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Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)

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The Unsent

The Unsent

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GreenMamba said:
That's still technically a new character. No matter who the mastermind is they're going to be someone we have no backstory of yet.
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If it's a Loki, instead of Kang, the backstory should be easier for the general audience to grasp and engage with. They can reference or recontextualise famliar scenes, to show what decisions the protagonist Loki may have made, that would have led him to becoming like the other Loki.
 
Heynongman!

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I really dunno how I feel about all these assumptions about "the audience" being thrown around. Audiences are a lot smarter than y'all give them credit for. They don't need familiar faces and hand holding to enjoy something.
 

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Heynongman! said:
I really dunno how I feel about all these assumptions about "the audience" being thrown around. Audiences are a lot smarter than y'all give them credit for. They don't need familiar faces and hand holding to enjoy something.
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It's really just the usual bias. It's "just a TV show" so it can't possibly introduce us to the next Thanos.

Which, y'know, completely ignores all the overt Kang references in the last episode alone and the fact that Loki focuses very much on time travel and controlling the future, two themes that fit Kang perfectly, as well as the fact that Marvel totally teased that the Fantastic Four are coming pretty dang soon and Nathaniel Richards is Kang.

Kang is a pretty complicated character, I think, insofar as he can show up at different points in his own timeline independent of the timeline he appears in, but everyone keeps saying how Loki is so much like Doctor Who and that would really just make Kang so much like River Song.
 
Trup1aya

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TheKeyPit said:
Leading the TVA and creating it, could be two different beings for that.

I think that Miss Minutes ultimately leads the TVA. Being an AI she should be capable of controlling the time keeper puppets.
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Could be. I'm thinking that we might not get an answer to who created it and how.
 
The Unsent

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Heynongman! said:
I really dunno how I feel about all these assumptions about "the audience" being thrown around. Audiences are a lot smarter than y'all give them credit for. They don't need familiar faces and hand holding to enjoy something.
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I admit it can look a bit arrogant to speak for the audience, but I do sincerely believe a lot of them will be dumbfounded like myself, if the climax is focused on introducing a brand new character, instead of collimating familiar story threads from the first series.
 
CaptainKashup

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I've been thinking.
Based on what Classic Loki told us about his story, he's basically a version of our original Loki who survived his encounter with Thanos.
Which means Infinity War happened in his universe too. So if Infinity War happened, that means Endgame most likely happened too. The Time Heist in Endgame is directly responsable for the creation of our new Nexus Loki.
So, if Endgame happened in two different universe... There should be two Nexus Loki.
 
Heynongman!

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The Unsent said:
I admit it can look a bit arrogant to speak for the audience, but I do sincerely believe a lot of them will be dumbfounded like myself, if the climax is focused on introducing a brand new character, instead of collimating familiar story threads from the first series.
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That's the thing though, I don't think they'll be dumbfounded if it's handled well. You can totally pull this off with the right creative team, and this team so far hasn't let me down.
 
falcondoc

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CaptainKashup said:
I've been thinking.
Based on what Classic Loki told us about his story, he's basically a version of our original Loki who survived his encounter with Thanos.
Which means Infinity War happened in his universe too. So if Infinity War happened, that means Endgame most likely happened too. The Time Heist in Endgame is directly responsable for the creation of our new Nexus Loki.
So, if Endgame happened in two different universe... There should be two Nexus Loki.
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No, because our Loki (main character) was never supposed to happen - thus the TVA. He's unique.
 
The Unsent

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Heynongman! said:
That's the thing though, I don't think they'll be dumbfounded if it's handled well. You can totally pull this off with the right creative team, and this team so far hasn't let me down.
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Perhaps technically they can present Kang's backstory or motivation well, but I rather series 1's end focus on Loki and Sylvie, those two leads are the characters I've become invested for the last 5 weeks, and I would find it frustating for the writers to stifle the momentum of their stories, and shift the focus to establishing a unfamiliar character. That's what I meant by 'to grasp' if it sounded a bit belitting to viewers' attention spans.
 
Trup1aya

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The Unsent said:
Perhaps technically they can present Kang's backstory or motivation well, but I rather series 1's end focus on Loki and Sylvie, those two leads are the characters I've become invested for the last 5 weeks, and I would find it frustating for the writers to stifle the momentum of their stories, and shift the focus to establishing a unfamiliar character. That's what I meant by 'to grasp' if it sounded a bit belitting to viewers' attention spans.
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If a new character is introduced, I'm sure his/her backstory & motivation would take a seat in favor of resolving Loki & Silvie conflicts. The "who, why and how" of TVA leadership is less important to this story than the challenges the agency imposed on the Lokies.
 
mreddie

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I'm convinced Hems doing Ragnarok made him love doing Thor. I just hope he has more RUSH in him, watch him be in Knives Out 3.
 
Pai Pai Master

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The Unsent said:
Perhaps technically they can present Kang's backstory or motivation well, but I rather series 1's end focus on Loki and Sylvie, those two leads are the characters I've become invested for the last 5 weeks, and I would find it frustating for the writers to stifle the momentum of their stories, and shift the focus to establishing a unfamiliar character. That's what I meant by 'to grasp' if it sounded a bit belitting to viewers' attention spans.
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They don't even need to get into his backstory here. They just need to answer the who and the why of the TVA and Loki & Sylvie can still get the spotlight.

If it's Immortus he and Loki will have a very heated debate about free will and preordained destinies and all the things Loki has learned in his journey to the end of time, and then Sylvie will take the opportunity to stop whatever Immortus is doing and he'll warn them about the dangerous future they just opened the door to. We don't really need a full explanation of the Nathaniel Richards - Kang The Conqueror - Immortus character breakdown here.

Bonus points if Sylvie gets to enchant Immortus momentarily and be exposed to all his memories as Kang as that's something they can continue to revisit instead of having to do a big lore dump in the episode.

There are some quick and easy ways they can start building up this threat without it taking much time away from the stars of the show.
 
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Castamere

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I think the end result won't be betrayal, but Loki becoming the new time master, and Sylvie coming into our world. I think he'll scarfice himself by becoming the new time master, and give her a new life in our timeline as a result.
 
The Artisan

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Another thing about Loki that I have been curious about. When inside the TVA dimension, magical powers don't work even within beings. That's why Loki and Sylvie can't use magic. But does being in this dimension also take away their superhuman strength? In The Avengers, Loki fought Cap and while Cap was able to deal a little bit of damage, he was clearly no match for Loki. This made me think he has superhuman strength comparable to Thor's (even though Thor is also obviously stronger). But if all of the people working for the TVA were once just humans, shouldn't Loki and Sylvie be able to subdue them with their own brute strength? Or does that realm take away ALL superpowers?
 

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The Artisan said:
Another thing about Loki that I have been curious about. When inside the TVA dimension, magical powers don't work even within beings. That's why Loki and Sylvie can't use magic. But does being in this dimension also take away their superhuman strength? In The Avengers, Loki fought Cap and while Cap was able to deal a little bit of damage, he was clearly no match for Loki. This made me think he has superhuman strength comparable to Thor's (even though Thor is also obviously stronger). But if all of the people working for the TVA were once just humans, shouldn't Loki and Sylvie be able to subdue them with their own brute strength? Or does that realm take away ALL superpowers?
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I believe magic doesn't work there because magic in the MCU draws upon energies from certain places - Eldritch magic draws upon energies from other dimensions and Asgardian magic presumably draws upon energies from Asgard itself - but the TVA is presumably sealed off from all that. They probably couldn't stop Wanda using her magic, though, because she doesn't draw upon any external energies. All that Chaos Magic is inside her, so she'd probably still be fine even within the TVA's walls.

As for the physical abilities, the TVA security forces are definitely amped to a superhuman degree. Mobius has already mentioned how they've dealt with Titans and vampires, so they must be extraordinarily strong to take down folks like Thanos on a consistent basis. That's reinforced by the way the TVA security is still extremely powerful even outside of the TVA itself, when visiting other worlds where Lokis magic actually works.
 
Pai Pai Master

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if magic doesn't work in the TVA Loki should be a Frost Giant the whole time he's inside the building :3

(i know, that'd be stupid and expensive to do)

The Artisan said:
Another thing about Loki that I have been curious about. When inside the TVA dimension, magical powers don't work even within beings. That's why Loki and Sylvie can't use magic. But does being in this dimension also take away their superhuman strength? In The Avengers, Loki fought Cap and while Cap was able to deal a little bit of damage, he was clearly no match for Loki. This made me think he has superhuman strength comparable to Thor's (even though Thor is also obviously stronger). But if all of the people working for the TVA were once just humans, shouldn't Loki and Sylvie be able to subdue them with their own brute strength? Or does that realm take away ALL superpowers?
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Pretty sure he's just strong because he's a Frost Giant (or in Thor's case an Asgardian), it's not really magic it's just the physical attributes of their species.

but that strength has been kinda inconsistently portrayed in this series, though we're not sure if the soldiers on Lamentis had superhuman strength too
 
Trup1aya

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Pai Pai Master said:
Agreed lol I am 150% emotionally invested in these two being able to find some happiness and companionship
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To prepare my emotions, I've come up with some thematically appropriate ways to have either one attempt to betray the other in the end. It could be great story telling. But I'll HATE it.
 
Trup1aya

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The Artisan said:
Another thing about Loki that I have been curious about. When inside the TVA dimension, magical powers don't work even within beings. That's why Loki and Sylvie can't use magic. But does being in this dimension also take away their superhuman strength? In The Avengers, Loki fought Cap and while Cap was able to deal a little bit of damage, he was clearly no match for Loki. This made me think he has superhuman strength comparable to Thor's (even though Thor is also obviously stronger). But if all of the people working for the TVA were once just humans, shouldn't Loki and Sylvie be able to subdue them with their own brute strength? Or does that realm take away ALL superpowers?
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Yeah, I figure superstregth is a power that gets nerfed at the TVA.

I had to tell myself that the people on Lamentis are superhuman, that's the only way to explain Sylvie and Loki struggling with them.

But then there's Loki getting his ass whooped by the people Sylvie was enchanting. I had to tell myself that her magic gave them super strength- I guess sorta like how Agatha gave Boner superpowers.

Comic book powerlevel inconsistencies...
 
cognizant

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Was reading Uncanny Avengers annual #1 today, and I felt attacked.

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Heynongman!

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Y'all can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall Loki ever being shown as having super strength in the MCU. Like has he ever shown to be super strong physically?
 
The Artisan

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Heynongman!

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The Artisan

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Heynongman! said:
Eh I wouldn't call this super strength at all. I think he's about level with cap in this clip. Which I guess is above natural human but like well below Thor
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How do you figure he is level with Cap? Cap was able to get one hit on Loki, and every other hit barely made a scratch. But Loki was tossing Cap around like a ragdoll.
 
Heynongman!

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MadLaughter said:
If he can knock down thor or block a hit from Thor, he has super strength.

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Yeah that's super strength. Weirdly inconsistent lol
The Artisan said:
How do you figure he is level with Cap? Cap was able to get one hit on Loki, and every other hit barely made a scratch. But Loki was tossing Cap around like a ragdoll.
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Cap not being able to get a hit in has more to do with Loki being extremely agile, if cap got his hands on him in this clip he'd also be able to toss him around. The other clip above he's way stronger, like physically stronger not like "can x win against y" stronger
 
The Artisan

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Heynongman! said:
Yeah that's super strength. Weirdly inconsistent lol

Cap not being able to get a hit in has more to do with Loki being extremely agile, if cap got his hands on him in this clip he'd also be able to toss him around. The other clip above he's way stronger, like physically stronger not like "can x win against y" stronger
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No, Cap is able to land multiple hits on Loki, but the hits do not phase him at all. The one time that Cap punched Loki made him step back, but for the rest of the fight, Loki seemingly - effortlessly was knocking Cap around. Natasha even said he's all over the place. Cap didn't even knock Loki off his feet, except with the vibranium shield.
 
Yasuke

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Y'all just forget Loki is super strong because he doesn't typically fight that way.

He's a frost giant, for Odin's sake.
 
jph139

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The fact he was thrown around by the Hulk and wasn't turned into a red (or blue?) smear on the floor is all the evidence you need.

I mean, super durability and super strength don't always line up 1:1, but there's enough of a correlation that you can make assumptions.
 
Nisaba

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...and people continue to seriously underestimate Loki just because he doesn't usually fight in big brawls or what have you

reminds me of the discussions when episode 3 came out where lots of people seriously thought Loki had to have been using a time stone to lift that building instead of...you know....his canon telekinesis abilities (which he also showed he could do in Thor 2) >.>
 
Wingfan19

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Every Asgardian is stronger than Cap. Even in the AoS episode where they track down an Asgardian living on Earth (was it Peter MacNicol?) he was shown to have super human strength and tossed around the SHIELD agents like nothing.
 
viral

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Veelk said:
it's hiei's demon form all over again
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That's actually pretty similar, yeah. I was always excepting him to go demon form in tough fights but it never happened lol.

Pai Pai Master said:
He didn't have ice powers but the Frost Giants touching him doesnt give him frostbite instantly like it does to Asgardians

He turns blue after Thanos kills him. That's like the only time Odin's enchantment on him is lifted IIRC
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I didn't remember him turning blue after dying, but he definitely turned blue on purpose in Thor multiple times. I also remember him freezing Heimdall.
 
Pai Pai Master

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viral said:
I didn't remember him turning blue after dying, but he definitely turned blue on purpose in Thor multiple times. I also remember him freezing Heimdall.
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He used the Casket of Ancient Winters for that, wasn't his own power

Maybe he has limited frost giant abilities but he hasnt ever displayed that personally outside his resistance to their frozen touch
 
BossAttack

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Pai Pai Master said:
He didn't have ice powers but the Frost Giants touching him doesnt give him frostbite instantly like it does to Asgardians

He turns blue after Thanos kills him. That's like the only time Odin's enchantment on him is lifted IIRC
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No, he doesn't. In fact it's one of the complaints and that led people to speculate he wasn't dead.

The fact is, Marvel is really trying to pretend that Loki being a Frost Giant doesn't exist. Isn't it interesting that none of the Loki variants looked like an ice giant but we do get one that is a crocodile? In Thor, it was shown that he has skin like an ice giant. But, he appears human looking unless exposed to extreme cold. But again, Marvel has subsequently ignored that in all future films as well as the existence of Jotunheim. I think he briefly mentions Jotunheim when announcing his lineage to Thanos before trying to kill him, but that was the first time in a long time it was ever mentioned.
 
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