Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)

[Trup1aya]

Early on in the show when one or two episodes premiered, the conversations I had in this thread (something you mentioned again just now which I have bolded) had people saying that the 2012 timeline that Tony, Scott, Steve, and Bruce created by traveling there was pruned/reset after the TVA caught Loki in the desert. I found that problematic for two reasons. #1, if pruning/resetting the timeline means erasing it from existence, then it would have been impossible for Steve to travel back there a second time to return the time stone and Loki's scepter. #2, this would also mean that the Ancient One was right in her instinct not to trust Bruce, since her reality was doomed to become nothingness

edit: so in short, I disagree that the logic established in Endgame are consistent with this show. we never even see any of the alternate timelines again but enough has changed in them that I wouldn't call them minor deviations either, whether or not the Avengers intended for them to happen.

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I don't think it means that at all.

Steve returned the timestone and septor, to points immediately after they were taken. So the agreement with the Ancient One was upheld.

The TVA came a short while later and pruned the timeline because loki escaped- which would prevent key events on the timeline from occurring. It had nothing to do with Bruce not upholding his end of the bargain. All of the stones removed from this particular universe were returned. The Ancient One keeping the time stone would not have saved the reality from the TVA. It would have just doomed (atleast) 2 timelines instead of one- assuming Loki still escape and the gang never got their hands on a timestone.

Bottom line is, TVA has pruned countless realities, and much of the time it has nothing to do with Avengers or Infinity stones. That means there of probably countless examples of heroes doing what they need to do in order to save their reality only to have the TVA wipe it out anyway because they dont like how some random individual is proceeding through life.

Also what you or I would call minor/major deviations is irrelevant. It boils down to what the TVA deems to be a problematic deviation for what whatever their ultimate goal is. It's clear they allow some massive deviations in some instances, and act on minor deviations in other instances. They aren't exactly a fair or impartial organization.

Also in Endgame, didn't the Ancient One say that branches only happen when an Infinity Stone is involved? Even if the TVA is lying, that's clearly not the case.

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No she said permanently removing a stone would send a branch reality on a dark path.

 

[The Unsent]

I don't know, having it be someone who views Loki as a minor pest beneath him to be squashed whenever threatened doesn't need much background. Someone who's not a Loki who's seeking their own purpose doesn't need much. Plus season 2

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It's an ongoing season mystery so I think it needs to be someone or something that pulls the rugs from beneath their feet, at least. Not just a monster they've just encountered.

 

[Android]

The chamber "king Loki" is in looks quite different from what is presumably the castle interior. It looks like a throne on Asgard, and the people in the frame look like Asgardians. We've already gone back there for a time loop. I expect we'll go back again.

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"Join me and I'll give you everything you've ever wanted."
And yes that was Asgard and looks nothing like the castle shots we've seen so far. It cold, dark and walls have purple cracks everywhere.

I don't know, having it be someone who views Loki as a minor pest beneath him to be squashed whenever threatened doesn't need much background. Someone who's not a Loki who's seeking their own purpose doesn't need much. Plus season 2

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Ya and as King Loki I wouldnt leave a herd of Loki's living right outside my castle knowing and believing only a Loki could defeat him... any one of them or a future one could do it.

It's an ongoing season mystery so I think it needs to be someone or something that pulls the rugs from beneath their feet, at least. Not just a monster they've just encountered.

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That all changes if this is episode 6 of 12 or 6 of 18. If thats true we are barely getting started and time is on our side with a end of season villan reveal.(pun intened)

 

[The Unsent]

Not saying it would be my preferred outcome, but with under 50 minutes left for revealing the true villain and his motivations, fighting him, taking a look at Mobius and the TVA and some form of Epiloge, a big reveal of someone unknown to the general audience is probably not gonna happen and a random evil Loki variant would anticlimactic.

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Not so much random Loki, but the apex Loki, the empitome of who he could be, well until their self-belief is proven wrong and then is defeated.

 

[The Artisan]

I don't think it means that at all.

Steve returned the timestone and septor, to points immediately after they were taken. So the agreement with the Ancient One was upheld.

The TVA came a short while later and pruned the timeline because loki escaped- which would prevent key events on the timeline from occurring. It had nothing to do with Bruce not upholding his end of the bargain. All of the stones removed from this particular universe were returned. The Ancient One keeping the time stone would not have saved the reality from the TVA. It would have just doomed (atleast) 2 timelines instead of one- assuming Loki still escape and the gang never got their hands on a timestone.

Bottom line is, TVA has pruned countless realities, and much of the time it has nothing to do with infinity stones.

Also what you or I would call minor/major deviations is irrelevant. It boils down to what the TVA deems to be a problematic deviation for what whatever their ultimate goal is. It's clear they allow some massive deviations in some instances, and act on minor deviations in other instances. They aren't exactly a fair or impartial organization.

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So this is what I mean with the show being too exposition-heavy. The things that you are saying that occurred in this story, those are really important things. They aren't things that should only be decided via conversations with other audience members, they are things that should have been delineated the show itself. You, an audience member, are saying that Steve returned the stone in its rightful place in the rightful time. Me, another audience member, never having seen the actions being done, am calling into question the validity of it all. If this has to be explained from person to person with expositional dialogue as the only thing the show has to offer, then the show isn't doing a good job of telling its story.

In the 2014 timeline, Thanos left. Whether or not the TVA thinks it is a "problematic deviation", it is a significant change to the timeline. I actually made a thread about this a few years ago pondering this exact thing.

Is the Marvel Cinematic Universe now the Marvel Cinematic Multiverse?

Something that occurred to me during the events of Endgame, in that several of the Avengers during the time travel sequence go in pairs into the past. And this is like 2 or 3 pairs of characters which means at least 2 to 3 new universes they created just by being there. The things that happened...

www.resetera.com

 

[RadzPrower]

then the show isn't doing a good job of telling its story.

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I think too many people these days need everything spoon fed to them.

I don't know if it's a case of people are unable/unwilling to fill in the gaps for themselves based on context clues or if it's just a product of fans' obsession with lore and a need for concrete answers. In my opinion, leaving just enough wiggle room in a story for discussion is actually a good thing. We don't have to know everything and giving us the opportunity to fill in those blanks both in terms of hypothesizing future plots or just filling in blanks that will never be addressed directly allows for a healthy conversation oriented community. It allows for discussions that are more than simple citations of lore bits.

It gives room for imagination.

 

[The Artisan]

I think too many people these days need everything spoon fed to them.

I don't know if it's a case of people are unable/unwilling to fill in the gaps for themselves based on context clues or if it's just a product of fans' obsession with lore and a need for concrete answers. In my opinion, leaving just enough wiggle room in a story for discussion is actually a good thing. We don't have to know everything and giving us the opportunity to fill in those blanks both in terms of hypothesizing future plots or just filling in blanks that will never be addressed directly allows for a healthy conversation oriented community. It allows for discussions that are more than simple citations of lore bits.

It gives room for imagination.

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if you want to call it being spoon fed, then that's you. to me, Steve returning the stones to their timelines is an important plot point. having those timelines be in danger of erased is also an important plot point. this show is all about different timelines and how actions can affect them. I don't want to sit and imagine then make up my own conclusion.

 

[Heynongman!]

I think too many people these days need everything spoon fed to them.

I don't know if it's a case of people are unable/unwilling to fill in the gaps for themselves based on context clues or if it's just a product of fans' obsession with lore and a need for concrete answers. In my opinion, leaving just enough wiggle room in a story for discussion is actually a good thing. We don't have to know everything and giving us the opportunity to fill in those blanks both in terms of hypothesizing future plots or just filling in blanks that will never be addressed directly allows for a healthy conversation oriented community. It allows for discussions that are more than simple citations of lore bits.

It gives room for imagination.

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I wouldn't go as harsh as to say people want to be spoon fed, but there does seem to be a disconnect between people that are ok with the most certainly intentional gaps in logic, and the people that really really need answers for these things. Like I can comfortably fill these gaps in without second thought so it is hard for me to understand where some people might come off as confused, but I think that's just a difference in how we all operate as people I guess.

This timeline stuff is all intentionally vague - they do it like this in the comics as well - leave stuff vague as hell so that you can mold it to fit the story you're trying to tell. That's going to rub some folks the wrong way, but personally it's my preferred way of handling dumb shit like Time Travel. Let the writers go wild with it that's what I say.

 

[HeySeuss]

Round and round we go.

There's nothing saying the Ancient One knew about the TVA and how they prune people and nexus points. The Ancient One explained to Bruce the timeline as she understood it, not necessarily as it exists within multiverses.

Everyone in the show is learning about these things along with us, so their understanding and word usage might lead to confusion to the audience because the characters are also confused.

A lot of what we have been given has been spoon fed to us. The TVA has been lying about things, but not everything. And the thing Ravenna said about pruning entire realities/timelines really shouldn't be taken at face value. She was lying to Sylvie to buy time for the minutemen to show up so there's no reason to think she also wasn't lying about that.

Especially considering we see several things dropping into the void from above, which are all localized things, which matches what one of the characters said about the reset bombs only having a certain radius.

 

[HeySeuss]

I wouldn't go as harsh as to say people want to be spoon fed, but there does seem to be a disconnect between people that are ok with the most certainly intentional gaps in logic, and the people that really really need answers for these things. Like I can comfortably fill these gaps in without second thought so it is hard for me to understand where some people might come off as confused, but I think that's just a difference in how we all operate as people I guess.

This timeline stuff is all intentionally vague - they do it like this in the comics as well - leave stuff vague as hell so that you can mold it to fit the story you're trying to tell. That's going to rub some folks the wrong way, but personally it's my preferred way of handling dumb shit like Time Travel. Let the writers go wild with it that's what I say.

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Not only is it intentionally vague, it really has to be that way from a storytelling perspective because this is an episodic universe. They leave gaps open to interpretation because 20 movies from now I guarantee we will have people, just like in this thread, talking about something a character in a previous movie said making it out to be proof positive that they made a plot hole or that the writing is inconsistent.

Welcome to the multiverse of madness lol

 

[RetroMG]

Steve returned the timestone and septor, to points immediately after they were taken. So the agreement with the Ancient One was upheld.

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This is a minor quibble, but it is something that bothered me and I wanted to call it out.
Steve didn't return the scepter or the Tesseract. We see him go back with Thor's hammer and the six stones in their stone form. So he CAN'T have put it back just as they were.
I've just written it off as "just repeat to yourself, it's just a show, you should really just relax," but it is a minor plot hole.

 

[RadzPrower]

Steve returning the stones to their timelines is an important plot point.

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Is it really though? That whole thing was handled off-screen as a way to get Chris Evans out of the role. I personally think they talked about the time travel mechanics TOO much in Endgame because they were trying to avoid this exact problem of lore being more important than the story itself. The irony is that over-explaining everything just served to muddy the water and take focus away from the story itself.

 

[Heynongman!]

Welcome to the multiverse of madness lol

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The ride never ends haha

 

[Trup1aya]

So this is what I mean with the show being too exposition-heavy. The things that you are saying that occurred in this story, those are really important things. They aren't things that should only be decided via conversations with other audience members, they are things that should have been delineated the show itself. You, an audience member, are saying that Steve returned the stone in its rightful place in the rightful time. Me, another audience member, never having seen the actions being done, am calling into question the validity of it all. If this has to be explained from person to person with expositional dialogue as the only thing the show has to offer, then the show isn't doing a good job of telling its story.

In the 2014 timeline, Thanos left. Whether or not the TVA thinks it is a "problematic deviation", it is a significant change to the timeline. I actually made a thread about this a few years ago pondering this exact thing.

Is the Marvel Cinematic Universe now the Marvel Cinematic Multiverse?

Something that occurred to me during the events of Endgame, in that several of the Avengers during the time travel sequence go in pairs into the past. And this is like 2 or 3 pairs of characters which means at least 2 to 3 new universes they created just by being there. The things that happened...

www.resetera.com

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I dunno, I feel like a show shouldn't have to explicitly show you everything.

The plan was to return the stones to the moment they were taken "as if they never left" . And there's never been any indication that Steve didn't do this. Unless they show us that Steve's mission was unsuccessful, we should assume he was successful.

The 2014 Thanos did leave his timeline and never return and that is a massive deviation to any reasonable person. But apparently, the TVA wanted Thanos to do that, just like they wanted the Avengers to go time hopping. Whether or not they pruned Thanos' branch is an interesting topic of discussion, but its not a discussion that conflicts with the established logic.

 

[Orayn]

My roommate and I have a wacky theory that yet another Loki is behind the TVA and he's been pruning the competition as part of some even grander plan.

It's Lokis all the way down.

 

[Maple]

Sylvie is probably a goner though.

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I will riot.

My roommate and I have a wacky theory that yet another Loki is behind the TVA and he's been pruning the competition as part of some even grander plan.

It's Lokis all the way down.

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That's not a wacky theory...it's one of the most discussed theories and probably the most likely. It would be thematically and narratively fitting for that to be the case.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

My roommate and I have a wacky theory that yet another Loki is behind the TVA and he's been pruning the competition as part of some even grander plan.

It's Lokis all the way down.

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I'm on this boat as well.

The whole "Kang, Immortus, Nathaniel" is just the whole "Mephisto is behind WandaVision" again of people looking to see what they want to see.

 

[The Artisan]

Is it really though? That whole thing was handled off-screen as a way to get Chris Evans out of the role. I personally think they talked about the time travel mechanics TOO much in Endgame because they were trying to avoid this exact problem of lore being more important than the story itself. The irony is that over-explaining everything just served to muddy the water and take focus away from the story itself.

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it has become more important because of new concepts introduced in Loki. before this show, the only reason I would think it would be important to see Steve returning the stones is because of the history he has with the Red Skull. Also, we only ever see how the soul stone is obtained, and it would be interesting to see how exactly it was supposed to be put back.

but yes, because Loki introduced the concept of erasing alternate timelines, it comes into conflict with the Avengers' plan of returning the stones. If the timelines are erased, then it would be impossible for Steve to return them.

I dunno, I feel like a show shouldn't have to explicitly show you everything.

The plan was to return the stones to the moment they were taken "as if they never left" . And there's never been any indication that Steve didn't do this. Unless they show us that Steve's mission was unsuccessful, we should assume he was successful.

The 2014 Thanos did leave his timeline and never return and that is a massive deviation to any reasonable person. But apparently, the TVA wanted Thanos to do that, just like they wanted the Avengers to go time hopping. Whether or not they pruned Thanos' branch is an interesting topic of discussion, but its not a discussion that conflicts with the established logic.

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I feel like a show shouldn't have to explicitly show you everything. But I also feel like a show should have to explicitly show you important plot details, not just have them explained away in expositional dialogue. Up until Endgame, there has ever been indication Steve was unsuccessful, but because of the reset/prune concept introduced in Loki, the story started getting convoluted.

The actions of 2014 Thanos goes against the actions of 2018 Thanos, so it doesn't make sense why the TVA would have wanted 2014 Thanos to create a branched timeline. After all, that is the premise of this show, as the actions of 2012 Loki goes against the actions of 2018 Loki.

 

[RadzPrower]

If the timelines are erased, then it would be impossible for Steve to return them.

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Nobody explicitly said those timelines were pruned. Hell, if anything, they indicated that they specifically were not in like the first or second episode because they said what the Avengers did was part of the Sacred Timeline.

 

[The Artisan]

Nobody explicitly said those timelines were pruned. Hell, if anything, they indicated that they specifically were not in like the first or second episode because they said what the Avengers did was part of the Sacred Timeline.

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Early on in this show's premiers, I think episodes one and 2, the conversations I had in this thread included people saying those timelines were pruned. If that's not what actually happened or if it's not what the show was trying to get the viewer to believe what happened then it's just further evidence to me how bad the storytelling is with Loki.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I dunno, I feel like a show shouldn't have to explicitly show you everything.

The plan was to return the stones to the moment they were taken "as if they never left" . And there's never been any indication that Steve didn't do this. Unless they show us that Steve's mission was unsuccessful, we should assume he was successful.

The 2014 Thanos did leave his timeline and never return and that is a massive deviation to any reasonable person. But apparently, the TVA wanted Thanos to do that, just like they wanted the Avengers to go time hopping. Whether or not they pruned Thanos' branch is an interesting topic of discussion, but its not a discussion that conflicts with the established logic.

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It's all up for debate until we learn the actual how and why of the TVA. What actual occurrence are they trying to make sure does/doesn't happen across all timelines?

Again it could be unrelated but let's say it's Kang and he is trying to make sure that the conditions are met for him to be able to conquer the timeline in the future. The TVA needs Thanos to lose so that Nathaniel Richards can be born and become Kang in the future. So Thanos leaving the 2014 Timeline or the Avengers fucking with time travel to defeat Thanos in their timeline may not matter at all to the TVA. Loki escaping with the Tesseract however, may lead to Thanos being unable to acquire the Space Gem at some point so he just kills Thor or the rest of the Avengers and isn't defeated, and ends up killing half of all life on Earth without the Infinity Gauntlet.

Steve returned the Stones and then as far as we know, lived a quiet life with Peggy. He may have never done anything to affect the timestream when he was out getting laid.

All hypothetical as we don't know the truth behind the TVA as yet, so what looks like an inconsistency could just be a case of the discrepancies not mattering to their actual end goal.

 

[Heynongman!]

I'm on this boat as well.

The whole "Kang, Immortus, Nathaniel" is just the whole "Mephisto is behind WandaVision" again of people looking to see what they want to see.

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It really isn't. In Wandavision there were literally no connections to Mephisto. In this we've seen tons of tangible threads that point to Kang.
Renslayer, Alioth, Qeng Tower, just to name a few. Will Kang be the big bad? almost certainly not. Is it a crackpot theory that he shows up in this? absolutely not. we know he's coming soon, what better way to introduce him than have him show up here in some capacity? In an environment that makes complete sense for him

 

[Ernest]

In the 2014 timeline, Thanos left. Whether or not the TVA thinks it is a "problematic deviation", it is a significant change to the timeline.

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He was "supposed" to leave that timeline, and that's all they really have to say about it.

 

[Orayn]

That's not a wacky theory...it's one of the most discussed theories and probably the most likely. It would be thematically and narratively fitting for that to be the case.

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Well I'd certainly prefer it to someone from the comics who's a big name there but completely unknown to me showing up like a weird JRPG final boss.

 

[The Artisan]

He was "supposed" to leave that timeline, and that's all they really have to say about it.

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I don't remember them saying anything at all about 2014 Thanos leaving his timeline, actually. Anyway, by doing so, he created a branched reality. And I thought that was the TVA's mission, to prevent such things from happening.

 

[RadzPrower]

He was "supposed" to leave that timeline, and that's all they really have to say about it.

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Yeah, this really is the whole Dr. Strange issue from Infinity War all over again. People cannot or will not accept something being part of a bigger plan or picture.

 

[Doorman]

I think, more than anything else, this show has served as a big reminder for myself of why I generally dislike big "branching timeline" or multiversal stories in general. There is no practical logic that can close the multitudes of loopholes without simply saying "fuck it, infinite realities, anything goes" and at that point you undermine any stakes to the story you're telling because there's no fear or suspense to the protagonist possibly failing when you already know there's an infinite number of other scenarios where they fail too or an infinite number of other scenarios where they succeed.

Nothing matters in a multiverse story unless you keep the scope constrained to the setting and characters of one particular reality, but Loki as a show abandoned that possibility pretty much immediately. I think it might be my least favorite of the D+ Marvel shows for it, because of its own intentionally-made logical holes.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I'm on this boat as well.

The whole "Kang, Immortus, Nathaniel" is just the whole "Mephisto is behind WandaVision" again of people looking to see what they want to see.

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It's not though. Mephisto may never appear in the MCU. Wanda's arc can still happen without him, and anything that looked like a hint or reference could have just been a coincidence or a red herring.

We know Kang is coming, we know characters like Ravonna and Alioth are directly related to him and he's one of the few villains with the means to do something like manipulate the TVA into creating the conditions for his rise to power.

It could very well be another Loki they face off with in the finale but at this point there are way too many direct references to Kang/Immortus to not have them involved in some way.

I don't remember them saying anything at all about 2014 Thanos leaving his timeline, actually. Anyway, by doing so, he created a branched reality. And I thought that was the TVA's mission, to prevent such things from happening.

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That's what they wanted us to think, yes. They may not care about branching realities at all, as long as they don't prevent the outcome they're trying to manipulate.

 

[RetroMG]

I don't think Kang/Immortus is going to be the man behind the curtain at the TVA, but I think whoever it is will absolutely be working for Kang. And we'll probably get a post-credits tease/reveal ala Thanos in Avengers 1. (Even if Kang doesn't appear, it would be easy to have someone mention that the Loki villain wasn't the real mastermind.)

 

[pikachief]

It is also possible that the big bad is the "prime" ravonna, directly working for kang.

 

[RadzPrower]

I don't remember them saying anything at all about 2014 Thanos leaving his timeline, actually. Anyway, by doing so, he created a branched reality. And I thought that was the TVA's mission, to prevent such things from happening.

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Not about Thanos 2014 specifically, but does apply to the events of Endgame broadly speaking.

 

[The Artisan]

Not about Thanos 2014 specifically, but does apply to the events of Endgame broadly speaking.

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we can't speak broadly about the events of Endgame here because this courtroom scene is only dealing with Loki's variation of the timeline in 2012. Neither Loki himself or even Ravonna for that matter even know that there is another branched reality occurring that starts in 2014 with Thanos leaving his timeline.

 

[Android]

I'm on this boat as well.

The whole "Kang, Immortus, Nathaniel" is just the whole "Mephisto is behind WandaVision" again of people looking to see what they want to see.

Click to shrink...

His love interest since 1965 is our only "bad agent" currently left in Ravonna Renslayer. This is not Mephisto 2.0. We have an actor playing him that Disney went out of their way to announce while not revealing Black Panther 2, Strange 2, The Eternals, GotG 3, Spidey 3's villians yet. The only other annouced villian is being played by one of the greatest actors of his generation in Christian Bale, hence Gorr's reveal. Kang is very important to Disney, Mephisto was head canon.

 

[HeySeuss]

I don't remember them saying anything at all about 2014 Thanos leaving his timeline, actually. Anyway, by doing so, he created a branched reality. And I thought that was the TVA's mission, to prevent such things from happening.

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Cmon dude you can't be serious. She said the events that happened with the Avengers were supposed to happen. Of course that includes Thanos jumping from 2014. Did she need to say that Gamora still existing was meant to happen as well or no? We don't need an itemized list here, her statement saying it was supposed to happen covers everything that happened in Infinity War and Endgame.

I think you're trolling at this point.

 

[HeySeuss]

we can't speak broadly about the events of Endgame here because this courtroom scene is only dealing with Loki's variation of the timeline in 2012. Neither Loki himself or even Ravonna for that matter even know that there is another branched reality occurring that starts in 2014 with Thanos leaving his timeline.

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Ok now I'm convinced you're taking the piss. They know how everything unfolds from the beginning of time until the end of time. You're deliberately being either obtuse or enjoying the reaction you're getting playing dumb.

 

[RadzPrower]

Cmon dude you can't be serious. She said the events that happened with the Avengers were supposed to happen. Of course that includes Thanos jumping from 2014. Did she need to say that Gamora still existing was meant to happen as well or no? We don't need an itemized list here, her statement saying it was supposed to happen covers everything that happened in Infinity War and Endgame.

I think you're trolling at this point.

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I don't know about trolling, but they're certainly wanting to be spoon-fed as much as they may not believe themselves at this point. I mean, I posted a damned clip broadly covering the event of Endgame and they're just ignoring it because it's not explicitly laid out for them.

 

[The Artisan]

Cmon dude you can't be serious. She said the events that happened with the Avengers were supposed to happen. Of course that includes Thanos jumping from 2014. Did she need to say that Gamora still existing was meant to happen as well or no? We don't need an itemized list here, her statement saying it was supposed to happen covers everything that happened in Infinity War and Endgame.

I think you're trolling at this point.

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That courtroom scene was only discussing Loki's variation of the timeline in 2012. The Avengers were mentioned because Loki brought them up, and blamed them. He obviously wasn't talking about the 2014 branch, because he has no idea about it. Why is it that whenever someone is critical about a show and just talks about their distaste for it that people will just assume that they are trolling?

Ok now I'm convinced you're taking the piss. They know how everything unfolds from the beginning of time until the end of time. You're deliberately being either obtuse or enjoying the reaction you're getting playing dumb.

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They do, but Loki doesn't. Thanos wasn't brought up in that scene at all. But whatever, you can think what you want about me.

 

[The Artisan]

I don't know about trolling, but they're certainly wanting to be spoon-fed as much as they may not believe themselves at this point. I mean, I posted a damned clip broadly covering the event of Endgame and they're just ignoring it because it's not explicitly laid out for them.

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That clip does not broadly cover the events of Endgame, only the event of Tony, Scott, Bruce, and Steve traveling to 2012. That resulted in Loki becoming a variant. Thanos and the 2014 branch isn't discussed.

 

[Mr. Snuffleupagus]

I had a thought:

What if…the big bad from Loki S1 is Evil Doctor Strange from the What if…? series?

Then it ties to the next series nicely; potentially serves as a great cliffhanger; he was already rumoured to be back for WandaVision, why not this?

 

[Pai Pai Master]

The TVA can't be taken at their word so ultimately it doesn't matter what their excuse for 2014 Thanos would be. For whoever is running the show, Thanos leaving his timeline likely results in the same desired outcome.

 

[RadzPrower]

That clip does not broadly cover the events of Endgame, only the event of Tony, Scott, Bruce, and Steve traveling to 2012. That resulted in Loki becoming a variant. Thanos and the 2014 branch isn't discussed.

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So, Tony, Scott, Bruce, and Steve being in 2012 (a critical part of the plan and plot of Endgame) is okay, but the rest of the time travel in the movie (also critical to the plan and plot) is not also included in the Sacred Timeline?

Between the Loki trial and Dr. Strange's line from Infinity War about being the only option, it's painfully obvious that the events of the movies and television series to date are on a narrow path and things had to happen the way they did, including time travel. We may yet find that even Loki and Sylvie's variance are also part of that grander plan as well.

 

[Heynongman!]

The TVA can't be taken at their word so ultimately it doesn't matter what their excuse for 2014 Thanos would be.

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Also, the show is called Loki, not "What happened with 2014 Thanos". Like why does this even matter in the context of this series lol

 

[HeySeuss]

They do, but Loki doesn't. Thanos wasn't brought up in that scene at all. But whatever, you can think what you want about me.

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Correct. Loki doesn't know Thanos time jumps because he is dead by then anyway in the correct timeline.

Why would she need to explain to him events that also happened as a result of the Avengers going back in time, when he would never need to know Thanos goes forward in time anyway? It doesn't make sense.

She would have had to given him a cliff notes version of everything that happened in order for it to make sense to him, giving him context for something that is irrelevant to him on trial. The audience already knows what happened there and Loki wouldn't be alive to ever know about it anyway. There is zero need to include that in the explanation to him on trial.

 

[BringBackSonics]

Mobius is safe. You can't have a death fakeout and then kill them off for real a few episodes later.

*Looks at Walking Dead*

Ok, you can't be a GOOD show and have a death fakeout and then kill someone off for real a few episodes later.

Sylvie is probably a goner though.

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Not sure I'd get rid of one of the better/well received strong female characters in the MCU.

 

[effzee]

I guess the confusion stems from the fact a branched timeline comes off the main one and is/isn't considered a different multiverse. Which is it?

If the main timeline has a male Loki, how does a branch form from that with an Alligator Loki? It would need to be a completely separate multiverse with it's own sacred timeline running in parallel with the MCU one. Then each one could branch due to events not supposed to happen. Yet the TV show does not tell us that is how it is. They combine all variants to be offshoots of the sacred timeline, which makes no sense.

When the Avengers went back in time, it was always their own past on the sacred timeline, nothing was different.

Toby and Andrew Spider-Man universes can't just be branch variants, they'd need to be their own Multiverse or else why wouldn't they get pruned? How would they be allowed to even get that far in time? There are no other heroes in those universes which means it can't be apart of the MCU sacred timeline, each must be it's own sacred timeline in it's own multiverse.

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This is where I keep getting tripped up too. The show is to loose with the terms timeline and multiverse and the rules set up by the TVA don't follow through. Initially when they talked about the variants, I thought it was the main MCU timeline Loki and different version of him at different points in time who had messed with timetravel. But the different Lokis we see are from different universes altogether. But the TVA said the multiverse was destroyed to preserve the sacred timeline...

I agree with this sentiment. More comprehensively, the show cares about (in order) Loki the Character, fun, adventure, and universe mechanics coming close to last.

I'm perfectly fine with this, but it took me a bit to get it. The time stuff in the first episode isn't to establish coherent rules, it's to set up very minimal ones and handwave anything else.

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I am loving the show but I have to admit I was far more into the story of the TVA and catching an evil Loki Variant. The time-hopping to different points in history, it felt like a mystery that Loki and Mobius would solve. It is still fun but I was enjoying that arc more. Loved how it was set up like a boring day to day operation.

Here's a very poor pictorial representation of how I've been thinking about the different timelines and variants.

• There are multiple universes or realities (I view these terms as synonymous).
• Each universe has its own timeline and Loki variant. Ie, a universe in which Loki is an alligator, a universe in which Loki is the old Loki, a universe in which Loki is Sylvie, etc.
• The TVA hops among all the universes/realities to sculpt and prune each timeline so that the same series of events plays out within each. With respect to Loki, this means everything we were shown in the MCU, leading up to and including his death at the hands of Thanos after Ragnarok.
• Any Loki variant that somehow does something that would result in an alternate timeline within that universe is captured by the TVA, sent to the void, and that branched timeline is "pruned", or quarantined and removed from the core timeline, ensuring that the series of events the TVA wants to transpire will indeed happen.
• The "Sacred Timeline" is just the specific series of events that needs to play out the same way in each universe.

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This makes the most sense to me so far. With all the exposition, especially the fun informational video in ep 1, wish they explained this part too.

EDIT: Also I love how casual Sylvie is about killing tons of TVA agents even though she knows they themselves are variants. She's upset at the TVA for ruining her life and deleting branches/realities but has no issues with murdering the agents she knows are under a spell.

 

[The Artisan]

So, Tony, Scott, Bruce, and Steve being in 2012 (a critical part of the plan and plot of Endgame) is okay, but the rest of the time travel in the movie (also critical to the plan and plot) is not also included in the Sacred Timeline?

Between the Loki trial and Dr. Strange's line from Infinity War about being the only option, it's painfully obvious that the events of the movies and television series to date are on a narrow path and things had to happen the way they did, including time travel. We may yet find that even Loki and Sylvie's variance are also part of that grander plan as well.

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That depends on the TVA's mission objective. From episode 1, it is established that Loki is arrested because he did something he wasn't supposed to do. Later, Mobius shows him what he was supposed to do, everything he was supposed to do until his death. Going by this logic, Thanos from 2014 should have been reprimanded the same way Loki from 2012 was, because just like 2012 Loki, 2014 Thanos deviated from the sacred timeline.

Correct. Loki doesn't know Thanos time jumps because he is dead by then anyway in the correct timeline.

Why would she need to explain to him events that also happened as a result of the Avengers going back in time, when he would never need to know Thanos goes forward in time anyway? It doesn't make sense.

She would have had to given him a cliff notes version of everything that happened in order for it to make sense to him, giving him context for something that is irrelevant to him on trial. The audience already knows what happened there and Loki wouldn't be alive to ever know about it anyway. There is zero need to include that in the explanation to him on trial.

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I'm not saying that Ravonna needs to explain anything to Loki. What I'm saying is that the TVA did nothing about 2014 Thanos' actions that deviated from the sacred timeline. By their own definition, that would also make 2014 Thanos a variant.

 

[RadzPrower]

2014 Thanos deviated from the sacred timeline.

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Except he didn't because we know Strange saw Tony snap Thanos 2014's army. If the TVA pruned anything, it wouldn't be Thanos 2014, but the timeline he created when he LEFT. Thanos 2014 was supposed to be in Endgame, but the branch he created in 2014 might not be and could have been pruned as soon as he left.

 

[Fj0823]

That's quite a take, Mendelson...

 

[The Artisan]

Except he didn't because we know Strange saw Tony snap Thanos 2014's army. If the TVA pruned anything, it wouldn't be Thanos 2014, but the timeline he created when he LEFT. Thanos 2014 was supposed to be in Endgame, but the branch he created in 2014 might not be and could have been pruned as soon as he left.

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I don't think Strange has anything to do with this. I'm talking about the TVA and how they operate. In 2014, Thanos enlisted Ronan to get him the power stone. That is the event of the sacred timeline. But in Endgame, 2014 Thanos deviated from this entirely.

 

[HeySeuss]

That depends on the TVA's mission objective. From episode 1, it is established that Loki is arrested because he did something he wasn't supposed to do. Later, Mobius shows him what he was supposed to do, everything he was supposed to do until his death. Going by this logic, Thanos from 2014 should have been reprimanded the same way Loki from 2012 was, because just like 2012 Loki, 2014 Thanos deviated from the sacred timeline.

I'm not saying that Ravonna needs to explain anything to Loki. What I'm saying is that the TVA did nothing about 2014 Thanos' actions that deviated from the sacred timeline. By their own definition, that would also make 2014 Thanos a variant.

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They did nothing to 2014 Thanos because that was what was supposed to happen. Whoever is behind the TVA wanted Thanos eliminated, which is why everything that happens as a result of the Avengers getting the stones via time travel is part of the sacred timeline.

This is also confirmed by the explanations of nexus points of other lokis doing things that impact the Avengers winning.

Boastful loki killed Iron man and Cap. Got pruned because the Avengers could no longer win.

Kid Loki killed Thor so he got pruned because the Avengers could no longer win.

Sylvie wanted to be good (we assume) so she got pruned because that effects Thanos manipulating her to get the tesseract and start the stone process. So Thanos probably wins in that reality because he gets the stones a different way because New York doesn't happen.

Old Man loki played dead and fucked off in isolation so he was fine until he wanted to find Thor and reconnect and got pruned.

It seems a big part of pruning things has to do with ensuring the Avengers win as they did in Endgame. Which means whoever is behind the TVA needs Thanos eliminated to remain in power.