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Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,650
This isn't a video game or pen and paper RPG where you can someone with a ton of points in strength but super weak at same time cause of no points in toughness. The two traits are connected unless we are talking about some kind of magical healing/toughness factor. And again Thor who has super human strength is shown to be going toe to toe against Loki. Thor whose opening up a giant iris to the star forge, whose hammer swings can destroy giant alien robots in one blow, yet Loki can meet these blows and hold against Thor without issue? Anyone able to go toe to toe with Thor and his blows is super human in strength. When they can be locked in arms and Loki can even throw Thor... yea there is a big disconnect here.

He one hand picks up Tony Stark with ease and chucks him across a room and through a window in the Avengers too.

Yeah it isn't an RPG, where the stats would be fairly set in stone unless there's game bullshit or cutscene cinematic bullshit. Power levels in stories like these tend to be to a degree malleable depending on the needs of the story - Stan Lee rather notably said (paraphrasing) "Whoever wins in a fight is whoever the writer wants to win." The trick is ultimately making it believable. Quite honestly this isn't like a super-serious debate to me, all I'm ultimately saying is that based on what Loki's done in the past and who he is as a character him not swatting people like flies every time he moves his arm doesn't come off to me like something that should break suspension of disbelief. If anything, him firing energy blasts and telekinetically catching a whole-ass building is more out-there.

I will note that you're doing the OBD power level thing of taking Thor's feats and ascribing them as Loki's feats, and that really isn't ever how this actually works. You don't take Thor tanking the star forge, take Loki not getting insta-gibbed whenever he clashes with Thor, and presume you can just swap Loki in there and everything's gucci. Funnily enough you're actually devaluing Thor's shows of strength by implying that they're not as individually impressive given the racial super-strength of Asgardians relative to humans.
 
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DeathyBoy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,430
Under my Hela Hela
Nah, you're reading too much into it. Then again, Loki is written so loosely you can just flip him when you want.

We saw him "win" in Thor 1. In the first film he successfully manipulates Odin to banish Thor then stresses Odin into a slumber. Afterwards he takes the throne and is mostly a stern and stoic ruler. He then seeks to prove his worth as ruler by eliminating Jotuheim. He didn't take the throne and start partying, he took his job seriously and sought to prove himself as the true worthy ruler of Asgard. So, you can easily argue its out of character for him to do the exact opposite in Ragnarok and instead he would see his position as another chance to prove to Odin and everyone else he's an effective leader instead of being an aloof ruler concerned only with self-vanity.

Again, Loki is written as all over the place but it mostly works because Hiddleston is that good.

EDIT:

I'd actually argue its even further out of character for him within Ragnarok since Hela briefly throws out the idea that Loki inherited Odin's guile and wisdom whereas Thor took his strength. When she appears she mentions that Thor "doesn't look like him" but Loki "sounds like him." So, its kinda weird the dude whose seen as being as intelligent as Odin is actually a dumbass, ineffective ruler.

I don't think we should rank up Odin's intelligence to be honest. Dude was allowed the nine realms because of his bloodthirsty rep, not because he was some kind of fantastic leader or King. The second people realised he was growing older and weaker, chaos ensued.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,332
New York
The simple answer as to why Loki is having problems with random guards is that they need fight scenes, the fight scenes can't be too short, and they don't want to burn money on special effects.

Otherwise you end up trying to explain the Force Kick in RotJ.
 

odiin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,727
It would be really cool if Thor didn't exist in Sylvie's timeline and instead Balder was her brother.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086
We've actually seen him use telekinesis a few times over the years but that was indeed his most impressive showing with it. I assume he just got a buff on account of Strange and Wanda doing far better stuff with their magic than him to date and that not really making any sense. He's a god, after all, so his magic should be stronger than theirs.

Loki ultimately just isn't that strong at magic. He uses it to supplement his guilt and tricks but he's not a major magic user in the MCU like other characters.

Strange is getting stronger because his film was an origin story and he still has vast amounts to learn. Which we see happening every try film. He's got hundreds of years of catching up to the Ancient One to do. And he *utterly* outclasses Loki magic wise. Absolutely hands down inthe MCU.

Wanda has been getting stronger with every film as well - presumably because the mind Crystal effects are still going on. What she did in civil war compared to Ultron, and then in Endgame and Wandavision way outclasses Loki.

He's just not on their level at all.

(I do think the tower falling thing is just a further sign that it's not real. I thinkLoki and Sylvie are using their magic to try and control the other…)
 

Nisaba

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,941
Canada
Wasn't Loki drunk during that fight scene with the guards where he got thrown off the train? His aim was all messed up with his daggers too lol.

Hardly seems like we should take that as a serious example of what he can do against normal strength level beings.

He's not one to jump directly into a fight but I'm sure he can hold his own regardless.

I'm beginning to realize a lot of MCU viewers seriously underestimate Loki's strength/abilities? He's a god and a 1000+ year old wielder of magic, he should be strong. I'm not sure why telekinesis is so weird for him to have?? We saw him use it in Thor 2...
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Loki ultimately just isn't that strong at magic. He uses it to supplement his guilt and tricks but he's not a major magic user in the MCU like other characters.

Strange is getting stronger because his film was an origin story and he still has vast amounts to learn. Which we see happening every try film. He's got hundreds of years of catching up to the Ancient One to do. And he *utterly* outclasses Loki magic wise. Absolutely hands down inthe MCU.

Wanda has been getting stronger with every film as well - presumably because the mind Crystal effects are still going on. What she did in civil war compared to Ultron, and then in Endgame and Wandavision way outclasses Loki.

He's just not on their level at all.

(I do think the tower falling thing is just a further sign that it's not real. I thinkLoki and Sylvie are using their magic to try and control the other…)

I totally disagree. If this were Dungeons and Dragons, you'd basically be arguing that an Evocation Wizard is stronger than an Illusion Wizard, when that isn't true at all.

Loki is remarkably talented at magic and has consistently been portrayed as such. The only issue is he was the first character in the MCU to even use magic, back when Asgardians were just really advanced aliens and magic was just really advanced science. Yet with each appearance, Loki's magic has improved as the MCU itself has become more open to it. Even in Thor 3, Loki is on Doctor Strange's list of "threats to Earth" and he successfully enchanted Odin of all people. I think you're seriously underestimating how strong Loki actually is and, even though the show is actually now showing us just how strong he is, you're just dismissing it out of hand as an illusion.

Loki is the protagonist of this show, which means he's no longer the bad guy that must lose to the good guys. That means he can finally become as strong as he's meant to be which, yes, I do believe is on the same level if not greater than the Sorcerer Supreme. Depending on what the Scarlet Witch is it's possible Loki won't be on Wanda's level, but he is still comfortably the second or third strongest magic wielder in the universe and equal to or not that far behind the best there is.
 

Valkerion

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,234
I think we'll see Loki power up/show more impressive magic as it goes on. Marvel is pretty inconsistent with power levels afterall but just like he can now do "magic blasts" suddenly, he will probably display more than just illusion/trickster stuff. I don't expect it to be anything huge but just more, i dunno, impressive?
 

Tophat Jones

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,946
I think my biggest issue with this episode is that it made me feel like they aren't above making the finale Loki flying through the air in a crazy CGI battle against the 'Timekeepers'. After those first two episodes it was fair to hope we go in a different direction than punching or green spark fingertip magic.

But it's still a fun show with great characters. And if it's an isolated thing it's perfectly fine over the course of six episodes. Very interested to see how the second half of the season goes down.
 

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,385
Germany
Excuse me?

Loki's intelligence has always been written inconsistently. There's like zero reason for him to act so out of character from Odin in Ragnarok other than because its funny. Like the whole idea in Thor 1 was that Loki felt he was more mature, intelligent, and wise than Thor, who he saw as a reckless partier, and thus should've been the rightful ruler. He's even ribbed at by the Warrior's Three for being such a downer and should lighten up. Yet, when he's Odin he decides to become the very same reckless partier as Thor that any Asgardian should know is out of character for Odin.

tumblr_p2wfbbgub81qa1s2no1_r1_540.gifv


So yeah, Loki's intelligence changes with every scene.
When he's Odin, he got what he wanted though - it's a scheme that worked and not the moment where he sets it all up.
You could even argue that he wants to get cought because he won't get any credit otherwise.

It's a very different situation but your point is true nonetheless - the writer changes, the mood changes and with it the characters. I'm still not on board with a version that hasn't succeeded in anything these 3 episodes, should they not go for a "it was all part of my scheme" moment later on.
 

davepoobond

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,605
www.squackle.com
Episode 3 was a bunch of talking on a green screen until that cool one-shot action scene. Children of Men still did it better, but i rewatched it a couple of time because it was fun.

The rest of the episode felt like filler. They only have like 6 episodes and they waste half of one with them sitting on a rock.
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany
Still massively hating the HDR/ general Dolby Vision picture in this series, it's all so muddy and dark and not good looking, making my LG C9 looking like a garbage supermarket 100 bucks TV. Awful.
There is absolutely nothing here that screams 4K or HDR.
 

Javier23

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,904
Still massively hating the HDR/ general Dolby Vision picture in this series, it's all so muddy and dark and not good looking, making my LG C9 looking like a garbage supermarket 100 bucks TV. Awful.
There is absolutely nothing here that screams 4K or HDR.
I'm on a B8 and it looks fine to me?
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany
I'm on a B8 and it looks fine to me?

It's definitely not the TV, everything is calibrated and other movies look freaking amazing, just watched some Pixar movies last weekend and skipped through other marvel movies to compare, but here everything is really dark, it feels like light has like 200 nits or so, just awfully dark too and the whole picture is mostly kinda foggy and unsharp looking. It's really unappealing in comparison to almost everything else in 4K and HDR.
 

Javier23

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,904
It's definitely not the TV, everything is calibrated and other movies look freaking amazing, just watched some Pixar movies last weekend and skipped through other marvel movies to compare, but here everything is really dark, it feels like light has like 200 nits or so, just awfully dark too and the whole picture is mostly kinda foggy and unsharp looking. It's really unappealing in comparison to almost everything else in 4K and HDR.
Yeah, I'm no expert but I've noticed way too many big blockbusters in the last few years just looking real dark in HDR. Solo is easily the worst offender I can remember. Not sure if it's my OLED not being bright enough, an attempt at disguising CGI with very dark settings or just both. Loki does have a very dark look to it too, and it does seem intentional. Resolution looks fine to me but, again, I might not be close enough to the TV.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
I'm still not on board with a version that hasn't succeeded in anything these 3 episodes, should they not go for a "it was all part of my scheme" moment later on.

Has he really not succeeded at anything? He was caught completely off guard and exposed to technology far beyond anything he even knew existed, yet he figured out how Sylvie has been evading the TVA all this time and got exactly what he wanted: the second Mobius told Loki that they were hunting another Variant Loki, he decided he would team up with his other self to take over the TVA.

Things haven't worked out quite the way Loki and Sylvie had hoped but they are still working together to bring the Time Keepers down. Sylvie presumably wants to kill them and Loki wants to replace them.
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,091
This episode is throwing my head around the what is real and what is not problem due to the power levels of the characters.

I know people are pointing towards Loki couldn't fix the collapsing building so it's obviously an illusion theory.

I'm more thinking the Tempad didn't actually get broken when they got thrown out of the train. I know we are shown it broken, but God of Trickstery can show illusions and is one prone for backstabbery in the long run.
 

Deleted member 9241

Oct 26, 2017
10,416
When the episode was over, my youngest daughter said "If all the timekeeper employees were plucked from time, the blonde detective was from the 90's. The reason he likes the jet ski so much is because he used to ride them all the time. They tried to erase it from his mind but he liked jet skis so much there is a leftover memory they couldn't fully erase. I think the timekeepers are the bad guys and Loki will save reality from them."

pretty good read from a kid tbh
 

EinBear

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,669
Still massively hating the HDR/ general Dolby Vision picture in this series, it's all so muddy and dark and not good looking, making my LG C9 looking like a garbage supermarket 100 bucks TV. Awful.
There is absolutely nothing here that screams 4K or HDR.

I'm on a CX and have been disappointed with the Dolby Vision presentation too. It's very dark. I'm wondering if it's another Mandalorian situation where it's not actually 'real' HDR.
 

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,385
Germany
Has he really not succeeded at anything? He was caught completely off guard and exposed to technology far beyond anything he even knew existed, yet he figured out how Sylvie has been evading the TVA all this time and got exactly what he wanted: the second Mobius told Loki that they were hunting another Variant Loki, he decided he would team up with his other self to take over the TVA.

Things haven't worked out quite the way Loki and Sylvie had hoped but they are still working together to bring the Time Keepers down. Sylvie presumably wants to kill them and Loki wants to replace them.

Not phrased the best on my side - he has shown skills, he just didn't succeed in any schemes.
 

Xun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,319
London
It's definitely not the TV, everything is calibrated and other movies look freaking amazing, just watched some Pixar movies last weekend and skipped through other marvel movies to compare, but here everything is really dark, it feels like light has like 200 nits or so, just awfully dark too and the whole picture is mostly kinda foggy and unsharp looking. It's really unappealing in comparison to almost everything else in 4K and HDR.
I mentioned it before, but I noticed something similar with the Luca trailer on Disney+.

It said it was Dolby Vision but it seemed to be giving me the SDR version flagged as HDR which made the trailer look muddy/dark, whereas the actual film itself looks flawless.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's the app causing issues to be honest.

How are you watching Loki by the way? On webOS or a separate device?
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,123
I'm a little surprised how many people thought this episode was filler. I thought that was gonna be an unpopular opinion.
 

Barnak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,058
Canada
Did anyone else have issues with english subtitles with this episode? I watched it yesterday and almost half the time someone spoke, the subtitles weren't showing. I never had this problem with other episodes, or even other series on Disney+, so I'm not sure what was wrong. I even logged out of Disney+ on my TV just to be sure, but the problem was still there.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
I'm a little surprised how many people thought this episode was filler. I thought that was gonna be an unpopular opinion.

I usually don't agree with such opinions, I think that too often in serialised shows people will call an episode filler if it doesn't advance the main plot, even if there is a lot of character work in it. But yeah, this was kind of a filler episode. I don't think we got any meaningful development of the two characters. It was still a fun episode but it had little substance.
 
Oct 27, 2017
479
I weirdly like how hokey and low budget the sci-fi mining planet looked. It actually feels consistent with what they've shown of cosmic Marvel and could have just as easily been a setting in Guardians of the Galaxy.
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
Dug the first two episodes, bored to tears by the third. Was like a boring Dr Who episode. The long single take sequence felt out of place too, there for the sake of it and felt hollow.

A earlier post compared this to The Fly episode of Breaking Bad. As someone who loves that episode this was nowhere near the same league as it.
 
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The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,123
I usually don't agree with such opinions, I think that too often in serialised shows people will call an episode filler if it doesn't advance the main plot, even if there is a lot of character work in it. But yeah, this was kind of a filler episode. I don't think we got any meaningful development of the two characters. It was still a fun episode but it had little substance.
Beyond being informational, there wasn't much that happened here and the main reason I find that disappointing was because Sylvie was introduced at the end of episode 2. So their first full time spent together I thought would have much more substance
Stupid opinions can be popular as well.
I didn't say it was a stupid opinion. It happens to be mine, I just thought I would be in the minority.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,492
Crazy how divisive Episode 3 is to some people

I loved it as much as the first two. Maybe because the subjects they are tackling intrigues me and I love the characters?
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
First two episodes were 10/10s, this one was 6.5/10. Not bad but it sticks out like a sour thumb when you compare it to how fantastic the first two were.

I think one of e issues was how we didn't get any TVA stuff, it felt very disconnected from the rest of the story.
 

DeathyBoy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,430
Under my Hela Hela
When the episode was over, my youngest daughter said "If all the timekeeper employees were plucked from time, the blonde detective was from the 90's. The reason he likes the jet ski so much is because he used to ride them all the time. They tried to erase it from his mind but he liked jet skis so much there is a leftover memory they couldn't fully erase. I think the timekeepers are the bad guys and Loki will save reality from them."

pretty good read from a kid tbh

You should be very proud that your daughter has better understanding of the show and the theories than a lot of people in this thread. I am not being sarcastic.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,254
Calling the latest episode filler seems like a potential lack of media vocabulary.

This episode had all the hallmarks of a table setting episode: it puts all the pieces into place for the main story arch and tries to be economical by also doing character work during this time.

In my opinion, these episodes are usually pretty bad on the first viewing.

Of the three episodes shown so far, I bet this one will be the most enjoyable one to revisit after we know what it was trying to set up.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,123
Calling the latest episode filler seems like a potential lack of media vocabulary.

This episode had all the hallmarks of a table setting episode: it puts all the pieces into place for the main story arch and tries to be economical by also doing character work during this time.

In my opinion, these episodes are usually pretty bad on the first viewing.

Of the three episodes shown so far, I bet this one will be the most enjoyable one to revisit after we know what it was trying to set up.
There was important information that was revealed but the majority of the runtime felt like filler. The episode essentially began with Loki and Sylvie stuck in an alternate universe apocalypse without a way out, and it pretty much ended in that same predicament.
 

Forkball

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,941
When the episode was over, my youngest daughter said "If all the timekeeper employees were plucked from time, the blonde detective was from the 90's. The reason he likes the jet ski so much is because he used to ride them all the time. They tried to erase it from his mind but he liked jet skis so much there is a leftover memory they couldn't fully erase. I think the timekeepers are the bad guys and Loki will save reality from them."

pretty good read from a kid tbh
Does she prefer Josta or Surge?
 

Punchline

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,151
"the episode started with them in a apocalypse and ended with them still in the apocalypse"

wow its almost like that was the point
 

Punchline

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,151
i genuinely dont understand how you could think this episode was a waste of time given it was telling a story about being stuck on a planet and exploring the options to get off, with it getting gradually worse until there is nothing but annihilation left. slyvie was introduced last episode yes, but we didnt even know her name or got any good general impression of her- this episode is entirely just building around her character and what makes her different from the loki we know, in addition to also fleshing out loki as a character.

its a extended version of the scene at pompeii- the point is that apocalypses generally cant be really meaningfully impacted to diverge them from the main path, so obviously the end is set up from there, but its a further exploration of that idea. what do these characters have when they dont have the TVA stuff? loki gets his daggers in this episode and theyre functionally useless.

if you find that boring, sure, i understand. but calling it a waste of time because they stay in one location the entire episode and fail to accomplish the goal of getting back to the TVA was entirely the point of the episode. the show is called loki, i would imagine a episode focused around two of them would be more fitting of the show than anything else.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,123
"the episode started with them in a apocalypse and ended with them still in the apocalypse"

wow its almost like that was the point
that was the point? for the plot to go nowhere? then it is filler.

what I meant with that post is that since I watched the episode and know what happens in it, I feel like if I hadn't watched it and just skipped over it to episode 4 then I wouldn't have missed much of what's supposed to happen.
 

quik killa

Member
Oct 29, 2017
291
that was the point? for the plot to go nowhere? then it is filler.

what I meant with that post is that since I watched the episode and know what happens in it, I feel like if I hadn't watched it and just skipped over it to episode 4 then I wouldn't have missed much of what's supposed to happen.
Sure you could still follow the plot, but then you wouldn't have as much of an appreciation and understanding of the character interactions and motivations going forward.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,650
I honestly would classify the episode as filler, ngl. We get a couple looks into Sylvie's character and the drop that the TVA agents are brain-wiped (seemingly all human) variants, but for the most part the episode is a side-plot to force Loki and Sylvie to cooperate and thus bond. The actual scenario doesn't matter, this episode just decided to go big with "We're trapped on a moon and the moon's exploding!! "

The thing is filler isn't fundamentally bad as long as it's done well enough. The idea of filler being fundamentally bad pushes the frankly toxic mentality that the only value of an episode or chapter - the only thing worth your time and thus the only thing worth enjoying - is how it progresses the plot. Now there is the easy counterargument to the MCU D+ shows - "You only have 6 episodes of at most an hour, you can't afford to waste any of it" - but so long as everything is still done well and told well at a macro and micro level it should still be fine.
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,305
Finally got around to seeing the third episode. These Wednesday releases aren't good for me, want to go back to Fridays.

Anyway, definitely the weakest of the three episodes thus far. I liked Loki and Sylvie's interactions with each other but I felt kind of frustrated that we learned so little about Sylvie despite spending the entire episode with her. I'm going to guess that they went with calling her Sylvie to allow her to be an Enchantress while leaving the window open just in case they want to use Amora down the line somewhere.

Definitely called the TVA agents all being variants though I was disappointed in how it was revealed. Didn't land the way I think it could have. Oh well.