.
Like, a more valid objection would be that it's not necessarily the fault with the takedown system as it is the fact that with how high level gameplay currently is designed, it just sucks trying to play the game as intended at that point. :v
Mando, keep working through your feelings, man. Whatever works for you.
Personally though, I'll go wIth actually talking about the design of the game in front of me.
Oh wow, look, Reddit just got there too.
www.reddit.com
Note, fixing this would also deal with a common complaint: "combos are possible, but there's no incentive to do so."
Personally though, I'll go wIth actually talking about the design of the game in front of me.
Oh wow, look, Reddit just got there too.
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
Note, fixing this would also deal with a common complaint: "combos are possible, but there's no incentive to do so."
I'm pretty sure this will be dropped after the 1 year mark, if it survives that long anyway.
The player base already dropped out mostly due to virtually no endgame variety at all.
How long could you extend it? Doesn't it count the time down while being in the animations?
But that's what I'm saying; I'm no Klyka or anyone playing this like a pro right now: I'm about to finish the campaign and I'm closing to level 50 with my main, I have . Most people won't play at an incredible high level, so what you do is increase the difficulty for those playing at a higher level and keep those at the middle of the road that will never play as much as a pro.
That's a nerf that I can get behind. Cap is broken.
Mando, keep working through your feelings, man. Whatever works for you.
Personally though, I'll go wIth actually talking about the design of the game in front of me.
Oh wow, look, Reddit just got there too.
Reddit - Dive into anything
Note, fixing this would also deal with a common complaint: "combos are possible, but there's no incentive to do so."
I'm doing combos all the time, and using the takedowns to strategize exactly that. I see that Cap seems broken at a high level. You can't state your preferences like proven facts. For those that are in the middle of the road, the combat flow is quite fucking awesome, that's what I'm saying. And I think it's obvious that this was made by design, not really an exploit, Brooklyn Brawler's exploit not withstanding since it's so far not really something that those still on the treadmill can really experience while playing.
It adds 3 seconds per takedown. If you get a run of regular non shielded enemies you can basically keep it going forever. If you do run out though you'll probably already have recharged it from all the heroic orbs.
Indefinitely. Orbs give a few seconds, CQC Brawler allows you to get to takedown much faster , Adrenaline Rush makes Takedowns extend the time, and the timer pauses on takedown.
Edit: Mando, you're talking feelings, not facts, and it's honestly not worth my time to try and keep explaining it to you. Carry on.
I'm already finding myself able to frequently embiggen immediately after my embiggen runs out, sometimes multiple times in a row if there's enough combat and I haven't even tried to build for it at all. Something definitely feels off about how easy it is to recharge duration based heroics in the middle of using them.
I'm at the point now where certain enemies will just one shot snipe me and when I'm stuck playing with bots because matchmaking doesn't work it's infuriating
Hard to say what the designer intended or knew. Either way, I don't particularly care, it's super fun and I hope it stays.
woah woah woah I am not good at this game. I play it a lot but I am an absolute shitter at it.
You confuse me my man. How are you definitively saying that I'm incorrect about takedowns being a degenerate strategy at the endgame, when you also agree that Cap is broken? And how are you dismissing my opinion outright when you haven't played this strategy at endgame? In my first post I even said that the takedown build is fun and much better before the build becomes completely optimized and braindead to play.
I'm not quite as negative personally. I think they have quite a bit riding on this game, their relationship with marvel included.