When it's as entertaining as this, by all means give me more of the
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Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
- Entertainment Comics OT
When it's as entertaining as this, by all means give me more of the
Into the Spider-Verse already stole Earth-616 for Peter B. Parker anyway. 😜
Infinity Stones do work outside their own universe in the MCU though. Hence, Endgame.
Actually...wait so the time travel in Endgame is explicitly not going back in time on one timeline, its jumping into another timeline correct? So the idea is, like someone mentioned earlier, that the TVA likely just keeps all parallel timelines on track? Instead of there literally just being one?
But loki only escaped because the future avengers interfered if loki wasnt there then the future avengers wouldn't have gone to the 50s or 70s or whatever like they apparently were supposed to do
So far I think you're supposed to just accept that the time gods decide what is accepted and not accepted according to some secret decision making process.
That's really the only thing that makes sense given how the Marvel Multiverse works where every officially released Marvel project is canon to the multiverse.
It's just weird because the future avengers only traveled back to the military base because the tesseract was gone from 2012..which they caused by being there..so how is this loki's fault lol
I think we will have to wait if the MCU clarifies the terminology. Different timelines can exist in the same universe (the X-Men horrible futures are all on 616, people travel back and forth in time in the same universe).
This show seems to be saying that different timelines and different universes are the same thing, but I dunno, I feel it complicates things further actually, because what would that mean for their own "what if" show?
The Avengers were supposed to interfere. Loki wasn't supposed to interfere with the Avengers.
Oh another OT all about how the integrity of the MCU must be completely perfect and finding every possible hole to poke?
It's fiction people. Entertainment > Perfect consistency. I think they do plenty of explanation to make it not feel totally cheap.
It's fiction people. Entertainment > Perfect consistency. I think they do plenty of explanation to make it not feel totally cheap.
I think people need to wait until the season is over because I have a sneaking suspicion either the TVA are lying or the time lords are lying to the TVA about the multiverse history. I could be wrong though.
The only way this makes sense to me is if we're playing by Doctor Who rules, i.e "What matters is that everyone ends up where they're supposed to be, not what happens to them on the way there". The Avengers were supposed to jump timelines, recover the stones, and defeat Thanos, and that's exactly what happened. Loki was supposed to die at Thanos' hand, not escape in 2012, so the TVA scoops him up
"But wait" you say "doesn't the butterfly effect mean that even if the Avengers got the right sequence of final events to play out, all the differences caused by Loki disappearing would create all their own ripple effects and alternate histories?"
To which the answer is probably "Its TV time travel, we're going to handwave that bit"
But that means tbey were supposed to go back to the military base...but the only reason they had to was becuase the Tesseract was gone from 2012...and no one else knows how to use it in that situation other than loki (maybe thor?)
Something like that. Makes for quite the uniform multiverse, if what the TVA claim is true.
I don't think they're really accomplishing what they claim, however.
Endgame already had different (or identical) timelines as different universes. That's how the Avengers could go back to 2012, fuck it up, and leave with no consequence for their own timeline.
He's guilty because the time gods say he is. At this point we're supposed to just blindly believe the system.
I know what you're saying but I feel this was a heavy handed way for the show runners to just be like "yeah yeah we know it's complicated, just forget about it for now so we can start telling our story".
Also its very bullshit if Cap jumping back to live out his life through the 20th century isn't a violation but Loki escaping is
No it doesn't. The implication is that they were supposed to just get the Tesseract in 2012.
Loki then interfered and prolonged their time travel.
Sure, but if they go ahead with what if and what people are assuming the spider-verse is, that will muck things up. Why isn't the TVA resetting all those timelines/universes?
It makes, as you said, for a uniform multiverse, but then it is not really a "multi"verse, isn't it?
When it's as entertaining as this, by all means give me more of the
This could be the better call Saul to wandavision's breaking bad...
...nah, Saul's too good.
Between the 34th and 35th minute though - no talking required, that was something to see.
No becuse cao gets the idea to stay with Peggy..after he see's her at the military base.
I actually didn't care for this as much as most people seem to. It's way too exposition dumpy for what I presume will be a short episode run. The whole thing felt like they were terrified they'd lose viewers and kept over explaining everything. Loki also seemed way too dense; he's way too clever to have resisted the idea of the TVA for as long as he did (and was likely only written that way to be the audience surrogate).
The best MCU+ opener is still WandaVision 1+2.
The best MCU+ opener is still WandaVision 1+2.
This entire thing reminds me of a short story by sci-fi author Greg Egan, about exactly this concept actually. Its about a "parallel universe enforcement agent" who's job is to track down people who are jumping through alternate realities and kill them because doing so causes ripple effects that damage the world around them. He believes that his agency has basically a 100% success record, until one mission where he catches up with his target and discovers that no, actually they fail as often as they succeed and the act of catching the target is just as subject to the splitting of timelines as anything else
The TVA might not be doing nearly as good a job as they think they are at keeping the multiverse in check
There's no reason to think that Cap wouldn't have done that either way.
(You're overcomplicating it for yourself. It's a fantasy time travel story.)
So they pretty much left a way for Loki to escape death if this variant gets back to their timeline somehow since Loki now has future knowledge of the exact moment they die and the TVA people didn't see that part (If I remember right).
My thought is, the TVA can go to any point in any timeline to fix or prune any timeline they want, but they still have to go down a checklist of missions, essentially. So if Timeline A gets pruned in 1000 AD, that doesn't mean the TVA have to do it in any sort of order from their TVA perspective. They could wait a few millennia before getting to that job. Still, Timeline A gets pruned in their 1000 AD from their perspective.
If the TVA get overthrown or stopped in this series though, then they don't get to finish all their jobs. Hence, the diverse multiverse consists of their unfinished work, timelines down the list that they didnt get to prune.
That's why i firmly believe he went back to every timeline backwards (2014->2012-> 1970) and just stayed there not interferring with anything and lived with Peggy. He's loyal to his mission
I dont understand this. The whole "Was supposed to happen" is an out to all of this as I understood it. The TVA and this episode basically says that time travel ITSELF isn't "not allowed", its that time travel that "wasnt supposed to happen" is outlawed. Steve could be a variant, but as long as they say "that was supposed to happen in the master timeline" then Steve exists just fine here. I dont see the conflict.
Why? The idea is seemingly that theres a master timeline pre-written so to speak. If thats always what was "supposed" to happen in the pre-written outcomes then why would it be an issue? This sounds alot more like "Well thats not fair! He did something similar!" but I dont think this system is even pretending to work that way considering its openly limiting free will in many instances. Im not sure that the viewers idea of fair is supposed to matter in this case.
A LOT more fanservice than I was expecting, but multiverse shenanigans is always my guilty pleasure. Love this shit.
The only conflict is that at that point that is exceptionally arbitrary
I mean if you really think about it. It's bullshit/not fair that 3 beings decides what people can and cannot do and if you deviate from that path you're punished and you don't even know why you're being punished. It's kinda like a commentary on religion in a way.
Judge: What the Avengers did was supposed to happen and what you did wasn't (so you're being punished even though you didn't know you were supposed to)
Loki: According to who?
Judge: the Time Lords
Loki: Let me talk to them
Judge: Sorry they're busy and I have to punish you now.
What Steve did was supposed to happen and what Loki did wasn't. It probably comes down to Steve Rogers = good and Loki = bad even though Loki tries to be good near the end of his life and is punished because as Mobius puts it you're there for heroes to vanquish and to make them the best versions of themselves. Time lords probably see it as a hero being rewarded and a villain gets his death.
This was probably the best first episode of the new Marvel shows so far. I appreciate that they took one entire episode to explain everything before the main plot happens in order to save confusion. And I couldn't help but compare that to these last few seasons of Doctor Who where shit isn't explained until either shit happens or is a callback to shit that happened a long time ago.
I absolutely am overcomplicating it lol but I love to discuss this stuff lol.
I agree, but it doesn't seem to break the rules of anything.
That arbitrary nature is also why I think something definitely goes wrong with the TVA considering the name of upcoming MCU movies. I dont think they escape all this cleanly in the end.
Why the mental gymnastics about why the infinity stones weren't working? They already made it clear that powers and magic don't work in the TVA, which the stones would fall under?
I was wondering this myself. Maybe the TVA made a strict deal with Cap or put him into a false timeline?
I thought it was pretty easy to accept why the TVA doesn't worry about The Avengers time-travelling or Steve living in the past. We've seen their visualization of the Sacred Timeline. It's a solid, undulating line that waves around, and importantly, is bracketed by two red lines above and below. I think, pretty clearly, they don't like any variations. But they really care about variations that create branches that go beyond those red boundary lines.
Second, you've got to remember that the TVA seems to be outside of time, so when a variation happens, they must have some sense of how serious that variation will be. It's pretty easy to imagine that, when Steve travels back to live with Peggy, he lives a simple, modest life that causes almost no impact on the major events of which the Sacred Timeline cares about, and things stay relatively stable. Now Loki being free from time? The dude is chaos walking. Of course they want to cut off a Loi variant the moment one comes into existence. Especially since other Loki variants seem to be causing them a significant amount of trouble.
Like, The Time Keepers clearly found one timeline in the multiverse that they prefer over all others. They're going to care about stopping variations to that, and not really care about stopping things that don't impact. Steve growing old with Peggy doesn't fuck things up, so they easily can reconcile that with the timeline. Loki variants, however, are a disaster for their plan.
What's more interesting is why the Time Keepers want this particular timeline. I think maybe they're trying to protect the timeline which eventually brings them into existence and gives them the power over time.
Second, you've got to remember that the TVA seems to be outside of time, so when a variation happens, they must have some sense of how serious that variation will be. It's pretty easy to imagine that, when Steve travels back to live with Peggy, he lives a simple, modest life that causes almost no impact on the major events of which the Sacred Timeline cares about, and things stay relatively stable. Now Loki being free from time? The dude is chaos walking. Of course they want to cut off a Loi variant the moment one comes into existence. Especially since other Loki variants seem to be causing them a significant amount of trouble.
Like, The Time Keepers clearly found one timeline in the multiverse that they prefer over all others. They're going to care about stopping variations to that, and not really care about stopping things that don't impact. Steve growing old with Peggy doesn't fuck things up, so they easily can reconcile that with the timeline. Loki variants, however, are a disaster for their plan.
What's more interesting is why the Time Keepers want this particular timeline. I think maybe they're trying to protect the timeline which eventually brings them into existence and gives them the power over time.
This is such unsatisfying story telling though. Characters taking one random misstep could be zapped away any time just because? While the characters who are actually violating the rules are hand waived with "they were supposed to do it because reasons so it's fine"?
Would explain how Kang ties in, he could be subverting the other time keepers to forward his preferred timeline.
I like this explanation...but I secretly hope its becuse of "evil loki".
Maybe the bad loki found out about their future death somehow and is doing things to prevent it.. including ensuring the 2012 loki steals the Tesseract in endgame which would cause a rift.
The other big question is just...like...why did they even bother arresting Loki? lol
I mean, my understanding is that their litte charges wipe out the timeline anyway. If they portal-ed into that timeline, dropped the charge, and left, this Loki variant would have died anyway. Instead they arrested this Loki variant to execute him, then executed everyone else.
But that's much more of a "there wouldn't be a show if they didn't" question lol
I mean, my understanding is that their litte charges wipe out the timeline anyway. If they portal-ed into that timeline, dropped the charge, and left, this Loki variant would have died anyway. Instead they arrested this Loki variant to execute him, then executed everyone else.
But that's much more of a "there wouldn't be a show if they didn't" question lol
But the Avengers got all of the stones from the past in different universes, and Tony's snap worked in the main timeline. It just seems like whatever dimension the TVA is located in is the only place they are just stones. At least that's all I could gather from one episode.