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jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,365
I do think they're dropping the ball on the character stuff in general - most of the conversations are good high-concept dialogue, chatting about free will and personhood and that sort of thing, but they don't have much of an emotional grounding. Which is why a lot of those beats in this episode (Loki calling Mobius his friend, the whole Loki/Sylvie ship) sort of caught me off guard. Like, oh, that's what you were going for? If that relationship stuff was working, Episode 3 would have been a lot more engaging.

If you could combine the strong, emotionally resonant leads of WandaVision with the high-concept world-building of Loki you'd have pretty much the perfect Marvel show. Well, if you got a better action director...
 

8byte

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,880
Kansas
I'm sorry I view these shows as stories that should focus on their characters as opposed to "building the next plot phase." And 6 episodes is the equivalent to 5-6 hours. I'm sorry that the show seems to be unable to do what plenty films have done in less time. Moon is 95 minutes.

I'm sure you're "sorry". 😂

I'm happy for your quest to find cinematic and narrative perfection in a comic book film. It must be incredibly fulfilling.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,142
I feel like episode 3 should have ended with Lamentis scene in 4 but right before they get rescued
 

WillyFive

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
That seems to be in line with most of the MCU. The music is just there, not necessarily adding to a scene. But I meant the music on its own, I was listening to TVA on Spotify and it's amazing how rich it sounds. I love it.

Wandavision had a great score, same for the last few episodes of Falcon.

Starting with Phase 3, the music of the MCU has become great, but I feel this show is lacking a bit in it so far.
 

RetroMG

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,721
Kang is still my bet. I think they're going to save Doom for Phase 5
There's a Fantastic Four movie on the way in Phase 4. If Doom is not the main villain (and he may not be,) I'd be shocked if he wasn't at least teased. (I'm thinking a Thanos-style post-credits reveal.)
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,612
Does anyone else think the show feels kinda...cheap? I felt this way after the last episode, which consisted almost entirely of reused sets and locations. In particular, reusing the shopping mall exterior for a random, unrelated scene, and the set for the Loki/Sif scene which felt very flat and could only be filmed from one angle. Much like the Pompeii scene in episode 2, now that I think about it.

It's like they spent all their money on episodes 1 and 3. Although it is possible they were saving money for Episodes 5 and 6 since that seems like they will have new locations.

Don't get me wrong the show still looks pretty good, it's just I can feel the purse-strings tightening in a way I didn't for Wandavision or F&WS. Or The Mandalorian.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,617
Lamentis when it was about to be destroyed reminded me of that one world from the new Ratchet & Clank game :3
 

VeryHighlander

The Fallen
May 9, 2018
6,374
Damnit at first sight I thought Kid Loki's pet was a snake. Would've been awesome to see a baby version of Jörmungandr
 

Otheradam

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,222
If Kang is really behind this don't expect anything other than a short post credit tease. They usually don't reveal a new villian out of nowhere in the last episode, it makes for bad story telling. Whoever the villian is, is already in the show. Just like Wandavision. People should set their expectations accordingly.
 

Nisaba

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,940
Canada
I do think they're dropping the ball on the character stuff in general - most of the conversations are good high-concept dialogue, chatting about free will and personhood and that sort of thing, but they don't have much of an emotional grounding. Which is why a lot of those beats in this episode (Loki calling Mobius his friend, the whole Loki/Sylvie ship) sort of caught me off guard. Like, oh, that's what you were going for? If that relationship stuff was working, Episode 3 would have been a lot more engaging.

If you could combine the strong, emotionally resonant leads of WandaVision with the high-concept world-building of Loki you'd have pretty much the perfect Marvel show. Well, if you got a better action director...

I really disagree, this show does have emotional grounding.

I think the character work in Loki has been great so far. We've seen Loki very emotionally discuss with Mobius & Sylvie about what it means to be a Loki....what his identity really is in the grand scheme of things, who he is as a god of mischief.

The bits we get where he expresses reverence for his mother Frigga and wanting to be believed in, where he sings a melancholy song in Asgardian about home and the crushed expression of sadness on Sylvie's face, where he finally apologizes in vain to Sif about why he does what he does, about his lies and his truths to Mobius and how that can impact a budding friendship, about his need to survive despite the many failures and admiration of another version of himself he sees in Sylvie. None of that evoked any kind of emotion from you????

They are doing the work to explore the identity of Loki and the season isn't even over yet. I think it's struck a good balance of character exploration and world-building in its runtime. I wish I could've been as engaged in WandaVision, where it was unfortunately only the two main leads that I felt had a strong arc.

But, Loki has interesting side characters too!

We start to see the seeds of free thinking in Mobius right at the start in episode 1 where it then cascades into an eventual discovery of the truth in episode 4 about his existence. The little things built up with the jet ski, the discussions with Ravonna, order vs chaos with Loki, etc.

We see mini-moments of character work happen with C-20 and B-15. That scene of B-15 discovering her identity in the rain was sad and thoughtful, in my opinion. I appreciated her gradual change from episode 1 to 4. In episode 1, B-15 is a no-nonsense TVA soldier. In episode 2, B-15 gets enchanted by Sylvie and rattled by the changes she sees in C-20. In episode 3, we find out what happened to C-20 and what that means for other TVA workers. In episode 4, B-15 becomes disillusioned after C-20 is coldly eliminated and decides to act for herself, not the TVA, learning who she was from Sylvie and attacking the Time Keepers directly. It's a fun little mini-arc!

I think Loki is a show about identity. All the emotional character work is going to lead into that theme.
 
Oct 25, 2017
32,257
Atlanta GA
If Kang is really behind this don't expect anything other than a short post credit tease. They usually don't reveal a new villian out of nowhere in the last episode, it makes for bad story telling. Whoever the villian is, is already in the show. Just like Wandavision. People should set their expectations accordingly.

Well they have to answer the question of who is behind it all and it's not Ravonna. She's probably just another variant of the Ravonna we know from the comics.

Who else have we already met in this show that has a higher paygrade?

It's not necessarily Kang though, you're right. (Cuz it's Immortus lol)
 

AliceAmber

Drive-in Mutant
Administrator
May 2, 2018
6,640
I squeed so hard at that post credits scene. I'm very excited for the next episode.
 

Nisaba

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,940
Canada
Does anyone else think the show feels kinda...cheap? I felt this way after the last episode, which consisted almost entirely of reused sets and locations. In particular, reusing the shopping mall exterior for a random, unrelated scene, and the set for the Loki/Sif scene which felt very flat and could only be filmed from one angle. Much like the Pompeii scene in episode 2, now that I think about it.

It's like they spent all their money on episodes 1 and 3. Although it is possible they were saving money for Episodes 5 and 6 since that seems like they will have new locations.

Don't get me wrong the show still looks pretty good, it's just I can feel the purse-strings tightening in a way I didn't for Wandavision or F&WS. Or The Mandalorian.

I definitely don't think this show feels cheap.

I think what people may be forgetting is that WandaVision and F&WS only take place on Earth.....in America for the most part. Of course that's going to be way easier on the budget lol.

Loki so far has taken place in:
- retro sci-fi TVA with it's many rooms like the ticket area, the trial area, the library, etc
- Roman Pompeii in 79 AD
- Roxxon shopping centre location in the middle of an apocalyptic storm in 2050
- the alien moon Lamentis-1 in the middle of an apocalyptic catastrophe where they included a train location and a large dynamic set for their one-take filled with cool neon lighting and alien imagery in the background
- Asgard when they flashback to Sylvie and also during the Sif scene
- the imposing Time Keeper location

I'm definitely missing other locations in my list and more will come in future episodes. To say that what they've managed to pull off feels cheap is rather harsh. All the sets have looked visually interesting and versatile to me.

WandaVision got super creative with it's sets too in the different TV eras which I loved. I was not impressed at all with F&WS on the other hand, very rote and uninspired locations but it got the job done for it's down-to-Earth story.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,346
Does anyone else think the show feels kinda...cheap? I felt this way after the last episode, which consisted almost entirely of reused sets and locations. In particular, reusing the shopping mall exterior for a random, unrelated scene, and the set for the Loki/Sif scene which felt very flat and could only be filmed from one angle. Much like the Pompeii scene in episode 2, now that I think about it.

It's like they spent all their money on episodes 1 and 3. Although it is possible they were saving money for Episodes 5 and 6 since that seems like they will have new locations.

Don't get me wrong the show still looks pretty good, it's just I can feel the purse-strings tightening in a way I didn't for Wandavision or F&WS. Or The Mandalorian.


I don't think that made it feel cheap.

They went back to the shopping mall because the TVA solider lady knew it was an imminent apocalypse and going there to talk wouldn't be detected by the TVA. *Not* reusing an earlier location there would have made no narrative sense and failed to convey that she wanted a place to talk that they wouldn't have been detected, and the collapsing moon destroying planet was hardly a safe choice that her timepad thing would have had recently set.

The sif scene was literally a repeating memory. It makes cinematic sense that that is shown from the same angle each time for that reason.
 

MangoUltz

Member
Mar 24, 2019
1,817
I still think (hope) it'll be Kang, but the other solid theory is that it's going to be another version of Loki as the big bad. I have my issues with that but it fits the "villain is already known to us" thing.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,612
I definitely don't think this show feels cheap.
I don't think that made it feel cheap.
Okay, I was being facetious when I said the show looks "cheap". It clearly has money thrown into it.

But I do feel there has been some corner-cutting in some areas. It doesn't feel as expansive as it should be given its plot. A case of the show's reach exceeding its grasp.

And I totally get it. Sometimes in order to sell the big episodes (1 and 3), you have to skimp a little on the others (2 and 4). Some shows can just hide it better than others.

And in fairness, none of the Disney+ shows (Marvel or Lucasfilm) have looked on par with their film counterparts.
 

gig

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,268
There's a Fantastic Four movie on the way in Phase 4. If Doom is not the main villain (and he may not be,) I'd be shocked if he wasn't at least teased. (I'm thinking a Thanos-style post-credits reveal.)

Yeah this makes sense. I meant Doom as the primary antagonist of Phase 5. Definitely should be teased this phase.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
Loved the post-credit scene, though I kinda wish they had saved this type of blowout for the Interdimensional Council of Reeds.
 

VeryHighlander

The Fallen
May 9, 2018
6,374
I can see Galactus being the big bad of phase 5 with Doom as the villain/anti-hero that reappears throughout the different films. Doom will be to Galactus like Ronan was to Thanos.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,006
I do think they're dropping the ball on the character stuff in general - most of the conversations are good high-concept dialogue, chatting about free will and personhood and that sort of thing, but they don't have much of an emotional grounding. Which is why a lot of those beats in this episode (Loki calling Mobius his friend, the whole Loki/Sylvie ship) sort of caught me off guard. Like, oh, that's what you were going for? If that relationship stuff was working, Episode 3 would have been a lot more engaging.

If you could combine the strong, emotionally resonant leads of WandaVision with the high-concept world-building of Loki you'd have pretty much the perfect Marvel show. Well, if you got a better action director...
Show probably could have used three more episodes.

We'll see.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,006
Everytime someone mentions Doom, I get irrationally angry that Mads was wasted on a throwaway Strange villian.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,418
I want to see them explore their differences and their similarities, I want to see them challenge each other. And I want to see each of them confront themselves. I don't give a shit about who the Time Keepers are or if its all Kang.

We don't know if Kang is important. Might just be comic book fans assuming he's the twist villian because of comic lore, I can't say, but I don't think that reveal of Kang being the true mastermind, would mean much to casual watchers as a pay off, I guess like Westworld series 1 or whatever, the clues are there for casual viewers to work out.
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,950
OK, so I was not expecting Richard E Grant to be underpants-over-tights Loki.
I had him down as being a big bad "superior variant" Loki, who created the whole TVA to rule the multiverse and keep his variants in check.
 

TyrantII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,365
Boston
Marvel is really hitting these shows out of the park.

Really liking the room the actors are having here to explore their craft, instead of just amusing quips between huge set pieces.
 

Mandos

Member
Nov 27, 2017
30,867
OK, so I was not expecting Richard E Grant to be underpants-over-tights Loki.
I had him down as being a big bad "superior variant" Loki, who created the whole TVA to rule the multiverse and keep his variants in check.
FYI whenever that version showed up in the last decade, he was the most dangerous, ruthless and cunning version with zero compassion or sympathy. Heck even in his classic appearances he was nasty. So despite the more grandiose outfit(which personally makes me think classic magician honestly). He likely is a superior/more dangerous Loki
 

TyrantII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,365
Boston
Okay, I was being facetious when I said the show looks "cheap". It clearly has money thrown into it.

But I do feel there has been some corner-cutting in some areas. It doesn't feel as expansive as it should be given its plot. A case of the show's reach exceeding its grasp.

And I totally get it. Sometimes in order to sell the big episodes (1 and 3), you have to skimp a little on the others (2 and 4). Some shows can just hide it better than others.

And in fairness, none of the Disney+ shows (Marvel or Lucasfilm) have looked on par with their film counterparts.

I think you're mistaking "cheap" for "first show to figure out how to film during a raging pandemic".

The show is not cheap by any means, and the CGI is crazy good for television standards IMO. Limiting the stage to a few actors is kind of apparent, but the meat and potatoes are still being cooked there.
 

Lmwanderer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
130
Binghamton NY
I mean, Kang being in Ant Man I think coming up seems to point in his direction. I just don't see it being the Time-Twisters with their adherence to the opposite of order. I mean, I'd laugh if it was a Stealth Multiverse nod with the Time Breakers man behind the man methodology though.
 

quik killa

Member
Oct 29, 2017
291
I really disagree, this show does have emotional grounding.

I think the character work in Loki has been great so far. We've seen Loki very emotionally discuss with Mobius & Sylvie about what it means to be a Loki....what his identity really is in the grand scheme of things, who he is as a god of mischief.

The bits we get where he expresses reverence for his mother Frigga and wanting to be believed in, where he sings a melancholy song in Asgardian about home and the crushed expression of sadness on Sylvie's face, where he finally apologizes in vain to Sif about why he does what he does, about his lies and his truths to Mobius and how that can impact a budding friendship, about his need to survive despite the many failures and admiration of another version of himself he sees in Sylvie. None of that evoked any kind of emotion from you????

They are doing the work to explore the identity of Loki and the season isn't even over yet. I think it's struck a good balance of character exploration and world-building in its runtime. I wish I could've been as engaged in WandaVision, where it was unfortunately only the two main leads that I felt had a strong arc.

But, Loki has interesting side characters too!

We start to see the seeds of free thinking in Mobius right at the start in episode 1 where it then cascades into an eventual discovery of the truth in episode 4 about his existence. The little things built up with the jet ski, the discussions with Ravonna, order vs chaos with Loki, etc.

We see mini-moments of character work happen with C-20 and B-15. That scene of B-15 discovering her identity in the rain was sad and thoughtful, in my opinion. I appreciated her gradual change from episode 1 to 4. In episode 1, B-15 is a no-nonsense TVA soldier. In episode 2, B-15 gets enchanted by Sylvie and rattled by the changes she sees in C-20. In episode 3, we find out what happened to C-20 and what that means for other TVA workers. In episode 4, B-15 becomes disillusioned after C-20 is coldly eliminated and decides to act for herself, not the TVA, learning who she was from Sylvie and attacking the Time Keepers directly. It's a fun little mini-arc!

I think Loki is a show about identity. All the emotional character work is going to lead into that theme.
Nice write up. I agree that this show has delivered a lot of great emotional moments between characters that hold a lot of weight.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
I mean, Kang being in Ant Man I think coming up seems to point in his direction. I just don't see it being the Time-Twisters with their adherence to the opposite of order. I mean, I'd laugh if it was a Stealth Multiverse nod with the Time Breakers man behind the man methodology though.

Maybe Marvel is playing the long game here with Kang, showing us him at different points of his life in different productions. What if he shows up in Loki as Immortus and in Ant-Man as a younger Kang the Conquerer? It'd be like River Song in Doctor Who, where her chronology is actually backwards relative to that of other characters.

The first time we meet River Song, she dies and there's this huge mystery about who she is because she knows things nobody could know about the Doctor. Then, as the two cross paths again and again, it becomes clear that they're always meeting at different points in each other's lives so they can't really tell each other anything in case they spoil something. It was all very clever stuff, so if they pulled off something like that with Kang that'd be amazing.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,082
I have to say, as someone whose watched almost all of the Marvel films and Wandavision as well as this, I have literally no idea who Kang is or why people keep saying he's already been in things.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,346
I have to say, as someone whose watched almost all of the Marvel films and Wandavision as well as this, I have literally no idea who Kang is or why people keep saying he's already been in things.

A lot of people want shows to be a list of references they can get that others don't. Any competent story writer wouldn't consider making the villain a character that only appeared in the last two episodes of the season and that the audience had no real knowledge about before. When one goes specifically after the approach, you get Rise of Skywalker.

At this point, either the TVA lady who was Mobius' boss (her name escapes me), or a Loki is. Maybe both.
 

Kaiken

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,179
I feel like I'm playing checkers watching the show then come in here and everyone is playing chess haha. Really enjoying the show though.
 

Soupman Prime

The Fallen
Nov 8, 2017
8,553
Boston, MA
I have to say, as someone whose watched almost all of the Marvel films and Wandavision as well as this, I have literally no idea who Kang is or why people keep saying he's already been in things.
I'd say just ignore it. Got super tiring during WandaVision, I guess to the point where it became a meme but it was still annoying. Can't imagine not knowing anything about the comics really and ppl shouting it's Mephisto or Kang every week when they're names have never been mentioned or hinted at lol.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
I feel like I'm playing checkers watching the show then come in here and everyone is playing chess haha. Really enjoying the show though.

Dont worry about it. I doubt the show is going to hinge on anything that isn't already set up.

The one thing that lends any credence to Kang appearing is that he is romantically linked/a rival of Ravonna. At best he'll be a tease, not a focus of the plot.
 

Heynongman!

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,928
I'd say just ignore it. Got super tiring during WandaVision, I guess to the point where it became a meme but it was still annoying. Can't imagine not knowing anything about the comics really and ppl shouting it's Mephisto or Kang every week when they're names have never been mentioned or hinted at lol.
There's a massive difference between dummies looking for Mephisto in something completely unrelated and hoping that Kang shows up earlier than Ant Man 3 in a setting that makes total sense for his character. Given that Kang is already cast (Johnathon Majors), Ravonna (Kang's love interest) is in this, and the TVA and Kang interact in the comics a lot, it's not absurd to think they may introduce him here. This isn't a whacko conspiracy like Mephisto was.
 

Otheradam

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,222
Well they have to answer the question of who is behind it all and it's not Ravonna. She's probably just another variant of the Ravonna we know from the comics.

Who else have we already met in this show that has a higher paygrade?

It's not necessarily Kang though, you're right. (Cuz it's Immortus lol)

I agree with you that its probably not Ravonna because she seems to be in on it and working for whoever is actually behind it all. If I had to guess, it's probably another Loki variant.
 

kurahador

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,519
I remember seeing a post in reddit saying TVA might be in quantum realm. So Kang making an appearance would make the most sense.