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Which was the dumber moment?

  • Martha!

    Votes: 272 30.5%
  • Pa Kent tornadoed

    Votes: 449 50.4%
  • This is Katana. She's got my back. I would advise not getting killed by her. Her sword traps the sou

    Votes: 170 19.1%

  • Total voters
    891

Deleted member 76539

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 31, 2020
292
The tornado is just moronic. It's actually so stupid I can't believe it made it in the movie.

The Martha thing could've at least somewhat worked, they just needed to disconnect the concepts. Have superman plead to save his mom's life by just referring to her as mom. Boom bam Batman can have the whole realization that this dude has a mom, and grew up like the rest of us without the dumb Martha shit.

Then later when everyone is good and saved have Batman ask "are you okay miss?" Or whatever Batman would say and have her respond with yes and please call me Martha and there's your emotional resonance with the name for Batman. It's still not good and corny as shit but for me at least the Martha thing would hit as a small personal moment instead of the emotional anchor of scream fight between two meatheads.

I can't believe someone thought it'd be okay to just have Supes scream out SAVE MARTHA.
 

The Masked Mufti

The Wise Ones
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,989
Scotland
It's a really small bit, but when Zod kicks the gas truck at Superman and he just dodges it and let's it crumble a building is probably the most annoying thing in MoS for me lol. The city is already a crater and Supes is just letting shit blow up when he could've easily stopped it from hitting anything.
Could be remembering it wrong but doesn't Superman look at the destruction from that truck like 🤷🏽‍♂️
 

karl's wood

Member
Jan 15, 2019
172
The tornado scene is amazing because it so perfectly encapsulates everything that film got wrong about Superman.

The Kent's are supposed to be the absolute paragons of moral virtue in the DC universe and the way they raise Clark is the whole reason he becomes such a selfless and kind hero.

The Kent's in the DCEU are monstrous in comparison. They actively teach him not to help people in distress and tell him to his face he doesn't owe humanity anything. And it's like, yeah, that's the fucking point, he doesn't owe anyone a damn thing and he does it anyway because he's Superman.

Fuck those movies.
 

iWannaHat

Member
Jul 1, 2019
1,327
It's nice to know you don't take your own thread seriously. That kind of reinforces my overall point.
We just don't take you seriously.

You've made your ramble about why it's weird that people don't like something more than you think they should. We get it. We just don't care.

As for the poll, it's Pa Kent. It doesn't make sense based on what we know superman can do at that point. And it was such a needless. death just to price a point that was dumb
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,210
South East Asia
The Martha scene was poorly executed, but I didn't have a problem with it.

Tornado Kent was terrible. Not just the idea of it, the VFX was bad too.
 

Praetorpwj

Member
Nov 21, 2017
4,361
Rumor is, by all accounts, WB LOVED Snyder's first cut of BvS and gave it a standing ovation after it was screened for them. The critical thrashing and 2nd weekend collapse caught them COMPLETELY by surprise, hence why Justice League ended up the way it did.
Yeah this is not my recollection. That film was delayed for six months from Oct 15 to Mar 16 and there was a lot of chatter that Snyder had blown it and there were big concerns about him proceeding with JL.

It is true that the longer initial cut tested better but they wanted more showings to get that big opening weekend money. Worked to.

I don't hate either film and I genuinely appreciate Snyder trying bold ideas in a pretty sterile genre but the execution just isn't his forte. In general Superman is blameless in both examples; they are a consequence of J Kent's and Bats shittiness in these movies.
 

Praetorpwj

Member
Nov 21, 2017
4,361
Martha because who refers to their mother by their birth name? Lmao.

Both were clunkily executed though.
Yeah the scene would have played 100x better if he had begged to save his Mom and only subsequently revealed her name was Martha.

The Mom thing alone would have made even Batfleck pause.

The real problem is the setup to Bats wanting to genuinely kill Superman is so poor. I remember arguing with a friend after watching the trailer that I was sure that Bats only wanted to destroy the Supes cult by showing the world he wasn't a god. I was genuinely shocked by the 1% scene; that was straight character assassination by Snyder.
 

NiallGGlynn

Member
Apr 16, 2019
509
The "Martha" scene has ruined the name for me, all I can think of is Cavill saying it with the pathos of a man trying to poop while Ben Affleck freaks out with his robot voice

However both scenes are very funny, in BvS me and my friends have a running gag that Superman meets Pa Kent on that mountain cause the tornado blew him up there
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
971
Poland
Both scenarios are good ideas on paper but badly executed.

The Pa Kent scene, with Pa willing to sacrifice his live in order to protect Clark's identity? Well, it would work if:
- the movie already show why keeping Clark's powers a secret would be so important; instead all we got was Pa Kent being all paranoid.
- it was a different scenario than a hurricane that is already a very chaotic situation; no one would notice if something flying real fast would push Kent out of the way - it a fucking hurracane after all, things flying around is normal.
- Pa Kent sacrificing himself was the only way to resolve the situation; I don't remember who Pa Kent was rescuing in that scene, but whoever it was, he could have easily sent Clark to do so. Even without showing his full potential, Clark would have done it quicker and could suvive the tornado

The Martha scene was meant to show Batman that Superman is not a god, but there's a humanity in him too; and also remind him that he too lost parents. But:
- "save Martha"? I know that Batman was stomping at Superman's throat in that scene but "save my mom!" or at least "save Martha Kent!" would work much better
- Batman having a psyhotic episode after hearing the name "Martha" indicated that the name was the important thing in the scene, not that Supes' is worrying about his mom
- Batman overracting after hearing name "Martha!" is laughable, but that scene shouldn't be funny - it's the climax of the battle. They could easily simply make him stop fighting and go "huh?" instead of shouting angrily "WHY DID YOU SAY NAME?!"
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
971
Poland
cim8Yvv.gif


Yeah, this shit was like the least Superman thing I've ever seen the guy do

The funny thing is, if Snyder wanted to keep the "exploding building scene" in the movie, he could have easily make Superman try to stop the truck and fail at it: Supes stops the truck but Zod throws another one in his direction; or Zod could simply shoot lasers and explode the truck stopped by Superman. Or at least give us a shot of Superman looking at the explosion in shock of "what have I done?". But nope, let's make Superman dodge the truck and let it do mayhem.
 

Soupman Prime

The Fallen
Nov 8, 2017
8,569
Boston, MA
They're both terrible but gotta say Pa Kent. Not only did he tell Clark nah I'll go save the dog when Clark could've done it without anyone thinking he's an alien but Clark actually listened instead of doing it before he could say a word.

Clark could have picked up the dog and left it at home and still come back. Just bizarre to let your dad die but I guess the your not my father argument played a part in all the decision making?
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Los Angeles, CA
The Martha moment is probably the most ridiculous, but what I hated the most was how Pa Kent died. In my mind, Jonathan's death was a poignant moment for Superman, because he had to come to terms with the fact that no matter how much power he has, there are some things that are beyond him, like stopping his father from passing away from a heart attack.

I just rewatched Superman: The Movie, Superman 2, and Superman Returns yesterday, and the scene where Jonathan dies is such a poignant moment. The fact that Man of Steel completely misses the mark because it wanted to have some fancy VFX showcase irritates the hell out of me. Like, I'm convinced that the screenwriter's just don't understand Superman, or how the relationships he has with his supporting cast inform him as a character. Considering how fast he is, there was no reason why he couldn't have super sped to Pa Kent, grab him, and return without anyone being the wiser. Hell, he could have just super ran Jonathan somewhere, returned to the crowd, then have Jonathan show up later like, "Holy shit, I was swept away by the tornado, but landed in a field!" Then, ironically, have him die of a heart attack anyway. That way, you can have your cake and eat it too. Have your fancy tornado setpiece, have Clark use his powers to save his dad from the tornado, but have his dad die of something out of Clark's control later, hammering home to Clark that his powers have limits.
 

Entryhazard

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,843
The tornado scene is amazing because it so perfectly encapsulates everything that film got wrong about Superman.

The Kent's are supposed to be the absolute paragons of moral virtue in the DC universe and the way they raise Clark is the whole reason he becomes such a selfless and kind hero.

The Kent's in the DCEU are monstrous in comparison. They actively teach him not to help people in distress and tell him to his face he doesn't owe humanity anything. And it's like, yeah, that's the fucking point, he doesn't owe anyone a damn thing and he does it anyway because he's Superman.

Fuck those movies.
Snyder is an Ayn Rand worshipper, he can't really fathom altruism as something good
 

Deleted member 4353

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,559
I'm a 100% sure you've made this topic before. The moment I read the title, I knew who made it. Your obsession is something else. OT, the martha scene was dope, not the films fault you didn't get it.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
It's definitely the moment in Man of Steel, or the whole movie I guess. You're meant to put Clark in a position where, despite all the power he has, there's nothing he can do to save his dad. It's a vital moment in his development because it's how he realises that his powers can't solve every problem he's faced with. It's a humbling moment for him.

So when you reduce such an important moment to a tornado shows up, which really he could've just farted away if he wanted, it cheapens the whole thing. Which itself plays into the Kents kinda being crappy people too.
 

Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,935
Maybe I misremember the tornado, but didn't he sacrifice himself to keep Clarks powers a secret and protect him? Have seen the movie only once years ago, so my memories are vague.

Anyway, I went with Martha. Though I get the idea of both of them recognising the other's humanity in that moment, it's such a fucking dumb moment in every aspect of the execution.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
The tornado scene was always tasteless, over the top CG nonsense with flimsy narrative logic.

Pa Kent dying of a simple heart attack in '78 was an infinitely more impactful scene.

Perfectly communicates that there are some things Clark, with all of his powers, is powerless to stop. And in such a tasteful manner.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,630
The Martha scene I don't actually mind, the Pa Kent thing is baffling.

Does the fact it's not on the poll mean we've all moved on from Superman snapping Zod's neck because of not particularly well shot lasers vaguely near civilians?
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Los Angeles, CA
There is no need to look at any wrong in any movie. It's not like there's justice to be served by criticizing a movie. It's small talk.

The more people watch a particular movie, the more it would be talked about. That's all there is to it.

That, and it's fucking Superman. Like I said in another Superman thread, I'm not the biggest fan of Supes, but I admit that I really enjoy the character when he's in the hands of capable writers. Writers that really get him, and understand that Superman is just as much a story of Clark Kent as it is the crazy superpowers he has. If Clark isn't handled well, Superman isn't handled well, and that's where Snyder's take on the character falls flat, and why so many people are upset by his portrayal in Snyder's films.

I will say this, however; the Clark and Superman we get in Snyder's movies makes perfect sense when you look at the Kents. I absolutely buy that Clark would turn out the way he did with those two as his parents. Especially Jonathan. It's surprisingly consistent follow through of characterization. The problem is that, as a result, he just doesn't feel like Superman.

I love DC, and I love Marvel, so what I'm about to say next isn't meant to incite a Marvel vs DC war, but I look at how Steve Rogers is handled in the MCU, and I feel like he's a much better Clark Kent/Superman than what we've gotten from Warner's movies. It shows how you can have a character that is fundamentally a good person, resonate and be relevant to audiences, despite how so much of Captain America could easily fall into "Rah Rah America!" style propaganda. Like, Steve Rogers is a good man, much like Clark Kent. They have a strong moral center, as well as a desire to do right by everyone, not just themselves. Snyder's Clark is constantly coming off as apathetic and disinterested in helping others, though it makes sense considering that his father told him he probably should have let his classmates die on that sinking bus.

You can still tell a Superman story about him wrestling with his purpose, and feeling isolated because of his gifts, and having the world be afraid and uncertain having a god among them, without making him apathetic towards helping humanity, or treating it like a chore. Clark wouldn't hesitate for a moment to help someone in need (which young Clark did when he saved his classmates; only to have Jonathan chastise him for it. like, what kind of lesson is that instilling in his son? Spoiler: a shitty one). If you fuckup the Kents, you fuck up Clark as a result. The three of them are linked that strongly. The "real" Kents instilled such a powerful sense of responsibility in Clark that he would sacrifice his own personal well being to do what's right especially if it meant saving someone's life. You look up altruism in the dictionary, and there's a picture of Clark Kent, Steve Rogers, and Peter Parker giving each other a high five. It's just who they are, deep down to their core.

Snyder and the writers want to ask these deep, philosophical questions about Superman, his purpose, his nature, and whether or not the world needs/wants a Superman, but fails to actually answer that question, whether through Clark himself, or any other character in the film. There's a genuinely compelling concept to play around with in Man of Steel and BvS, but he absolutely bungles the execution. Another scene I loathed is when Clark goes to the pastor to get guidance on what he should do. I felt like it was such a missed opportunity to not have him go to his mother instead. Like, besides Jonathan, Martha is the only other important person in his life, and I feel like he would have 100% gone to her for guidance. Though the advice she does give him is that he doesn't owe anyone anything. Which is, sure, technically true, but that's just not something Martha Kent would say to Clark. Man, how do you fuck up the Kents so badly?

One of the scenes in MoS I actually loved, is the moment between Clark and Martha where a young Clark is overwhelmed and freaking out when his X-Ray vision manifests during his class, and he locks himself in a room. I thought it was a really touching moment where Martha is talking to him from the other side of the door, calming him and comforting her son. I foolishly thought that the rest of the film would have those moments of humanity and compassion. I was wrong.
 
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SchuckyDucky

Avenger
Nov 5, 2017
3,938
Maybe I misremember the tornado, but didn't he sacrifice himself to keep Clarks powers a secret and protect him? Have seen the movie only once years ago, so my memories are vague.

Anyway, I went with Martha. Though I get the idea of both of them recognising the other's humanity in that moment, it's such a fucking dumb moment in every aspect of the execution.
Yes, that was the intent. The problem is that Clark could have easily just jogged over and reached Pa and the Dog without using an in-human amount of speed and strength. Like, if he had gotten questions about it, just say that Clark has been training real hard for football season or something.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,699
Both scenes are laughable but the Martha scene is salvageable with just Superman yelling 'Mom!'. Save the name trivia as a friendly conversation starter with Bats later. The tornado scene is just better left off in the cutting-room floor or better yet in the screenplay drafts.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
I just rewatched the Martha scene. There is a kernel of a good idea there, reminding Batman of their shared humanity with their mothers' names. Quite clever, actually. It's just the execution is really poor and on the nose.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,164
If not for neogaf/era memes I never would've realized pa Kent was so dumb, so it has that going for it I guess

I mean watching it was like wtf is this shit but forgot about it seconds later
 

GoutPatrol

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,696
Both scenarios are good ideas on paper but badly executed.

The Pa Kent scene, with Pa willing to sacrifice his live in order to protect Clark's identity? Well, it would work if:
- the movie already show why keeping Clark's powers a secret would be so important; instead all we got was Pa Kent being all paranoid.
- it was a different scenario than a hurricane that is already a very chaotic situation; no one would notice if something flying real fast would push Kent out of the way - it a fucking hurracane after all, things flying around is normal.
- Pa Kent sacrificing himself was the only way to resolve the situation; I don't remember who Pa Kent was rescuing in that scene, but whoever it was, he could have easily sent Clark to do so. Even without showing his full potential, Clark would have done it quicker and could suvive the tornado

I 100% agree with this. There is a way and scenario where Pa Kent sacrificing himself to protect clark's identity works, but they just did everything wrong to do so.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,274
I don't think his dad willing to die to preserve his son's secret is dumb. That part showed how much he loved his son. The part that was dumb was him not having Clark go get the dog in the first place.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,275
Gotdamn. Fandome part 2 just finished. Y'all just can't have DC get too much spotlight.

Chris Terrio, the writer of The Rise of Skywalker, wrote the Martha scene. That should be all you need to know.
 

Deleted member 76539

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 31, 2020
292
Pa Kent sacrificing himself was the only way to resolve the situation; I don't remember who Pa Kent was rescuing in that scene, but whoever it was, he could have easily sent Clark to do so. Even without showing his full potential, Clark would have done it quicker and could suvive the tornado
I'm not sure this makes it better or worse but it was the fucking dog locked in a car lol.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,960
You just don't see that you're part of a snowball effect. Some people decided and were super vocal. There's nothing outstandingly bad about those scenes. There really isn't compared to media released at its current time. It's just that Zack Snyder and DCEU are the examples. There's plenty examples of bad emotional beats and story telling that are far, far, far worse than this but it's always these scenes. At a point, people have to ask themselves, "Why is it these 2 scenes that some people cannot shut up about?" and the answer is pretty clear. Like, the OP literally has a photo of Zack Snyder in it that is aimed at mocking Zack Snyder.

Y'all literally build these to just joke about it.

Like, think about it. Suicide Squad is literally a 100% objectively worse film than BvS and MoS put together but the amount of hate it gets online pales in comparison.
Or... we thought this when we saw the scenes before word got around, and those who saw it after likely would have thought the same even if they hadn't heard about it because the scenes are as bad as people say?

You are just doing your usual contrariam thing here without thinking.

There is a good reason there are two scenes "people can't shut up about", and it is far simpler than you suggest it is.

Also this is Batman and Suprrman, two FAR more beloved characters than anyone in Suicide Squad. Of course two awful pivotal scenes in their films will have more traction as a talking point, they let more people down harder than any scene in SS did.

Think aboit it.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,960
I'm right there with you.
People dislike those scenes for a good reason. If you acrually read the threads that discuss them, there is far less "hate" then there is people reasonably articulating why they dislike them.

Really not sure how people like you and subpar are missing this...
 

Sorel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,518
People dislike those scenes for a good reason. If you acrually read the threads that discuss them, there is far less "hate" then there is people reasonably articulating why they dislike them.

Really not sure how people like you and subpar are missing this...
So let's reiterate for the hundredth time what has been said for already several years. You're more REDACTED than the scenes itself. let it go.
 
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