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Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
- Entertainment Comics OT
Yep because being bisexual means you can't possibly be in a straight relationship
What a sucka
And he manages to reduce Sylvie's character to "Hot Blonde Chick", so there's quite a bit of sexism in there too
Dr. Strange's statement about it being the only way has everything to do with everything for the foreseeable future. We do not know exactly how far into the future he has seen, so until we reach a point where he is dead or confirms that he has not seen what's coming, we have to assume that all the events of the movies and series are required and predestined, including time travel.
I have spoken very little on this subject previously
I still think it could go either way, it very well could all be lokis
And I was never on team Mephisto
But to pretend like Kang is as unfounded as Mephisto is ridiculous
Kang's girlfriend is a main character in the show as the defacto leader of the TVA.
Alioth is a defeated rival of Kang barred from entering Kang's kingdom.
Kang's name literally appears in the last episode (as his alias Qeng).
And Kang is already confirmed and casted for the upcoming MCU.
It's not a sure thing, but it's surely not a stretch to imagine at this point. There are very obvious and intentional references to Kang happening. Whether that's for the purpose of this season's story, or instead hinting at upcoming MCU content, will be revealed next week!
I guess I'm just not sure what you mean when you say 2014 Thanos leaving was supposed to happen. That's not what happens in the history of the MCU. In 2014, Thanos ordered Ronan to find the power stone for him. He doesn't find footage of the future from a duplicate Nebula, and he doesn't time travel. These things happened in a branched reality created by the Avengers.
The last part of your post makes sense, but it only makes sense because the TVA is insidious and can't be trusted themselves. In my opinion, 2014 Thanos fits their definition of being a variant, but the highest authority in the TVA must have their own agenda and that is why only 2012 Loki, not 2014 Thanos or any other character whose actions have changed in Endgame's time traveling plot threads, was accused of being a variant.
Duh.
That's what we've been trying to tell you for a page or two now.
What I meant was that Strange has nothing to do with the TVA and their mission/cause. I only meant to say that by their logic of arresting Loki in 2012, Thanos should have been guilty of crimes against the sacred timeline as well. Distrusting the TVA by episode 4 is the only thing that makes sense to me out of this whole convoluted plot, to be honest. And I don't think it's ever going to be brought up in the show, it's only a conclusion drawn from watching and discussing it.
And if you want to go behind the scenes: Waldron and the writer for Ant-Man 3 are tightly knit on both of these projects.
Okay well you could have been a little nicer about it. This still doesn't take away from my criticisms of the show since the show itself doesn't fully address some of these things, it's only come about from the audience speculating and discussing it.
Sure, but What I'm saying is these aren't inconsistencies- they are just stories that haven't been told.
TVAs feelings about 2014 Thanos are up in the air. Despite the size of the deviation, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't want to prune it. Nor would I be surprised if they did prune it. The only consistency is that the TVA acts to forward its own goals rather on a morality system.
Like it could be that the TVA wanted Steve to go back to Peggy. Or they could be indifferent because the deviation doesn't disrupt their goal. Or maybe it isn't a deviation at all, and every iteration of Peggy marries a Steve from the future. The answer to this question is immaterial to the story in "Loki" and lack of an answer isn't a flaw in the MCU logic.
The thing about this criticism is, that the TVA has been clearly lying and been lied to by someone behind the curtain with at this point unknown intentions. What you are suggesting is that the big villain should hold a PowerPoint presentation at the beginning of a show where he lines out what and how he wants to accomplish, so that things aren't illogical to you.
As I see it, it is pretty clear that their nexus event detection machine has some weird algorithms on purpose. Why would Loki almost kissing Silvie on a planet that's about to go, create one of the biggest nexus events Mobius has ever witnessed? This question is for us, the viewers to ask ourselves. To make us curious and engaged, trying to figure out what's up.
But when you arrive at "the producers didn't think that one through cause nobody talked about 2014 thanos leaving his timeline" you just shot past everything the show was trying to tell you straight to the moon. That's why someone may get frustrated at your arguing or thinks you are a troll.
Yep, exactly. People want to call them plot holes but in reality its just unimportant minutiae in regards to the story being told. Of course that can be a convenience in the storytelling or it could be by design. The likely outcome is those "inconsistencies" people point to just don't matter to the man behind the TVA
Yes, TVA clearly has their own agenda and don't operate fairly. This is made clear in the first episode when they gave the Avengers a pass despite causing some huge time anomalies and arrested Loki for simply escaping like he always does.
But also they didn't mention Thanos as a variant, or any other characters from Endgame because this show isn't about those characters.
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It didn't come about from speculating or discussing for me. Hell, I knew it was the case BEFORE Loki even aired precisely because of Dr. Strange's actions. That was only confirmed further with a SINGLE LINE in episode 1.
Strange's personal time-traveling escapades in Infinity War essentially set up the ultimate hand-waving potential...predestination. While this made for an interesting premise for the two movies in that they had to lose to win, I'll admit that it's also made the future of the MCU potentially a little too easy to hand-wave away plot issues, especially as they relate to time travel and/or the multiverse. At least with Loki so far, they've also factored in the TVA's plotting as well, so the predestination in this case feels like part of a conspiracy rather than just entirely "handwavium".
Waldron also co-wrote Strange 2 did he not?
Immortus strikes me as someone who could show up there, if he's not in this.
I jumped in my seat as soon as I saw that. Like why else would we see that part of Egypt got pruned?
Immortus strikes me as someone who could show up there, if he's not in this.
I jumped in my seat as soon as I saw that. Like why else would we see that part of Egypt got pruned?
inb4 it was Mojo all along and the Sacred Timeline is just the most entertaining series of events for him to sell on his multiversal TV show. 🤔
Because that Thanos from 2014 time jumped into a timeline where he had already done everything leading up to Endgame. Just like Hulk explained that you can't go to the past and change your future because the past becomes your present... The same rules would likely apply going forward in time as well. Him jumping from 2014 before he did everything he was supposed to didn't erase those things in Endgame because he went to a timeline where they already did.
TVA probably is ok with that because he ended up getting snapped anyway and the universe was restored. They didn't need to prune him because the snap too care of him and his entire army.
Which leads me to believe even more that it's a king loki behind all of this, wanting to get revenge on Thanos for betraying him. And every loki that steps out of line not doing things according to the plan would be considered a huge threat to his control. Because the best person to beat a loki is another loki.
Everything else could be white noise for the TVA to work on so they don't figure things out (people being late for work, etc). Hopefully we get some answers in the finale but I'm guessing there will be many more things unanswered.
Since this show takes place right after the events of the Avengers, where Loki is a villain with evil intentions, I was siding with the TVA in the beginning of the show. It wasn't until after episode 4 that I felt there was enough content about them to side with Loki and Sylvie instead of them.
As far as 2014 Thanos and his actions go, I brought this up to use the TVA's own logic against them. Maybe Pai Pai Master is right and it will all come together in the conclusion of the series but up until now, if the show relies on the audience making conclusions then it is still a point against the show in my opinion. Most of the reactions to the show in this thread have been largely positive. I'm probably in the minority of being very critical of it, but that doesn't mean others should feel the need to make insults because of it. At the end of the day it is a tv show, and we're watching it because we're fans of the MCU. It shouldn't be taken so seriously to the point where people should start to insult one another.
I interpreted the dialogue in the first episode to mean that the Avengers were meant to time travel but that other characters in those timelines were not to deviate from their paths. A variant isn't supposed to equate to a time traveler, right?
This show isn't about Thanos but the show's premise is about changing your future. So I think it's natural for some people to wonder why the TVA didn't react the same way to him as they did to Loki.
You're saying from episode 1 you realized 2014 Thanos wouldn't be held accountable the same way 2012 Loki was because Ravonna said "The Avengers did what they were supposed to do"? Strange may have seen Loki escape with the tesseract in 2012 and seen Thanos travel to 2023, but that has nothing to do with the TVA. With the concept of "variants" introduced from the beginning and Loki still being portrayed as a villain at that time, I think it is natural to wonder why the TVA is operating a certain and specific way.
Any discussion using the TVA's stated version of how things work is going to be flawed. They're unreliable. Hence I prefer not to think about the timeline rules too much. They clearly aren't meant to be the focus of the story anyway. Loki and Sylvie vs the Establishment is the story, with Loki growing along the way.
Time travel almost never makes 100% sense in fiction, and I'm willing to ignore apparent contradictions as incomplete information or simply movie logic. Back to the Future time travel makes about zero sense but it's a great movie.
The flip side of this is asserting that it's all elegant and fully explained is also a flawed POV. There are apparent contradictions. They are easily ignored or we can make up explanations for them, or we can simply ignore them as they aren't the focus of the story in the first place.
Time travel almost never makes 100% sense in fiction, and I'm willing to ignore apparent contradictions as incomplete information or simply movie logic. Back to the Future time travel makes about zero sense but it's a great movie.
The flip side of this is asserting that it's all elegant and fully explained is also a flawed POV. There are apparent contradictions. They are easily ignored or we can make up explanations for them, or we can simply ignore them as they aren't the focus of the story in the first place.
I think you are not wrong in your criticisms, but if you were looking for tight, logical time travel fiction (which is rare to begin with) I would have thought that Endgame, or the first couple episodes, would have tipped you off that you wouldn't be getting that.
Yes, that is the reason why 2014 Thanos makes the time jump, but his actions changed the course of history in his timeline. Just like Loki's actions in 2012. That is what prompted the TVA to arrest Loki. There won't be Guardians Vol. 2, there won't be an Infinity War. So a lot of things will go a different way in the 2014 timeline with Thanos, his army, and Gamora gone.
I wasn't thinking too much about who the final villain is going to be, but this theory of a king Loki that hates Thanos does sound plausible the more thought that I put into it.
Well I think Endgame presented time travel fiction that worked well enough for the story that was being told. Ultimately now what I'm realizing is that a lot of my unanswered questions is all comes down to the TVA being in wrong moral ground. I didn't distrust them in the first episode because I was already distrusting Loki, who was the main villain of the first Avengers film where this show kicks off.
I don't think we know this for sure, but considering he's BOASTFUL Loki, I'm gonna trust what he says even less than I trust the other Lokis.
I've been thinking about it all day, and I'm convinced the Big Bad is going to be Classic Loki(swerve, not dead!) with Kang as the post credit teaser.
Who better for the final villain than CLASSIC fucking Loki? It's right there in the name!
Who better for the final villain than CLASSIC fucking Loki? It's right there in the name!
I'd really hate that because Old Loki's big sacrifice moment was spurred by our Loki's character arc culminating and him convincing another Loki to help do the right thing, that he could still matter and not just be the "God of Outcasts"
I just don't see why Old Loki, if he is behind the TVA, would help defeat Alioth and open the way to (what appears to be) Castle Limbo/Tenebrae
After Black Widow, Shang-Chi, and Eternals, phase 4 movies:
Spider-Man
Doctor Strange
Thor
Black Panther
Marvels
Ant-Man
Guardians
The first two are already confirmed as having multi-verse shenanigans. Maybe Thor does too with Jane as Thor? Ant-Man definitely has it.
So a lot of Phase 4 has to do with the multiverse, and it's all probably a result from what happens in next week's episode.
So, if I were to write this... I'd definitely set up Kang as the main villain, keeping the one timeline that allows him to become the Conqueror. But Loki messes things up. And all the Phase 4 movies are the heroes trying to fix their nexus events. But in doing so, they're actually helping Kang remain Conqueror. And Kang now sees them as a threat to his rule.
Spider-Man
Doctor Strange
Thor
Black Panther
Marvels
Ant-Man
Guardians
The first two are already confirmed as having multi-verse shenanigans. Maybe Thor does too with Jane as Thor? Ant-Man definitely has it.
So a lot of Phase 4 has to do with the multiverse, and it's all probably a result from what happens in next week's episode.
So, if I were to write this... I'd definitely set up Kang as the main villain, keeping the one timeline that allows him to become the Conqueror. But Loki messes things up. And all the Phase 4 movies are the heroes trying to fix their nexus events. But in doing so, they're actually helping Kang remain Conqueror. And Kang now sees them as a threat to his rule.
Someone that is boastful, is just a bragger not necessarily a liar though. Just someone that enjoys telling their own stories. I don't think we have any reason to think he was lying about that but it's certainly possible.
Anyone else not buy why the other Lokis, the kid, and old classic Loki, out of nowhere say "this is our home we are staying"?
You are in some weird purgatory with a monster constantly chasing you, away from your world. And you want to stay? Felt more like something they just did to fit the plot rather than it making any sense.
Also, how did Sylvie have a time-traveling pad with her in the void?
You are in some weird purgatory with a monster constantly chasing you, away from your world. And you want to stay? Felt more like something they just did to fit the plot rather than it making any sense.
Also, how did Sylvie have a time-traveling pad with her in the void?
The entire premise behind the TVAs villainy is that they are a fascist organization that has forcibly assumed the mantle of deciding what is "meant to happen". And they don't operate on altruism or on an objective basis, but for some unknown ultimate goal, that is likely self serving.
So yes, in the eyes of the TVA, the Avengers were "meant to time travel" and Loki variant "wasn't meant to escape". And Thanos was "meant to" snap half of all life. And Hulk was "meant to" unsnap all life. And 2014 Thanos was "meant to" leave his reality and get snapped the prime timeline. But why does the TVA get to decide what is "meant to happen"? This question is the entirety of Loki and Sylvie's motivation.
We can assume why the TVA didn't react to Thanos the same way- because they have their own agenda and allowing his deviation served their ultimate goal. Just like the TVA didn't react to the Avengers the same way. Hell, the Avengers are to blame for Loki escaping, why aren't they on trial? TVA allows things to happen if they WANT them to happen. It's not based on right/wrong, fairness, or impartiality. Even without them explicitly mentioning Thanos, this aspect of the TVAs behavior is clear.
PS, everyone is a variant. For example, Steve Rogers interacted with a variant of himself when he traveled through time- and caused this version himself to have a different experience (losing a fight to his future self) after stopping the invasion.
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She took int from the judge and had it on her when she was pruned.
Oh right. I figured it would get destroyed if you are pruned but I guess not.
couldn't she have just pickpocketed Ravonna's?
Understood. The question of why 2014 Thanos was "meant to leave" wasn't ever a question in-universe, only a question for audience members like myself. The rest of of what you're saying makes sense as well and I think they're saving a little more background on the TVA (as well as who really is behind it all) for the finale.
I mean, pruning by definition we now know does not destroy.
You could have it configured to not prune TVA tech as a precaution, but undoubtedly TVA tech would be involved in branches at some point and it would become variants that need to be pruned as well.
I've said it before and I will say it again, I pray someone was filming the moment when he first saw that costume. I desperately want to see his reaction.
As far as Easter Eggs, I'm really surprised that Marvel didn't take this chance to shove a few artifacts from the non-cannon shows into the Void....have little stuff from Cloak and Dagger and The Runaways or even AoS or the Netflix shows. Just as a nod to them and just say 'alternate timeline shenanigans'.
Classic Loki is incredibly powerful. Powerful enough to fake Alioth entirely if he wanted to. Certainly powerful enough to control him and lead the others to believe they had won. He also telegraphed faking his own death with the Thanos story.
Why does he want these two variant's and why is he messing with them like this? Hell if I know, beyond Loki wanting to be the best Loki, and what is more Loki than manipulating and defeating all other Loki's. That's a pretty baller Loki move, now that I think about it.
My money is on Classic Loki. He's portrayed by a known actor, and he's called Classic Loki. What's more classic than being the bad guy?
I think the show expected viewers to question the idea of predetermination - to oppose the idea that what is meant to happen, should happen, and instead root a universe of free will.
The illogically uneven scales of justice were on display at Loki's trial. He didn't know about the outcome of Endgame, but he accurately pointed out that the Avengers (and by extension, Thanos) should be considered time criminals. But those empower to maintain order can't do so impartially.
Loki's arc begins with himself failing to subject humanity to his will. Then he aims to takeover the TVAs roll as lord of predetermination, while scoffing at the idea that he's been subject to predetermination. A massive hypocrit. But he meets Silvie who says "the universe wants to break free, so it manifests chaos, like me being born the goddess of mischief" and then he realizes he can grow beyond the person he was intended to be.
The takeaway is supposed to be that whats "meant to be" isn't inherently right or good and that people shouldn't be limited to what others "meant for" them, but rather they should be free to choose their own destiny.
I do enjoy him getting hammered by people for those views.
That's what ended up sticking with me by the latter half of the show, but as I said I was initially hesitant to side with Loki in the beginning of the show because back then he was hot off the events of The Avengers, full on villain with no remorse. I wonder how the TVA's role in the comics compares to the MCU version. I feel like the comics' version didn't have as big of a role to play between multiverses, but I could be dead wrong about that.
She swiped it and stuck it into her back pocket before she pruned herself.
I think you're barking up the right tree with this idea. Introducing the antagonist in the 5th episode, giving us a glimpse into his personality and worldview, results in less exposition required in the finale. Why else spend valuable screen time on Classic Loki's story of how he ended up in limbo? What purpose did that scene serve? What's its narrative function?
It's essentially exposition that will aid us in understanding his antagonistic goals in the last episode without slamming the breaks on the finale's momentum. Besides, Loki faking his death is like breathing to him. "I cast a projection of myself so real even the mad Titan believed it." (and many viewers believed you died this episode...) "I removed myself from the equation" (and...time itself?). Is his story half truths and lies? Classic Loki indeed.
Even if the big bad doesn't end up being the Loki we saw die, I think it's a good suggestion that Richard E Grant may be portraying the villain.
No, it's a pretty awful and unsatisfying suggestion honestly. It was so refreshing and appropriate for the series arc to see a far future Loki who was beyond done with the whole "betray everyone" shtick, and that sacrifice scene was golden.
Will be really disappointed if he's the villain.