Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)

[Trup1aya]

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but I guess one thing I would suggest is having a character on the show that was aware of the same things that the audience up to date is as well that would address the rest of the things time traveling involved in Endgame that didn't bleed into Loki. But you've been of the sentiment that Endgame's time travel plot has nothing to do with Loki's so I would think you would find that unnecessary.

Still, I disagree with the rest of your post and I think we should agree to disagree because I really just cannot agree. If pruning a branched timeline means erasing it, then there 100% is a conflict with Steve returning the stones because that means it is impossible for him to return the stones if the timelines where those stones came from are erased. For all I know, the TVA's erasure of the timelines if that's even what pruning the timeline means could be simultaneous to Steve's returning of them the "moment after they were taken," but I'll never see a conclusion to that because the show just didn't address it.

I didn't see Steve's mission actually pan out, nor did I see the effects of an entire universe erased with a time resetter. But from the beginning I never thought that's what the TVA does; I just didn't think about it too much at all. And by the end it is easy to let it all go by subscribing to the idea that it is what Kang wanted.

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I just can't wrap my head around why you think erasure means would be impossible to return the stones. He returned them immediately after they were taken... which is obviously BEFORE the TVA arrived. This obliterates your "conflict" regardless of whichever definition of pruning you subscribe to.

Endgame's plot leads into Loki's plot, but that doesn't mean Loki needs to retread Endgames plot. Steve returning the stones is immaterial to anything that happened in the Loki show. Why didn't "Loki" explain what happened to Gamora? The same reason they didn't talk about Steve returning stones. Because it's immaterial to the story at hand.

The show did have characters who knew about everything that took place after 2012... but those characters only talked about things pertinent to Loki's arc... which naturally doesnt include Steve or the returning of the stones.

The entirety of your argument is "i imagined this cannon-conflicting scenario, and the show didn't explicitly tell me that it didn't happen". But simply accepting the cannon means the thing you dreamt didn't happen.

 

[SP.]

Nah, after all the show is called LOKI. If you're unwilling to spend the time to actually examine his character then maybe don't make a show about him.

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But the show isn't about his character. It's about many Loki's across many timelines.

 

[TyrantII]

This season was absolutely about a redemption hero story: 2012 Loki.

It did it better than the limited screen time the movie had.

I'm not sure what BossAttack is on about, besides being sour on the HHR vs King Loki thing. 🤷‍♂️

 

[The Artisan]

I just can't wrap my head around why you think erasure means would be impossible to return the stones. He returned them immediately after they were taken... which is obviously BEFORE the TVA arrived. This obliterates your "conflict" regardless of whichever definition of pruning you subscribe to.

Endgame's plot leads into Loki's plot, but that doesn't mean Loki needs to retread Endgames plot. Steve returning the stones is immaterial to anything that happened in the Loki show. Why didn't "Loki" explain what happened to Gamora? The same reason they didn't talk about Steve returning stones. Because it's immaterial to the story at hand.

The show did have characters who knew about everything that took place after 2012... but those characters only talked about things pertinent to Loki's arc... which naturally doesnt include Steve or the returning of the stones.

The entirety of your argument is "i imagined this cannon-conflicting scenario, and the show didn't explicitly tell me that it didn't happen". But simply accepting the cannon means the thing you dreamt didn't happen.

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I disagree that Loki's plot doesn't need to retread Endgame's plot. If you cannot wrap your head around why I think erasure would be impossible to return the stones then maybe we should just agree to disagree like I suggested. I've explained it already and my explanation wouldn't change from anything you and I discussed because I don't find it obvious that it was before the TVA arrived and as far as I'm concerned my conflict isn't "obliterated," it still stands. What the TVA accuses Loki of applies to other characters in Endgame (not the Avengers) but those threads are never followed up on except if it is all written off as something Kang wanted to happen.

 

[Trup1aya]

I disagree that Loki's plot doesn't need to retread Endgame's plot. If you cannot wrap your head around why I think erasure would be impossible to return the stones then maybe we should just agree to disagree like I suggested. I've explained it already and my explanation wouldn't change from anything you and I discussed because I don't find it obvious that it was before the TVA arrived and as far as I'm concerned my conflict isn't "obliterated," it still stands. What the TVA accuses Loki of applies to other characters in Endgame (not the Avengers) but those threads are never followed up on except if it is all written off as something Kang wanted to happen.

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I'm sorry man. You're imagined scenario where there is a conflict just doesn't make any sense.

The stones were taken midday in New York. The stones were returned, moments later, midday in New York. The TVA arrived midday IN MONGOLIA, which is on the complete opposite side of the planet.

therefore, there was about a half day between the stones being returned and the TVA arriving and pruning the timeline.

Simply knowing that Steve returned the stones should be all the proof you need that the TVA didn't prune before Steve completed his mission.

But if that isn't enough, Loki gives you enough to figure that out for yourself. A show shouldn't have to retread on lore from other shows. That's not good story telling. That's fluff.

No, you have not explained how the TVA erasing the timeline would have prevented Steve from returning them. All you have done is present scenarios as "conflicts" despite us knowing, objectively, that the cannon explicitly prevents these scenarios.

If you aren't convinced that your conflict hasn't been obliterated, then I'm afraid writing really isn't the issue here.

 

[SP.]

I'm sorry man. You're imagined scenario where there is a conflict just doesn't make any sense.

The stones were taken midday in New York. The stones were returned, moments later, midday in New York. The TVA arrived midday IN MONGOLIA, which is on the complete opposite side of the planet.

therefore, there was about a half day between the stones being returned and the TVA arriving and pruning the timeline.

Simply knowing that Steve returned the stones should be all the proof you need that the TVA didn't prune before Steve completed his mission.

But if that isn't enough, Loki gives you enough to figure that out for yourself. A show shouldn't have to retread on lore from other shows. That's not good story telling. That's fluff.

No, you have not explained how the TVA erasing the timeline would have prevented Steve from returning them. All you have done is present scenarios as "conflicts" despite us knowing, objectively, that the cannon explicitly prevents these scenarios.

If you aren't convinced that your conflict hasn't been obliterated, then I'm afraid writing really isn't the issue here.

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This is my exact understanding as well. Seemed pretty straightforward.

 

[The Artisan]

I'm sorry man. You're imagined scenario where there is a conflict just doesn't make any sense.

The stones were taken midday in New York. The stones were returned, moments later, midday in New York. The TVA arrived midday IN MONGOLIA, which is on the complete opposite side of the planet.

therefore, there was about a half day between the stones being returned and the TVA arriving and pruning the timeline.

Simply knowing that Steve returned the stones should be all the proof you need that the TVA didn't prune before Steve completed his mission.

But if that isn't enough, Loki gives you enough to figure that out for yourself. A show shouldn't have to retread on lore from other shows. That's not good story telling. That's fluff.

No, you have not explained how the TVA erasing the timeline would have prevented Steve from returning them. All you have done is present scenarios as "conflicts" despite us knowing, objectively, that the cannon explicitly prevents these scenarios.

If you aren't convinced that your conflict hasn't been obliterated, then I'm afraid writing really isn't the issue here.

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The TVA arrived midday and set a timer to either erase the timeline or erase what Loki did in Mongolia. If it is the former, then there is no timeline for Steve to return to. It is convenient to believe that he returned to the correct moment to return the stone but if the point of the the timer is to erase the timeline entirely then I believe that happens instantaneously so effectively once it is activated then it is like that branch never existed. That makes it a problem with Steve's mission in Endgame.

If your intention was to help me understand what the show was trying to portray then I appreciate you trying. But for me, the show just doesn't work.

 

[Trup1aya]

The TVA arrived midday and set a timer to either erase the timeline or erase what Loki did in Mongolia. If it is the former, then there is no timeline for Steve to return to. It is convenient to believe that he returned to the correct moment to return the stone but if the point of the the timer is to erase the timeline entirely then I believe that happens instantaneously so effectively once it is activated then it is like that branch never existed. That makes it a problem with Steve's mission in Endgame.

If your intention was to help me understand what the show was trying to portray then I appreciate you trying. But for me, the show just doesn't work.

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My friend….

the TVA arrived well AFTER Steve would have returned the stones. So them placing a timer in Mongolia has no impact on Steve completing his mission, because Steve's mission was already complete. I don't know how else to explain this, but the "conflict" you are suggesting is an impossibility.

 

[The Artisan]

My friend….

the TVA arrived well AFTER Steve would have returned the stones. So them placing a timer in Mongolia has no impact on Steve completing his mission, because Steve's mission was already complete. I don't know how else to explain this, but the "conflict" you are suggesting is an impossibility.

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if the TVA's time resetter means erasing the timeline from existence then I don't think it matters when Steve would decide to return the 2012 stones as erasing the timeline could mean erasing it instantaneously, meaning making it so that it never even existed in the first place. That would make Steve visiting it an impossibility.

 

[BossAttack]

But the show isn't about his character. It's about many Loki's across many timelines.

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Ah, my mistake. I thought the show was about the lead character who we followed across every episode. Carry on.

 

[Trup1aya]

if the TVA's time resetter means erasing the timeline from existence then I don't think it matters when Steve would decide to return the 2012 stones as erasing the timeline could mean erasing it instantaneously, meaning making it so that it never even existed in the first place. That would make Steve visiting it an impossibility.

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if that's your understanding then, the entirety of endgame can't have happened. Not only could Steve not have returned the stones, but they couldn't have been taken in the first place because the timeline never existed… which means the avengers never travelled to it.

But that's not how any of this was explained. The "erasure theory" doesn't mean that pruned timelines never existed. It means they cease to exist.

the Avengers took the stones. Then Steve returned the stones right afterwards. Then the TVA showed up, and made the timeline ceased to exist.

 

[The Artisan]

if that's your understanding then, the entirety of endgame can't have happened. Not only could Steve not have returned the stones, but they couldn't have been taken in the first place because the timeline never existed… which means the avengers never travelled to it.

But that's not how any of this was explained. The "erasure theory" doesn't mean that pruned timelines never existed. It means they cease to exist.

the Avengers took the stones. Then Steve returned the stones right afterwards. Then the TVA showed up, and made the timeline ceased to exist.

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Fair enough. Steve does need to be in two places at once in the 2012 branch though. So regardless of the timing being right, I still think seeing this all play out with the TVA's involvement would have helped with the show's storytelling. I still think it is wrong to say Loki shouldn't have retread the grounds of what was covered in Endgame.

 

[RadzPrower]

if that's your understanding then, the entirety of endgame can't have happened. Not only could Steve not have returned the stones, but they couldn't have been taken in the first place because the timeline never existed… which means the avengers never travelled to it.

But that's not how any of this was explained. The "erasure theory" doesn't mean that pruned timelines never existed. It means they cease to exist.

the Avengers took the stones. Then Steve returned the stones right afterwards. Then the TVA showed up, and made the timeline ceased to exist.

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My friend, I'd stop wasting my time on this discussion. I and Artisan argued for pages a few weeks ago and they just straight want things spoon-fed to them and aren't willing to make the simple, obvious logical leaps needed to fill in the gaps without showing it.

 

[Trup1aya]

Fair enough. Steve does need to be in two places at once in the 2012 branch though. So regardless of the timing being right, I still think seeing this all play out with the TVA's involvement would have helped with the show's storytelling. I still think it is wrong to say Loki shouldn't have retread the grounds of what was covered in Endgame.

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I disagree that Steve needed to be two places at once. He has a device that allows him to traverse space and time in an instant. And he has half a day to get the 2012 stones dropped off before the TVA shows up.

I also disagree that there needed to be exposition devoted to Steve's journey in Loki. The task of returning the stones has nothing do with Loki's arc in any capacity. It would be jarringly out of place. There's no reason for any character in this story to care about Steve's journey, so there's no reason to bring it up.

I do take issue with how some of the time mechanics were explained in the story. I've talked about it in this thread- much of the confusion in the audience was well earned by how there wasn't any consistency with how the words timeline and reality were used in relation to each other- using them interchangeably really made for a lack of clarity.

My friend, I'd stop wasting my time on this discussion. I and Artisan argued for pages a few weeks ago and they just straight want things spoon-fed to them and aren't willing to make the simple, obvious logical leaps needed to fill in the gaps without showing it.

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you're probably right

 

[Charliebear]

No.

The branch already exists... branches existing isn't inherently problematic. TVA gets involved when a branch is straying too far away from its intended path. Causing the branch to cease to exist is a mass causality event. That's why the the dialog refers to it as "annihilation" of "entire realities"

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You can anhilate a future reality without actually anhilating the people.

 

[The Artisan]

My friend, I'd stop wasting my time on this discussion. I and Artisan argued for pages a few weeks ago and they just straight want things spoon-fed to them and aren't willing to make the simple, obvious logical leaps needed to fill in the gaps without showing it.

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I'll speak for myself. You don't need to make it sound like I am the only person in this thread who takes issue with this show at all. Every time I come by this thread, I still see similar arguments coming by and people discussing some of the same things that were supposed to have been established by the first or second episode. If you have something to say, you could find a nicer way of saying it.

I disagree that Steve needed to be two places at once. He has a device that allows him to traverse space and time in an instant. And he has half a day to get the 2012 stones dropped off before the TVA shows up.

I also disagree that there needed to be exposition devoted to Steve's journey in Loki. The task of returning the stones has nothing do with Loki's arc in any capacity. It would be jarringly out of place. There's no reason for any character in this story to care about Steve's journey, so there's no reason to bring it up.

I do take issue with how some of the time mechanics were explained in the story. I've talked about it in this thread- much of the confusion in the audience was well earned by how there wasn't any consistency with how the words timeline and reality were used in relation to each other- using them interchangeably really made for a lack of clarity.



you're probably right

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Then let's just agree to disagree, as I have been suggesting. Throughout the heist that took place in Endgame, we never saw the Avengers traverse two places at the same time, the time being the same year. I wouldn't care about the task of returning the stones if this show didn't introduce the concept of resetting the timeline and having that mean erasing the timeline - I still don't think that is what it's supposed to mean, but if that is what it means, seeing it play out with another relevant plot point that involves the 2012 branched timeline would have been important. If anything I would say the show's handling of the TVA is what is jarringly out of place.

 

[RadzPrower]

I'll speak for myself.

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Wasn't speaking for you. I was speaking for myself and trying to save someone else some time.

 

[The Artisan]

Wasn't speaking for you. I was speaking for myself and trying to save someone else some time.

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What you said to another person was about me, and about me asking to be spoon fed which was not the case now or then.

 

[RadzPrower]

What you said to another person was about me, and about me asking to be spoon fed which was not the case now or then.

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Again, still not "speaking for you". I'm speaking ABOUT you as I see it.

 

[The Artisan]

Again, still not "speaking for you". I'm speaking ABOUT you as I see it.

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Then as I said to you before, you could have found a nicer way to speak about me. You don't see how your choice words could come off as bothersome to someone else?

 

[RadzPrower]

Then as I said to you before, you could have found a nicer way to speak about me. You don't see how your choice words could come off as bothersome to someone else?

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Originally...weeks ago...I'm pretty sure I generalized an audience that prefers spoon-fed content. Yes, it was in response to a comment you made, but it wasn't specifically about you at the time. You self-associated with it and latched onto it, so it stuck for me too.

Also, I fail to see how "spoon-fed" is some sort of terrible thing to say about an audience. It's not like I said anyone was stupid or ignorant...just that they have a preferred delivery method. It's like binge-watchers vs. those that prefer weekly releases. You prefer things to be hyper-detailed and explained out without question while I prefer a narrative that's a tad bit quicker and more focused where the viewer/reader can fill in the small, non-critical details based on context and/or history.

If you don't like the way Loki tells its story, that doesn't make it "bad" or "wrong" by default. It certainly could be either of those things, but your opinion alone does not make it so. It's just not delivered how YOU want it to be and I think that's a larger problem across multiple fandoms and audiences...that if something doesn't cater to me, it's some sort of slight against me rather than the notion that it's simply not FOR me. Just turn something off and don't watch it if it bugs you that badly...you're not being forced to watch it.

 

[Trup1aya]

You can anhilate a future reality without actually anhilating the people.

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I think it's fine to interpret it that way, but I'm pretty certain that's not what's happening.

Renslayer tells us that timelines aren't actually reset, but are instead transferred to the void. Sylvie tells us that her entire timeline was erased and that she was orphaned. The implication is that people are killed by the actions

I'll speak for myself. You don't need to make it sound like I am the only person in this thread who takes issue with this show at all. Every time I come by this thread, I still see similar arguments coming by and people discussing some of the same things that were supposed to have been established by the first or second episode. If you have something to say, you could find a nicer way of saying it.

Then let's just agree to disagree, as I have been suggesting. Throughout the heist that took place in Endgame, we never saw the Avengers traverse two places at the same time, the time being the same year. I wouldn't care about the task of returning the stones if this show didn't introduce the concept of resetting the timeline and having that mean erasing the timeline - I still don't think that is what it's supposed to mean, but if that is what it means, seeing it play out with another relevant plot point that involves the 2012 branched timeline would have been important. If anything I would say the show's handling of the TVA is what is jarringly out of place.

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I don't get what you're saying here.

we've already established why the TVA erasing the timeline doesn't conflict with Steve returning the stones- because tva shows up after Steve is done.

Now are you saying you don't understand how Steve could return two stones to the same year, within the rules established in endgame?

Steve doesn't have to be in Two places at once. He just has to return two items before they are needed in within their reality. He had plenty of time to return one after the other… and he had a device that allows him to travel anywhere in space and time instantly.

 

[The Artisan]

Originally...weeks ago...I'm pretty sure I generalized an audience that prefers spoon-fed content. Yes, it was in response to a comment you made, but it wasn't specifically about you at the time. You self-associated with it and latched onto it, so it stuck for me too.

Also, I fail to see how "spoon-fed" is some sort of terrible thing to say about an audience. It's not like I said anyone was stupid or ignorant...just that they have a preferred delivery method. It's like binge-watchers vs. those that prefer weekly releases. You prefer things to be hyper-detailed and explained out without question while I prefer a narrative that's a tad bit quicker and more focused where the viewer/reader can fill in the small, non-critical details based on context and/or history.

If you don't like the way Loki tells its story, that doesn't make it "bad" or "wrong" by default. It certainly could be either of those things, but your opinion alone does not make it so. It's just not delivered how YOU want it to be and I think that's a larger problem across multiple fandoms and audiences...that if something doesn't cater to me, it's some sort of slight against me rather than the notion that it's simply not FOR me. Just turn something off and don't watch it if it bugs you that badly...you're not being forced to watch it.

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What I meant to say is that I sensed a general hostility just from expressing my thoughts here, thoughts that were often times negative. It seems like if I have something to say that goes against the norm, the feeling is whatever I have to say is not welcome here. Hell I cannot even attempt a friendly without later being accused of trolling. It's really annoying.

I have my reasons for watching the show. After episode 3, because I wasn't even enjoying it anymore I was just watching to see how it would connect to the bigger picture.

I think it's fine to interpret it that way, but I'm pretty certain that's not what's happening.

Renslayer tells us that timelines aren't reset, but are instead transferred to the void.


I don't get what you're saying here.

we've already established why the TVA erasing the timeline doesn't conflict with Steve returning the stones- because tva shows up after Steve is done.

Now are you saying you don't understand how Steve could return two stones to the same year, within the rules established in endgame?

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For Steve's mission and how it relates to the return to the 2012 timeline: He has more than one stone to return, so his mission there will be a little longer than his visit to the the rest of the branches. Without having seen him successfully returning the stones if the TVA resetting the timeline means erasing the timeline (I still don't believe that's what it is), I don't think we have established that there isn't a conflict with Steve's mission.

If erasing an entire timeline means essentially killing everyone there, then that's a really big deal - and I don't remember the show explicitly delineating an entire timeline getting pruned and showing up to the void or the effects of it with people reacting. It would have to be a scene similar to Wanda undoing the Hex and saying goodbye to her sons and Vision.

 

[RadzPrower]

Hell I cannot even attempt a friendly without later being accused of trolling. It's really annoying.

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You were accused of trolling because you refused to accept things that were clearly pointed out to you repeatedly and by multiple users...and again now.

 

[TyrantII]

Resetting a timeline doesn't mean the Avengers entire timeline is wiped out. It means the timeline from the point of it branching is.

I think that's where the confusion lies with Artisan.

The TVA dumped everything from Mongolia to the 2012 NYC events that happened in the Stark tower lobby: the "Nexus event". Not the entire original timeline Steve and Stark then travel further back in, and that Steve returns stones to.

They cut off branches, they don't cut down trees, mostly.

 

[Trup1aya]

What I meant to say is that I sensed a general hostility just from expressing my thoughts here, thoughts that were often times negative. It seems like if I have something to say that goes against the norm, the feeling is whatever I have to say is not welcome here. Hell I cannot even attempt a friendly without later being accused of trolling. It's really annoying.

I have my reasons for watching the show. After episode 3, because I wasn't even enjoying it anymore I was just watching to see how it would connect to the bigger picture.

For Steve's mission and how it relates to the return to the 2012 timeline: He has more than one stone to return, so his mission there will be a little longer than his visit to the the rest of the branches. Without having seen him successfully returning the stones if the TVA resetting the timeline means erasing the timeline (I still don't believe that's what it is), I don't think we have established that there isn't a conflict with Steve's mission.

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Steve has a device that allows him to travel through space and time instantly. He had half a day before the TVA showed up. If it takes 10 seconds to return one stone, then returning 2 would take 20 seconds.

If erasing an entire timeline means essentially killing everyone there, then that's a really big deal - and I don't remember the show explicitly delineating an entire timeline getting pruned and showing up to the void or the effects of it with people reacting. It would have to be a scene similar to Wanda undoing the Hex and saying goodbye to her sons and Vision.

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it is a big deal. It's what makes Kangs methods so insidious. It's also why Silvie is also considered a villain and a hypocrite….because she dropped a bunch of reset charges herself. That it's all treated like no big deal by these characters shows how massive the multiverse is when a character playing God can consider an entire reality a tiny consequence in the grand scheme of things

how would You depict an entire reality arriving on set? I think we saw the "budget" depiction. The characters say entire realities are sent to the void and are devoured "instantly" -Which handwaves the need to try to depict an entire reality…

 

[BossAttack]

I think these rationalizations about pruning and time travel are dumb since the series itself never actually cared to intricately explain these details and never will because they don't mater.

 

[RadzPrower]

Loki Writer Clears Up Confusion About the Sacred Timeline After Finale

Loki head writer Michael Waldron tried to clear up some confusion when it comes to the Sacred TImeline after the show’s finale.

thedirect.com

From the writer's mouth. The Sacred Timeline is not necessarily a straight line and would look more like an intertwined rope with strands and fluctuations and spikes.

The Sacred Timeline is NOT a single timeline.

 

[Blader]

Loki Writer Clears Up Confusion About the Sacred Timeline After Finale

Loki head writer Michael Waldron tried to clear up some confusion when it comes to the Sacred TImeline after the show’s finale.

thedirect.com

From the writer's mouth. The Sacred Timeline is not necessarily a straight line and would look more like an intertwined rope with strands and fluctuations and spikes.

The Sacred Timeline is NOT a single timeline.

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Yep. I'd been pushing back on that idea and was in the Sacred Timeline = single timeline camp. But fair play to you guys, I was wrong! Nice to see it clarified.

 

[The Artisan]

You were accused of trolling because you refused to accept things that were clearly pointed out to you repeatedly and by multiple users...and again now.

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Yes again now I'm still refusing to accept things that were pointed out because I disagreed with what was pointed out to me At the time I said going by the TVA's logic, 2014 Thanos should have been accused of being a variant for deviating from the events of the sacred timeline, just like Loki. Your response to that was the courtroom scene with Ravonna explaining that the Avengers did what they were supposed to and linking a YouTube video to it.

My response then is the same as now: Ravonna said the Avengers did what they were supposed to do. She didn't say Thanos in the branched 2014 timeline did what he was suppose to do, nor did she address the 1970 branch that wasn't supposed to happen by her logic if the Avengers weren't supposed to fail in 2012. None of that is brought up in the courtroom scene and none of that is addressed in that episode. That courtroom scene had to do only with Loki defending himself and blaming the Avengers.

So I'm still standing by that point, and I stand by my reasoning that it is still isn't an excuse to be overtly unfriendly to someone in this thread who isn't accepting an answer from another person. I can certainly understand why other posters would be discouraged from expressing their thoughts too.

Steve has a device that allows him to travel through space and time instantly. He had half a day before the TVA showed up. If it takes 10 seconds to return one stone, then returning 2 would take 20 seconds.

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I understand, what I am saying is that we never see a user activate the Stark time/space GPS to work in more than one place at the same time. We only see them activate it to in different places in time as a singular step before their next step. Throughout Endgame we never see them use it to go to two different moments in time that are relatively close to one another, only years apart. Not even 10-20 seconds.

it is a big deal. It's what makes Kangs methods so insidious. It's also why Silvie is also considered a villain and a hypocrite….because she dropped a bunch of reset charges herself. That it's all treated like no big deal by these characters shows how massive the multiverse is when a character playing God can consider an entire reality a tiny consequence in the grand scheme of things

how would You depict an entire reality arriving on set? I think we saw the "budget" depiction. The characters say entire realities are sent to the void and are devoured "instantly" -Which handwaves the need to try to depict an entire reality…

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I wasn't asking for a depiction of an entire reality arriving on set, I was asking for the opposite; depicting an entire reality being erased from existence (kind of like Wanda undoing the Hex) and then showing the horror on the faces of the residents in that reality who would become nothingness within moments.

 

[RadzPrower]

So I'm still standing by that point, and I stand by my reasoning that it is still isn't an excuse to be overtly unfriendly to someone in this thread who isn't accepting an answer from another person. I can certainly understand why other posters would be discouraged from expressing their thoughts too.

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Are you now going to not accept the writer's own words as well? They've essentially confirmed everything we've been saying this whole time.

 

[The Artisan]

Are you now going to not accept the writer's own words as well? They've essentially confirmed everything we've been saying this whole time.

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I've already gone with the idea that everything that happened is everything that He Who Remains wanted. As for the link you posted, the writer says "The TVA has their own barometer, their own gauge of what constitutes a deviation from the baseline, the way it's supposed to go." And since we know that HWR is basically the ruler of the TVA, this explanation is enough to brush over the questions that I had.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

people getting way too personal about disagreements in deciphering comic book mumbo jumbo

personally i don't know why we should take any of the TVA's words at face value. artisan is exactly right that the TVA was driven by Richards' plans to avoid any timeline resulting in a Kang the Conqueror appearing. they were obviously lying to Loki and to their own agents.

 

[Choppasmith]

Came across this on Twitter and damn I want it now

 

[Trup1aya]

Yes again now I'm still refusing to accept things that were pointed out because I disagreed with what was pointed out to me At the time I said going by the TVA's logic, 2014 Thanos should have been accused of being a variant for deviating from the events of the sacred timeline, just like Loki. Your response to that was the courtroom scene with Ravonna explaining that the Avengers did what they were supposed to and linking a YouTube video to it.

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The TVAs logic doesn't suggest 2014 Thanos would be a variant. If HWR intended for a branch reality to produce a Thanos who jumps to 2023 to fight and lose to Avengers- then Thanos actions would be exactly in line with the "sacred timeline."

My response then is the same as now: Ravonna said the Avengers did what they were supposed to do. She didn't say Thanos in the branched 2014 timeline did what he was suppose to do, nor did she address the 1970 branch that wasn't supposed to happen by her logic if the Avengers weren't supposed to fail in 2012. None of that is brought up in the courtroom scene and none of that is addressed in that episode. That courtroom scene had to do only with Loki defending himself and blaming the Avengers.

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None of the Avengers got pruned by the TVA, this means that their actions, including the creation of Branch timelines was expected by HWR.

We don't need to be explicitly spoonfed every detail.

I understand, what I am saying is that we never see a user activate the Stark time/space GPS to work in more than one place at the same time. We only see them activate it to in different places in time as a singular step before their next step. Throughout Endgame we never see them use it to go to two different moments in time that are relatively close to one another, only years apart. Not even 10-20 seconds.

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Again, we don't need to be spoon fed every detail. He has a device capable of sending him light-years a way, anywhere in time, in an instant, but you don't think it could send him a few blocks away?

Hell, even if for some reason his machine couldn't travel into the immediate future of the timeline he's in (which we should assume it can- Scott Lang did this), he could drop one stone off in 2012, go return the other stones to the other timelines, then return to 2012 to drop the second stone.

Or he could just drop one stone off, then physically travel to the second location to drop the second stone off.

We know that Steve had the tools to complete his mission. He had plenty of options. And its implied that he completed his mission.

And nothing presented in Loki would have impacted his ability to complete his mission. And his mission had no impact on anything presented in Loki. so naturally, the Loki story didn't mention it.

I wasn't asking for a depiction of an entire reality arriving on set, I was asking for the opposite; depicting an entire reality being erased from existence (kind of like Wanda undoing the Hex) and then showing the horror on the faces of the residents in that reality who would become nothingness within moments.

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What if there's nothing to depict? What if they are just "there one moment, gone the next"? What you're describing could have been a cool effect, but I understand why the decision would be to focus on the perspective of the "annihilators" to whom realities are just limbs on a tree.

 

[The Artisan]

The TVAs logic doesn't suggest 2014 Thanos would be a variant. If HWR intended for a branch reality to produce a Thanos who jumps to 2023 to fight and lose to Avengers- then Thanos actions would be exactly in line with the "sacred timeline."

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We don't learn about HWR in the first episode and yes the TVA's logic does suggest 2014 Thanos would be a variant, because his actions deviate from the actions of the sacred timeline - as we knew it in the first episode. Loki escaping with the tesseract wasn't supposed to happen and later that episode he sees what was supposed to happen; the events unfolding of the MCU with Thanos killing him. Going by this logic, 2014 Thanos shouldn't have decided to time travel to 2023 after seeing a vision of the future. New Rockstars did a video about that makes sense; it's just what the TVA (and later HWR) wanted.

None of the Avengers got pruned by the TVA, this means that their actions, including the creation of Branch timelines was expected by HWR.

We don't need to be explicitly spoonfed every detail.

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Exactly. None of the Avengers got pruned or arrested, nor did I say they should have. Ravonna said the Avengers did what they were supposed to do, so my problem here isn't about them. We don't need to be spoon fed every detail but if the show is going to open up this can of worms then they have a responsibility to explain; if the Avengers weren't supposed to fail in 2012, then they weren't supposed to time travel to 1970.

Again, we don't need to be spoon fed every detail. He has a device capable of sending him light-years a way, anywhere in time, in an instant, but you don't think it could send him a few blocks away?

Hell, even if for some reason his machine couldn't travel into the immediate future of the timeline he's in (which we should assume it can- Scott Lang did this), he could drop one stone off in 2012, go return the other stones to the other timelines, then return to 2012 to drop the second stone.

Or he could just drop one stone off, then physically travel to the second location to drop the second stone off.

We know that Steve had the tools to complete his mission. He had plenty of options. And its implied that he completed his mission.

And nothing presented in Loki would have impacted his ability to complete his mission. And his mission had no impact on anything presented in Loki. so naturally, the Loki story didn't mention it.

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I disagree that nothing presented in Loki would have impacted Steve's ability to complete his mission - if pruning a timeline means erasing it from existence. I strongly suggest you agree to disagree with me otherwise we may never reach a conclusion in this discussion. I've suggested this respectfully about two or three times now. To you and to others what I'm asking for is to be "spoon fed" to me it is like asking to forget about these open plot holes.

What if there's nothing to depict? What if they are just "there one moment, gone the next"? What you're describing could have been a cool effect, but I understand why the decision would be to focus on the perspective of the "annihilators" to whom realities are just limbs on a tree.

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"What if" there is nothing to depict? We see the effects of the time resetter device and you said what the TVA does is incredibly insidious. Seeing the horror and fear on the faces of the universe that is becoming undone would have been a serious example of how the TVA is ultimately evil.

 

[Alucrid]

isn't this just the same shit being argued that was argued weeks ago?

 

[RadzPrower]

if the Avengers weren't supposed to fail in 2012, then they weren't supposed to time travel to 1970.

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See, that's the kicker. They WERE supposed to fail. If they didn't fail, Loki wouldn't have been caught and the whole events of Loki would not have happened and that was arguably more important to HWR than the events of Endgame as it lead directly to himself.

...to me it is like asking to forget about these open plot holes.

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I'll admit that this is not going to necessarily be a satisfying answer to a lot of people, but the writer's response of the Sacred Timeline being multiple timelines essentially says plot holes don't matter because whatever is necessary for events to unfold as we've seen them is allowed, permissible, and necessary. It's a narrative loophole that certainly makes things excessively easy, but it's also a good route to take with an evolving narrative like a comic book or the MCU. It leaves you the necessary wiggle room to not be entirely constrained to a strict lore.

isn't this just the same shit being argued that was argued weeks ago?

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Yes, though at least we have writer confirmation of multiple timelines within the sacred timeline.

 

[Trup1aya]

We don't learn about HWR in the first episode and yes the TVA's logic does suggest 2014 Thanos would be a variant, because his actions deviate from the actions of the sacred timeline - as we knew it in the first episode. Loki escaping with the tesseract wasn't supposed to happen and later that episode he sees what was supposed to happen; the events unfolding of the MCU with Thanos killing him. Going by this logic, 2014 Thanos shouldn't have decided to time travel to 2023 after seeing a vision of the future. New Rockstars did a video about that makes sense; it's just what the TVA (and later HWR) wanted.

Exactly. None of the Avengers got pruned or arrested, nor did I say they should have. Ravonna said the Avengers did what they were supposed to do, so my problem here isn't about them. We don't need to be spoon fed every detail but if the show is going to open up this can of worms then they have a responsibility to explain; if the Avengers weren't supposed to fail in 2012, then they weren't supposed to time travel to 1970.


I disagree that nothing presented in Loki would have impacted Steve's ability to complete his mission - if pruning a timeline means erasing it from existence. I strongly suggest you agree to disagree with me otherwise we may never reach a conclusion in this discussion. I've suggested this respectfully about two or three times now. To you and to others what I'm asking for is to be "spoon fed" to me it is like asking to forget about these open plot holes.


"What if" there is nothing to depict? We see the effects of the time resetter device and you said what the TVA does is incredibly insidious. Seeing the horror and fear on the faces of the universe that is becoming undone would have been a serious example of how the TVA is ultimately evil.

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I think the key component that you are missing is that the TVA was also victim of HWR's ruse. The"sacred timeline" isn't just a single string of events that occur in a single reality from which any variation is pruned. It's every event, in every reality that HWR needs to happen in order to prevent alternate Kang's from existing.

Thanos leaving the 2014 branch WAS supposed to happen. It directly lead to Tony sacrificing himself after Hulk's snap… and this is the exact future that Strange foresaw.

i guess as far as erasure go, we've already talked about how erasing a branch doesn't mean it never existed - it means it ceased to exist. It seemed to me that you accepted this point previously. As Renslayer describes it, pruned realities are not reset, they are transferred to a place where time stops.

The story explicitly shows us that the TVA arrived at least half a day after Steve would have already returned the stones. The only way your "conflict" is a thing is if you completely change what it means erase a timeline and assume the reset charges undo or revert a timelines history, which Renslayer explicitly debunked

These are not plot holes. This are just concepts that you don't fully grasp or a refusal to accept information implicitly and explicitly provided as official cannon.

There's no doubt at all the HWR and his TVA construct is an ultimate evil. The scope HWRs control is unthinkable, and presenting his work as "just another day at the office" while appearing indifferent to the underlying toll is an effective way of depicting that evil.

 

[The Artisan]

See, that's the kicker. They WERE supposed to fail. If they didn't fail, Loki wouldn't have been caught and the whole events of Loki would not have happened and that was arguably more important to HWR than the events of Endgame as it lead directly to himself.

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Right. By the time we meet HWR it is easy to write off everything not making sense as "it's what Kang wanted." Up until now, what I have been trying to tell you is that this wasn't answered in the premier episode with the court scene. That court scene was just about Loki's arrest and explaining why the Avengers aren't accused of being variants.

This post from BossAttack among others pretty much sums it up:

Of course, you could go with the explanation that Kang engineered everything because he needed those two Lokis. So, he had the TVA engage in bureaucratic nonsense by capturing people and putting them on trial, which is totally unnecessary, when a reset charge is all that is needed. He does this because he eventually needs Sylvie to get captured, escape, and go through her entire life experiences. And then he needs Loki to be captured and go through all his experiences so that they are both able to eventually make their way to him and make the ultimate choice.

So, all "contradictions" are really just planned by Kang to get the two Lokis where they are at the end, including the existence of other variant Lokis.

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I'll admit that this is not going to necessarily be a satisfying answer to a lot of people, but the writer's response of the Sacred Timeline being multiple timelines essentially says plot holes don't matter because whatever is necessary for events to unfold as we've seen them is allowed, permissible, and necessary. It's a narrative loophole that certainly makes things excessively easy, but it's also a good route to take with an evolving narrative like a comic book or the MCU. It leaves you the necessary wiggle room to not be entirely constrained to a strict lore.

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Right. It's what the writers wanted and needed to happen not only to conclude this season of the show but to progress Phase 4. This is the most liberty any MCU property as ever taken with rule setting and world building without tying up loose ends, that is why I have had such a problem with it.

I think the key component that you are missing is that the "sacred timeline" isn't just a string of events that occur in a single reality. It's every event, in every reality that HWR needs to happen in order to prevent alternate Kang's from existing.

Thanos leaving the 2014 branch WAS supposed to happen. It directly lead to Tony sacrificing himself after Hulk's snap… and this is the exact future that strange foresaw.

i guess as far as erasure go, we've already talked about how erasing a branch doesn't mean it never existed - it means it ceased to exist. It seemed to me that you accepted this point previously. As Renslayer describes it, pruned realities are not reset, they are transferred to a place where time stops.

The story explicitly shows us that the TVA arrived at least half a day after Steve would have already returned the stones. The only way your "conflict" is a thing is if you completely change what it means erase a timeline and assume the reset charges undo history which is again, head cannon territory.

These are not plot holes. This are just concepts that you don't fully grasp or a refusal to accept information implicitly and explicitly provided by as official cannon.

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You keep mentioning Kang here and I have to keep reminding you that we don't fully realize his involvement until the end of the show, 5 episodes later. The point I have been trying to get across is that the plot holes (yes to me they are plot holes) are never fully answered and can be brushed away by saying everything happened the way it did because it is how Kang wanted it to happen. This includes the knowledge of the sacred timeline including multiple timelines; I think this was already confirmed with episode 5 when we saw Loki variants that didn't look like each other.

But Thanos leaving the 2014 branch is different from the original events of the MCU. It is the reason why Loki was arrested in the first episode of this show. This is the logic presented by the TVA and we don't know about Kang until the end.

I did concede to you that erasing a timeline instantaneously to make it so it never existed doesn't make sense. I will agree with you there. We also agree that what the TVA has been doing is evil. My argument there is that to show a serious example to the audience just how horrific the erasure of a timeline is, showing what happens to the residents of the a pruned universe in motion would have given the full effect and nature of the TVA - and what they do.

As far as I can tell the story doesn't show the TVA arriving half a day after Steve would have already returned the stones. That's still something we should agree to disagree on. With respect I don't see this going anywhere.

 

[RadzPrower]

Right. By the time we meet HWR it is easy to write off everything not making sense as "it's what Kang wanted." Up until now, what I have been trying to tell you is that this wasn't answered in the premier episode with the court scene. That court scene was just about Loki's arrest and explaining why the Avengers aren't accused of being variants.

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Was the court scene definitive? No.
Did it hint at a larger concept? Definitely.

Was Kang the one pulling the scenes spelled out in the first episode? No.
Was somebody clearly pulling the strings in the first episode, even if it was just the TVA and Time Keepers? Definitely.

The problem is that the entire conceit of the show is that it's time travel and a mystery rather than an action narrative. This means a non-linear narrative where a large part of the show is finding things out at the climax rather than handing out all the answers from the jump in order to maintain suspense and curiosity.

The court scene, while not definitive, heavily implied that some time travel was okay and that somebody was pulling the strings and was very selective in what was deemed okay or not. It's not explicitly told you in the moment, but it's heavily implied and later confirmed. No, maybe not everyone connects those dots ahead of time, but you cannot fault a narrative for not giving away all the reveals up front. Spelling it out in episode 1 would've killed all the suspense and discussion for the following episodes.

You keep responding to things as if it's a debate about lore or the story itself, but what I'm getting from reading between the lines is just that you didn't like the story STYLE more than anything. You nitpick and dispute narrative context clues because you don't like the way the story was presented rather than because of plotholes. I get that actually. I don't jump on the pop-culture bandwagon a LOT because I just don't like something that's the big deal of the moment because I just didn't like the narrative, the way it was presented, or it just didn't hit with me. I have and will continue to skip MCU content that I am not interested in because I just don't feel it.

Personally, the less linear and more drawn-out narratives of the Disney+ shows have been some of my favorite content to come out of the MCU. Yeah, there's the big tentpole stuff like Endgame that was great as an action film and culmination of a decade of films and storytelling, but getting to sit in a story that takes course over several weeks really scratches that comic book style that kinda felt missing from MCU in a lot of ways for me.

 

[The Artisan]

Was the court scene definitive? No.
Did it hint at a larger concept? Definitely.

Was Kang the one pulling the scenes spelled out in the first episode? No.
Was somebody clearly pulling the strings in the first episode, even if it was just the TVA and Time Keepers? Definitely.

The problem is that the entire conceit of the show is that it's time travel and a mystery rather than an action narrative. This means a non-linear narrative where a large part of the show is finding things out at the climax rather than handing out all the answers from the jump in order to maintain suspense and curiosity.

The court scene, while not definitive, heavily implied that some time travel was okay and that somebody was pulling the strings and was very selective in what was deemed okay or not. It's not explicitly told you in the moment, but it's heavily implied and later confirmed. No, maybe not everyone connects those dots ahead of time, but you cannot fault a narrative for not giving away all the reveals up front. Spelling it out in episode 1 would've killed all the suspense and discussion for the following episodes.

You keep responding to things as if it's a debate about lore or the story itself, but what I'm getting from reading between the lines is just that you didn't like the story STYLE more than anything. You nitpick and dispute narrative context clues because you don't like the way the story was presented rather than because of plotholes. I get that actually. I don't jump on the pop-culture bandwagon a LOT because I just don't like something that's the big deal of the moment because I just didn't like the narrative, the way it was presented, or it just didn't hit with me. I have and will continue to skip MCU content that I am not interested in because I just don't feel it.

Personally, the less linear and more drawn-out narratives of the Disney+ shows have been some of my favorite content to come out of the MCU. Yeah, there's the big tentpole stuff like Endgame that was great as an action film and culmination of a decade of films and storytelling, but getting to sit in a story that takes course over several weeks really scratches that comic book style that kinda felt missing from MCU in a lot of ways for me.

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Well, what both WandaVision and Loki have in common is that they are quite different from what we've seen conventionally from MCU. While WandaVision wasn't perfect I think it was great, and most of the issue I took with it came at the end. Loki on the other hand, I would say I wasn't able to enjoy passed the second episode. But I had my reasons for watching.

From the courtroom scene and early on in this thread's discussion, what I understood was that a time traveler does not necessarily equate to being a variant. That's (part of) why the Avengers weren't held accountable for meddling with the past. I don't think there was any strong implication of something more besides Ravonna mentioning the time keepers passively but sure, the implication was there that something more is going for Loki's arrest. But still, at the end of the day, it all comes down to it being what Kang wanted. That's how this all makes sense. The other branches don't matter, none of the loose ends matter because what HWR wanted was Loki and Sylvie there in front of him at the end of time.

 

[Trup1aya]

You keep mentioning Kang here and I have to keep reminding you that we don't fully realize his involvement until the end of the show, 5 episodes later. The point I have been trying to get across is that the plot holes (yes to me they are plot holes) are never fully answered and can be brushed away by saying everything happened the way it did because it is how Kang wanted it to happen. This includes the knowledge of the sacred timeline including multiple timelines; I think this was already confirmed with episode 5 when we saw Loki variants that didn't look like each other.

But Thanos leaving the 2014 branch is different from the original events of the MCU. It is the reason why Loki was arrested in the first episode of this show. This is the logic presented by the TVA and we don't know about Kang until the end.

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So what that we didn't learn about Kang until the end? He was working behind the scenes the whole time.

We understand almost immediately that there is more to the TVA than meets the eye and that there propaganda isn't trustworthy.

Sylvie's story on Lamentis strongly suggests that the TVAs simple explanation is lacking. The multiple Lokis and Renslayers admission, breaks further it. And HWR reveal blows it wide open.

So yes, if you were still taking the TVAs word as gospel, then I could understand why you'd think Thanos 2014 should have definitely been pruned. But if you watched the show in its entirety, you would have gone from skeptic to having a full understanding of why that wouldn't neccisarily be the case.

I did concede to you that erasing a timeline instantaneously to make it so it never existed doesn't make sense. I will agree with you there. We also agree that what the TVA has been doing is evil. My argument there is that to show a serious example to the audience just how horrific the erasure of a timeline is, showing what happens to the residents of the a pruned universe in motion would have given the full effect and nature of the TVA - and what they do.

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What you're suggesting he would have had a serious emotional impact. But they chose a different route to focus on the scale of the heinous indifference of the people behind the curtain... and there's value in that approach.

As far as I can tell the story doesn't show the TVA arriving half a day after Steve would have already returned the stones. That's still something we should agree to disagree on. With respect I don't see this going anywhere.

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I would at least like to hear your theory on how we could have a high noon scene in New York, followed by a high noon scene in Mongolia without a significant passage of time being implied (Mind you, these two locations have roughly 12hrs offset between them). Then, we could respectfully disagree. Without that it just feels like willfully ignoring info provided by the story.

A "plothole" is not any detail that you wish would be explained explicitly or depicted on screen. A plothole is a narrative inconsistency. You wanting to know exactly how Steve returned the stones doesn't mean there's a plothole. We know that he had a machine capable of taking him through time and space, instantly. We know he was aiming to return them to the moments after they were taken, and he had the tool that would enable him to do it.. We know he completed the mission, and we are presented with nothing that would have acted as a barrier to him completing this mission.

Even with a lack of agreement on how the reset charges actually work, none of the prevailing theories would have prevented Steve from returning the stones using only the mechanics explicitly presented to us.

 

[The Artisan]

So what that we didn't learn about Kang until the end? He was working behind the scenes the whole time.

We understand that there is more to the TVA than meets the eye and that there propaganda isn't trustworthy almost immediately.

Sylvie's story on Lamentis strongly suggests that the TVAs simple explanation is untrustworthy. The multiple Lokis and Renslayers admission, breaks further it. And HWR reveal blows it wide open.

So yes, if you were still taking the TVAs word as gospel, then I could understand why you'd think Thanos 2014 should have definitely been pruned. But if you watched the show in its entirety, you would have gone from skeptic to having a full understanding of why that wouldn't neccisarily be the case.

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Precisely. BossAttack explained it better than I have in this thread but this is what I mean when I say these loose ends only make sense by attributing them all to what Kang wanted. These plot holes were left unanswered in the first episode. Sylvie's story on Lamentis lends credence to the TVA not to be trusted, but it doesn't explain away all of their fallible logic about variants and other branches created in Endgame.

It's not that I was taking the TVA's word as gospel, it's more so that, at least in the beginning of the show, I felt like if it comes to either siding with them or siding with Loki, I was siding with them. And that's because as the pitch meeting video pointed out, at that point in time Loki was straight up evil off the heels of being the main villain of the first Avengers film.

What you're suggesting he would have had a serious emotional impact. But they chose a different route to focus on the scale of the heinous indifference of the people behind the curtain... and there's value in that approach.

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Who is "he" in this context? Unless that was a typo I'm not sure what you meant. The different route they focused on and the value behind it didn't really have the effect on me that they intended. Being able to see the TVA's effects on innocent people would have for me personally.

I would at least like to hear your theory on how we could have a high noon scene in New York, followed by a high noon scene in Mongolia without a significant passage of time being implied (Mind you, these two locations are roughly 12hrs offset between these two places) Then we could respectfully disagree. Without that it just feels like willfully ignoring info provided by the story.

A "plothole" is not any detail that you wish would we explained explicitly. A plothole is a narrative inconsistency. You wanting to know exactly how Steve returned the stones doesn't mean there's a plothole. We know that a machine capable of taking him through time and space.. he plenty of time to do the work and it's strongly implied that he completed his mission. Therefore, there is no narrative inconsistency.

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That is a good point, there is a big difference in time between being in Mongolia and being in Manhattan. What I would ask for in this context in terms of Steve's mission and the time resetting is how Steve actually gets away with it without the TVA's interference with the time resetting. Both events are things that happen right in the 2012 timeline, we see one without the other but both need to occur for the story to make sense (which they did, we just didn't see it).

The plot hole as a narrative inconsistency is what I referenced above, 2014 Thanos not being accused of being a variant when 2012 Loki is, because that would make the TVA's definition of a variant inconsistent. But we talked about this already; it's easy to paint it all with a brush and say it all comes down to Kang.

 

[Trup1aya]

Precisely. BossAttack explained it better than I have in this thread but this is what I mean when I say these loose ends only make sense by attributing them all to what Kang wanted. These plot holes were left unanswered in the first episode. Sylvie's story on Lamentis lends credence to the TVA not to be trusted, but it doesn't explain away all of their fallible logic about variants and other branches created in Endgame.

It's not that I was taking the TVA's word as gospel, it's more so that, at least in the beginning of the show, I felt like if it comes to either siding with them or siding with Loki, I was siding with them. And that's because as the pitch meeting video pointed out, at that point in time Loki was straight up evil off the heels of being the main villain of the first Avengers film.

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Right, so we're all on a similar page here.

This was all intentional. The TVA was introduced as a righteous group, but overtime, it's revealed that they are unwittingly a tyrannical group performing the will of a man whose only defense against his own impulses is to rid everyone else in the multiverse of their right to free will...

Loki, someone who also uses mind control and deception to subvert free will, immediately saw through this ruse and was changed by the journey to end it.

The logic in the TVA propoganda never made sense. This isn't a plot hole. The point is they were a heavily indoctrinated cult, that didn't question absurdity of the direction of their unseen leader- Like a multiversal Qanon with policing power.

Who is "he" in this context? Unless that was a typo I'm not sure what you meant. The different route they focused on and the value behind it didn't really have the effect on me that they intended. Being able to see the TVA's effects on innocent people would have for me personally.

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Yes it was a typo. I understand that it didn't have the effect for you. But I think most people grasped how horrible HWR and the TVA are.

That is a good point, there is a big difference in time between being in Mongolia and being in Manhattan. What I would ask for in this context in terms of Steve's mission and the time resetting is how Steve actually gets away with it without the TVA's interference with the time resetting. Both events are things that happen right in the 2012 timeline, we see one without the other but both need to occur for the story to make sense (which they did, we just didn't see it).

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The context is Steve had about 12 hours to return 2 stones, a process that would take just a matter of moments given his access to a space&time machine.

The story gives us no reason to speculate that the TVA would have interfered with this mission in anyway - Especially since we are explicitly told that the concept of "resetting" branch realities is a lie, and instead pruned branches are moved to a place where time stops.

The plot hole as a narrative inconsistency is what I referenced above, 2014 Thanos not being accused of being a variant when 2012 Loki is, because that would make the TVA's definition of a variant inconsistent. But we talked about this already; it's easy to paint it all with a brush and say it all comes down to Kang.

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This is not a narrative inconsistency. Miss Minutes and is consistently an unreliable character. The video shown to variants is misleading. The trial is a sham. Loki immediately pointed out the obvious partiality of the Avengers not being pruned... and that same partiality ,reasonably, would extend to 2014 Thanos. We knew , almost immediately, that there was a faux-impartial process in place. we just didn't know who oversaw the operation, nor the scope of it.

What you're calling a "plot hole" is really a conspiracy being unraveled as the protagonists progress through the story.

 

[The Artisan]

The context is Steve had about 12 hours to return 2 stones, a process that would take just a matter of moments given his access to a space&time machine.

The story gives us no reason to speculate that the TVA would have interfered with this mission in anyway - Especially since we are explicitly told that the concept of "resetting" branch realities is a lie, and instead pruned branches are moved to a place where time stops.

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We agree on more things now than we did before, but this is one of those things we're just gonna have to settle on a disagreement about. We were told that the concept of resetting a branched reality is a lie, but even what Ravonna said (or was it Miss Minutes?) doesn't really come to fruition. We saw a ship get dropped off in the void, but not the whole world that it came from. So I guess the time resetting mechanic only sends a portion of that world away, not affecting the whole reality. Like how Thanos used the time stone in Wakanda but it only affected Vision and the trees around him when the mind stone exploded.

This is not a narrative inconsistency. Miss Minutes and is consistently an unreliable character. The video shown to variants is miss leading. The trial is a sham. Loki immediately pointed out the obvious impartiality of the Avengers not being pruned... and that same impartiality reasonably would extend to 2014 Thanos. We knew , almost immediately, that there was a faux-impartial process in place. we just didn't know who oversaw the operation, nor the scope of it.

What you're calling a "plot hole" is really a conspiracy being unraveled as the protagonists progress through the story.

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Was Miss Minutes meant to be seen as consistently unreliable since the beginning? From her cartoon of the sacred timeline & timekeepers to her spending time with Loki in his cubicle in the next episode I really didn't pay much attention to her. At the time I thought she was there for comic relief and not much more so I just didn't really care.

I think most of the audience stopped asking "but what about Thanos in 2014" after the first episode. That plot thread and whatever other baggage came with the concept of branches in Endgame wasn't really picked up or addressed for the rest of the show since the show - as you said - is about Loki, and focused on Loki.

 

[RadzPrower]

We saw a ship get dropped off in the void, but not the whole world that it came from. So I guess the time resetting mechanic only sends a portion of that world away, not affecting the whole reality.

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I'm of the opinion that, yes, only differences from the most recent timeline fork are sent to the void and at that point the timeline reintegrates with the original timeline. That said, it's also not terribly important outside of the off-screen death toll, but when we're already talking infinite branches being pruned, adding more doesn't really register or even make the events worse than they were before. It's like adding a million to infinite...a million's a lot, but not compared to infinity.

Was Miss Minutes meant to be seen as consistently unreliable since the beginning?

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Not explicitly, but later events can give new context to prior events. We know for a fact that she's shady and in on everything based on later episodes so that recontextualizes the earlier episodes as well. Given her eventual revelation as being part of the conspiracy, it throws everything her and the TVA said into question.

Was it all true? No.
Was it all lies? Probably not. There's probably some mix of lies and truth in everything the TVA said.

 

[Trup1aya]

We agree on more things now than we did before, but this is one of those things we're just gonna have to settle on a disagreement about. We were told that the concept of resetting a branched reality is a lie, but even what Ravonna said (or was it Miss Minutes?) doesn't really come to fruition. We saw a ship get dropped off in the void, but not the whole world that it came from. So I guess the time resetting mechanic only sends a portion of that world away, not affecting the whole reality. Like how Thanos used the time stone in Wakanda but it only affected Vision and the trees around him when the mind stone exploded.

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so this is the disagreement that will persist forever because some people will weigh dialogue more heavily than the graphical depictions.

Was Miss Minutes meant to be seen as consistently unreliable since the beginning? From her cartoon of the sacred timeline & timekeepers to her spending time with Loki in his cubicle in the next episode I really didn't pay much attention to her. At the time I thought she was there for comic relief and not much more so I just didn't really care.

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Yes. She was the liason between HWR and the TVA and she helped maintain the facade by lying, misleading people, or omitting key info. You're meant to trust her at first, then realize later that she's a snake.

I think most of the audience stopped asking "but what about Thanos in 2014" after the first episode. That plot thread and whatever other baggage came with the concept of branches in Endgame wasn't really picked up or addressed for the rest of the show since the show - as you said - is about Loki, and focused on Loki.

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When Loki asked "what about the Avengers" and he got a BS answer, that tells us all we need to know about why Thanos 2014 didn't get pruned. Everyone at the TVA was brainwashed and maintained their conviction even in the face of rock solid counter arguments and conflicting evidence.


On the topic of what it means to prune a branched reality My take is this: once a branch is created, what was once a single reality is now two distict realities filled with two distinct populations. For example, there's an entire reality full of people who share an existence with Loki A who got arrested in 2012. And there's an entire reality full of people who share an existence with Loki B who escaped with the tesseract. These populations are largely identical, but are distinct in that they occupy distinct planes of existance. Left to their own devices, the branch could grow and Loki B population could have theoretically lived on to discover the multiverse and interact with population A.

Regardless of the details of how reset charges work, the outcome is that population B is no more. It's still a reality worth of people who did exist, but are no longer within multiverse. optimistic fans say Pop. B's existence prior to the point of divergence folds onto the parent reality, like nothing ever happened. Pessimistic people say the branch gets annihilated at the void. Ultimately it would be nice to have clarification, but its all the same at the macro level that our characters are observing from.

 

[Qikz]

The TVAs logic doesn't suggest 2014 Thanos would be a variant. If HWR intended for a branch reality to produce a Thanos who jumps to 2023 to fight and lose to Avengers- then Thanos actions would be exactly in line with the "sacred timeline."



None of the Avengers got pruned by the TVA, this means that their actions, including the creation of Branch timelines was expected by HWR.

We don't need to be explicitly spoonfed every detail.

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It wasn't that they were expected, it was more the branches they created didn't lead to another Kang so they were fine to leave.

 

[Trup1aya]

It wasn't that they were expected, it was more the branches they created didn't lead to another Kang so they were fine to leave.

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Yeah I think "fine to leave" is a fine way to explain it. I think there's an argument than HWR knows the outcome of the timelines that get left alone, due to having experienced it all before, so "fine to leave" and "expected" are synonymous.