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MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
At the end of the day, he's Scorsese's problem:

But, you might argue, can't they just go home and watch anything else they want on Netflix or iTunes or Hulu? Sure — anywhere but on the big screen, where the filmmaker intended her or his picture to be seen.

He speaks of the elimination of risk and new filmmakers, but under the new system, the one where streaming services are around, new filmmakers and people of color are getting vastly more chances to direct their own original pictures and stories than they did in the heyday. Period.

So let's talk about what really happened. The mid-budget studio pic, which is where Scorsese and others like him (De Palma, Mann, Coppola, Fincher) used to play is gone. Because at the end of the day, TV caught up.

On the studio side, they need the return on investment, so they bet big to win big, but that's not really a Marvel thing. Studios will do what works until it doesn't, as evidenced by the many, many lean-budget horror films that launch each year. On the theater-side, they want to fill theaters and screens, which again leans heavily on the blockbuster film.

And on the audience side, the equations is always this: It costs 15 hard-earned dollars to go see a movie, at minimum. Now we pay up to $15 a month to get access to services that bring us Succession, Chernobyl, When They See Us, and more, it's real, real hard to justify spending $15 to see a drama on the big screen. And since The Irishman is coming to Netflix, Scorsese is actually only making that argument that much stronger.

Any discussion without those factors is missing the forest for the trees. And this part:
For anyone who dreams of making movies or who is just starting out, the situation at this moment is brutal and inhospitable to art. And the act of simply writing those words fills me with terrible sadness.
in a world where more women and people of color are getting a chance to direct their projects and tell their stories, because of streaming, feels a bit myopic.

So I respect his work and understand his feelings, but disagree with the actual core foundation of his argument. Not the Marvel films, but the actual underpinning of the box office. (Plus, many of these arguments are used for horror films, so it already leaves a great distaste in my mouth on that side.)

And ladies and gents, he's not just aimed at Marvel films, that's his "Xbox=game console" talking. It's pretty much all blockbusters that are taking those screens.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,160
Well, regarding your music analogy I think there is a better one.

Consider pop music, which is heavily produced and revised and edited and basically made to be a hit. This would be the equivalent of a Marvel movie.

Then compare to something like Madvillainy by MF DOOM. This is what Scorsese is referring to as cinema.

So are both art? Yes. Are they they same kind of art? No.

Exactly right. But you said it: both are art. Despite making other valid points, his core arguement is that one is not. And that is simply not true.
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
Marvel films are the equivalent of label manufactured pop artists for the most part. They arent an artists work. They're an assembly line manufactured product.

And its perfectly fine to like pop music.
 

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,075
I didn't read his original comment, nor the 2nd one. I went ahead and read this one.

Why would anyone say he's right? It's eloquently stated, but his argument boils down to saying some movies aren't real movies. It's exactly as valid as saying metal or rap isn't real music. That is to say, not valid at all.
No. Your analogy is not accurate at all.

Its more like saying manufactured boy band/girl band pop music with the same look, structure, song writers, producers, stylists, marketing teams, format and delivery are not really artistically the same as artist who write their own music and perform their own songs and push the envelope with their creativity
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,834
Saying that Feige is being slighted by Scorsese suggesting the Marvel films lacks the creative vision of a unified artist is silly.

Feige doesn't write or direct the films himself. Does he play a large role in shaping the general direction of them? Sure. But itis a far cry away from the artists who spend years pouring their vision into every pore of a film.

Where does the art begin? Feige is the architect of the MCU. Again this entire situation was unnecessary and has just become about diminishing creatives. It's so obnoxious.
 

yepyepyep

Member
Oct 25, 2017
703
I think at this point it is an ego thing, he said something expecting everyone to be in awe at his sage words. But a not significant amount of people disagreed with him.
How is this an ego thing? If you read the piece it is quite nuanced and he explains how his own different experiences of growing up shaped his views on cinema, how there is subjectivity in demarcating "theme park" films and "cinema" by referring to Hitchcock and his main concern about franchises and blockbusters making it harder for small films to have runs in cinema. People paint his views as arrogant but he literally spells out why he thinks the way he does.
 

Tace

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
35,469
The Rapscallion
Yeah, I guess only movies count in the industry for Scorsese. There's plenty of opportunities to break out through tv and streaming now too. Especially for POC, the time has never been better.

I don't really think he has a full view of the situation, just his perspective
 

Goodstyle

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,661
People begging Marty to stop need to read the piece. He's speaking out, because to him, there's a real thing at stake here. He's not an old man yelling at clouds, he feels like we're losing something precious.
 

JJD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,499
Where does the art begin? Feige is the architect of the MCU. Again this entire situation was unnecessary and has just become about diminishing creatives. It's so obnoxious.

Feige is a business man. A very smart, perhaps even brilliant exec, who understands his product and his audience like no other but he ain't an artist.
 

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,075
Its not about Marvel. He can think whatever he wants about super hero movies.

It is about that he knows that people look up to him and he is making damn sure we hear him as an 'authority' on the art. Despite nobody asking for his opinion anymore.
Actually people havent stopped asking for his opinion ever since the first comment. Lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
The subset of people who feel personally attacked whenever Marvel films are criticized always weird me out. Even in this thread, on the premise alone of someone sharing a different opinion, without reading anything critical, simply write it off as some salty old guy. It's weird as fuck.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,954
My daughter is a very creative person, but she isn't an artist and neither is Kevin Feige.

Daughter right now:

giphy.gif
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,048
How is this an ego thing? If you read the piece it is quite nuanced and he explains how his own different experiences of growing up shaped his views on cinema, how there is subjectivity in demarcating "theme park" films and "cinema" by referring to Hitchcock and his main concern about franchises and blockbusters making it harder for small films to have runs in cinema. People paint his views as arrogant but he literally spells out why he thinks the way he does.
this is his 4th or 5th time addressing it. He gave context, but it doesn't really change anything
 

Haribo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
979
No one is paying $15 to go see Irishman in theatres. He's right but he's wrong. Without Marvel, theatres would not fill seats to subsidize smaller film screenings. Its unfortunate that the revenue split is becoming larger, but you can get great coverage on streaming nowadays for smaller films. He just has a overly romantic view of the Theatrical experience imo
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,160
No. Your analogy is not accurate at all.

Its more like saying manufactured boy band/girl band pop music with the same look, structure, song writers, producers, stylists, marketing teams, format and delivery are not really artistically the same as artist who write their own music and perform their own songs and push the envelope with their creativity

No. "Not cinema" does not mean "not the same artistically". It means "not art".

There's already a shorthand for "not the same artistically" that everybody uses. It's "popcorn flick". Had he said either of those, he wouldn't have had to try and clarify with longer- and longer-winded ways to sugarcoat his lousy opinion.
 

Toriko

Member
Dec 29, 2017
7,683
The ones who need to "let it got" are the butthurt Marvel stans. Scorsese probably wrote this article cause he got sick of being asked to talk about it in interviews especially since with his movie coming out and awards season coming soon.

This. Such a wonderful well written piece. He should stop paying attention to MCU mediocrity though.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,048
Truth. But at the end of the day, the directors and the rest working on those films, do count, yes?
I would say there is an art of putting the right people at the right place at the right time. We seen people try to form super groups before and fallen through
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,834
Feige is a business man. A very smart, perhaps even brilliant exec, who understands his product and his audience like no other but he ain't an artist.

I disagree. He has vision and a powerful ability to tell a story over many many years with consistency and continuity. With something as robust as Marvel to be able to string together a narrative while also bringing diversity in films like we have never seen before and starting trends in that direction because of the profitability. It's very special. He is an artist.
 

GoutPatrol

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,693
He is 100% right, even if you could take his argument down to "these are movies, and I want films."
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,903
Montreal
Coming from the video game industry, another visual medium: To me, anyone that can get their vision to a screen is some form of artist. This includes CGI artists, directors and producers, and there is certainly an art to producing movies and pioneering things that have never been done in film (which is what the MCU is no matter how you slice it).

People begging Marty to stop need to read the piece. He's speaking out, because to him, there's a real thing at stake here. He's not an old man yelling at clouds, he feels like we're losing something precious.

This comment is hilarious to me because Scorsese is speaking out about the "death" of the art film because that's a "real thing at stake" yet his repeated defense of a pedophile is something everyone just brushes over and pretends it is not a real thing that he does not speak out about. Not that your comment fell either way on that whole thing, its just the way you worded things that triggered that thought.

Anyways, the art theatre was always going to die. As tickets cost rise due to the movie theatre becoming a more niche thing, people want "sure things" to spend their movie on as they want to be entertained and don't want to spend $70 (which is how much a night out at the theatre can cost for me in my area) and risk the chance that they have a bad time. Entertaining four-quadrant action movies are just the film that people feel safe going to see at this point in the zeitgeist.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
Well, regarding your music analogy I think there is a better one.

Consider pop music, which is heavily produced and revised and edited and basically made to be a hit. This would be the equivalent of a Marvel movie.

Then compare to something like Madvillainy by MF DOOM. This is what Scorsese is referring to as cinema.

So are both art? Yes. Are they they same kind of art? No.

It might surprise you to know that the people that construct pop music are typically some of the most musically knowledgeable people in the industry. That their art isn't as experimental doesn't make it less valuable.

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of the music that people feel is more creative still touches the same references and core that pop music does. Whether the artist realizes it or not. Because music has been around a lot longer and is a lot more limited than most realize.
 

JJD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,499
Truth. But at the end of the day, the directors and the rest working on those films, do count, yes?

Sure they do, I just feel that giving "artistic cred" to Feige is not fair to the people who actually did the creative work on those movies like the writers, directors, etc.

Edit: Just to be clear, I think Feige is fundamental to the success of the marvel cinematic universe, I just don't think he can be considered an artist and frankly from what I've seen of him doing interviews he seems like a down to earth kinda guy so I doubt he considers himself one.
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
Just curious who would you define as a manufactured pop artist currently. Someone who's work you don't respect?
Well, I still somewhat enjoy his music sometimes but Post Malone for example. He has a writer (Louis Bell) and has artists that give him complete songs like Partynextdoor etc.

Or Rihanna. Who has writing camps for her songs where they fly in tons of writers. Then they bring in other singers to record the vocals for how the song will sound.

Then finally she records her vocals in the last step in the exact way the other singers did.

But, I do enjoy Rihanna songs from time to time. But it ain't the same as a real artist.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,048
Coming from the video game industry, another visual medium: To me, anyone that can get their vision to a screen is some form of artist. This includes CGI artists, directors and producers, and there is certainly an art to producing movies and pioneering things that have never been done in film (which is what the MCU is no matter how you slice it).



This comment is hilarious to me because Scorsese is speaking out about the "death" of the art film because that's a "real thing at stake" yet his repeated defense of a pedophile is something everyone just brushes over and pretends it is not a real thing that he does not speak out about. Not that your comment fell either way on that whole thing, its just the way you worded things that triggered that thought.

Anyways, the art theatre was always going to die. As tickets cost rise due to the movie theatre becoming a more niche thing, people want "sure things" to spend their movie on as they want to be entertained and don't want to spend $70 (which is how much a night out at the theatre can cost for me in my area) and risk the chance that they have a bad time. Entertaining four-quadrant action movies are just the film that people feel safe going to see at this point in the zeitgeist.
is the art theatre dying or evolving? I mean you have a mobile camera and editing bay in your pocket and you can upload it to platforms where anyone in the world can see it from the toilet. It's actually a pretty exciting time for creators
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
No one is paying $15 to go see Irishman in theatres. He's right but he's wrong. Without Marvel, theatres would not fill seats to subsidize smaller film screenings. Its unfortunate that the revenue split is becoming larger, but you can get great coverage on streaming nowadays for smaller films. He just has a overly romantic view of the Theatrical experience imo
Note, there is a problem here too. Marvel just happens to be the blockbuster stand-in here. Star Wars, DC, Fast, Jurassic Park; these are all a part of the situation Scorsese is talking about.

Sure they do, I just feel that giving "artistic cred" to Feige is not fair to the people who actually did the creative work on those movies like the writers, directors, etc.
In agreement.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
At the end of the day, he's Scorsese's problem:



He speaks of the elimination of risk and new filmmakers, but under the new system, the one where streaming services are around, new filmmakers and people of color are getting vastly more chances to direct their own original pictures and stories than they did in the heyday. Period.

So let's talk about what really happened. The mid-budget studio pic, which is where Scorsese and others like him (De Palma, Mann, Coppola, Fincher) used to play is gone. Because at the end of the day, TV caught up.

On the studio side, they need the return on investment, so they bet big to win big, but that's not really a Marvel thing. Studios will do what works until it doesn't, as evidenced by the many, many lean-budget horror films that launch each year. On the theater-side, they want to fill theaters and screens, which again leans heavily on the blockbuster film.

And on the audience side, the equations is always this: It costs 15 hard-earned dollars to go see a movie, at minimum. Now we pay up to $15 a month to get access to services that bring us Succession, Chernobyl, When They See Us, and more, it's real, real hard to justify spending $15 to see a drama on the big screen. And since The Irishman is coming to Netflix, Scorsese is actually only making that argument that much stronger.

Any discussion without those factors is missing the forest for the trees. And this part:

in a world where more women and people of color are getting a chance to direct their projects and tell their stories, because of streaming, feels a bit myopic.

So I respect his work and understand his feelings, but disagree with the actual core foundation of his argument. Not the Marvel films, but the actual underpinning of the box office. (Plus, many of these arguments are used for horror films, so it already leaves a great distaste in my mouth on that side.)

And ladies and gents, he's not just aimed at Marvel films, that's his "Xbox=game console" talking. It's pretty much all blockbusters that are taking those screens.
Completely agreed. It reminds when years ago Spike Lee was complaining about Hollywood's growing Blockbuster culture, where only a number of blockbuster movies where typically only shown in the summertime, but now they are numerous and released all year round.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,834
Well, I still somewhat enjoy his music sometimes but Post Malone for example. He has a writer (Louis Bell) and has artists that give him complete songs like Partynextdoor etc.

Or Rihanna. Who has writing camps for her songs where they fly in tons of writers. Then they bring in other singers to record the vocals for how the song will sound.

Then finally she records her vocals in the last step in the exact way the other singers did.

But, I do enjoy Rihanna songs from time to time.

Way too much to unpack here. I don't really understand what you are saying here in relation to your original post. Are you saying that Post Malone and Rihanna are just manufactured pop stars?
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Completely agreed. It reminds when years ago Spike Lee was complaining about Hollywood's growing Blockbuster culture, where only a number of blockbuster movies where typically only shown in the summertime, but now they are numerous and released all year round.
Yes, this is essentially the same argument Scorsese is making underneath it all.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,911
At the end of the day, he's Scorsese's problem:



He speaks of the elimination of risk and new filmmakers, but under the new system, the one where streaming services are around, new filmmakers and people of color are getting vastly more chances to direct their own original pictures and stories than they did in the heyday. Period.

So let's talk about what really happened. The mid-budget studio pic, which is where Scorsese and others like him (De Palma, Mann, Coppola, Fincher) used to play is gone. Because at the end of the day, TV caught up.

On the studio side, they need the return on investment, so they bet big to win big, but that's not really a Marvel thing. Studios will do what works until it doesn't, as evidenced by the many, many lean-budget horror films that launch each year. On the theater-side, they want to fill theaters and screens, which again leans heavily on the blockbuster film.

And on the audience side, the equations is always this: It costs 15 hard-earned dollars to go see a movie, at minimum. Now we pay up to $15 a month to get access to services that bring us Succession, Chernobyl, When They See Us, and more, it's real, real hard to justify spending $15 to see a drama on the big screen. And since The Irishman is coming to Netflix, Scorsese is actually only making that argument that much stronger.

Any discussion without those factors is missing the forest for the trees. And this part:

in a world where more women and people of color are getting a chance to direct their projects and tell their stories, because of streaming, feels a bit myopic.

So I respect his work and understand his feelings, but disagree with the actual core foundation of his argument. Not the Marvel films, but the actual underpinning of the box office. (Plus, many of these arguments are used for horror films, so it already leaves a great distaste in my mouth on that side.)

And ladies and gents, he's not just aimed at Marvel films, that's his "Xbox=game console" talking. It's pretty much all blockbusters that are taking those screens.

Best post in this thread.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
People begging Marty to stop need to read the piece. He's speaking out, because to him, there's a real thing at stake here. He's not an old man yelling at clouds, he feels like we're losing something precious.

That's literally what an old man yelling at clouds *is.* It's someone older lamenting that things are changing from what they value to something they see as less valuable.

It's "this music isn't REAL music like it was in my day." It's "kids these days don't ______ like we did when I was young." It's "Things/People/Culture/Morals/etc were better/harder working/had more depth/were more pure/etc.. "
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,903
Montreal
is the art theatre dying or evolving? I mean you have a mobile camera and editing bay in your pocket and you can upload it to platforms where anyone in the world can see it from the toilet. It's actually a pretty exciting time for creators
I'd argue that the small, niche art theatres, at least in my area, are all mostly closing and going out of business because people don't want to pony up the money when they get a similar experience (to them) at home.

The massive megaplex theatre seems to be doing just fine though, going off the ones near me since they keep expanding.

I completely agree with you. There's more platforms than ever these days to upload your art to and get it out there to the public. The theatre used to be one of the only avenues and now it competes with every other form of media broadcasting - video games, phones, home TVs, etc. No better time to be a creative, just have to roll with the new lay of the land.