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Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
- Entertainment Comics OT
It's only two episodes in, this is going to be explained. Jesus Christ...
I hate these takes.
you are thinking waaay more than the creators themselves about this
No, we're not.
MCU went out of the way to explain away a "fake" infinity gauntlet from a throwaway post-credits scene. Feige knows MCU fans obsess over the details. He knows because he's also a comics fan.
Time travel being narratively messy is a well-known storytelling trope, they're not just half-assing it. This isn't Austin Powers lol. I guarantee you the MCU time travel/multiverse rules all fit together cleanly.
The term Variant does not apply to anyone that jumps around in time, it only applies to things that disrupt the sacred timeline. It's defined in the very first episode.
I am loving everything about this show, no wonder this is getting a Season 2 before all the episodes of Season 1 have aired.
There are three Time Keepers, guess who has three distinct variations of themselves.
Nathaniel Richards (Kang) (Earth-6311)
Nathaniel Richards has had various incarnations over the years and each identity has its own, ever-expanding history. For the sake of clarity, this article will only cover, essentially, the history of Nathaniel Richards during his time as Kang. For more information on the other identities of...marvel.fandom.com
Nathaniel Richards (Rama-Tut) (Earth-6311)
This article covers Nathaniel Richards' incarnation as Rama-Tut. For other incarnations of Richards, see Iron Lad, Kid Immortus, the Scarlet Centurion, Kang the Conqueror, Immortus, and Mister Gryphon. 36 appearance(s) of Nathaniel Richards (Rama-Tut) (Earth-6311) 7 appearance(s) in handbook(s)...
Nathaniel Richards (Scarlet Centurion) (Earth-6311)
This article covers Nathaniel Richards' incarnation as Scarlet Centurion. For other incarnations of Richards, see Iron Lad, Kid Immortus, Rama-Tut, Kang the Conqueror, Mister Gryphon, and Immortus. 8 appearance(s) of Nathaniel Richards (Scarlet Centurion) (Earth-6311) 5 appearance(s) in...
You left out Immortus.
That's really only an issue if you take the TVA's mission at stated face value.
My bet? The Time Keepers don't actually care what happens and don't actually have a "golden" timeline, they're just winging it towards an outcome that they want.
They're sitting somewhere with a computer that's calculating the probability of the outcome they want. If something happens and the probability goes up or doesn't change? That's what was "supposed" to happen. Something happens and the probability goes down? "That's a variant, prune it."
The graphic presenting a main line with branches coming off of it is propaganda. My guess is that there'll be a reveal that it's actually a gnarled mess.
FYI her actual name is Sylvie aka Enchantress two so yeah looks like it(she is Lauffydotta though, so it's a fusion of the two)
Think of 'what is supposed to happen' in the sacred timeline being like the script of a movie. The TVA has this script, and it says something along the lines of 'A Gamora from another universe comes over into the sacred timeline'. That's all that is required to make her not a variant. As long as it's in the script, it's supposed to happen, even if it involves hopping along timelines. If it's supposed to happen, it's not a variant.
no they don't.
they didn't fit since endgame.
there is not even a "tesseract" to return, because it is already just a stone.
and what he is gonna do with the aether? put it on fire to liquidify it and put it on jane again???
what is he gonna do with the soul stone exactly????? throw it at that peak where the red skull is???????????
there is no "getting the stones backs to their timeline"
that never made sense.
but it doesn't matter anyways, because they are not going to be resstriced by bullshit rules
Killed by Ravonna, presumably.
She's feeling out Mobius right now, but he he starts to catch on, she'll turn on him.
(Or I am totally wrong as I usually am.)
I thought of Doctor Who the whole damn episode lol. Especially the part in Pompeii.
Isn't the fact that Loki steals the tesseract what makes them having to travel further back in time? How is that a variant without making that whole thing also a variant?
for me it's not clear what the pruning does since that action has a bunch of consequences that we have seen happen
for me it's not clear what the pruning does since that action has a bunch of consequences that we have seen happen
One thing I am really liking about this show is that there are no obvious conclusions popping out immediately. I mean, most people had the villain and ending of wandavision guessed by episode 3 or 4 and it was painfully obvious. This really feels like anything can happen so far with nothing obvious popping out
This is what I was thinking too. But I guess one could argue that travelling further back in time or not does not really alter the end outcome - the avengers got the alternative stones and reversed the snap regardless. kinda similar to Loki's apocalyptic event theory
I like this explanation.Their extra time traveling was not supposed to happen but it didn't alter the intended outcome so it's fine.
The only "inconsistency" would be that Endgame seems to indicate that Steve seeing Peggy during that time traveling made him stay in the past but that can be easily ignored and we can assume he would have do that anyway.
Honestly, I often do obsess over time-travel details, and I'm still quite pleased with how this has all turned out. But maybe I'm more satisfied than some with just filling in gaps with reasonable head-canon.
The trickiest part is definitely in 2012, when Loki's escape seems necessary to send Cap and Tony back to 1970. Loki's escapes seems deviant, while Cap and Tony getting the Cube seems to be required by the Sacred Timeline.
But there's a million ways to square that circle. Maybe Loki was supposed to APPEAR to escape, which would be enough to send Cap and Tony back. But he's then otherwise apprehended, and all the weird stuff Cap did (Hail Hydra, Bucky's Alive) is brushed off as Loki trickery. That timeline would still adhere to the Sacred Timeline, if we accept the fuzzy logic of how that works, and it's only Loki disappearing that actually causes a Variant.
Granted, I'm meeting the show halfway on this, so it just depends on how willing you are to paper over questions with your own, reasonable explanation.
The trickiest part is definitely in 2012, when Loki's escape seems necessary to send Cap and Tony back to 1970. Loki's escapes seems deviant, while Cap and Tony getting the Cube seems to be required by the Sacred Timeline.
But there's a million ways to square that circle. Maybe Loki was supposed to APPEAR to escape, which would be enough to send Cap and Tony back. But he's then otherwise apprehended, and all the weird stuff Cap did (Hail Hydra, Bucky's Alive) is brushed off as Loki trickery. That timeline would still adhere to the Sacred Timeline, if we accept the fuzzy logic of how that works, and it's only Loki disappearing that actually causes a Variant.
Granted, I'm meeting the show halfway on this, so it just depends on how willing you are to paper over questions with your own, reasonable explanation.
What do you mean Loki and the cube don't need to reappear? If the point of the reset charger is to undo what protagonist Loki did in episode, then that means he needs to reappear cuffed and gagged in the ground floor of the Avengers tower. If Loki remains in Avengers custody and the tesseract remains in SHIELD's possession, then that means
a)2012 Loki & the tesseract had to be cloned or something of that sort to reappear there, since the original 2012 Loki & tesseract were taken away by the TVA
b)the events of Endgame would have to change, because the last thing that happens in the 2012 moment is 2023 Tony getting hit by 2012 Hulk and losing the tesseract. If the TVA just makes sure the one thing that does not happen in the 2012 is Loki picking up the case, then what is the next thing that happens?
Yeah, I think you are on to something here. Or at least, I hope they show us. From what I gathered it didn't really seem like they implied there is more to the reset chargers than meets the eye. But they're gonna have to since the stinger of episode 3 was basically (Sylvie) created a multiverse by force with all of those reset chargers.
I do want to point out though that I am overall enjoying the show. More than Falcon, less than WandaVision. It is a good show, it is entertaining, but it isn't without its flaws either. I also recognize that I can be a harsh critic but that is only because I know that Marvel Studios is aiming for higher and deeper storytelling - it is good storytelling, but it isn't above criticism.
This actually kinda got me thinking, it makes me think that 2014 Thanos (the main villain of Endgame) should be a variant too. This is since he also did something he wasn't supposed to do, which was leave his universe entirely and travel to the future into the main 2023 timeline. This would change the events of Guardians of the Galaxy onward.
Hell, to play devil's advocate, even 2014 Star-Lord would be a variant (not by choice) because he wasn't supposed to be knocked unconscious by Rhodey on Morag. By the time he wakes up, his path has already deviated from the main MCU timeline as well
I don't know why people are talking about this like it's solely time travel.
There is straight time travel involved (the jaunts to Vesuvius and Walmart), but the main "missions" are time and reality travel. They're jumping to newborn alternate realities to cut them off at the pass and prevent them from growing.
A lot of "A doesn't lead to B anymore" can be explained away with "A happened in reality X, while B happened in reality Y".
Plus you're still operating on the guidelines presented to you by a source that is clearly self-serving and dubious.
There is straight time travel involved (the jaunts to Vesuvius and Walmart), but the main "missions" are time and reality travel. They're jumping to newborn alternate realities to cut them off at the pass and prevent them from growing.
A lot of "A doesn't lead to B anymore" can be explained away with "A happened in reality X, while B happened in reality Y".
Plus you're still operating on the guidelines presented to you by a source that is clearly self-serving and dubious.
Between this being amazing and Widow reactions looking very good, MCU fans are eating right now.
Folks they covered what a "Variant" is and is not in episode one.
Variant = Someone that disrupts the events of the "Sacred Timeline" i.e. Loki. Loki was not supposed to touch the Tesseract.
Not A Variant = Anyone else that time travels but is supposed to according to the "Sacred Timeline". i.e. Steve Rogers, Gamora, Thanos
The second jump back in Endgame was supposed to happen according to the Time Keepers - Loki being the cause was not supposed to happen.
It's that easy.
Gamora and Thanos coming to 2023 does not overwrite Gamora and Thanos making it to 2018 in Infinity War. You cannot overwrite your past in MCU rules.
Think of the sacred timeline as a script for what is supposed to happen. If the script says that Gamora lives until 2018, then a different Gamora from 2014 is supposed to jump into 2023 - that is not a variant.
Variant = Someone that disrupts the events of the "Sacred Timeline" i.e. Loki. Loki was not supposed to touch the Tesseract.
Not A Variant = Anyone else that time travels but is supposed to according to the "Sacred Timeline". i.e. Steve Rogers, Gamora, Thanos
The second jump back in Endgame was supposed to happen according to the Time Keepers - Loki being the cause was not supposed to happen.
It's that easy.
Gamora and Thanos coming to 2023 does not overwrite Gamora and Thanos making it to 2018 in Infinity War. You cannot overwrite your past in MCU rules.
Think of the sacred timeline as a script for what is supposed to happen. If the script says that Gamora lives until 2018, then a different Gamora from 2014 is supposed to jump into 2023 - that is not a variant.
He doesn't need to reappear in 2012 because the entire branch caused by his escape and stealing the tesseract is gone. When someone defies what they're 'supposed' to do and becomes a variant, the TVA doesn't drop them off back at the branching point; they apprehend them, erase them, and erase the branch timeline they created. Remember when the TVA arrested Loki, they didn't take him back to Stark Tower; they took him to their base to be processed, tried, and erased. This Loki isn't even supposed to be around still.
When the TVA prunes branches, they don't put people back, they just wipe out the whole thing. In 2012, Loki remains in Avengers custody and the tesseract remains in SHIELD's possession. From the sacred timeline's POV, they never left. The alternate timeline where they did leave was erased.
The show goes to great lengths to show that divergences in the timeline are a sliding scale and can and do happen. As long as the results are the same (the divergence returning to 0%) then everything is ok. This is exactly how female Loki is escaping them repeatedly, they don't even notice the small divergences she creates.
It doesn't matter what happens after Loki is stopped from getting the cube in 2012, the avengers can find the stones there or for some other reason in the 70s, so long as the end result is the same and Steve returns them all after Thanos is defeated. Loki leaving the timeline for good in 2012 has ramifications that diverge the timeline permanently.
It doesn't matter what happens after Loki is stopped from getting the cube in 2012, the avengers can find the stones there or for some other reason in the 70s, so long as the end result is the same and Steve returns them all after Thanos is defeated. Loki leaving the timeline for good in 2012 has ramifications that diverge the timeline permanently.
Huh, so I've been seeing a lot of Doctor Who comparisons on Twitter, which I find amusing but someone brought up Marvel's ACTUAL Doctor parody character, Professor Gamble. It took me a second but I actually remember the character from reading old issues of Power Man and Iron Fist. At the time I was just "lol cute Doctor Who parody" but reading up on him on the wiki, it turns out he's on the run from the TVA as he's popped up a couple times since then. I wonder if there's a chance there'll reference him in some way? Maybe just a fun little gag where Loki needs to make up an alias or something.
I would do a "Remember when" thread ala Slayven but I'm not that cool or resourceful, here's an old article about it though
www.cbr.com
I would do a "Remember when" thread ala Slayven but I'm not that cool or resourceful, here's an old article about it though
When Power Man and Iron Fist Teamed Up With...Doctor Who?
In their latest spotlight on bizarrely awesome comics, CSBG looks at the time that Power Man and Iron Fist teamed up with Doctor Who...kind of.
www.cbr.com
So you're saying resetting the timeline means deleting the alternate universe? That is still problematic. This would mean 2023 Cap wouldn't be able to return Loki's scepter or the time stone to that branched 2012 timeline if it no longer exists (but this is impossible based on the ending of Endgame). And it also means that the Ancient One should have listened to her gut instinct not to place her trust in Bruce to return the time stone in the first place, since she and her reality were doomed to become nothingness
I think there's prob two ways to think about this: Steve returns the Mind and Time Stones to 2012 to before Loki escapes with the tesseract (since iirc Loki grabs the tesseract after Steve and Banner get the other stones), so everything from that moment with Loki and onward is erased, but everything prior to that moment is preserved for Steve to return to. Or, there are multiple 2012 branches, each one caused by the removal of an infinity stone. Steve eliminates the alternate 2012s caused by removing the time and mind stones because he returns those stones. That just leaves the 2012 branch caused by Loki and the tesseract, which the TVA takes care of.
Either way, the end result is the same: all alternate timelines branching off from 2012 are erased, the stones are where they're supposed to be in 2012 (the tesseract with SHIELD, the mind stone in Loki's scepter, the time stone with the Ancient One), and our alternate variant Loki is basically a man without a timeline.
You're wrong on every level lol. The stones returning is the important part, not the trsseract or the ether. It always made sense.
This stuff really isn't that complicated…
Yeah, I'm hoping that in the next episode we'll see entire planets erased from existence.
No, there aren't multiple 2012 branches. Tony, Bruce, Scott, and Steve all travel together into an alternate universe in 2012. They're on the ground when they split up for their three different stone missions. To me, the fact that you are hypothesizing the timing of Steve's arrival back in 2012 to outpace the TVA's reset charge to explain how it is possible at all means the plot hasn't done enough to fully explain how the TVA operates. It's starting to feel like a plot hole. It shouldn't come down to "what ifs" from fans; Steve returning the stones is important to the story, and the story should delineate how that lines up with Loki's variation of the sacred timeline in 2012 and the TVA's subsequent reset charger.
That would certainly give reason to despise the TVA. On a side note, New Rockstar's episode 2 breakdown is trending at #2 on YouTube. Nice!
Steve and Crew stealing the stones isn't the branch. Loki grabbing the tesseract and booking it is.
Two realities go forward from that point - one where Loki doesn't grab the cube, and one where he does. The TVA pruned the one where he does, but the other remains, and that's where Steve goes to return it.
so according to you, the TVA is fine with all those branches where things changed??
Steves returns the space gem, not the tesseract, and it doesn't create another branch???
someone getting late to work does, but a infinity stone does not.
I like New Rockstars a lot, their videos are very entertaining. I also like Mr Sunday Movies for the same reason. Lots of channels do MCU breakdowns but I enjoy it when there is lots of humor and fun personalities sprinkled throughout.
Been following them since their Jessica Jones videos in 2015
Steve and who? Unless that is a typo, I'm not sure if that is an acronym. Anyway, the events of the Avengers borrowing the stones and Loki grabbing the tesseract both occur in the same alternate universe. It's one reality, the one they created by traveling back to 2012. They took the time & mind stones from that timeline. If that timeline was pruned, not only was the Ancient One wrong to trust Bruce, but Steve wouldn't be able to go back there.
Cosmic Wonder and Reel Rejects are also great especially if you are a Spider-Man fan. They covered a lot of the rumors & speculation about No Way Home
Think of it like this: that alternate timeline becomes two alternate timelines once Loki does what he does. In one - the tesseract still ends up out of reach for Steve and Tony, but Loki is still taken to Asgard (The Time Keepers would consider this the sacred timeline) In the other - what we saw, Loki ends up in Mongolia. The TVA then resets that timeline to remove the extra branch loki created.
Since we're talking about New Rockstars, I recommend that people watch the Fitness Origins series of videos on the channel. It's the hosts trying to get in shape through a sequence of MCU-themed fitness challenges and most episodes are hilarious.
They all travel to 2012 together, but the Ancient One flat out tells Banner that removing an infinity stone will cause a branch and the Avengers + Loki end up removing three. I personally don't care whether that really means there are three branches coming off of 2012 or not, because the end result is the same: Steve returns the mind and time stones, while the TVA erases everything caused by Loki escaping with the tesseract. I'm not hypothesizing what ifs, Endgame and this show tell us both of these things are what happen. Steve's return trip with the stones doesn't contradict anything the TVA does re: Loki. The Loki branch is the one thing Steve's trip doesn't account for, and the TVA takes care of it in the first 5 mins of episode 1.
Never mind the fact that:
- The source of our "rules" is unreliable.
- It's "time travel", so they could do something in the last episode that makes everything work out.
Yeah they're shady for sure. To your last point though, I don't think they're claiming to be a singular timeline as in like "everything in every universe must happen exactly the same as we've seen it in the mcu" rather "every universe has a canon series of events that coalesce into the one sacred timeline". That's my read at least.
I attribute that to comedic sarcasm of trying to downplay something. He's trying to pretend he's matured incredibly since then.
OP
OP
The one thing I'm not too clear on, is the TVA concerned at all about "doomed" timelines?
Like my assumption for the Endgame 2014 timeline is no Thanos & Gamora means no Guardians means no one to stop Ego so that universe is essentially fucked. That certainly doesn't follow "the sacred timeline" so would they have any reason to get involved there (based on what they're telling us at least)?
I'm not getting too hung up about it tho cuz I just assume they're full of shit
Like my assumption for the Endgame 2014 timeline is no Thanos & Gamora means no Guardians means no one to stop Ego so that universe is essentially fucked. That certainly doesn't follow "the sacred timeline" so would they have any reason to get involved there (based on what they're telling us at least)?
I'm not getting too hung up about it tho cuz I just assume they're full of shit