What?! The TVA just deleted the 2012 universe?? Then how would 2023 Cap be able to go back there to return Loki's scepter & the time stone?
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Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
- Entertainment Comics OT
I don't think the timeline was deleted. They just delete the period of time that is a variance. The splinter basically.
God DAMN this show is fucking GOOD.
And the soundtrack is insanely good. Good fucking lord man.
Definitely this is next level and I absolutely loved WVision more than most people did.
Damn man this is incredible.
And the soundtrack is insanely good. Good fucking lord man.
Definitely this is next level and I absolutely loved WVision more than most people did.
Damn man this is incredible.
what does that even mean though? Loki was there, did they undo the events of him showing up in the desert? If they did, then what was the last thing that happened in 2012?
But the splinter must remain. It's not a variance. Without him grabbing the Tessaract and leaving, Cap and Tony just return to Avengers headquarters and unsnap everything. Cap doesn't see Peggy in 73, Tony likely doesn't die (this could happen though because Nebula is the reason Thanos attacks). Either way it deletes old man Cap and likely Falcon Cap.
They haven't explained everything yet and I hope they do. It is definitely a bit confusing. I would like to say they just reverse it back to the point where he was going to take the space stone and make it so that doesn't happen.
Not necessarily. Cap and them continued on with their mission with no interference. They already said what happened was supposed to happen. Cap was supposed to go back to 1973 which he did otherwise he would had been taken by the time cops as well. Loki wasn't supposed to take the stone. I know him taking the stone was what led to Cap doing what he did, but the keepers clearly deemed that 'needed' by not sending the TVA to him in 1973. They just moved back the part where Loki did his variance and let everything else continue the way it did. They have already shown an ability to isolate what time they are moving backwards. They continuously showed moving Loki backwards in time in the first episode without touching anything else so they can definitely move back certain, specific events in isolation if needed to clean things up.
I mean it's confusing. That's why I think there is more to all of this such as multiverses which they haven't explained yet. Otherwise none of it perfectly fits, not sure if it has to perfectly fit anyway.
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I don't think the 2012 timeline was deleted. They just deleted the timeline created by Loki traveling to the desert.
Cap wasnt supposed to go back to 1973 at all. They went back because Loki stole it. Their plan was to get it there. Loki "changed" that. Where he saw and remembered Peggy... forgetting making out with her neice of course.
Yes, I mentioned that in my post already.
Regardless, if we are playing by the rules of the timekeepers, if he wasn't supposed to do that, then the TVA would had taken him as a variance. They did not. Whatever Cap did fits the sacred timeline.
Again not everything is lining up perfectly and it's clear the timekeepers are probably picking and choosing what a variance is. Based on the rules given to us, though, what happened was deemed acceptable by the TVA and at the least deemed to be of little 'variance energy'. If he wasn't supposed to do it, the TVA would had been all over him based on what we know currently.
Right.... so then back to 2012. Tonys picks up stone, back to future, unsnap, movie ends. That didnt happen though. They were forced to go back further in time to find the stone again. Loki changed Endgame's plot into what we know as canon now by disappearing with the stone at that moment.
But he does take the space stone. The tesseract is confiscated by the TVA, he sees it in Casey's cabinet along with a bunch of other useless stones. So that doesn't get undone. Yeah it's confusing, they really need to clear this up more.
The 2012 timeline is the one created by Loki traveling to the desert. That is the last thing we know of that happens there.
edit: I don't even think it's fair to say Loki is the one who created the timeline. The Avengers did by time traveling in the first place
Like mentioned, they have shown that they can move certain events backwards in isolation. They let Cap continue going backwards in time while removing what Loki did from the timeline. Both can be true.
Cap doesnt go back in time unless Loki steals the stone. Its that basic.
I don't get it. Maybe I missed something, but what exactly did they do to remove what Loki did from the timeline? The tesseract is gone from the 2012 universe since it is now in the TVA's possession, and Loki is gone too since he is in their custody. The last thing we saw happen in the 2012 universe is Thor and Tony realizing that both Loki and the tesseract are missing. How did the TVA undo this? What indication did we get from the show that this was changed to match the events of the sacred timeline?
They pruned the branch that Loki created. That Tesseract is a variant so they kept it.
Exactly... and if they dont have Loki take the stone, Tony and Cap return to future with stone. 1973 doesnt happen. Cap doesnt see Peggy and decide to return to her in the 1940s.
Ok so then what happens then in the 2012 heist? Tony picks it up and heads to future again?
Little side note: watch the few seconds of the establishing shot on Alabama where the debris from the storm destroys the sign then reveals the city during the storm with Foxxmart in the background. It's fucking stunning. Their VFX artists created one of the coolest establishing shots I've ever seen.
Yeah, I think this checks all the boxes for me to be able to recommend to just about anyone. I do think they probably need some background knowledge of the MCU to really appreciate the premise and just Loki as a character, but I think I'd recommend it for anyone that is at least a casual MCU fan.
It took me a few episodes into Wandavision to think it's worth a recommendation (I think by episode 3-4 I felt that almost anyone could get something out of the show) and TFatWS was a show where I think that if someone like action films and could dig on some of the themes, it's a more specific recommendation I'd give to people if they weren't already a fan of the MCU who watches a good amount of the movies, but I think if someone has, for instance seen The Avengers and probably Endgame, I think that is probably enough of a baseline familiarity with the MCU and Loki that they won't get too caught up on all the other references.
The show itself seems pretty accessible, but it's baked into some MCU lore, sci-fi, and time travel rules that even people who have watched Endgame several times still get hung up on, so I can see the exposition dumps from the first episode and this one enough that some people could bounce off. Even just judging by the reaction here to the first episode, it's still not going to be for everyone, but the first episodes for Wandavision and TFatWS seemed more divisive.
What do you mean they pruned it? That is so incredibly vague based on all the TVA has revealed to the audience thus far.
There just needs to be more explanation of it. I think they should show more of the 2012 universe, what do Shield & the Avengers do about the missing cube & perpetrator that orchestrated the alien invasion
Literally pruned, as in snipped it off. The timeline no longer exists
Sophia di Martino, who has been in a million things but I don't know that many have made it to the states, or become prominent here.
But that branch directly created what we saw in Endgame.
great first half, as other people have said the multiple fight sequences in the second half were odd and felt very out of place. Interested to see where it all goes, it still all feels very mysterious which is usually the best part.
Looks like the only thing I've seen her in was Yesterday but I don't recall who she played there.
They put the reset bomb down. So the event should have reverted back to what it was before. Loki and the Tesseract go back to Asgard and eventually Loki gets killed by Thanos like he's supposed to.
Meanwhile, the 2nd Loki and Tesseract created by the splinter event get sent to the TVA. The extra Tesseract gets put in the drawer with the other out-of-time stuff and the variant Loki was to stand trial and then be deleted from existence.
Sure, but our characters left the branch, so they wouldn't be affected. This isn't confirmed, just how I would explain it.
- Avengers travel back to 2012.
- Time and Mind Stones are grabbed, but the Space Stone gets stolen by Loki.
- Avengers decide to jump back one more time to get the old Space Stone.
- Loki, having escaped, is captured by the TVA.
- Steve Rogers pops back to 2012 with the Time and Mind Stones, returns them, hops back to return another one.
- The TVA, satisfied that it's served its purpose for the Sacred Timeline, prunes the branch.
You could honestly go even further out, and say that Loki grabbing the Tesseract was a branch on top of a branch; they were supposed to fail to get the Space Stone, but they weren't supposed to let Loki get it.
He's not a variant as far as we know. Time travel shenanigans aren't inherently what makes you a variant. It's whether you do something that the Time Keepers think goes against the Sacred Timeline--which is the arbitrary one they chose as the "correct" one. They might give some reason for their choice of timeline later, but there's nothing about a timeline that makes it inherently more "valid" than any other. Validity is externally applied by the TVA.
Literally, it's "you did something the Time Keepers don't like". They're essentially absolute tyranny in disguise.
Captain isn't a variant. Remember, simply changing things, or traveling in time isn't what makes you a variant. Think back to the cartoon; they mentioned you could be a variant for being late to work one day.
What makes you a variant is the act of doing something you weren't pre-ordained to do according to the sacred timeline.
The idea is that Cap wasn't a variant because his actions were supposed to happen according to the sacred timeline. Had he decided NOT to time travel, he would have been a variant, because that would have pulled him off of the path of the "approved timeline."
Supposedly a person can time travel, and change stuff all they want; as long as that was part of the pre-written plan. You dont become a variant until you do something the timekeepers didnt forsee/design.
More importantly the Time Keepers, if they even exist, or the TVA beaurocracy decided that the Avengers messing with time was an ultimate part of the sacred timeline. They didn't break anything because whatever ripples they caused were MEANT to happen or something.
At least that's what I got out of Loki's conversation in court in Episode 1.
In my brain them pruning the branch wouldn't even need to wait for Steve to come back. A completely new timeline was created once Loki grabbed the tesseract. Steve would have traveled back to the unsullied timeline to return the stones. Or even simpler, Steve coming back happened simultaneously with them taking them since it would have had to be done at the exact moment to maintain reality or whatever the ancient one says
This show is so fun to watch. Owen Wilson and Loki have such good chemistry. Not sure the show makes any real sense, but I'm not even thinking about logic at all with this one!
Chicken and egg. You can't have one without the other.
But if Loki hadnt stolen the stone... Cap would never go back to 73. You can't have Loki stealing the stone and not stealing the stone at the same time, especially if the claim is the branch is deleted. If its deleted Loki goes back to Asgard and the time heist is a success. And .....Steve had to return to 1973 to return the space stone. Not 2012. And he only has one. The TVA has the other.
I originally thought the same thing, but I think there was enough damage in Steve getting the Mind Stone - whispering Hail HYDRA to Sitwell, beating himself up AND telling himself that Bucky was alive - that you couldn't conceivably keep that clean. It would have to be a branch at that point, because the way "our" Steve and "our" Sitwell act for in Winter Soldier doesn't make sense if it occurred in the Sacred Timeline.
I mean, there's all sorts of ways he could. They try to grab the stone, Hulk makes them drop it, but Thor or SHIELD Agent #45 stops Loki from getting it. They quickly go off and zip it to Asgard. They've lost their opportunity to grab the stone, so they have to go back to 1973, but Loki doesn't escape. That's all headcanon - it's nothing we ever see play out on screen - but it fits nicely enough.
This episode actually lends some credence to that - if you fuck around in places where nothing happens, like right before a cataclysm, the "variance energy" is lower. Everything the Avengers did in 2012 was low variance energy, which stops the timeline from redlining. What Loki did, escaping, was a HUGE variance from the true timeline, and caused a ton of variance energy beyond the acceptable bounds of the Avengers time heist.
You don't necessarily have to keep it clean if all that was supposed to happen according to the Time Keepers though right? Loki's the only problem in the branch, we saw the variant in the movie, not the sacred timeline
That doesn't make sense. It just can't be possible. If the timeline no longer exists, then
a. It wouldn't be possible for Steve to travel back there to return the tesseract and the time stone and
b. The Ancient One was right to not place her trust in Bruce for returning the stones, since she and her reality are doomed to become nothingness - although this is because of Scott & Tony, not Bruce
Are you saying that they reversed the universe's time by like 10 minutes, and cloned Loki & the tesseract or something to put them back into the ground floor of Stark tower? Because if that's not what you're saying, then your explanation doesn't make sense either.
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The timeline that's pruned is the one created by Loki when he grabs the tesseract, not the one Steve would travel back. Think of that scene as one timeline splitting into a new timeline the second Loki grabs the cube. That new timeline was deleted, the old timeline continues as if he never did it.
