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jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,373
Why are there not heroes in other eras

That's something that comes up in Marvel occasionally, what makes "today" so special. There's the idea that modern times are the "heroic age" or something like that, and for whatever reason it just falls out of vogue in the future. Probably because the future is almost always some sort of horrible apocalypse - nuclear armageddon, global dictatorship, technocratic hellscape.

Actually, History of the Marvel Universe kind of covers it.

KvRIlUq.png
 
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Reizzz

Member
Jun 19, 2019
1,813
What is she even going to be doing in that time? The ending implies that Loki was erased from *every* known timeline as he's a stranger to the TVA.
I just think it implies he was sent to a timeline where they haven't stopped a loki variant. All the lokis still exist. Time isn't sequential in the tva.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
Because it was an ending focused purely on setting up future stuff than being focused on our characters. That's why it felt weird. Some guy we never met sat and monologued about stuff we've never seen and future events that might come and then it ended.

As good as the performance was, this is basically what happened. At least we had met Willy Wonka or facsimiles of the Wizard of Oz before the final expositions were levied. But this guy wasn't even hiding in plain sight throughout or anything. It was just "Ok...NOW I'm telling you the truth...really."

The consolation prize, I guess, is that for all those fans who didn't want the age of Iron Man to end, Sylvie found a way to bring back Tony Stark to life.
 

egg

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,579
Genuinely curious now to see if Jane ends up becoming Thor in LaT because she's worthy or if she is from the multiverse. Cap took Mjolnir back with him at the end of Endgame so how would it work I wonder.
 

Ashhong

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,596
I just think it implies he was sent to a timeline where they haven't stopped a loki variant. All the lokis still exist. Time isn't sequential in the tva.
Do we think he was "sent" to a certain timeline? Or is this going to be the new timeline going forward? Are Marvel's plans to have multiple timelines and shit going on?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,215
This is what I was wondering, lots of us knew this was hinting at Kang. But to have the final episode be an infodump from a brand new character, I dont see how that can be enjoyable to people who have no idea who he is.

Like I expected a shot of Kang mid credits after they defeated another variant Loki, not a whole episode hearing his back story.

I have no idea who Kang is other than reading the last couple of pages. It was very enjoyable to me. A great little story introducing him, as opposed to Thanos' introduction where people not in the know where just like "who"?
 

Kaelan

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,641
Maryland
We fucking FEASTING. When Jonathan majors said "see you soon" goddamn… he is going to fuck everyone up. I bet antman 3 is another version of him, and later on we will see a more menacing one
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
I love that people went from the genocidal Thanos had a point to the crazy self-appointed crazy dictator is better than the alternative that is a really mean dictator.
Yes, shit is in the fan, it is flying around now, just making a mess. But our Marvel Super Heroes will face adversity, suffer great loss, and after they win, I hope it is clear that Sylvie is right and there is no excuse for time travelling fascism.
 

Reizzz

Member
Jun 19, 2019
1,813
Do we think he was "sent" to a certain timeline? Or is this going to be the new timeline going forward? Are Marvel's plans to have multiple timelines and shit going on?
A whole bunch of timelines. That's how they explain what will happen in far from home (won't say just in case your avoiding spoilers)
 

egg

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,579
Do we think he was "sent" to a certain timeline? Or is this going to be the new timeline going forward? Are Marvel's plans to have multiple timelines and shit going on?

There are multiple timelines at this point and I think Loki was sent to a different one. The Mobius and B15 he was talking to at the end seem to know who is in control of the TVA and that it's Kang. B15 says something alone the line of like "does he want us to leave these other timelines alone". Our B15 and Mobius don't give a fuck about keeping the timeline in order and they don't know who is running the TVA which is why Loki was so urgently trying to inform them.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,906
Seems like Ravonna Renslayer is now set up to take over as the next She Who Remains since she pretty much wants the same job.
 

Miracle Ache

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,206
I love that people went from the genocidal Thanos had a point to the crazy self-appointed crazy dictator is better than the alternative that is a really mean dictator.
Yes, shit is in the fan, it is flying around now, just making a mess. But our Marvel Super Heroes will face adversity, suffer great loss, and after they win, I hope it is clear that Sylvie is right and there is no excuse for time travelling fascism.
Hey, at least He Who Remains made the trains run on time.
 

Ukumio

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,415
Australia
What is she even going to be doing in that time? The ending implies that Loki was erased from *every* known timeline as he's a stranger to the TVA.
Considering the amount of time that exists (Infinite BTW) and the amount of people and beings that exist within that infinite time is it at all surprising for Mobius to not recognise someone?

The only reason Mobius knew and cared about Loki before was because he was hunting another Loki varient and even then those Loki varients come in many shapes and sizes.

If we assume that Loki is now in a timeline where Sylvie didn't hunt down the TVA then there would be no reason for Mobius to know or care about who or what Loki is.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,050
Sylvie made the right decision.

Kang needs to be dealt with, all of them. Making people suffer and taking away their free will and lives isn't a solution.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,050
As for the acting, I think they did a good job portraying a man who is barely keeping it together from having all this timey wimey shit in his brain along with god knows how long hes been alive.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,413
The way they described it previously, the TVA exists outside of space/time. There aren't variations of it because it's an abstract space created by "He Who Remains". If the TVA was reset somehow by a different version of "He Who Remains", I don't see any reason to believe that Loki can or will find *his* Mobius, he doesn't exist anymore.
 

Churrific

Member
Oct 27, 2017
46
If that "See you soon" line was a reference to the recent 12 Monkeys tv show (one of the better timeline shenanigan shows), then chef's kiss.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,958
As good as the performance was, this is basically what happened. At least we had met Willy Wonka or facsimiles of the Wizard of Oz before the final expositions were levied. But this guy wasn't even hiding in plain sight throughout or anything. It was just "Ok...NOW I'm telling you the truth...really."

The consolation prize, I guess, is that for all those fans who didn't want the age of Iron Man to end, Sylvie found a way to bring back Tony Stark to life.

Like, there's a way to leave stingers for another season but still focusing things on character. LOST always managed a good mix of this in the early seasons, but then by later seasons all they had left were plot stingers because every character had already completed their arcs three times over. And the show became a far lesser show that was more interested in "mystery" and setting the next thing up than the actual characters.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
I wonder how they're gonna resolve an epic storyline like a multiversal war within these characters lifetimes

suddenly all these movies are meaningless because their conflicts are nuntz compared to the multiversal war. who cares if peter parker gets goes to court, the laws of timespace are collapsing.

i'll see them anyways
 

Darkgran

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,247
I really don't understand the posts of Majors being a bad actor or miscast. Did you all watch he same thing I did?????

Dude was FANTASTIC.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
I've been catching up on the MCU shows and dang I can't wait to see where this shit goes. It takes a bit to get the wheels turning on this one but Loki is by far one of their better shows so far.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,413
I wonder how they're gonna resolve an epic storyline like a multiversal war within these characters lifetimes

suddenly all these movies are meaningless because their conflicts are nuntz compared to the multiversal war. who cares if peter parker gets goes to court, the laws of timespace are collapsing.

i'll see them anyways

Lol my friend just said tonight in a group chat that she liked Black Widow but the stakes felt kinda small.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,093
I love that people went from the genocidal Thanos had a point to the crazy self-appointed crazy dictator is better than the alternative that is a really mean dictator.
Yes, shit is in the fan, it is flying around now, just making a mess. But our Marvel Super Heroes will face adversity, suffer great loss, and after they win, I hope it is clear that Sylvie is right and there is no excuse for time travelling fascism.
As someone put it somewhere else: I don't understand the criticism of Loki wanting to deal with a dictator with slightly more tact and forethought than George W. Bush.
 

Star-Lord

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,785
So can someone explain, so new timelines are now forming because of this event. And other universes are out there already. Were other Kangs in those universes allowing branching paths as well?

Also as much as I love these huge ambitious ideas doing multiverses and new branching timelines I do hope they still focus on the 616 timeline the most.
 

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,093
I feel like I watched a different show than the people that say this episode didn't focus on 'character'.

Episodes 1 through 5 were about putting Loki through a series of experiences that possibly changed him. Episode 6 was about testing those changes over and over again. PROVING that Loki had actually changed.

•Originally, Loki wanted ultimate power. He wanted this because he felt unloved his entire life, looked down upon, alone. But when he -saw- ultimate power, the TVA, he realized that it was even more alienating than a lack of it. The TVA was dry, boring, empty, soulless.
•Originally, Loki was alone. His family cared for him, but he couldn't see it. He thought his father and brother looked down on him, or were ashamed of him. And even though he did not resent his mother, he probably felt like she couldn't possibly actually love him, because he wasn't hers, and he was such a fuckup. But these people loved him, and he couldn't accept it or risk the vulnerability to love those people back. Over the course of the series, he is forced to spend time with people that understand him in some way, and this allows him to understand himself better, but also develop true and meaningful connections (Mobius and Sylvie)

In this episode, his character development is tested and confirmed TWICE. Miss Minutes offers him Asgard, Midgard, Thanos, The Infinity Gauntlet, and he turns it down. He could have had incredible power, but his newfound selflessness prevailed. Then Kang offers him the ultimate throne: dominion over ALL OF TIME AND SPACE. LITERAL KING OF SPACE. And he turns it down again! Everything he's ever wanted is right in front of him, but he begins to put the needs of others first.

And every word with Sylvie, everything they do together, every aspect of the fight, it proves that he has finally found a person he can love, and that it's not fragile, not a lie. Loki barely fights her, begs and pleads for her to stop, puts his own life on the line to spare everyone from a multiversal war but also to spare Sylvie the guilt and regret and emptiness that comes with mistakes made out of anger and resentment and loneliness.

The Loki of episode 1 would have killed Kang the second it was offered to him, slipped on the super TemPad without a second thought, and gone on a rampage throughout time and space to subjugate the Avengers. He would have been truly and utterly alone doing it, too.

Episode 6 had a lot of Kang exposition, but every single Loki and Sylvie moment was crafted with geniune purpose. Even things like the way he literally steps out of her way when they get to the front door, he knows that this is HER destiny that is approaching, and does not try to usurp the moment until the very end when he has to try and stop her to save her.

Edit: And one more thing: Several times through the show, it's noted that Loki is a survivor. Surviving is what he does. He survived falling from the bifrost, survived the encounter with Kurse, survived Ragnarok, survived Lamentis, survived the void (different versions, etc). But in episode 6, survival is the last thing on his mind. He came within a hair's breadth of being killed by Sylvie so that he could try and talk her down, dissuade her from making a mistake, so that she could be okay. The finale is selfless act after selfless act, genuine heroism from a guy for whom it seemed impossible.
 
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KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,622
So can someone explain, so new timelines are now forming because of this event. And other universes are out there already. Were other Kangs in those universes allowing branching paths as well?

Also as much as I love these huge ambitious ideas doing multiverses and new branching timelines I do hope they still focus on the 616 timeline the most.

The MCU is not 616. 616 is the main universe from the comics. The MCU is 199999.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,958
I love that people went from the genocidal Thanos had a point to the crazy self-appointed crazy dictator is better than the alternative that is a really mean dictator.
Yes, shit is in the fan, it is flying around now, just making a mess. But our Marvel Super Heroes will face adversity, suffer great loss, and after they win, I hope it is clear that Sylvie is right and there is no excuse for time travelling fascism.

Because that logic only works if you accept that this is a fictional universe where the good guys always win. Within the context of the world, there is no guarantee that our Marvel Heroes can defeat every version of Kang and prevent a Multiversal War destroying the universe. So no, Sylvie is not right. She's only right if she has meta-knowledge of how the MCU works.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,667
I feel like I watched a different show than the people that say this episode didn't focus on 'character'.

Episodes 1 through 5 were about putting Loki through a series of experiences that possibly changed him. Episode 6 was about testing those changes over and over again. PROVING that Loki had actually changed.

•Originally, Loki wanted ultimate power. He wanted this because he felt unloved his entire life, looked down upon, alone. But when he -saw- ultimate power, the TVA, he realized that it was even more alienating than a lack of it. The TVA was dry, boring, empty, soulless.
•Originally, Loki was alone. His family cared for him, but he couldn't see it. He thought his father and brother looked down on him, or were ashamed of him. And even though he did not resent his mother, he probably felt like she couldn't possibly actually love him, because he wasn't hers, and he was such a fuckup. But these people loved him, and he couldn't accept it or risk the vulnerability to love those people back. Over the course of the series, he is forced to spend time with people that understand him in some way, and this allows him to understand himself better, but also develop true and meaningful connections (Mobius and Sylvie)

In this episode, his character development is tested and confirmed TWICE. Miss Minutes offers him Asgard, Midgard, Thanos, The Infinity Gauntlet, and he turns it down. He could have had incredible power, but his newfound selflessness prevailed. Then Kang offers him the ultimate throne: dominion over ALL OF TIME AND SPACE. LITERAL KING OF SPACE. And he turns it down again! Everything he's ever wanted is right in front of him, but he begins to put the needs of others first.

And every word with Sylvie, everything they do together, every aspect of the fight, it proves that he has finally found a person he can love, and that it's not fragile, not a lie. Loki barely fights her, begs and pleads for her to stop, puts his own life on the line to spare everyone from a multiversal war but also to spare Sylvie the guilt and regret and emptiness that comes with mistakes made out of anger and resentment and loneliness.

The Loki of episode 1 would have killed Kang the second it was offered to him, slipped on the super TemPad without a second thought, and gone on a rampage throughout time and space to subjugate the Avengers. He would have been truly and utterly alone doing it, too.

Episode 6 had a lot of Kang exposition, but every single Loki and Sylvie moment was crafted with geniune purpose. Even things like the way he literally steps out of her way when they get to the front door, he knows that this is HER destiny that is approaching, and does not try to usurp the moment until the very end when he has to try and stop her to save her.

Well said
 

Reizzz

Member
Jun 19, 2019
1,813
So can someone explain, so new timelines are now forming because of this event. And other universes are out there already. Were other Kangs in those universes allowing branching paths as well?

Also as much as I love these huge ambitious ideas doing multiverses and new branching timelines I do hope they still focus on the 616 timeline the most.
Think of it this way. Yes new timelines were "born" ...but since it's the tva those timelines are already caught up to our timeline (time is cyclical in the tva). The main difference now is there are multiple tva's each with a leader with their own agenda.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,053
I wonder how they're gonna resolve an epic storyline like a multiversal war within these characters lifetimes

suddenly all these movies are meaningless because their conflicts are nuntz compared to the multiversal war. who cares if peter parker gets goes to court, the laws of timespace are collapsing.

i'll see them anyways

 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,929
Canada
I'm pretty glad that He Who Remains wasn't another Loki variant. I think it would have worked better thematically, but I definitely prefer bonkers metaversal nonsense.

I also love how the "Big Bad" both was and wasn't Kang.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,050
I wonder how they're gonna resolve an epic storyline like a multiversal war within these characters lifetimes

suddenly all these movies are meaningless because their conflicts are nuntz compared to the multiversal war. who cares if peter parker gets goes to court, the laws of timespace are collapsing.

i'll see them anyways
You could say this about a lot of comic books though. Not every book is about The Avengers, there are smaller heroes too.

Its not about constantly upping the ante, the Avengers have their job and guys like Daredevil have theirs dealing with guys like the Kingpin.

I'd argue Spider-Man is one of the better ones in history because his stories tend to be more personal or down to earth when hes written right.
 

StarsTurnCold

Avenger
Apr 30, 2018
653
Like, there's a way to leave stingers for another season but still focusing things on character. LOST always managed a good mix of this in the early seasons, but then by later seasons all they had left were plot stingers because every character had already completed their arcs three times over. And the show became a far lesser show that was more interested in "mystery" and setting the next thing up than the actual characters.

I'm not saying the MCU is above criticism, it certainly has its faults but we're 20+ movies and 3+ shows in. I would think you should know by now this franchise is not for you since all I ever see you post is how bad or dumb the show/movie was in every MCU thread.

Anyways personally, I found Loki to be the best show by far of the 3 on Disney Plus. Not sure yet how I feel about Kang's...odd performance this episode but really interested to see how different the next Kang will be after watching him warn how much more evil his variants can be.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
Was that opening an actual new Marvel Studios thing, or it was just for this episode? I assumed the latter, but I've seen people suggest otherwise.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,413
I feel like I watched a different show than the people that say this episode didn't focus on 'character'.

Episodes 1 through 5 were about putting Loki through a series of experiences that possibly changed him. Episode 6 was about testing those changes over and over again. PROVING that Loki had actually changed.

•Originally, Loki wanted ultimate power. He wanted this because he felt unloved his entire life, looked down upon, alone. But when he -saw- ultimate power, the TVA, he realized that it was even more alienating than a lack of it. The TVA was dry, boring, empty, soulless.
•Originally, Loki was alone. His family cared for him, but he couldn't see it. He thought his father and brother looked down on him, or were ashamed of him. And even though he did not resent his mother, he probably felt like she couldn't possibly actually love him, because he wasn't hers, and he was such a fuckup. But these people loved him, and he couldn't accept it or risk the vulnerability to love those people back. Over the course of the series, he is forced to spend time with people that understand him in some way, and this allows him to understand himself better, but also develop true and meaningful connections (Mobius and Sylvie)

In this episode, his character development is tested and confirmed TWICE. Miss Minutes offers him Asgard, Midgard, Thanos, The Infinity Gauntlet, and he turns it down. He could have had incredible power, but his newfound selflessness prevailed. Then Kang offers him the ultimate throne: dominion over ALL OF TIME AND SPACE. LITERAL KING OF SPACE. And he turns it down again! Everything he's ever wanted is right in front of him, but he begins to put the needs of others first.

And every word with Sylvie, everything they do together, every aspect of the fight, it proves that he has finally found a person he can love, and that it's not fragile, not a lie. Loki barely fights her, begs and pleads for her to stop, puts his own life on the line to spare everyone from a multiversal war but also to spare Sylvie the guilt and regret and emptiness that comes with mistakes made out of anger and resentment and loneliness.

The Loki of episode 1 would have killed Kang the second it was offered to him, slipped on the super TemPad without a second thought, and gone on a rampage throughout time and space to subjugate the Avengers. He would have been truly and utterly alone doing it, too.

Episode 6 had a lot of Kang exposition, but every single Loki and Sylvie moment was crafted with geniune purpose. Even things like the way he literally steps out of her way when they get to the front door, he knows that this is HER destiny that is approaching, and does not try to usurp the moment until the very end when he has to try and stop her to save her.

Edit: And one more thing: Several times through the show, it's noted that Loki is a survivor. Surviving is what he does. He survived falling from the bifrost, survived the encounter with Kurse, survived Ragnarok, survived Lamentis, survived the void (different versions, etc). But in episode 6, survival is the last thing on his mind. He came within a hair's breadth of being killed by Sylvie so that he could try and talk her down, dissuade her from making a mistake, so that she could be okay. The finale is selfless act after selfless act, genuine heroism from a guy for whom it seemed impossible.

Agree with just about all of this.
 

Rainy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,626
I feel like I watched a different show than the people that say this episode didn't focus on 'character'.

Episodes 1 through 5 were about putting Loki through a series of experiences that possibly changed him. Episode 6 was about testing those changes over and over again. PROVING that Loki had actually changed.

•Originally, Loki wanted ultimate power. He wanted this because he felt unloved his entire life, looked down upon, alone. But when he -saw- ultimate power, the TVA, he realized that it was even more alienating than a lack of it. The TVA was dry, boring, empty, soulless.
•Originally, Loki was alone. His family cared for him, but he couldn't see it. He thought his father and brother looked down on him, or were ashamed of him. And even though he did not resent his mother, he probably felt like she couldn't possibly actually love him, because he wasn't hers, and he was such a fuckup. But these people loved him, and he couldn't accept it or risk the vulnerability to love those people back. Over the course of the series, he is forced to spend time with people that understand him in some way, and this allows him to understand himself better, but also develop true and meaningful connections (Mobius and Sylvie)

In this episode, his character development is tested and confirmed TWICE. Miss Minutes offers him Asgard, Midgard, Thanos, The Infinity Gauntlet, and he turns it down. He could have had incredible power, but his newfound selflessness prevailed. Then Kang offers him the ultimate throne: dominion over ALL OF TIME AND SPACE. LITERAL KING OF SPACE. And he turns it down again! Everything he's ever wanted is right in front of him, but he begins to put the needs of others first.

And every word with Sylvie, everything they do together, every aspect of the fight, it proves that he has finally found a person he can love, and that it's not fragile, not a lie. Loki barely fights her, begs and pleads for her to stop, puts his own life on the line to spare everyone from a multiversal war but also to spare Sylvie the guilt and regret and emptiness that comes with mistakes made out of anger and resentment and loneliness.

The Loki of episode 1 would have killed Kang the second it was offered to him, slipped on the super TemPad without a second thought, and gone on a rampage throughout time and space to subjugate the Avengers. He would have been truly and utterly alone doing it, too.

Episode 6 had a lot of Kang exposition, but every single Loki and Sylvie moment was crafted with geniune purpose. Even things like the way he literally steps out of her way when they get to the front door, he knows that this is HER destiny that is approaching, and does not try to usurp the moment until the very end when he has to try and stop her to save her.

Edit: And one more thing: Several times through the show, it's noted that Loki is a survivor. Surviving is what he does. He survived falling from the bifrost, survived the encounter with Kurse, survived Ragnarok, survived Lamentis, survived the void (different versions, etc). But in episode 6, survival is the last thing on his mind. He came within a hair's breadth of being killed by Sylvie so that he could try and talk her down, dissuade her from making a mistake, so that she could be okay. The finale is selfless act after selfless act, genuine heroism from a guy for whom it seemed impossible.
Great write up, fully agree!
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
One thing I didn't understand during Kang's speech is when they "crossed the threshold"
What happened ? Why did he suddenly stopped knowing in advance, what made the multiverse start to branch out at that exact moment ?

Loki and Sylvie had a choice, he didn't know which they'd make... because both options involve him leaving the time "throne"
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,093
So can someone explain, so new timelines are now forming because of this event. And other universes are out there already. Were other Kangs in those universes allowing branching paths as well?

Also as much as I love these huge ambitious ideas doing multiverses and new branching timelines I do hope they still focus on the 616 timeline the most.
Time is the fourth dimension.

Just like up and down, left and right, back and forth don't disappear just because you are not subjectively experiencing them, the past and future are always happening.

The war is back on and has been raging. Though it may well currently be a...

Secret...

War.