I'm not so sure. It was all supposed to happen. And considering Hulk's explanation in Endgame, I think it works.
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Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
- Entertainment Comics OT
Here's the way I see it. The Sacred Timeline is one specific timeline that the Multiverse adheres too. That doesn't necessarily mean that everything that happens in each Multiverse is exactly the same, but they must all flow down the same "path".
Think of the Multiverse as cars driving down a highway. All of them have to drive down the same street ( the Sacred Timeline), but every car, everyone inside the car, and everything that happens inside the car, is completely different.
Think of the Multiverse as cars driving down a highway. All of them have to drive down the same street ( the Sacred Timeline), but every car, everyone inside the car, and everything that happens inside the car, is completely different.
Yeup. It's been totally on the level other than the TVA being pretty shady and withholding info.
This is exactly how I see it too. Like in Endgame I don't think they traveled back in MCU Prime timeline but rather a different universe that's near identical where those events were meant to occur other than Loki taking the tesseract. And ultimately I think Ant Man being the reason they fucked around with time and the multiverse will be why Kang is involved in that next movie.
The way I see it, the Avengers did so little to disrupt things in their respective trips to the past that the alternate timelines they created are probably considered part of the "sacred timeline". In one instance they completely flubbed the procurement of an infinity stone, which may have had grave consequences (like, Thanos not being able to wipe 50% of life from the universe for 5 years kind of consequences) and would immediately set off an alarm as a variation.
Based on this logic, they probably wiped the timeline where Thanos jumped into the future and died, which makes it convenient for alternate Gamora to be "stuck" in our timeline, and for Natasha to stay dead permanently.
The TVA does reset that 2012 branch though; they activate a reset charger after they arrest Loki. They don't need to put the tesseract back in the tower because time was rewound.
Did the TVA undo 2023 Cap fighting 2012 Cap? Because Steve's job at the end of Endgame is to return all the stones right where he got them, and presumably that would mean putting Loki's scepter down next to 2012's unconscious body in Stark tower. Unless the TVA also wiped 2012 Cap's memory, the last thing he's going to remember when he wakes up is fighting Loki disguised as him, that Bucky is alive, and that Loki and the tesseract are missing. He also deceived a bunch of undercover Hydra agents too. If the TVA resetting the timeline means cloning Loki & the tesseract to put them back in the ground floor of Stark tower, Cap is going to be hella fucking confused, and so will Hydra.
If the 2014 universe was wiped out by the Avengers as well, then Steve wouldn't be able to return there to give back the soul and power stones. I don't understand how entire timelines can just be wiped out like this.
If this is true, then we need to see it happen and not just take the TVA's word for it. How exactly do Loki & the tesseract just reappear in the ground floor of Stark tower when the TVA resets time, after they are both taken into the TVA's custody? Does the TVA clone them and put them in their places?
The pruning of the branch timeline only works if you assume he didn't go back but wouldn't he logically go back to his family in the branch timeline after he left the shield?
Yeah, I don't see why not. The branches that were created by the time heist were all undone. Most of them by the Avengers themselves (by returning the stones) and the 2012 one by the TVA.
I would assume so, which is why I follow the canon as explained by Markus and McFeely that future Cap was Peggy's husband all along.
Don't we see in the first episode the TVA set a reset charger after taking Loki into custody? I think it's the first time we see a reset charger, period, no?
Loki and the tesseract aren't clone and put back in the tower. The point of 'pruning the branches' is that Loki absconding with the tesseract in the first place now never happens. Loki doesn't need to be put back because, from the perspective from everyone else in that tower, he never left and nothing ever happened. Everything that happened in that alternate 2012 just disintegrated away.
The TVA would have had to reset the 2014 branch as well. Which technically makes Gamora a variant too, but maybe the reason she isn't pruned is because she didn't necessarily do anything wrong? It wasn't her that defied history, it was Thanos, and she was along for the ride. And maybe she's *supposed* to be in the sacred timeline now for whatever reason in GOTG3.
So is the TVA something that exists in the comics?
Because I agree with those who find it a bit incongruous with the narrative of what the Infinity Stones are supposed to represent in the MCU.
The idea that these gems (or variants therein) are now tossed into drawers and treated like useless bits of bric-a-brac seems silly to me.
Especially when one of those stones is supposed to have dominance over time itself.
Because I agree with those who find it a bit incongruous with the narrative of what the Infinity Stones are supposed to represent in the MCU.
The idea that these gems (or variants therein) are now tossed into drawers and treated like useless bits of bric-a-brac seems silly to me.
Especially when one of those stones is supposed to have dominance over time itself.
Since I mentioned it multiple times, this is what Markus and McFeely said about Cap:
Right, exactly. It all comes back to what we all suspect, that the TVA is full of shit and its rules for pruning timelines are pulled out of its ass.
Right, exactly. It all comes back to what we all suspect, that the TVA is full of shit and its rules for pruning timelines are pulled out of its ass.
Re: Gamora - it also occurs to me that the 2014 variant Gamora does actually do what she's supposed to do, despite the time travel. Gamora is supposed to rebel against Thanos, make up with her sister, and join the Guardians. 2014 Gamora does the first two and will presumably fulfill the third in GOTG3. So doesn't being from a branch, she's still going along with the 'proper' flow of things.
In the comics the infinity stones don't have power outside of their native universe. It's kinda similar here. The TVA exists outside of time, so a stone that can manipulate flow of time has no power in a place where there's no time.
The idea is to make the Infinity Stones seem like small potatoes compared to whatever else comes next in the MCU. They're shrinking the threat so that the next threat seems bigger. It's all in the purpose of the future. The stones have no power in the TVA, just like Loki has no power in the TVA.
Edit: Yeah, like Blader said, in the comics the stones have no power in the alternate realities they don't come from. So the TVA is probably like that.
So is the TVA from the comics or did they invent it for the MCU?
I don't get why you clipped the rest of my post, because I explain why they possibly did not undo it. And if they did, then it that's an important plot detail, something that the show should delineate to the audience in motion.
What do you mean everything just disintegrated away? That doesn't make any sense. Steve would have no alternate 2012 to return to if there was no alternative 2012. If the TVA made it so that Loki never escaped, then what is the last thing that happens after 2023 Tony gets hit by 2012 Hulk and loses the case? This would fundamentally change Endgame too.
The TVA as represented seems to exist outside of space/time, which would make the Infinity Stones from different universes inert inside its walls. A time collar isn't going to do shit if you step onto a planet against an actual time-stone user.
Think of infinity stones out of their universe as an xbox game disc that is useless if you put it in a playstation.
The problem with this is that it requires Steve Rogers had an alternate way of going to the past of his own universe that the other characters in Endgame never acquire. The whole point of the 'time travel' the Avengers do in Endgame was that they couldn't go back in time in their own universe, they had to do so in alternate ones. So how could Steve?
Help me understand a little:
The reset charges rewinds time to before the branch happens and the variant is apprehended, and no-one from that timeline is erased or anything?
If yes, the ending of episode two confused me. Lady Loki dropped a bunch of charges throughout the timeline but how does that cause them to branch? The charges rewinds time not altering them. Lady Loki hasn't gone through the door yet (presumably to create branches in said timelines) but the TVA monitor has already showed it happening.
As much as I love time travel stories, I get lost in the weeds so often.
The reset charges rewinds time to before the branch happens and the variant is apprehended, and no-one from that timeline is erased or anything?
If yes, the ending of episode two confused me. Lady Loki dropped a bunch of charges throughout the timeline but how does that cause them to branch? The charges rewinds time not altering them. Lady Loki hasn't gone through the door yet (presumably to create branches in said timelines) but the TVA monitor has already showed it happening.
As much as I love time travel stories, I get lost in the weeds so often.
I apologize, I read the whole thing but I quoted just the part I was responding to. The creators probably thought that it was clear enough that the reset charges destroy the branch timeline in its entirety, it's possible they had a longer explanation that they pruned (heh) for pacing reasons.
OK, I Googled it and the TVA is from the comics.
I was just curious if this was something new.
I like the show personally. Gotta give Marvel/Disney credit here as each show has been a very different experience.
I was just curious if this was something new.
I like the show personally. Gotta give Marvel/Disney credit here as each show has been a very different experience.
Gamora is definitely a variant. The explanation is that the time keepers look over the sacred timeline and prune whatever branch timelines happen right? So technically you could be a variant, jump into the sacred timeline and if they deem it okay then it's okay I guess?
I think they're from the comics but I don't know what they do there or how they compare to the show.
...are you watching the show? lol. The reset charger literally disintegrates everything in a branch timeline past the point of deviation. They even use the word disintegrate!
Not sure what you mean here. The TVA resets anything that branches off the sacred timeline. The Avengers' trip to 2012 theoretically causes a couple branches but Steve prunes most of them himself by returning the Time and Mind Stones. Only the Loki/Tesseract branch is left unaccounted for, and the TVA takes care of it.
No, a variant is only a variant when they step out of what's supposed to happen. Gamora and Thanos coming into the future was "supposed to happen" hence not variants.
And as Hulk says, when you go back, you don't change your past, your past is still your past, you only change the future. So like, Gamora from the past still existed then died, this new gamora is different entirely, created when they returned to 2014.
She's not a variant if the sacred timeline script says something like 'and then an alternate Gamora pops in and stays'. It's not what you do regarding the timeline or an alternate universe that establishes if you're a variant. It just comes down to if you do what you're supposed to do or not.
Yeah, I'm sure this will be expanded on in the next ep, but Lady Loki's use of the reset chargers is the opposite of what they're supposed to do -- creating new branches instead of erasing them. Presumably she deliberately tampered with them so they'd do the opposite thing.
The simplest explanation is that he can't. The MCU timeline we have been following from the start is the one in which old Cap has always been here.
The reason they couldn't go back to their own past is because they're trying to change their own future. You can't do that without creating a branch. In TVA lingo, going back to steal infinity stones is an action with high "variance energy," which causes the timeline to splinter, creating changes that alter the course of history. You don't create a branch the minute you arrive in the past - Loki and Mobius didn't when they visited Pompeii - just when you do stuff that causes variance.
Cap staying in the 1950s doesn't necessarily change the future, because Peggy's unnamed husband had always been there. It's an act with low "variance energy" as long as he plays by the timeline as he knows it. (Which, yeah, means Steve would have to, like, let 9/11 happen but let's not think about that.)
you are thinking waaay more than the creators themselves about this
I think this is accurate.
In the cartoon infomercial in Episode 1, they basically describe this as "what if every car began chaotically driving in different ways on this same highway - they'd begin crashing and colliding. The TVA's job is to keep all cars on roughly the same track"
So then in that case it's just a predestination paradox. Possible, but I can't imagine that looks nice and clean from the TVA's perspective, but I guess if it's in the sacred timeline's script, it doesn't really matter.
The charges only do it in a limited area - we've seen a maximum of about 50 square feet so far. Presumably if you alter time when you're not supposed to (even if it's a reverse charge - e.g. what if you rolled back the central blocks of New York City 200 years?) it can also cause variants and thus heavily disrupt the timeline. She's sending these reverse charges out to countless timelines, presumably different places and with different reverse-counts, in order to make all the timelines diverge drastically.
However, I'd also assume that the 'reverse charges' as I'm calling them can make time go forward, too. So perhaps some of the charges she's sending out will accelerate time locally wherever they land.
Can't wait to see the ramifications in the next episode. It's extremely good shit.
Yeah the TVA's script for the sacred timeline here seems key. They obviously allow certain amounts of variance in every timeline - including people going back in time as long as the time they came from adjusts safely within their parameters. They can see the really big picture and how things need to end up years - decades, centuries, millenia, aeons - in the future. Thus they'd know that the Avengers going back and fucking with XYZ would end up OK because it was within variance parameters.
Basically how I feel. Marvel can't really do great emotional storytelling (WV) and REALLY cannot do politics (FWS), but they can do fun stuff pretty well. And that's why Loki has been enjoyable so far, don't think too hard and just have a good time.
ah no worries, I was just a little confused coz I was giving you an earnest response why I didn't think that is the case. But anyway, I don't think I'm the only viewer of the show, at the very least in this thread who finds the TVA's exposition a little troublesome. The last thing we saw in the 2012 branch universe was Loki in the desert. We see 15 put a reset charger there, but I really think it would be important to see the effects of the charger. Every argument of both time reset, and universe pruning goes against the ending of Endgame because it directly conflicts with Steve's mission to return the stones. He can't return the stones if the stone wasn't taken (having the events of Endgame undone), and he can't return the stones if the universe was pruned (a universe that's existence was wiped out)
Yes I am watching the show! I wasn't confused or thinking too deep about any of it until I started having convos in this thread lol. We see 15 plant a reset charger, but do we see the effects of it? If it dials back time 10 minutes then how do Loki and the tesseract reappear if that universe's Loki & tesseract were taken away? It is important for the show to delineate that, if that is what actually happened.
The mind stone was in Loki's scepter at the time, and Steve's job is to return it to the last point of their time heist which would mean putting it next to his 2012 counterpart's unconscious body. But the fact that his 2012 counterpart is lying there unconscious and not eating shawarma with his comrades - and the undercover Hydra agents are deceived - already make this universe a deviation from the main one.
I guarantee you I am not the only one. But with the way the conversations of the show have gone, the creators want the audience to overthink things
you are thinking waaay more than the creators themselves about this
The most recent episode had a line about the TVA correcting the past while the Time Lords determine the future, so I think it's less about keeping things on a certain track and more about working towards a specific outcome.
My guess is that they propagandise it as "the sacred timeline" to give the TVA a higher purpose, but really they're okay with whatever happens so long as it gets them to the outcome they want at the end.
The Avengers fucking with time may not fit "the sacred timeline", but it may have furthered their own goals, so they let it stand.
They don't "rewind time". Everything is linear and nothing really goes backwards. They just blow up the offshoot so it no longer exists. A new possibility exists for a short time, but before it can coalesce into a solid reality, they excise it entirely, leaving only the "main" track.
They're clearly playing this up with the TVA agent's disregard for people in the branches that soon won't exist anymore.
My guess is that they propagandise it as "the sacred timeline" to give the TVA a higher purpose, but really they're okay with whatever happens so long as it gets them to the outcome they want at the end.
The Avengers fucking with time may not fit "the sacred timeline", but it may have furthered their own goals, so they let it stand.
They don't "rewind time". Everything is linear and nothing really goes backwards. They just blow up the offshoot so it no longer exists. A new possibility exists for a short time, but before it can coalesce into a solid reality, they excise it entirely, leaving only the "main" track.
They're clearly playing this up with the TVA agent's disregard for people in the branches that soon won't exist anymore.
Loki and the tesseract don't need to reappear there though. It's not as if there's a Loki/tesseract-shaped hole in the 2012 timeline that needs to be filled by returning Loki and the tesseract. Everything past the point of Loki stealing the tesseract just never happens; it's disintegrated by the reset charge. Loki stealing the cube and escaping never happens. Loki remains in custody and the tesseract remains in SHIELD's possession because the action of Loki stealing it is erased.
That's exactly how I see it, very well explained. This is the theory I subscribe to.
I think we will see what the reset charges do eventually, I get the feeling that it is kept as a (potentially gruesome) surprise. The way I see and understand it, Steve returning the stones has the same end result that the reset charges have, which is to clip the branches and return the timeline to normal.
Yep... all correct. And if it resets Steve and Tony do not go to 1970s and Endgame (the canon) has to change. But thats obtuse and over thinking and you should just accept that a bomb fixed everything. ;)
(My belief is at the end of season 2 which was either rumored or annouced, Loki will accept his fate and return to the timeline to play it to its conclusion)
Agree with all of this, except that I still liked WandaVision despite the ending.
As to the bolded, I'm not sure which is more annoying: the people nitpicking the time travel apart, or the people who jump through hoops to insist that it actually does make sense.
TVA will be revealed to be evil or serving Kang's interest, and none of the details will be hashed out. There will be fans saying "but what about x" forever after. Its a fun game to play, but we are only 2 eps in and Im betting most of this will not be settled, just labeled "timey wimey" at the end.
"But TVA said…" and they were evil, or lying, or duped by Ravonna to serve Kang. Doesnt matter, now we have a true multiverse and all of their rules go out the window. You can solve all of the inconsistencies with one line of dialogue at the end and leave the new big time/multiverse problem for Doc Strange.
"But TVA said…" and they were evil, or lying, or duped by Ravonna to serve Kang. Doesnt matter, now we have a true multiverse and all of their rules go out the window. You can solve all of the inconsistencies with one line of dialogue at the end and leave the new big time/multiverse problem for Doc Strange.
Hey, I have a potential nitick that isn't about how time travel works--
Wasn't Loki unaware that he was Laufey's son at the time of Avengers 1? I mean, I don't really care but he doesn't flinch at being called Laufeyson and that should at least warrant a double-take on his part.
Unless I have the order of things mixed up.
Wasn't Loki unaware that he was Laufey's son at the time of Avengers 1? I mean, I don't really care but he doesn't flinch at being called Laufeyson and that should at least warrant a double-take on his part.
Unless I have the order of things mixed up.
Just think of TVA agents having Admin rights for time travel
No, Odin told him in Thor 1. Then he killed Laufey.
No, Odin told him in Thor 1. Then he killed Laufey.
It's a plot point in Thor 1, to the point where he betrays Laufey because he thinks it'll give him Asgard.
By your exact definitions those are variants. They are just variants the Time Keepers deem they want to keep.
What Gamora was supposed to do was the shit that lead into GOTG1/2 and go on to die in Infinity War. Like you said this is NEW Gamora. The branch her and Thanos came from should have been pruned and her too. She's just there because suddenly the Time Keepers decide to keep this said variant (aka plot or probably something they didn't even think of)