Right that works... but it didn't happen. Loki left and we now know he was captured by the TVA. Endgame played out how Endgame played out. Kevin Fiege has said movie are the priority for canon ie you dont need to watch the tv shows. So according to our last movie Loki stole space stone and vanished in 2012. There has to be an explantion outside of they used a bomb to fix it. If they did that nothing in the 2nd half of Endgame happens how we saw it.
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Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
- Entertainment Comics OT
Yes, I dont know if they clone them, but they have been pretty clear about what "healing the timeline" does. It goes back to what would have happened outside of the event that the variant/variation created. Loki was taken to Asgard and things played out the way we saw and he was eventually killed by Thanos having no otherworldly idea that a "variant" of himself even existed.
For all we know the "other version" was the End Game Avengers failing to get that stone due to some other reason, like their sneaky plan failing some other way. Loki wasnt the only way for that to go south.
If this is what they claim that they did, then it is a very important plot point and it's not something that should be just done with expositional dialogue. You can't even say for sure how the 2012 Loki & tesseract are put back into place so the fact that it is still unclear means they haven't cleared it up enough
you joke but Xbox Ultimate sounds like a better name for a console than the last two generations that Microsoft came up with
It seems like we know (and understand) little so far compared to how much is left to be revealed of the TVA. Saying "for all we know" as a pretext doesn't cover up the gaps in storytelling of this show, it's the show's job to explain it
That was a really fun episode. I'm surprised they ended it the way they did. I thought we would have at least one full episode of Loki being a time cop. I'm curious if the captured field agent will turn out to be a recurring character. Her repetition of "it's real" sounds vaguely ominous. Two episodes in, and I'm now convinced the Time Keepers are either long dead, or died out a long time ago and some other power replaced them and twisted the TVA.
Also, Mobius is probably a variant of some kind right? When he talks to Loki he gives the impression he was created by the Time Keepers like the rest of the TVA, but his conversation with the judge made that seem less concrete. I doubt he's another Loki variant, but maybe someone else who was pulled out of time. The only major Marvel time traveler I know of who isn't a mutant is Kang, but that doesn't seem to fit Mobius.
Also, Mobius is probably a variant of some kind right? When he talks to Loki he gives the impression he was created by the Time Keepers like the rest of the TVA, but his conversation with the judge made that seem less concrete. I doubt he's another Loki variant, but maybe someone else who was pulled out of time. The only major Marvel time traveler I know of who isn't a mutant is Kang, but that doesn't seem to fit Mobius.
What I'm assuming is that the "One Sacred Timeline" means that all other timelines are erased, and that, generally speaking, what we see on screen is generally part of the One Sacred Timeline. Those are all assumptions, though, I don't think they're necessarily true.
The TVA can't allow Captain America to know that Bucky is alive in 2012, because we know what occurred in the One Sacred Timeline - Captain America learns that Bucky is alive during the events of the Winter Soldier. If TWS doesn't happen, Civil War doesn't happen, and then Endgame doesn't happen and there's no time heist at all.
There are acceptable bits of time travel that would not create branches - say, traveling back to Pompeii and fucking around right before it gets destroyed. Informing 2012 Captain America that Bucky is alive isn't one of them, and thus, has to be pruned.
Sure - if you take everything that happened on screen in Endgame as canon, the rules laid out in Loki don't work. So either Endgame is wrong, Loki (the show) is wrong, or the TVA is wrong. But I don't think they're establishing all of these rules for how the TVA functions for no reason.
Ultimately, creating a workable time travel ruleset is insanely tough even for something without as many moving pieces as the MCU, and any satisfying version is going to be full of fanfiction.
It's right there in the cartoon (spoilered for big images)
Variant gets taken away:
Timeline restored, original dude goes back to what he was doing:
Variant stands trial:
Timeline restored, original dude goes back to what he was doing:
Variant stands trial:
There's 2 of them now. The original and the variant. The variant is supposed to get deleted.
It's more likely that the TVA stopped Loki getting the Tesseract in the first place. All they really needed to do was put the Tesseract back in the suitcase, anyway, so that Loki couldn't run off with it.
The time-traveling Avengers would obviously still fail to take the Tesseract for themselves, keeping the Sacred Timeline intact, but that does mean that there's a Variant Loki running around without a universe to belong to because the original Loki would be in a cell on Asgard by now.
People are thinking too hard about the rules of variance and whatnot when it's clear the entire TVA is sus. There are probably no Timekeepers and the entire pocket dimension the TVA exists in probably shouldn't and is being kept in existence by them effectively ensuring their own survival by removing any unexpected factors that could be threats.
I think varients, diverging timelines, and multiple realities are supposed to happen. The TVA is artificially limiting it with some bullshit backstory because they want to maintain a timeline where they can continue to exist... "for all time."
I think varients, diverging timelines, and multiple realities are supposed to happen. The TVA is artificially limiting it with some bullshit backstory because they want to maintain a timeline where they can continue to exist... "for all time."
The show is already extremely exposition heavy, to the point that some reviewers are turned off by it. I dont see them spending another half an hour droning on about Endgame.... I mean, I guess if that ruins it for you thats fair but. Its a comic book universe, they give an explanation thats good enough and most are gonna roll with it.
Hell I didnt expect THAT much thought to have even been put into this. I was genuinely shocked that they bothered to explain how Lady Loki could hide in time without setting off alarm bells. They could have easily just left that up in the air and I dont suspect it would matter to most. I guess Im saying I dont think the show feels that its their "job to explain how this all worked with Endgame with surgical precision" I think they just want to push out some entertainment and develop this character a bit while setting up future films/shows.
Didn't they technically travel to an alternate timeline in Endgame? Like as in a different universe. So like if MCU is 616 they traveled to 615. Wasn't that one of the caveats of their going back? Or am I misremembering. If I'm right here then THAT 2012 Steve could totally be allowed to know all that according to the sacred timeline
Even beyond the show, the Ancient One has name dropped the multiverse and her understanding of branch realities make it seem it exists and it's not something that necessarily was all pruned into the way it is now into a sacred timeline before she was ever born. Even if you just chalk that up to her own ignorance and outdated information, if No Way Home is going to be dealing with Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield Spider-Men for other universes where there wasn't a Tom Holland Spider-Man, it seems like they'd have to be happening concurrently.
I don't think it's necessarily a plot hole or anything, since the TVA explicitly says what the Avengers did was meant to happen and presumably even with Steve returning the Infinity Stones, him staying in a timeline would seem to create a branch, so I just think that there is more to the multiverse than we are being told.
another great episode. and the music is amazing. they seem to be leaning pretty hard into the tva is bad, actually angle. the all order no chaos thing seemed important, loki did a scrunch face to that. nice little shout out too. owen wilson is great, tom hiddleston is great, lady loki already seems great. really fun show
I'm assuming that all alternate timelines ARE branches, and to be pruned immediately. There's no other universes, and no other 2012 Steve, because if they allowed that it would prevent multiverse warfare.
Hulk's "you can't travel to the past and change the future, because the future is your past" speech is more or less equivalent to "if you go back and time and try to change the One Sacred Timeline, you'll instead create a branch and go to time jail."
I don't think that's true, unless the whole point of this show is to create the multiverse. Which that would be interesting
They didn't prune the entire timeline. They pruned the Nexus event specifically, which was Loki appearing in Mongolia. Upon resetting the nexus event, that timeline returned to how it was before. Timelines can heal themselves if they're reset before they reach a red line.
I do think that'll ultimately be the point of the show - the TVA fails and suddenly there's a bunch of branches and alternate universes, causing trouble for Dr. Strange and Spider-Man and whoever else. It might have happened already, if they can't fix Lady Loki's bombing run before all those new timelines cross the red line.
Right but that didnt happen. Thats completely "what ifs". Loki stole the tessaract forcing Cap and Tony to go further back. Thats the acceptable "sacred timeline" (and MCU canon). Loki stole stone, time heist disrupted. Anything otherwise means Endgame changes. Loki the tv show has to work around Endgame and what happened in it.
Then perhaps nothing needs to be changed at all. If the Sacred Timeline only requires Loki to disappear from New York with the Tesseract, then Loki must be forced to become a Variant according to the will of the Time Keepers. Then Steve will later return to 2012 and undo everything that the Avengers changed, but it won't help the Loki that was stranded in time before.
That just means the Time Keepers screwed Loki from the start.
so the timekeepers are probably gone huh
that girl kept saying she gave away their location
then all those reset bombs went to a mysterious location and as a result the timeline went all wacky
those lizards are toast
that girl kept saying she gave away their location
then all those reset bombs went to a mysterious location and as a result the timeline went all wacky
those lizards are toast
Right... but then Dark World, Ragnarok and Infinity War are completely different. Frigga and Odin possibly live and Thor, Hulk and Valkyrie possibly die. Its really a possible major plothole I hope they address.
Remember. You can't alter your own timeline by time traveling. You can just create new branches. So yes, theoretically, in THAT VERSION of 2012, Ragnarok may not have happened the same way.
A lot of stuff going on and I'm just happy Miss Minutes turned out to be an actual character and not just used for propaganda films.
So the TVA are liars then and there are likely infinite timelines. Maybe they control this one by claiming there is only one?
This is where I am at. The Avengers were supposed to miss their chance to get the Tesseract in 2012, but Loki ending up with it was not supposed to happen. It would have either fallen back in the hands of Shield, Hydra, or even 2012 Thor… but not Loki
There aren't infinite timelines and there isn't only one. The Sacred Timeline is just the one they're the most focused on preserving. They've even said that not all branches are destructive enough to cause Nexus events.
Miss Minutes' cartoon wasn't enough to convince Loki and it certainly wasn't enough to convince me. The last thing that happened in the 2012 universe was Thor and Tony looking around their surroundings for Loki and the tesseract that disappeared. If that cartoon was saying it was undone, then it's important to show us how exactly it was undone, especially since the show literally started off with scenes from Endgame that took place in 2012.It's right there in the cartoon (spoilered for big images)
Variant gets taken away:
Timeline restored, original dude goes back to what he was doing:
Variant stands trial:
There's 2 of them now. The original and the variant. The variant is supposed to get deleted.
I'm assuming by original Loki, you mean another Loki that was replaced by the 2012 Loki that is the protagonist of this show. So if you're saying it isn't that the TVA cloned him and the tesseract, what method do they use to undo the events of him getting arrested, him showing up in the desert, and him disappearing with the tesseract?
Putting the cube back in the suitcase is not all they need to do, because if that is all they do, then 2023 Tony would still get knocked out by 2012 Hulk. What happens to the suitcase after that if the TVA makes sure that the one that doesn't happen is that Loki takes it?
This show is practically inviting the idea of thinking too hard about the rules of variance. I don't think they are trying to lead the viewer to believe that the TVA can't be trusted; there hasn't really been any scenes implying something sinister, only that they are a governing authority trying to keep order and avoid chaos. I do distrust them, not because I think the show wants me to, but because a lot of what they said to Loki doesn't make sense to me.
Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the show, but it has its flaws. Marvel is aiming for higher storytelling and I can be a harsh critic, so credit where it's due but criticism where it's due too. The fact that they have done so much exposition is a point against the show and if they don't bother to clear up some of the things that have a portion of the audience unable to follow along, then it loses more points with storytelling in my opinion. Either way though I am here for it.
That's what they say, but they don't show us how the healing takes place. Just as I said earlier in this post, at what point was the 2012 timeline restored to? And whenever that was, did they clone Loki and the tesseract to keep the sacred timeline in tact for this branch universe? Because if they did, then that's really important; it's not something the show should expect the viewer to assume
I think it could be assumed that if Loki doesn't steal the Tesseract and escape, most of the variations created but Tony, Scott, and Steve could have self-corrected, especially after the TVA set off the reset charge. Loki doesn't grab the Tesseract, but now someone else sees it and Scott and Tony still feel the mission was a failure because they lose track of it or can't get it again. There was already the chaos of Hulk scaring people out of the building and Tony/Thor arguing with Pierce to give them cover, and it's possible that window was small anyways.
Since the TVA said what the Avengers did was supposed to happen, that gives them a lot of leeway about what the TVA will allow to make that possible, including them allowing some time travel shenanigans.
Interestingly, this feels like the best evidence yet in support of the Ancient One's theory that removing an Infinity Stone is a surefire way to create a nexus event that triggers a branch reality because we see that Loki taking away an Infinity Stone in a way that will guarantee that events veer from the sacred timeline. Maybe that is why the TVA explicitly has to many variant Infinity Stones in a drawer since they run into removals of an Infinity Stone that prevents the sacred timeline like, say someone else stole the Orb from Morag instead of Peter Quill. That wouldn't be messing with time, but it would be preventing Quill getting it that would definitely prevent the sacred timeline as we've seen it happen.
2012 Steve probably got his mind wiped by the scepter, so he may not remember that interaction. Besides, he believed it was known liar Loki in disguise, so even if he remembered their interaction, a lot of that could be explained away with Loki being evil, being a liar, having magic, and the fact that Steve never interacts with him again before he dies.
Sitwell hearing Cap tell him "Hail HYDRA" and taking the scepter seems like a bigger thing to have consequences, but if he returns it to a point before that hand off, maybe that is enough to mend the timeline, because otherwise the simple act of taking an Infinity Stone should trigger a branch timeline regardless if it's returned to the same point. Assuming that the Ancient One is right in that returning a stone would help heal the timeline, it would have to give them a bit of wiggle room there.
They did show it, unless I'm missing something? They reset the timeline back to what it was.
I think the show is absolutely inviting the idea of thinking too hard AND dropping hints that the TVA can't be trusted. Not only do some things not make sense, but the entire Timekeepers thing with the corny retro cartoons and all the hints that most of the characters have never even seen them, certainly imply something! :)
It's certainly setting up for a reveal that the Timekeepers are absolutely not what they are presented as, and possibly don't even exist in that form.
They reset the variance in that particular location - Loki in the desert talking to the locals. Is there any indication that the Avengers stuff before that was part of the variance too?
It's certainly very suspect that:
a) The Avengers disrupting the timeline don't count but Loki escaping does
b) The TVA has been killing a lot of Loki variants in particular
c) There's a Loki out there with an axe to grind with the TVA
It seems like the TVA and Loki could be intertwined in deeper ways that either of them know.
I mean the person in charge is freaking Ravonna the bride(and rival) of Kang, surprised more people aren't jumping on that little fact. Also Mobius(and his duplicates) are special stock designed to be more flexible and useful than the rest of the TVA in the comics, that's why they're middle managers. Kinda teased it with the other analyst nod
The TVA absolutely is sinister. They vaporize people for being late to work or not taking a queue ticket when there's no one else in the waiting room.
They reset timelines and vaporize people for doing anything they deem against the "correct" timeline, which appears to be completely arbitrary. They didn't bring up Loki's spiel about free will being the greatest lie in the first episode for no reason. The TVA exists to remove free will. Every time they prune a branch or vaporize someone, the only consistent factor is that the TVA thinks someone chose wrongly. The show is forcing Loki to confront his belief that free will is a burden.
Given that the show has said that the reset charge "heals the timeline" and it's not just by deletion, it presumable can create as well as destroy in order to reset things to the proper timeline. The way I think of it now (since we have seen they have a limit window in time before the nexus event hits the redline and branches permanently) is that the reset charge effects an area that is effected by the nexus event (be that a person or action) and everything that person would have been able to interact with during that window. Maybe that makes the area of influence of a charge as big as a city, as big as a planet, or as big as a galaxy.
The redline suggest that their hard deadline could be due to the range of the charge since there is a relationship between time and space, so if they have a few minutes of real time until it's too late to heal the timeline, perhaps that is the maximum range that a person could feasibly travel and interact with other people and objects before they are out of range to reset everything necessary to maintain the sacred timeline.
Not at all. Steve undid all the changes that were made, remember. If anything, Loki getting whisked away to another universe by the TVA probably makes him immune to any reversions of the timeline. He's not going to just stop existing because Steve went back and stopped him from taking the Tesseract.
Oh I'm sure there's more to it and that the TVA is up to something. I just mean with what we know now it doesn't feel like a plothole to me. We already know Loki went back to Asgard and eventually dies to Thanos because we saw it happen, and Loki saw it happen too in Ep 1. So at least for now, I'm taking that part of Miss Minutes' video as truth and that the whole branch got pruned.
I haven't read the discourse here but sounds about right. MCU clearly says time travel is this or don't worry about details. Meanwhile the internet says no that doesn't make sense and that's not how it works at all.
Again..."what ifs" that would not happen and did not according to Endgame. Steve would not go back and stop Loki. His mission was to return the stones. Stopping Loki puts him at risk for failing his mission as well as possibly altering the timeline which they were aware they couldnt do. It also requires you to film more scenes with Chris Evans to show this, which i cant see happening for this show, skipping FaTWS.
Still, Bayonetta 3 hasn't been released on the >new< Nintendo Miitch ;-(
I assume the reasons people aren't talking about it is because either they don't know the comic background or they do but just want to avoid another Mephisto situation. The latter is probably better for everyone since if people are right, then all the flaunting of comic knowledge for internet bragging rights becomes a spoiler for everyone not "in the know", and if people are wrong, then casual fans just have more reasons to complain about the loud speculation because they don't understand the references and it ultimately didn't matter anyways.
Slayven sorry if I missed a post but how are you feeling about Mobius's boss being freaking Ravonna the bride/Rival of Kang. Now there's a big setup
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Plus they explicitly pointed out her first and last name
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Eh cept Kang's been cast, this is more of an Agatha/Mr Scratch situation than a Mephisto one
Plus they explicitly pointed out her first and last name
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