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Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Yes. I understand this. And the show COULD have explained it any other way, too. The things you know and the things the show tells you aren't god given facts. The writers wrote it. And when the writers want to write something else, even something that seems REALLY absurd - for example a story about a time-traveling Loki fighting against another female Loki and then taking on the Lord of all time, even after Loki most definitely died - then they find a way to do exactly that.

Loki and Sylvie sitting in front of that desk, listening to a dude explaining the Lore for 30 minutes wasn't the inevitable consequence of what was happened before. ANYTHING else could have also happened, if the writers wanted it to. And I would have preferred most other ways to a stale wikipedia lore entry. That's all I'm saying.

But this is how it always works. The literal progenitor of the "man behind the curtain" mystery is The Wizard of Oz and Oz himself spends time telling Dorothy and her friends that they never needed to seek him out because the things they hoped he would give them, they already possessed.

Kang was the man behind the curtain and, amusingly enough, he wanted Loki and Sylvie to do what we expected they would do - I believed Loki would take over the TVA but make it more transparent and less destructive while Sylvie joined the mainline MCU to help them fight off a younger Kang, but the show itself went with something much cooler.

Now while it's entirely possible Sylvie will still do something like that since she now has a device that grants her unfettered access to the multiverse and all the knowledge she'd need about the previous Multi-Kang war, we have no idea what's going on with Loki. He's back at the TVA, sure, but is it the same one? Does every universe now have its own TVA and he's in a different one, or has another Kang already taken over the only TVA that exists?
 

denx

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,322
Erik Voss can rest easy now that Kang didn't turn into another Mephisto lol

Damn, what a way to end the season. Can't wait for Season 2 and Quantumania.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,545
If your argument is "well the writers can do whatever they want, why didn't they do what *I* wanted" then the answer is that they're simply better writers than you are.

Sweet jesus, my argument is "the writers can do whatever they want, why didn't they do anything that wasn't this". What is up with you guys IMMEDIATELY feeling the need to personally attack someone for voicing such absurdly mild criticism as "Man, I wish the exposition at the end would have been presented as well as it was in the beginning?"

"WELL, THEY ARE BETTER WRITERS THAN YOU!!"

Uh. Sure! Really sorry for voicing mild criticism, I'll go write a multi million dollar marvel show so I can get permission to have any kind of less than exclusively positive feelings on Season 2, I guess :D
 

Sblargh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,926
So, this begs the question, what are the best runs with Kang to get a feel for the character?

Avengers Forever is a weird ass story, but given that it is a story about grabbing different avengers from different points in continuity, it works very well as a standalone story.
Bonus points: it also has the TVA, time keepers, He Who Remains...
 

TyrantII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,365
Boston
Marvel time travel doesn't work like that, you can't change events that would alter you. Unless you got a super powerful artifact. So if you go back in time to kill your grandfather, you just killed some random and created a new timeline that you won't experience, you will just go back to your present.

This is how Tony's quantum time travel works, they basically can't ride down the alternative path they create, but are locked into returning to their own home timeline.

That's not the case here, except that the TVA can't lock onto anything past the void because it's the end of time when everything converged. But their pads seem to be able to lock onto anything prior, and each branch.

Anyways, awesome and fulfilling finale. Quite the chicken and egg problem for the Avengers now. Sylvie still has some growing to do, but Variant Loki is full fledged hero now. He was glorious purpose finally.

The TVA in the end wasn't just pruning variants, but bending entire timelines and universes to keep Variant Kangs from being created; to keep the Infinite multiverse war from bubbling up again. But nature finds a way.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,930
When Loki and Sylvie met him he was the only Kang left in existence. His entire use of the TVA was to ensure his timeline was the only timeline to ensure no other Kangs would spring up - because he killed the others.


Also I'm kind of reeling with glee that Loki is basically the "main" character of the MCU right now. It's genius and they hit the lottery with Hiddleston because everyone loves him and he'll keep doing this forever if they want.

The potential for a Loki - Thor reunion is going to be crazy.
 

Reizzz

Member
Jun 19, 2019
1,813
Erik Voss can rest easy now that Kang didn't turn into another Mephisto lol

Damn, what a way to end the season. Can't wait for Season 2 and Quantumania.
So if Kang is in Ant-Man 3.. does that mean it's the Kang from mcu we've been following? (And obviously not the final Kang).
 

trimin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
665
Never read the comics or know anything about Kang, but this whole episode and the exposition reminded me of the Planescape Torment universe.
 

Deleted member 2145

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
29,223
When Kang talked about meeting alternate versions of himself, I immediately went "oh, so Reed Richards is gonna be Black too, cool."

It's not a done deal, but considering they're going to be operating in the same space - super-smart scientist guy who discovers and then masters the multiverse - it feels like a shitty move to have some white guy come up and be the smarter, nobler, more successful, "good" version of Kang. Not that Disney/Marvel hasn't made shittier moves, but their Phase 4 diversity push would be really undermined by something like that.

there was a 4 looking shape in the beginning of the episode and with the blue behind it and I immediately thought about the F4

AcCvLSz.png



definitely me reaching but hey
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
So if there was only one universe does that mean the others got erased or just completed separated from the other ones?

Given how confusing it is for there to have been thousands of Variants of Loki when Kang himself said he destroyed all the other universes in the multiverse, I'm going to assume that Kang didn't actually destroy every other universe. The multiverse must have existed in a much more finite capacity, with each universe within it sticking to the Sacred Timeline that Kang had written to prevent the birth of any more Kang Variants.

Perhaps the universes he didn't destroy, the ones all those Variant Lokis came from, didn't yet have a Kang in them and so he manipulated their timelines so that they never would?

Either way, yes, it sounds as though the Kang from the MCU universe unleashed Alioth upon practically every other universe in the multiverse and basically destroyed them all.
 

Heynongman!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,933
So if Kang is in Ant-Man 3.. does that mean it's the Kang from mcu we've been following? (And obviously not the final Kang).
So our Kang from today is not "Kang" specifically. I would say he lies between Immortus and the actual He Who Remains character. Kang in Ant-Man will be Kang the Conqueror, I'm assuming the statue they showed in the TVA in this episode is of our Ant-Man Kang.
 

Quinnzel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
227
Scotland
Good episode, really enjoyed it. Great seeing Throg, Thanoscopter and all the wee background details (Ronan's Dark Astor)

Got my own theory that they're gonna merge the idea of Immortus and He Who Remains together, that he's been using the TvA to Prune his younger (Kang) variant selves from messing with things, and that after being stopped by Sylvie et al. they unwittingly let a worse threat (Kaaaaaang!) out to conquer our hearts....er, the MCU

Ha! I was pretty close with my theory! Kang Gang wins!

Watched the episode again, man I hope Majors is around for a long time. He makes the exposition dump such a delight to watch.

We never found out who Renslayers 'other' favourite agent was did we? Had thought for a moment we might come across a couple of other Mobius variants that work for her but maybe not.

Now to wait for What If?
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,567
This is how Tony's quantum time travel works, they basically can't ride down the alternative path they create, but are locked into returning to their own home timeline.

That's not the case here, except that the TVA can't lock onto anything past the void because it's the end of time when everything converged. But their pads seem to be able to lock onto anything prior, and each branch.

Anyways, awesome and fulfilling finale. Quite the chicken and egg problem for the Avengers now. Sylvie still has some growing to do, but Variant Loki is full fledged hero now. He was glorious purpose finally.

The TVA in the end wasn't just pruning variants, but bending entire timelines and universes to keep Variant Kangs from being created; to keep the Infinite multiverse war from bubbling up again. But nature finds a way.

I wonder if He Who Remains needed Tony to invent time travel with Scott Lang's help, in order for the tech to eventually progress enough for him to invent whatever helps him manage and run TVA, predict variance and travel between the timelines.
 

Reizzz

Member
Jun 19, 2019
1,813
So our Kang from today is not "Kang" specifically. I would say he lies between Immortus and the actual He Who Remains character. Kang in Ant-Man will be Kang the Conqueror, I'm assuming the statue they showed in the TVA in this episode is of our Ant-Man Kang.
But doesn't that mean Loki went back to the correct timeline then? Why wouldn't Mobius know him.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,438
I was tellin y'all, don't trust the promos.


I just wanna pour one out for all the people that doubted it could possibly be Kang/Immortus and that it HAD to be a Loki variant. Not only did they go against your "It has to be someone we know" stuff that literally only applies to whodunnits, but they also masterfully handled the introduction. The elevator opening up with Majors - extremely reminiscent of the pulling back of the curtain in Wizard of Oz. And since the show already pulled so much from that already, it could have only gone that way. First MCU show to keep me hooked, and leave me satisfied.
I believed it was going to be like classic TV series The Prisoner where they keep asking 'Number 1's' identity, Sylvie unmasks the creator as herself. I feel no shame in having my suspicions and sharing my guesses, even if they're wrong.
 

denx

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,322
Really interested in how things will play out with Ravonna next season. She could become the wildcard for Kang's plans.
 

Heynongman!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,933
I believed it was going to be like classic TV series The Prisoner where they keep asking 'Number 1's' identity, Sylvie unmasks the creator as herself. I feel no shame in having my suspicions and sharing my guesses, even if they're wrong.

Hey no shaming theories here - I only point out the people that vehemently shot down the possibility that they would introduce a new character and talked down to anyone that explained why it could happen. There was a lot of that in this thread and it sucked.

But doesn't that mean Loki went back to the correct timeline then? Why wouldn't Mobius know him.

I'm not following. Sylvie killed He Who Remains, and it allowed Kang to rise to power, and most likely either he or one of his variants taking control of the TVA like He Who Remains mentioned would happen altering reality - thus Mobius not knowing who Loki is. He wasn't returned to the original TVA timeline we were following.
 

Fhtagn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,615
Well, the series has cribbed a lot from Doctor Who along the way, but I was hoping they wouldn't take the "finale is forty minutes of undramatic exposition" cue from the most recent series.

Ah well.

I can't relate to these takes, I was in suspense the entire time wondering how it would play out.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Really interested in how things will play out with Ravonna next season. She could become the wildcard for Kang's plans.

I was very, very surprised when they revealed she was a Variant of a woman from 2018. I didn't see that coming at all. I really did think she was working for Kang, trying to find out who was running the TVA. Turns out she literally had no idea who Kang was because she was just a Variant like everyone else and there were no Kangs for her to work for anyway because the only Kang left killed all the others. 😂
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,629
That was a decent finale. Probably the most solid show out of the three so far. Was surprised that the last episode was mostly exposition in a single location but it was engaging enough that it didn't really matter. Which I wouldn't have expected from a Marvel show going in when they aren't really known for their long form dialogue scenes.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,132
Erik Voss can rest easy now that Kang didn't turn into another Mephisto lol

Damn, what a way to end the season. Can't wait for Season 2 and Quantumania.
hey, he presented a good argument for why all the Kang speculation isn't 1:1 with Mephisto's

but speaking of Voss, that New Rockstar video is gonna be dope. I hope it trends at #1 whenever it drops!
 

Gaia Lanzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,672
Far From Home takes place after Wandavision. Loki takes place OUT OF TIME, so the ending of Loki's effect of creating the multiverse could've been applied retroactively. Mysterio was BSing, but his reference could be referring to known studies in the MCU regarding the multiverse. Hell, Faux Fury and SWORD seem to "trust" him because he references the multiverse, so SWORD has possibly become aware of the existence of multiple timelines.
 
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poptire

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,981
Good stuff.

I reckon the next phase of Marvel movies will be wide open with possibilities now. Can't wait to see all the Avengers variants who'll be showing up.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,819
I'm kinda disappointed they went for the fan service ending, but it was at least done ok.
Fan service ending would have been Mobius on a jet ski with Gator Loki/ our Loki summoning Milnor while kissing Sylvie. This whole season of tv has been a Wizard of oz homage and the ending was the logical conclusion for our two leads arcs.
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,411
Hot damn that finale was juicy. Super interested in this new "Kang" character. I'm not very familiar with the comics, so he's new to me. I love me some timey wimey exposition dumps though.

Wish we saw more of Richard E Grant's Loki. Also, I hope that variant stuff and the multiverse now being open means we can see other variants of other characters in the future. Would be a cool twist to see some other actors portray some alt-versions of Iron Man, Spider-Man etc.

Anything can happen now, eh?
 

jmood88

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,470
By far the best Marvel show but it's a real bummer that the final episode of a show so focused on characters and their development completely pushes them to the side for the previously unknown master behind it all to explain everything while sitting behind a desk for 15 minutes. This was almost nothing but exposition presented in the most boring possible way and our main characters did almost nothing but sit at listen.

Felt a bit like watching the Wikipedia summary of the last episode instead of an actual last episode.
The show was all about conversation
Was completely underwhelmed by that as a season finale. For the future of the MCU it was pretty cool though.

Yet another villain that goes for this "wohooo I'm crazy" vibe, really same energy as Moriarty from Sherlock and Lex Luthor from BvS. Absolutely dislike this type of villain and really hope that if this guy is to become the next big bad, that is dropped fast.

The fact the multiverse is unleashed is exciting, and I hope this leads to an eventual Secret Wars type of deal.

Now, I saw this with 2 friends that are big MCU fans, but know nothing about the comics. And your appreciation to this ep I believe goes hand in hand with how much of a exposure you had with Kang as a character, because they were left completely indiferent to what happened here.
I don't understand how you could watch a show where there are multiple versions of the same character who act completely differently, and see an explanation from a character about how there are different versions of himself that scared him into creating one timeline where the other versions don't exist, and think that Kang will act exactly the same.
 

Reizzz

Member
Jun 19, 2019
1,813
Hey no shaming theories here - I only point out the people that vehemently shot down the possibility that they would introduce a new character and talked down to anyone that explained why it could happen. There was a lot of that in this thread and it sucked.



I'm not following. Sylvie killed He Who Remains, and it allowed Kang to rise to power, and most likely either he or one of his variants taking control of the TVA like He Who Remains mentioned would happen altering reality - thus Mobius not knowing who Loki is. He wasn't returned to the original TVA timeline we were following.
He returned to the timeline where Kang the conquer is...and apparently Kang the conquer is in Ant-Man 3. So then maybe Ant-Man 3 picks up immediately after Loki I guess. And he doesn't loose.. if he's in loki season 2.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,999
Hm, ok, now I'm not so sure. I guess I had assumed that the TVA existed outside of time and was immune to branching itself.

That was also my perception and I took the different TVA just as a transfomation of it as the result of a new branching resulting into a different Kang at the end of time.

And the impression that TVA is a-temporal is because Mobius and Ravonna always mention how they've seen it all and being together for an eternity. And how time passes differently in TVA.

It's a bit strange, I don't really get the different TVA in a different timeline, sounds like the opposite of what TVA was.
 

MonkeySleeve

Member
Nov 15, 2017
589
Just watched it, loved in although i'm not familiar with comic lore. It's gonna be really interesting to see where this goes.
 

Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,732
I'm wondering if this upcoming conflict with Kang gets resolved before the next Avengers film, or if all this over the next 3-4 years will build and lead to a new Avengers film in 2024/2025 centered around the multiversal war with Kang.

And there's no way Marvel will be able to resist bringing back Downey Jr and Evans.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
I'm wondering if this upcoming conflict with Kang gets resolved before the next Avengers film, or if all this over the next 3-4 years will build and lead to a new Avengers film in 2024/2025 centered around the multiversal war with Kang.

Kang should be the next Thanos. Since there's a practically infinite number of Kang running around, totally different versions of Kang could show up just about anywhere and I don't believe the threat of Kang would ever be stopped until the Fantastic Four show up. I feel like you really need Reed Richards or maybe Doom to put a stop to the guy somehow, y'know?
 

MonkeySleeve

Member
Nov 15, 2017
589
Kinda interesting that a human from the 31th century is gonna be the main villain for next phases. He must be pretty damn powerfull.
 

Alien Bob

Member
Nov 25, 2017
2,466
I didn't want it, but the sonsabishes actually did it and I loved it! I really liked how it was structured in a way where we got the big infodump, but then what it still was really about was the choice that Loki and Sylvie had to make. They made it work, I am a happy camper. Also the characterization and mannerisms were awesome.

For the record, I voted for He Who Remains. It was the easy answer, but also the most correct one!
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
8,977
I'm wondering if this upcoming conflict with Kang gets resolved before the next Avengers film, or if all this over the next 3-4 years will build and lead to a new Avengers film in 2024/2025 centered around the multiversal war with Kang.

And there's no way Marvel will be able to resist bringing back Downey Jr and Evans.

I think whatever happens, Kang's storyline will culminate into becoming Iron Lad.
 

Heynongman!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,933
I didn't want it, but the sonsabishes actually did it and I loved it! I really liked how it was structured in a way where we got the big infodump, but then what it still was really about was the choice that Loki and Sylvie had to make. They made it work, I am a happy camper. Also the characterization and mannerisms were awesome.

For the record, I voted for He Who Remains. It was the easy answer, but also the most correct one!
He Who Remains Gang!

It was great how they managed to resolve the actual story of the season and introduce the new looming threat to the MCU in one episode. I had faith they could do it, and they even blew away my expectations.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,769
That was also my perception and I took the different TVA just as a transfomation of it as the result of a new branching resulting into a different Kang at the end of time.

And the impression that TVA is a-temporal is because Mobius and Ravonna always mention how they've seen it all and being together for an eternity. And how time passes differently in TVA.

It's a bit strange, I don't really get the different TVA in a different timeline, sounds like the opposite of what TVA was.
Yeah I think it's only one TVA which exists outside of time. It has to exist outside of time. And time flows differently there so it wouldn't be surprising if when Loki returned the Conquerer had already taken the place of He Who Remains. It's also not out of the realm of possibility that they altered reality/ their memories. They literally can do anything.

I also think it's funny how wrong I was. I told my friends I thought Miss Minutes was the baddie, and when she jump scared us I felt I was right lol. Oh well, great season and hyped for the rest!
 
Jun 8, 2019
198
I really love the idea of having the heroes facing a reality-saving clash with a super villian, only for it to sink in that this was just one of the assholes and the rest are still coming / taking advantage of their getting rid of a rival.

Or, a bigger fish Kang saving the say against a less ambitious version.

This is a great villian for phase four. Between the core Avengers power vacuum we saw in the other series, and now Kang, we're going to see a ton chaos and competing nodes of power. It's going to be a great ride.
 

Mandos

Member
Nov 27, 2017
30,985
Oh man that was wild, I can't believe they not only did He who remains but made him a Kang. Majors was perfectly unsettling, can't wait to see him in future stuff when he goes straight up ruthless

Also ending was some real "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" energy
Hot damn that finale was juicy. Super interested in this new "Kang" character. I'm not very familiar with the comics, so he's new to me. I love me some timey wimey exposition dumps though.

Wish we saw more of Richard E Grant's Loki. Also, I hope that variant stuff and the multiverse now being open means we can see other variants of other characters in the future. Would be a cool twist to see some other actors portray some alt-versions of Iron Man, Spider-Man etc.

Anything can happen now, eh?
That's What What if is for! Releases in a month or so!