Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)

[Spring]

Timelines and universes, as terms, are interchangeable because each timeline is its own universe. Nexus events are events that drastically alter the predetermined path for those timelines or universes as according to Kang's Sacred Timeline and if allowed to go beyond a certain point those nexus events give birth to entirely new universes.

Combining what The Ancient One said in Endgame with what we learned from Loki, a simple example is... Taking the Time Gem from 2012 is a nexus event that creates a new timeline, a new universe, and the red line - the point of no return for that timeline or universe - is when Dormammu shows up in 2016 and Doctor Strange doesn't have the Time Gem to stop him.

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I think there's where a lot of people are confused. Timelines and Universes are not interchangeable, they are two separate things. Timeline is the course of events that happens over time, in this case, the Sacred Timeline is a predetermined set of events created by HWR. Universe is just the universe as you know it.


HWR found a way to wrangle all the universes into one timeline. So up until episode 6, all the universes aka multiverses exist within HWR's Sacred Timeline and adhere to all the predetermined events set by HWR himself. Within this context, each timeline is NOT it's own universe because there is only one timeline (the Sacred Timeline) and all the universes exist within it.

When Sylvie killed HWR, the multiverses are not bound by the Sacred Timeline anymore. Now, universes could exists on their own timeline like you said. That means variants of HWR aka Kang, Ramatut, Nathaniel Richards now can exist. Any of these variants could potentially win the Multiversal War and create their own version of the TVA. It is also why Loki is sent back to a different TVA even when it exists outside of time.

 

[Squirrel09]

What if Kang isn't the next Thanos, but rather the next Loki? Meaning that they have a redemptive arch planned for him. He'll play as the villain for phase 4, but he'll move into a troubled soul/chaos character, then a final redemptive moment.

 

[Anson225]

No, they were from branched timelines that were supposed be to deleted but weren't, which is what the whole show is about. I think people are confused about the difference between different timelines and different universes, and the show doesn't make it clear. But I don't think you have to think too deeply about it. They are basically the same thing.

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I get it for example the Loki we know branched and created a new universe, but it's still two Tom Hiddleston - but what about Sylvie? Should we just have tons of Toms? lol

"I think people are confused about the difference between different timelines and different universes, and the show doesn't make it clear" < This is EXACTLY what I'm confused on about lol

 

[Heynongman!]

What if Kang isn't the next Thanos, but rather the next Loki? Meaning that they have a redemptive arch planned for him. He'll play as the villain for phase 4, but he'll move into a troubled soul/chaos character, then a final redemptive moment.

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I'm not opposed to the idea, but I think they shouldn't use this style of redemption arc too much. Gotta save one for Doom. But I think with like Iron Lad, they could just have an alternate Kang that's just straight up a hero.

 

[KtotheRoc]

What if Kang isn't the next Thanos, but rather the next Loki? Meaning that they have a redemptive arch planned for him. He'll play as the villain for phase 4, but he'll move into a troubled soul/chaos character, then a final redemptive moment.

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The problem is there are different versions of Kang. Iron Lad, Kang, Immortus, etc.

 

[Squirrel09]

I'm not opposed to the idea, but I think they shouldn't use this style of redemption arc too much. Gotta save one for Doom. But I think with like Iron Lad, they could just have an alternate Kang that's just straight up a hero.

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Yeah, that's true. But it's not like the MCU doesn't already re-use story beats or cinema tropes in excess already. Other Characters already had redemptive arcs, they just played out differently. That being said, I do think a variant version is more likely.

 

[Pendas]

This is largely how I feel aswell.

Also maybe it is just me, but I am pretty tired of Marvel pulling the rug out from under us for their villain reveals. At a certain point, it is no longer novel or surprising for the villain to not be who they have been alluding to (or to be some goofy, or awkward dude). It is just annoying.

I hope the actual Kang will be an intimidating force that commands the screen whenever he is on it.

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You don't need to be an intimidating Force to be a threat, or a villain, or command the screen.

RDJ commanded the screen for the entirety of the MCU, and he did it through pure Charisma.

Also they didn't pull he rug from under you... this IS Kang and Conqueror.
Even though this is supposed to be the "good" version of Kang... he STILL conquered the timeline and created the TVA to impose his own version of 'order' on the Universe. He won... for who knows how long, and he did it in a way to stop the only other being capable to stopping him... himself. This "goofy" dude ended the Multiverse War and took over Time itself.

 

[Veelk]

I highly doubt there is any white-board, rather just a single sentence.

"Whatever allows us to do fun stuff we want is how time travel works and don't bother us about contradictions."

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I have to admit that it's been funny to see people bickering over the time travel continuity since Endgame when this is a franchise that will radically change entire character personalities to suit it's needs for whatever individual movie they are currently working on. I recall thinking how hilarious Tony's final postumous act in the MCU, after having his entire arc be over careful distribution of power, be to give an entire drone system to a teenage boy as a present.

I'm sure there is some guy over at marvel putting in a token effort to keep the time rules consistent, but it's we all know they will break whatever the fuck they need to to get whatever story they are trying to tell at the time.

So like...why bother? Or, why bother focusing on something as plot devicey as time travel when the real thing to keep consistent is the characters?

 

[Jimmypython]

I think there's where a lot of people are confused. Timelines and Universes are not interchangeable, they are two separate things. Timeline is the course of events that happens over time, in this case, the Sacred Timeline is a predetermined set of events created by HWR. Universe is just the universe as you know it.


HWR found a way to wrangle all the universes into one timeline. So up until episode 6, all the universes aka multiverses exist within HWR's Sacred Timeline and adhere to all the predetermined events set by HWR himself. Within this context, each timeline is NOT it's own universe because there is only one timeline (the Sacred Timeline) and all the universes exist within it.

When Sylvie killed HWR, the multiverses are not bound by the Sacred Timeline anymore. Now, universes could exists on their own timeline like you said. That means variants of HWR aka Kang, Ramatut, Nathaniel Richards now can exist. Any of these variants could potentially win the Multiversal War and create their own version of the TVA. It is also why Loki is sent back to a different TVA even when it exists outside of time.

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This is a great explanation!

He Who Remains literally shows universes are stacking on top of each other (vertical), whereas the horizontal direction is the flow of time.

 

[Ravelle]

I just realized Kang "passing the tresshold" of not knowing what was going to happen next was because he was going to die, his records stopped beyond that point. Makes me wonder if he knew he was going to die and if that was in the records as well, if so he led both of them on purpose to him, to get himself killed, right?

 

[ErichWK]

Put me in the group that fucking loved Loki and fucking loved the ending. IT was SO GOOD. This and Wandavision are some of my favorite things the MCU has done. Give me more weird as hell hyper-comicbookie plots, characters and settings. My girlfriend and I fucking loved Majors as Kang.

 

[HeySeuss]

I think there's where a lot of people are confused. Timelines and Universes are not interchangeable, they are two separate things. Timeline is the course of events that happens over time, in this case, the Sacred Timeline is a predetermined set of events created by HWR. Universe is just the universe as you know it.


HWR found a way to wrangle all the universes into one timeline. So up until episode 6, all the universes aka multiverses exist within HWR's Sacred Timeline and adhere to all the predetermined events set by HWR himself. Within this context, each timeline is NOT it's own universe because there is only one timeline (the Sacred Timeline) and all the universes exist within it.

When Sylvie killed HWR, the multiverses are not bound by the Sacred Timeline anymore. Now, universes could exists on their own timeline like you said. That means variants of HWR aka Kang, Ramatut, Nathaniel Richards now can exist. Any of these variants could potentially win the Multiversal War and create their own version of the TVA. It is also why Loki is sent back to a different TVA even when it exists outside of time.

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I've been saying this since episode 2. I understand it can be somewhat confusing but it's really not that hard to follow. Once sacred timeline for all of the multiverses so that HWR can stay in power without having the other Kangs take over. And somehow the events of the Avengers was integral to Kangs existence because those events "were supposed to happen". Probably the unsnap restores his family bloodline so he can exist in the future.

 

[Nahbac]

I just realized Kang "passing the tresshold" of not knowing what was going to happen next was because he was going to die, his records stopped beyond that point. Makes me wonder if he knew he was going to die and if that was in the records as well, if so he led both of them on purpose to him, to get himself killed, right?

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My interpretation is all he knows is that he's about to no longer in the picture, either Loki and Sylvie take over for him or they kill him.

 

[Heynongman!]

I've been saying this since episode 2. I understand it can be somewhat confusing but it's really not that hard to follow. Once sacred timeline for all of the multiverses so that HWR can stay in power without having the other Kangs take over. And somehow the events of the Avengers was integral to Kangs existence because those events "were supposed to happen". Probably the unsnap restores his family bloodline so he can exist in the future.

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It could even be that the events of the infinity saga do not affect his plan in anyway so he just ignores it lol. Now that we know the motivation we can apply some more fun logic to these "This was supposed to happen" events - like that He Who Remains doesn't give a shit unless it affects his plan.

 

[Spring]

I just realized Kang "passing the tresshold" of not knowing what was going to happen next was because he was going to die, his records stopped beyond that point. Makes me wonder if he knew he was going to die and if that was in the records as well, if so he led both of them on purpose to him, to get himself killed, right?

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I think this has to do with Renslayer going rogue. His very own control of the timeline aka the TVA had gone rogue. He no longer has control over the Sacred Timeline because Renslayer created a branch in the timeline.

 

[Ferrio]

I just realized Kang "passing the tresshold" of not knowing what was going to happen next was because he was going to die, his records stopped beyond that point. Makes me wonder if he knew he was going to die and if that was in the records as well, if so he led both of them on purpose to him, to get himself killed, right?

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No, I think he really just wanted to experience what it was like to not know the future again so he just stopped preparing at that point. To make it even better he set things up in motion that he gets to watch a really entertaining show knowing no matter how it ends, he'll be back.

It was just a game to him.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I just realized Kang "passing the tresshold" of not knowing what was going to happen next was because he was going to die, his records stopped beyond that point. Makes me wonder if he knew he was going to die and if that was in the records as well, if so he led both of them on purpose to him, to get himself killed, right?

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No he knew he was either going to die or leaving the Citadel and retire somewhere where he'd have no access to time knowledge

He absolutely did not want them to kill him and undo his work, he just also was so bored and curious that he didn't really care that she killed him either, but his goal was to give them the TVA

 

[Ravelle]

My interpretation is all he knows is that he's about to no longer in the picture, either Loki and Sylvie take over for him or they kill him.

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Yeah, but even if he stepped down his future would still be recorded I think.

I think this has to do with Renslayer going rogue. His very own control of the timeline aka the TVA had gone rogue. He no longer has control over the Sacred Timeline because Renslayer created a branch in the timeline.

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Also yeah, his timeline is busting at the seems. Renslayer causing chaos, Him dying and releasing other Kangs, Scarlet Witch altering reality somewhere and who knows what else is about to go down.

 

[BossAttack]

I have to admit that it's been funny to see people bickering over the time travel continuity since Endgame when this is a franchise that will radically change entire character personalities to suit it's needs for whatever individual movie they are currently working on. I recall thinking how hilarious Tony's final postumous act in the MCU, after having his entire arc be over careful distribution of power, be to give an entire drone system to a teenage boy as a present.

I'm sure there is some guy over at marvel putting in a token effort to keep the time rules consistent, but it's we all know they will break whatever the fuck they need to to get whatever story they are trying to tell at the time.

So like...why bother? Or, why bother focusing on something as plot devicey as time travel when the real thing to keep consistent is the characters?

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Exactly, this ain't TENET or Primer with some hard and fast rules that you can go crazy piecing it all together. Hell, it's not even Back to the Future. It's just "make it up as you go and have fun along the way." Some people can take issue with that, but anyone trying to makes sense of any of it or "piece it all together" are on some Zelda Timeline energy.

It don't matter. The writers aren't thinking about it that hard. Just sit back and relax.

 

[The Artisan]

I think there's where a lot of people are confused. Timelines and Universes are not interchangeable, they are two separate things. Timeline is the course of events that happens over time, in this case, the Sacred Timeline is a predetermined set of events created by HWR. Universe is just the universe as you know it.


HWR found a way to wrangle all the universes into one timeline. So up until episode 6, all the universes aka multiverses exist within HWR's Sacred Timeline and adhere to all the predetermined events set by HWR himself. Within this context, each timeline is NOT it's own universe because there is only one timeline (the Sacred Timeline) and all the universes exist within it.

When Sylvie killed HWR, the multiverses are not bound by the Sacred Timeline anymore. Now, universes could exists on their own timeline like you said. That means variants of HWR aka Kang, Ramatut, Nathaniel Richards now can exist. Any of these variants could potentially win the Multiversal War and create their own version of the TVA. It is also why Loki is sent back to a different TVA even when it exists outside of time.

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To Winny's point though, during the conversation between Bruce and the Ancient One, the word "timeline" was being used interchangeably with "reality" and I think it is reasonable to believe that "reality" to also mean the same thing as "universe"

 

[MuteMap]

But those branched timelines are from the sacred timeline, the MCU timeline we have been watching with the Loki we know. All variants of Loki from these branches should also be Tom Hiddleston, not a completely different Loki from another universe.

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There's an alligator version of Loki. Don't think too much about it. Different timelines and different universes are basically the same thing.

 

[Anson225]

I've been saying this since episode 2. I understand it can be somewhat confusing but it's really not that hard to follow. Once sacred timeline for all of the multiverses so that HWR can stay in power without having the other Kangs take over. And somehow the events of the Avengers was integral to Kangs existence because those events "were supposed to happen". Probably the unsnap restores his family bloodline so he can exist in the future.

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How can there be multi universes within one timeline? Shouldn't it be there are several timelines (branches) in one universe? e.g. we've followed two Tom Hiddleston (2 timelines) in the same universe (the MCU)?

 

[Ferrio]

How can there be multi universes within one timeline? Shouldn't it be there are several timelines (branches) in one universe? e.g. we've followed two Tom Hiddleston (2 timelines) in the same universe (the MCU)?

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They technically all have their own timeline, they're just all being given similar directions so they reach the same destination. The Sacred timeline is a map, not a single timeline. When he dies, the map is gone and they all start going their own directions, which then splinter into more.

Atleast that's how I understand it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yeah, but even if he stepped down his future would still be recorded I think

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Not in a way that he'd have access to it

 

[mugurumakensei]

What if Kang isn't the next Thanos, but rather the next Loki? Meaning that they have a redemptive arch planned for him. He'll play as the villain for phase 4, but he'll move into a troubled soul/chaos character, then a final redemptive moment.

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Kang himself won't be redeemed. Rather, we'll have a permanent good variant of Nathaniel Richards.

 

[ErichWK]

MY friend showed me a video where they think that the TVA is in the Quantum Realm. I don't believe that but I was having trouble expressing my reasoning why that is. Has anyone else heard of that theory?

 

[Ferrio]

MY friend showed me a video where they think that the TVA is in the Quantum Realm. I don't believe that but I was having trouble expressing my reasoning why that is. Has anyone else heard of that theory?

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Would make sense, the MCU already established time don't work right there. Then the Ant-Man tie in.

 

[bad_carbs]

Probabaly a bit off-topic, but since we are talking time travel, I was wondering what ever happened to the time heist tech in Endgame? That shit being invented is a huge game changer. Think it would be part of Quantumania's story and such?

 

[excelsiorlef]

They technically all have their own timeline, they're just all being given similar directions so they reach the same destination. The Sacred timeline is a map, not a single timeline. When he dies, the map is gone and they all start going their own directions, which then splinter into more.

Atleast that's how I understand it.

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Oh I like the idea that Immortus was essentially pruning all the alternate universes to also match the sacred timeline

 

[JaseC64]

If HWR is from earth, from the future...he is just a human from the far future with high advanced technology? I thought he was from an alien species with super powers. Well I don't know the full back story of him but being human sounds odd to be so OP.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

MY friend showed me a video where they think that the TVA is in the Quantum Realm. I don't believe that but I was having trouble expressing my reasoning why that is. Has anyone else heard of that theory?

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I was under the impression that the quantum realm was going to be like the Microverse in the comics, a different thing.

 

[Ferrio]

Oh I like the idea that Immortus was essentially pruning all the alternate universes to also match the sacred timeline

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Exactly, they're not pruning the timeline from existence just the starting growth/catalyst to keep it uniform.

 

[Gustaf]

the fact that there is an alternate TVA makes me think that maybe

there is different universes with multiple timelines

meaning for example the original TVA loki arrived was, TVA1254123

and then at the end, when sylvie send him back to the TVA, she doesnt really know how to use the timepad, and sends him to TVA32324123.

so each TVA it's in charge of their timelines,

or something like that?

 

[excelsiorlef]

the fact that there is an alternate TVA makes me think that maybe

there is different universes with multiple timelines

meaning for example the original TVA loki arrived was, TVA1254123

and then at the end, when sylvie send him back to the TVA, she doesnt really know how to use the timepado, and sends him to TVA32324123.

so each TVA it's in charge of their timelines,

or something like that?

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I think there was one TVA until ooops multiple Kangs starting multiple TVAs now exist

 

[Heynongman!]

MY friend showed me a video where they think that the TVA is in the Quantum Realm. I don't believe that but I was having trouble expressing my reasoning why that is. Has anyone else heard of that theory?

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It's a very popular theory. It all kinda stems from Kang being in Ant-Man 3 Quantumania - keyword there - and that Time definitely flows completely differently in the QR.

 

[Gustaf]

I think there was one TVA until ooops multiple Kangs starting multiple TVAs now exist

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that is something i still dont comprehend, why him being alive, made things to not branch out? what he was actually "doing"?

sending orders to the TVA?

 

[excelsiorlef]

that is something i still dont comprehend, why him being alive, made things to not branch out? what he was actually "doing"?

sending orders to the TVA?

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Seeing everything, knowing what to cut, ruling the TVA yes

 

[excelsiorlef]

So what exactly are the repercussions of Sylvi's time bombs? I feel like there's some connection with Kang losing control but I can't quite make the connection

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Nothing they were a distraction to get as many TVA people out of the HQ so she could get to the Time Keepers with as little resistance as possible

They have zero to do with Immortus losing control. He chose to lose control

 

[Boclfon479]

It's probably not going to happen, but I wonder if they would make it so every Kang we meet in a movie or show is a different one.

like he meets his end and tells them that it's useless because another one will take his spot.

 

[Ferrio]

that is something i still dont comprehend, why him being alive, made things to not branch out? what he was actually "doing"?

sending orders to the TVA?

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I don't think it actually means him living was keeping it at bay. Just him being dead means he can't use his time traveling crap to know what to prune. He stopped looking into the future at that point in time, so the TVA had no info past that point even if they weren't rebelling.

 

[excelsiorlef]

ah got it, so where do Lokis such as Sylvie and Classic Loki and Kid Loki come from? Are they collaterals from the multiversal war?

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No they're literally products of free will manifesting, they were pruned but Loki's survive so they made a home in the void

 

[bad_carbs]

I think this has to do with Renslayer going rogue. His very own control of the timeline aka the TVA had gone rogue. He no longer has control over the Sacred Timeline because Renslayer created a branch in the timeline.

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Miss Minutes gave her files before she booked it, and we know who Miss Minutes answers to

 

[Anson225]

No they're literally products of free will manifesting, they were pruned but Loki's survive so they made a home in the void

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what do you mean by "free will manifesting"?

 

[Deleted member 7051]

ah got it, so where do Lokis such as Sylvie and Classic Loki and Kid Loki come from? Are they collaterals from the multiversal war?

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They were all "pruned" from their universes for doing what Kang didn't want them to do - Kid Loki killed his Thor so that entire universe had to go, Old Loki tried to find Thor again thousands of years after Thanos was defeated and that wasn't allowed so he was taken care of, etc etc etc. The TVA probably "pruned" Lokidile just for being a crocodile, just like they did to Sylvie for being heroic.

 

[Anson225]

They were all "pruned" from their universes for doing what Kang didn't want them to do - Kid Loki killed his Thor so that entire universe had to go, Old Loki tried to find Thor again thousands of years after Thanos was defeated and that wasn't allowed so he was taken care of, etc etc etc. The TVA probably "pruned" Lokidile just for being a crocodile, just like they did to Sylvie for being heroic.

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Oh I understand why they were "pruned" - but my original question is wondering where these people come from "in the first place", because if there's one sacred timeline then there should only be different Tom Hiddleston right? But I think now I get it, people here are saying there are different universes that follow one sacred timeline and these different lokis are from those various universes

 

[excelsiorlef]

what do you mean by "free will manifesting"?

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Making decisions that don't fit with the sacred timeline

 

[Spring]

To Winny's point though, during the conversation between Bruce and the Ancient One, the word "timeline" was being used interchangeably with "reality" and I think it is reasonable to believe that "reality" to also mean the same thing as "universe"

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The Sacred Timeline is not universal knowledge. It's not something that everyone knows in all the different universes. They do not know that they live in a predetermined timeline set by HWR much like how our Lokis and TVA don't know how the Sacred Timeline really works. To the people living in those universes, they have the illusion of free will and think they live on a different timeline than others. But in reality, they are still bounded by HWR's Scared Timeline.

So yeah, timeline and universe are not interchangeable up until episode 6 when HWR died because there is really just one timeline. But now with him dead, each universe could have its own timeline.... that is until another variant of HWR decides to create another TVA to manipulate the timeline.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It's best to understand that it's not that free will didn't exist prior to Immortus dying but that he actively surpressed it

 

[The Artisan]

The Sacred Timeline is not universal knowledge. It's not something that everyone knows in all the different universes. They do not know that they live in a predetermined timeline set by HWR much like how our Lokis and TVA don't know how the Sacred Timeline really works. To the people living in those universes, they have the illusion of free will and think they live on a different timeline than others. But in reality, they are still bounded by HWR's Scared Timeline.

So yeah, timeline and universe are not interchangeable up until episode 6 when HWR died because there is really just one timeline. But now with him dead, each universe could have its own timeline.... that is until another variant of HWR decides to create another TVA to manipulate the timeline.

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I'm not saying the Ancient One had knowledge of the sacred timeline, but she understood fully that the Bruce Banner she was interacting with came from 11 years in the future. Since his reality is different from hers, she refers to their different experiences as that; realities. All I'm saying is that in this context, since the word reality was being used interchangeably with timeline during her conversation with Bruce, it is reasonable to also equate the word reality with universe.

 

[YaoGuia]

How can there be multi universes within one timeline? Shouldn't it be there are several timelines (branches) in one universe? e.g. we've followed two Tom Hiddleston (2 timelines) in the same universe (the MCU)?

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Instead of "universes" use the word dimensions. There are multiple dimensions, some where Loki was our Loki and some where he was an Alligator, but they're all following prescribed events according to a single timeline, no one in those dimensions had free will, they were all deterministic and plotted out by one person to prevent a multiversal war from happening.

From the first episode - multiple dimensions in the sacred timeline:

From the last episode - multiple dimensions in the sacred timeline: