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Marvel Studios' Loki |OT| See You Soon (All of Season 1 is on Disney+)

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Qikz

Qikz

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Oct 25, 2017
12,470
PlanetSmasher said:
That is exactly what mystery shows are about, though. Mystery shows aren't about TRICKING the audience, they're about giving the audience evidence and allowing them to come to a conclusion at roughly the same time as the detective. BAD mystery shows are the ones that go "LOL WE TRICKED YOU".
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They've been giving evidence pointing towards Kang since the start. It requires extra reading to fully get it but they can easily tie it all together in the show itself at the end. Having the big bad just being another Loki a) would be incredibly cliched and obvious and b) wouldn't make any sense. Loki isn't powerful enough or wouldn't have mastery enough to have existed before Time and then created the TVA / the monster that defends where he stays. If it was Loki as well he wouldn't leave a monster that could be enchanted to defend him since he would know that his variants would inevitably end up coming after him. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
 
effzee

effzee

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Oct 26, 2017
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NJ
Finally caught up to all the episodes last night and I am in love with the show. Everything from the look, set design, the fantastic soundtrack, and of course Tom as Loki.

But I am confused about the timeline/alternate/multiple universes stuff. Sorry if some of this is basic stuff.
  • From the TVA video that we see in ep1, we know that the TVA supposedly erased the other timelines to prevent multiverses. So that there is only one universe and timeline. Correct?
  • And then in the following episodes whenever they discuss the other variants, even the Loki Variants, they showed Tom Hiddleston's Loki dressed in different costumes. I thought the implication was that at different points in time, Loki, this Loki/Our Loki, has messed with the timeline and they've had to prune him and destroy him. They never said the variants were from different universes, in fact, the whole goal is to prevent these variants from creating new timelines that could lead to the creation of the multiverse.
  • So then is the girl Loki/Sylvie from the same universe as the Avengers and our Loki? Why is everyone assuming she is from a different universe? If the TVA and whoever is running it, doesn't want the multiverse, why wouldn't they destroy the other universe(s) instead of plucking one child here or another variant there from different universes?
  • Am I completely understanding it incorrectly? To me episodes 1-3 seem to imply there is only 1 timeline and 1 universe, all others were destroyed. All the Variants they catch and destroy are to prevent the creation of other timelines and universes. It is also why whenever they go to the different locales in time to catch Sylvie it's always in our current timeline, where our Avengers and Loki are from. But reading everyone's comments here, it seems everyone understood episode 4 and Sylvie's past as part of another universe.

Also, did anyone else wish they kind of stuck with the whole chase of the Loki Variant through different periods of history and apocalypses? I felt the show had a much darker feel through episodes 1-3 right before the twist about the TVA and the forces behind it being the evil/big bad.
 
Tace

Tace

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
35,471
The Rapscallion
God damn that was the best episode yet. Old man Loki!!! Love the goodbye between Loki and Mobius too.

They actually put in the Thanos Copter. The absolute legends. This is Marvel's world now and we're just living in it.
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

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Oct 25, 2017
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Qikz said:
They've been giving evidence pointing towards Kang since the start. It requires extra reading to fully get it but they can easily tie it all together in the show itself at the end. Having the big bad just being another Loki a) would be incredibly cliched and obvious and b) wouldn't make any sense. Loki isn't powerful enough or wouldn't have mastery enough to have existed before Time and then created the TVA / the monster that defends where he stays. If it was Loki as well he wouldn't leave a monster that could be enchanted to defend him since he would know that his variants would inevitably end up coming after him. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
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I don't really think they have been giving evidence toward Kang at all, honestly. If they were, it would be much clearer. Ravonna's presence doesn't mean "YEP KANG IS HER BOSS", especially when this episode largely pointed to the fact she's just as oblivious as everyone else.
 
Manmademan

Manmademan

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vaderise said:
Prediction: the Big Bad is a Loki variant who works for Kang, possibly being somewhat manipulated by him.
After Loki and Sylvie defeat the Evil Loki, we'll get an end credits stinger showing Kang pulling the strings. Would also be a cool parallel to Loki working for Thanos and a nice nod to Avengers end credits.
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Beyond the Ravonna stuff there's two reasons why I don't think villain is another Loki here.

The first is that all of the Lokis are very flawed people- the scene this episode where they all end up betraying each other is indicative of this. Loki's inability to trust anyone always results in him self-sabotaging himself and his plans falling apart. Thor said the same thing in Ragnarok- Loki's propensity for stabbing EVERYONE in the back had made him incredibly predictable and this is why he always lost. Another villainous Loki wouldn't really be able to put together an organization like the TVA, or trust someone like Ravonna to run it for him.

The second is that Lokis are all (to some degree) magically inclined individuals. Even Sylvie who was never taught magic by anybody self taught herself enchantment and (our) Loki inherently learns this skill under duress at the end of the episode. But look at the TVA. Magic of all kinds does not work there. Not just Loki's magic, the infinity stones don't work either- they're paperweights. The Timekeepers aren't illusions or magical constructs, they're robotic androids. The TVA doesn't time travel using magical means, they use scientific devices that run on batteries. As far as we can tell the TVA and whoever runs it doesn't use magic for anything, ever. That's not Loki's MO.
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

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Manmademan said:
The second is that Lokis are all (to some degree) magically inclined individuals. Even Sylvie who was never taught magic by anybody self taught herself enchantment and (our) Loki inherently learns this skill under duress at the end of the episode. But look at the TVA. Magic of all kinds does not work there. Not just Loki's magic, the infinity stones don't work either- they're paperweights. The Timekeepers aren't illusions or magical constructs, they're robotic androids. The TVA doesn't time travel using magical means, they use scientific devices that run on batteries. As far as we can tell the TVA and whoever runs it doesn't use magic for anything, ever. That's not Loki's MO.
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I mean this actually makes sense in my opinion. Why allow his primary strategy effectiveness in his team's HQ? It would just allow another variant to easily sneak in and kill him. By disabling his own powers and allowing the TVA to act as a bulwark, he effectively has a shield against incursions from other, hostile Loki variants.

What he never counted on was two Lokis learning to work together and legitimately care about each other, because he, as a Loki, thinks all Lokis are liars and betrayers like himself.
 
CloudWolf

CloudWolf

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Oct 26, 2017
15,597
It's not going to be Kang for the simple reason that no show ever would reveal the main antagonist in its final episode, especially when that main antagonist hasn't been mentioned or even really been hinted towards yet. That's simply not how storytelling works.

And no, Ravonna and the TVA don't count as hints as the only way anyone would ever get Kang from that is if they have extensive comic book knowledge which most viewers of Loki will not have. I don't think it's impossible he's in Loki, but if he's in this, he will be a one second cameo like Thanos at the end of The Avengers at the most. He's not going to be the big antagonist of this story.
 
sredgrin

sredgrin

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Oct 27, 2017
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Leaving a guard dog that needs to be enchanted fits with Loki in that, if this is a villain loki and a Hiddleston one:

He isn't good at enchanting, and he never thought Lokis could or would work together. It also reinforces the themes of the show re: people can change and reinforces their weird romance angle. The plan only works because a few Lokis do what all the Lokis think they cannot do. Change and be loved. And not betray people constantly.

Of course, that also assumes the guard dog is protecting the castle, and not actually keeping something locked up instead too.
 
Kain

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Oct 27, 2017
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Who knew the best MCU love story would be in Loki? And with himself lol

Richard E Grant being badass in the ridiculous classic Loki is another highlight of this.

My crazy stupid based on nothing theory on who the big baddie is is an Odin variant. Odin is an all controlling douche and it would fit imo.
 
Alien Bob

Alien Bob

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Nov 25, 2017
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effzee said:
Finally caught up to all the episodes last night and I am in love with the show. Everything from the look, set design, the fantastic soundtrack, and of course Tom as Loki.

But I am confused about the timeline/alternate/multiple universes stuff. Sorry if some of this is basic stuff.
  • From the TVA video that we see in ep1, we know that the TVA supposedly erased the other timelines to prevent multiverses. So that there is only one universe and timeline. Correct?
  • And then in the following episodes whenever they discuss the other variants, even the Loki Variants, they showed Tom Hiddleston's Loki dressed in different costumes. I thought the implication was that at different points in time, Loki, this Loki/Our Loki, has messed with the timeline and they've had to prune him and destroy him. They never said the variants were from different universes, in fact, the whole goal is to prevent these variants from creating new timelines that could lead to the creation of the multiverse.
  • So then is the girl Loki/Sylvie from the same universe as the Avengers and our Loki? Why is everyone assuming she is from a different universe? If the TVA and whoever is running it, doesn't want the multiverse, why wouldn't they destroy the other universe(s) instead of plucking one child here or another variant there from different universes?
  • Am I completely understanding it incorrectly? To me episodes 1-3 seem to imply there is only 1 timeline and 1 universe, all others were destroyed. All the Variants they catch and destroy are to prevent the creation of other timelines and universes. It is also why whenever they go to the different locales in time to catch Sylvie it's always in our current timeline, where our Avengers and Loki are from. But reading everyone's comments here, it seems everyone understood episode 4 and Sylvie's past as part of another universe.

Also, did anyone else wish they kind of stuck with the whole chase of the Loki Variant through different periods of history and apocalypses? I felt the show had a much darker feel through episodes 1-3 right before the twist about the TVA and the forces behind it being the evil/big bad.
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The show's a little crap at explaining it, but what seems to be the case is that there are multiple universes with significant differences, such as a Loki being a woman, or black, or an alligator, but the TVA wants all of them to follow the same track. Sylvie was supposed to do all the things the main MCU Loki did, and so was Alligator Loki. What makes them variants in the eyes of the TVA is not that they are different genders or even species, but that they did something which would diverge their timeline from the TVA's sacred timeline script.

It gets really confusing when they mention "the timeline," because clearly there has to be a multiverse of timelines that the TVA is trying to keep homogeneous to explain the different kinds of Loki. Kinda wish they had a sci-fi writer on the team just to clear up some of that stuff.
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

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Kain said:
Who knew the best MCU love story would be in Loki? And with himself lol

Richard E Grant being badass in the ridiculous classic Loki is another highlight of this.

My crazy stupid based on nothing theory on who the big baddie is is an Odin variant. Odin is an all controlling douche and it would fit imo.
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Agreed. An Odin (or Frigga) variant would be infinitely more satisfying than some rando villain who has nothing to do with Loki's personal journey.
 
Manmademan

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PlanetSmasher said:
I mean this actually makes sense in my opinion. Why allow his primary strategy effectiveness in his team's HQ? It would just allow another variant to easily sneak in and kill him. By disabling his own powers and allowing the TVA to act as a bulwark, he effectively has a shield against incursions from other, hostile Loki variants.
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This doesn't make sense at all, because while magic doesn't work in the TVA, it *does* work in the void, and all variants are sent to the void to be drained. If Loki was paranoid and concerned about "variants" threatening his plans, you don't dump dozens of copies of yourself that can all use magic in the void where *you* are.

There's nothing in the TVA. The "timekeepers" there are just a red herring and irrelevant to what the villain's plans actually are because he isn't there.

What he never counted on was two Lokis learning to work together and legitimately care about each other, because he, as a Loki, thinks all Lokis are liars and betrayers like himself.
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I think it's clear looking at the void that there's nothing really special about Loki and his variants. The TVA has been pruning all of time and space and there are a bazillion variants of everything.
 
PlanetSmasher

PlanetSmasher

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Manmademan said:
This doesn't make sense at all, because while magic doesn't work in the TVA, it *does* work in the void, and all variants are sent to the void to be drained. If Loki was paranoid and concerned about "variants" threatening his plans, you don't dump dozens of copies of yourself that can all use magic in the void where *you* are.
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I would argue that one of Loki's core flaws is that he's always halfway to a good plan and fumbles on the execution.
 
Nooblet

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A Loki being at the centre of it all should explain why there are so many Loki variants in the void no? Like why are Lokis so important ? They can't be the only ones who are persistent like this in the whole universe.

And have we settled on a name for Alligator Loki yet? Lokigator?
 
Manmademan

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PlanetSmasher said:
I would argue that one of Loki's core flaws is that he's always halfway to a good plan and fumbles on the execution.
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You could argue that, but this series and Ragnarok seem to be pretty clear about loki's propensity for betraying everyone and never trusting anyone being the primary thing that screws him up. Thor says this flat out in Ragnarok, and it's Loki's predictability in trying to betray Thanos that gets him killed in Infinity War.

The Loki variants we see in the void all come to a bad end for the same reason- they're all too busy trying to screw each other over to get anywhere. It's POSSIBLE to grow past this (As our Loki did, and Sylvie did, and Classic Loki likely did) but that requires a degree of emotional growth that takes you out of villain territory.
 
oriic

oriic

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"Glorious Purpose"

Best episode ever...the final 15 minutes was awesome/beautiful/outstanding.
 
Callibretto

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I don't think the big bad reveal is another Loki variant. this episode 5 is where they throw all the variants in, to show that most Loki variant are backstabbing asshole that always fail due to his nature, at the same time, this episode also show how Classic Loki variant can be different and heroic with his self sacrifice. another bad Loki Variant as the final boss would undermine this episode and Classic Loki moment imo.
 
The Unsent

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Manmademan said:
I think you're correct with that last bit. The cloud doesn't seem to "destroy" things so much as it seems to "drain" or age them.

The villain using the pruned variants and branches to fuel "something" seems obvious here.
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The villian could be a monster that takes the form of Ms Minutes when it communicates with the TVA and is made from composted variants. She's called Ms Minutes because she's literally made up of minutes, and minutes from time variants. That would piss Sylvie off because she's a variant herself and her sworn enemy is kind of a hypocritical giant self-made variant. Imo the reveal should be a culmination of the threads established and challenges the characters personally, if just a bit.

My other theory was, I guess Sylvie will find herself in there because that's a classic trope and the castle being a counter enchantment is a mind screw. A evil castle seems a bit on the nose that I can imagine it being created by someone they know, to mess with them. The kind of self-aware inversion that I think would suit the tone.
 
effzee

effzee

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Alien Bob said:
The show's a little crap at explaining it, but what seems to be the case is that there are multiple universes with significant differences, such as a Loki being a woman, or black, or an alligator, but the TVA wants all of them to follow the same track. Sylvie was supposed to do all the things the main MCU Loki did, and so was Alligator Loki. What makes them variants in the eyes of the TVA is not that they are different genders or even species, but that they did something which would diverge their timeline from the TVA's sacred timeline script.

It gets really confusing when they mention "the timeline," because clearly there has to be a multiverse of timelines that the TVA is trying to keep homogeneous to explain the different kinds of Loki. Kinda wish they had a sci-fi writer on the team just to clear up some of that stuff.
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But then this doesn't make sense either. Sylvie was supposed to do all the things the main MCU Loki did. Then why take her away as a child? She didn't even do any time travel shenanigans that would alter her timeline. If she was to follow the same track, and they took her away, that timeline/universe won' follow the same track.

It also doesn't explain why all the variants seem to only time-travel to places/events in human history.
 
Manmademan

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Callibretto said:
I don't think the big bad reveal is another Loki variant. this episode 5 is where they throw all the variants in, to show that most Loki variant are backstabbing asshole that always fail due to his nature, at the same time, this episode also show how Classic Loki variant can be different and heroic with his self sacrifice. another bad Loki Variant as the final boss would undermine this episode and Classic Loki moment imo.
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This is what I was trying to get across. Our Loki and Sylvie are different *because* they've moved past the backstabbing, self sabotaging villainy that the rest of the Lokis (classic aside) never did.

effzee said:
But then this doesn't make sense either. Sylvie was supposed to do all the things the main MCU Loki did. Then why take her away as a child?
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we never found this out. Ravonna obviously knows but refused to tell her- though that might have been out of spite. We'll probably get this reveal in episode 6.

She didn't even do any time travel shenanigans that would alter her timeline. If she was to follow the same track, and they took her away, that timeline/universe won' follow the same track.
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I think it's the "behavior" that needs to stay the same. Lokis all need to remain a certain kind of villain. Their role is to fail so others succeed. If there's growth outside of that track, that results in a variant that gets pruned. This is why the TVA came for classic loki. He wasn't doing any time travel, he just experienced a degree of emotional growth that took him out of villain territory.

It also doesn't explain why all the variants seem to only time-travel to places/events in human history.
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There's no evidence the variants other than "our" loki were time traveling at all.
 
SolVanderlyn

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I loved this episode but I gotta say that other than Classic and Alligator Loki, I was pretty let down by the other two. Kid Loki is apparently the leader even though Old Man Loki acts like it and Boastful Loki is barely in it before he betrays them. I was hoping they'd explain his Mjolnir hammer, or his relationship with his Thor or something.

The finale was amazing. R.I.P Old Loki.
 
PlanetSmasher

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Manmademan said:
This is what I was trying to get across. Our Loki and Sylvie are different *because* they've moved past the backstabbing, self sabotaging villainy that the rest of the Lokis (classic aside) never did.
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I thought it was interesting that the TVA left Classic Loki alone for YEARS, and the only reason they pruned him was because he got the idea to go check in on Thor. He didn't even leave his planet yet and they immediately detected him and pruned him.
 
jph139

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MOSTLY wasn't feeling this one - reminded me of Episode 3, in that it was a "down" episode for character building, but the character building wasn't that good, so the episode didn't really work. I just don't buy the Loki/Sylvie romance, other than some good jabs here and there it just comes off as corny. Same with the other Lokis... until Old Loki comes out of his shell at the end, they didn't feel unique or compelling enough beyond the "ha ha look at all the Lokis" factor. And we're really running out of time for a Sylvie backstory! Don't think we're getting more than we already got.

At this point I'm sort of thinking MCU content doesn't work for me past a certain point - the last third of all three shows has left me pretty cold, not because there's an inherent lack of quality or anything, just because I lose interest.

I don't think it's another Loki at the end because, damn, that'd be boring. I think Kang is possible but I sort of doubt it, unless it's in a roundabout way, by introducing Immortus or Rama-Tut or something. The TVA has been 100% new, so the "bad guy" being 100% new doesn't feel like a cheat here - as long as they have a compelling backstory, whether it's someone we recognize or not doesn't matter. The mystery isn't about who formed it, it's about how/why it was formed.
 
Alien Bob

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effzee said:
But then this doesn't make sense either. Sylvie was supposed to do all the things the main MCU Loki did. Then why take her away as a child? She didn't even do any time travel shenanigans that would alter her timeline. If she was to follow the same track, and they took her away, that timeline/universe won' follow the same track.

It also doesn't explain why all the variants seem to only time-travel to places/events in human history.
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I mean the implication is that Sylvie did something as a kid that the TVA didn't like. It doesn't have to be time travel related. The animation in the first episode explains you can become a variant just by clocking in late or something when you're not supposed to. The TVA are not very big on free will. As for the Earth/human centric thing, that's a creative and/or budgetary decision they made for the show that I'm not a huge fan of. Just humans in the TVA, even the Lamentis is all standard humans (though they're probably not strictly human). I think they just didn't want to paint anyone pink or yellow, and certainly didn't want to have too many CG creatures walk around. The Earth stuff could be explained by Loki being Earth-focused because Midgard is considered a great place to protect by Odin and whatnot.
 
Manmademan

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PlanetSmasher said:
I thought it was interesting that the TVA left Classic Loki alone for YEARS, and the only reason they pruned him was because he got the idea to go check in on Thor. He didn't even leave his planet yet and they immediately detected him and pruned him.
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It makes sense when you think that the emotional growth into a different kind of person caused a nexus event, much like it did when Loki/Sylvie began falling for each other. They both became a *different* kind of Loki that wasn't meant to exist, set off a nexus event and the TVA arrived to prune them.

Alien Bob said:
As for the Earth/human centric thing, that's a creative and/or budgetary decision they made for the show that I'm not a huge fan of. Just humans in the TVA, even the Lamentis is all standard humans (though they're probably not strictly human). I think they just didn't want to paint anyone pink or yellow, and certainly didn't want to have too many CG creatures walk around. The Earth stuff could be explained by Loki being Earth-focused because Midgard is considered a great place to protect by Odin and whatnot.
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Agreed. I think it's pretty clear this is happening across "all" of space/time, not just limited to earth- but TV budgets being what they are it's too cumbersome to layer extras in a ton of makeup and/or CGI.
 
PlanetSmasher

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Manmademan said:
It makes sense when you think that the emotional growth into a different kind of person caused a nexus event, much like it did when Loki/Sylvie began falling for each other. They both became a *different* kind of Loki that wasn't meant to exist, set off a nexus event and the TVA arrived to prune them.
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Right, but in that case wouldn't Classic Loki's Nexus Event be him having the realization and retreating from the world, since that was when his character shifted? Why would him deciding to check in on Asgard specifically be his Nexus?
 
Soupman Prime

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Punished Goku said:
Did you guys catch Frog Thor?
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Just finished the episode and going back reading the discussion and I'm like why isn't anyone talking about Frog Thor lol. Is that what Kid Loki meant by he killed Thor or did he physically kill him.

Great episode and of course I dreaded it ending and another week of waiting. They go by so freaking fast. Some awesome touching moments, was hilarious seeing Lokis just betraying eachother and alligator Loki is just great. First I thought it was just a pet for Kid Loki but nah it's actually a Loki. Easily my favorite series of the 3.
 
Manmademan

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PlanetSmasher said:
Right, but in that case wouldn't Classic Loki's Nexus Event be him having the realization and retreating from the world, since that was when his character shifted? Why would him deciding to check in on Asgard specifically be his Nexus?
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Because he was satisfied to remain where he was isolated from everyone and everything until the moment he began to miss his brother. That was the point where he diverged enough from every other Loki to set off an event.

jph139 said:
The TVA has been 100% new, so the "bad guy" being 100% new doesn't feel like a cheat here - as long as they have a compelling backstory, whether it's someone we recognize or not doesn't matter. The mystery isn't about who formed it, it's about how/why it was formed.
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The TVA is something they took from the comics- as a concept it's not 100% new but I think the whole mid century modern retro theme they're using for it is.
 
Slaythe

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Man I am just still super bitter about Quicksilver.

Like you're telling me the literal only guy who can branch off timelines and out speed time slowers is still nowhere to be found.

=(
 
rsfour

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Oct 26, 2017
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Glorious episode, purposeful soundtrack.

Can't wait to see what happens in the finale. It's been outstanding so far.
 
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