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Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,937


I agree with this guy.


Urgh, it's one of those 'let's nitpick every little detail to death and pass if off as valid and deep critique'-video's. It's cinemasins shit spread out over 1 hour and 22 minutes (dude, you need 1 hour and 22 minutes for your critique. Oh, it's part one. He needed more?)

Skimmed trough the video, he never gets passed these kind of nitpicks (one of them is: 3PO doesn't have a red arm anymore! Fuck you RJ! -> but this is the final shot of 3PO in TFA:
Ckpgs-AXIAAgr7l.jpg
)

This guy never goes into real criticism, about the craft of storytelling. Themes, character motivations, conflict, ... (Oh, true, he goes on at the end about Luke's character and motivation, cherrypicking stuff out of interviews with Mark Hamill as an argument in stead of forming his own, and assuming what he thinks. Best one is at the end. His most 'telling' interview is a look on Marks face where he suposedly realised how important Luke was to kids and how fucked it now is? What??)

Seriously, you don't have to like The Last Jedi. But form your own opinion as to why in stead of resorting to these kind of shitty Youtube video's :P
 

TheFuzz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,497
It's really, really, hard to argue that the new trilogy is about the new characters and not the "originals" when so many story beats, arcs, and developments are carbon-copies of the OT.
 
Feb 15, 2018
1,920
That is not an actual real audience score. RT said this week that the TLJ score was attacked by internet trolls just like Captain Marvel.

CinemaScore is widely considered the best audience rating system in the business, the studios pay for their service to poll audience goes. And TLJ got an "A" CinemaScore rating from audiences.

Ok well from all the Star Wars nerds I spoke with about the film including the guy I saw it with, we all said it made TFA look like a masterpiece

Watertight fam
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
Ok well from all the Star Wars nerds I spoke with about the film including the guy I saw it with, we all said it made TFA look like a masterpiece

Watertight fam
TLJ made massive box-office. And then went on to be the best selling bluray of 2018, outselling Black Panther.

And had very strong reviews from critics. And the audience rating from the most widely trusted audience tracker in the industry was very strong,.

If people hated it wouldn't have gotten fantastic reviews, strong audience reception in the audience ratings and then go on to be the best selling bluray of the year after the fact.

Every single actual metric we have points to those who hated TLJ being a very loud but very small segment of the audience, just like the Captain Marvel hate that was all over the internet before it came out.
 

TheFuzz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,497
how can anyone take you seriously when you say the arcs of the characters are almost carbon copies.

come on.

-main villain undergoing an internal struggle while being subservient to a REALLY villainous villain

-protagonist finding their way in the universe while being the savior of the Jedi, coming from nothing

-hotshot pilot with an ego who is learning to be a "leader" while combating the authority within his own group

The only character that was genuinely interesting was Finn and he wasn't given anything to work with in TLJ. I do NOT hate the movie, I just feel like there's a wealth of stories they could be telling with this universe and they haven't explored that fully. Call it what you want, but I can't help feeling underwhelmed so far.

I've enjoyed Rogue One and Solo more than the main trilogy thus far. I know I'm probably in the minority, though.
 

Deleted member 33412

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
516
Tokyo
Does anyone not agree with the following:
Luke's character arc did justice to his character and to the jedi.
The first Order are an intimidating threat
The whole chase set-up was logical and exciting.
Holdo's motives were clear and make sense.
Leia had a good character arc.
The humour was well timed.
The Resistance as a whole had a compelling arc.
The tone at the end, in the Millenium Falcon, was appropriate.
There were very few logical inconsistentsies in the movie.
Its nice that 12 people are people are ALL thats left of the resistance.
I did not get begin to expect my expectations to be subverted halfway through the film at EVERY possible turn.

if you disagree with any of these you are entitled to dislike the movie.
 
Feb 15, 2018
1,920
TLJ made massive box-office. And then went on to be the best selling bluray of 2018, outselling Black Panther.

And had very strong reviews from critics. And the audience rating from the most widely trusted audience tracker in the industry was very strong,.

If people hated it wouldn't have gotten fantastic reviews, strong audience reception in the audience ratings and then go on to be the best selling bluray of the year after the fact.

Every single actual metric we have points to those who hated TLJ being a very loud but very small segment of the audience, just like the Captain Marvel hate that was all over the internet before it came out.

Star Wars mainline film does extraordinarily well. That's not newsworthy

I don't even hate what they did to Luke as much as the vocal ones, but there was so much pointless bloat and filler and secondary story lines that could have all been culled to make it a much better film.
 
Oct 27, 2017
404
Ireland
TLJ made massive box-office. And then went on to be the best selling bluray of 2018, outselling Black Panther.

And had very strong reviews from critics. And the audience rating from the most widely trusted audience tracker in the industry was very strong,.

If people hated it wouldn't have gotten fantastic reviews, strong audience reception in the audience ratings and then go on to be the best selling bluray of the year after the fact.

Every single actual metric we have points to those who hated TLJ being a very loud but very small segment of the audience, just like the Captain Marvel hate that was all over the internet before it came out.
It's Star Wars - it has an inbuilt audience, had plenty hype and plenty marketing, and yes critics liked it.

On the other hand there is zero shortage of very long threads on here, youtube videos more than a year out of people who dislike it. If you liked it fine, but don't pretend that dislike of the TLJ is small.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
It's Star Wars - it has an inbuilt audience, had plenty hype and plenty marketing, and yes critics liked it.

On the other hand there is zero shortage of very long threads on here, youtube videos more than a year out of people who dislike it. If you liked it fine, but don't pretend that dislike of the TLJ is small.

the problem is not that people disliked it, the problem what people are disliking it and being very vocal about it.

i have a couple of friends that didnt like it, but they were jaded on TFA too because a woman protagonist and a black protagonist.

should i take their dislike serious?
 

Deleted member 41638

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 3, 2018
1,164
It's really, really, hard to argue that the new trilogy is about the new characters and not the "originals" when so many story beats, arcs, and developments are carbon-copies of the OT.

TFA title crawl starts with Luke Skywalker and mentions Leia twice. Instead of saying Poe Dameron it only says Leia's "most daring pilot"
TLJ title crawl mentions Luke, Leia, and Snoke

So even the movies themselves don't ask us to care about the new characters.

OT title crawls mention Luke and Leia
PT title crawls only mention Amidala and the bad guys
 
Oct 27, 2017
404
Ireland
the problem is not that people disliked it, the problem what people are disliking it and being very vocal about it.

i have a couple of friends that didnt like it, but they were jaded on TFA too because a woman protagonist and a black protagonist.

should i take their dislike serious?

Was Rey just a copy of Luke with not a whole lot else - yes, Was Finn crap and underused in the TLJ - tick, was Rose useless - yes, am I a racist or sexist - no. Correlation is not causation.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Was Rey just a copy of Luke with not a whole lot else - yes, Was Finn crap and underused in the TLJ - tick, was Rose useless - yes, am I a racist or sexist - no. Correlation is not causation.

when did i call you sexist or racist?

im just saying that when the "critiques" come from a person who specifically says they dont like a woman or a black persons being protagonists, whe shouldnt take them seriously.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
It always amazes me how often and just how many people conflate YT video criticisms with general audiences lol

Imagine working overtime in 2019 to make TLJ look like it was disliked or even hated when the evidence shows the opposite.
 
Oct 27, 2017
404
Ireland
when did i call you sexist or racist?

im just saying that when the "critiques" come from a person who specifically says they dont like a woman or a black persons being protagonists, whe shouldnt take them seriously.
Ahh so sorry, my fault misread that was not implying you called me but I assumed you were talking about the if you don't like TLJ it's because of the women characters thing that was trending at the time of the movie. In any case so sorry for any offence did not mean to imply anything, my mistake.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
It always amazes me how often and just how many people conflate YT video criticisms with general audiences lol

Imagine working overtime in 2019 to make TLJ look like it was disliked or even hated when the evidence shows the opposite.
And like 90% of these channels posted videos insisting Captain Marvel was going to destroy the MCU because of Brie Larson lol.

Shows how out of touch that scene is.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
-main villain undergoing an internal struggle while being subservient to a REALLY villainous villain

-protagonist finding their way in the universe while being the savior of the Jedi, coming from nothing

-hotshot pilot with an ego who is learning to be a "leader" while combating the authority within his own group

The only character that was genuinely interesting was Finn and he wasn't given anything to work with in TLJ. I do NOT hate the movie, I just feel like there's a wealth of stories they could be telling with this universe and they haven't explored that fully. Call it what you want, but I can't help feeling underwhelmed so far.

I've enjoyed Rogue One and Solo more than the main trilogy thus far. I know I'm probably in the minority, though.
You do realise that you're taking the overall themes/struggles from such vague general perspective means the same could be said about nearly any two movies in the same genre right?

Like dances with Wolves and Shogun have the same theme/premise of "the noble savage" trope, and if you book things down as far as you have, they'd sound exactly the same on paper, despite being significantly different.

Let's look at your points:

1. The villain that is struggling morally does the evil/wrong thing consistently because to him the lightside is what's actually tempting him away from his chosen path.

2. Protagonist that literally didn't want to leave home because she was terrified of not getting to see her family again, and suffers doubt about her place in a story full of living legends.

3.literally not even the same as Han (who was selfish and didn't want to get involved lol). Han never had the issue with leadership, and the most authority he combated was Leia, and briefly telling a rebel he'll see him in hell when searching for Luke.
 
Jan 3, 2018
3,406
Except she absolutely overcomes character flaws. The difference is that her flaws aren't related to the force (which would just be retreading Luke's original arch).

I was saying she doesn't have to overcome flaws or doubt to master the force, not that she doesn't overcome character flaws in general.

Uh no. Not every conflict. She literally got captured during the film. She rescued herself yes but Kylo could have killed her if he wanted to. Hell he would've captured her again if it weren't for Finn, Chewie, his own self sabotage.

I've been very careful not to say "every conflict," but yes many conflicts. I have said before that she gets captured, (but thanks for informing me again) and I like that she got captured, because I want to see how she cleverly gets out of it, hopefully with some build up of tension, but nope. I mean, people dislike Deus Ex Machinas right? Isn't this scene pretty much one of those? Her using Jedi tricks to escape comes almost out of nowhere. So when I watch it, instead of thinking, "oh she's clever," I'm thinking "Oh, the writers didn't know how to get her out of it, so they used the force."

Her character flaws are completely unrelated to her belief in the force, something that, unlike Luke, she fully believes in and acts instinctually with. And this makes complete sense, given that she literally grew up hearing about the legends of the jedi and Luke Skywalker, she's essentially a SW fangirl.

That's what I said. She doesn't have to overcome character flaws or doubt in order to use the force. That's a writing choice to make. But it's not compelling to me when a character can just use a skill without really needing to learn it, because it doesn't seem human. But if it's compelling to you, that is fine.

Because you refuse to actually pay attention to something other than power levels and treat a who happens to be a woman with extreme scrutiny, missing the entire point of not just the films and the overall message but the metaphor that the force represents in the first place as you try to constrain it like a DBZ powerup. I know a generation of people grew up with the prequels, but half these discussions are damn near close to peeps asking about Rey's midichlorian count.

Extreme scrutiny? Because I see the character's actions and I explain why she seems more like words on a page than a human character? I'm not talking about the force as a power, I don't even like most superhero movies, and I don't watch DBZ. I'm talking about human life, and what it takes to learn skills and why mastering a skill without even trying very hard rings hollow to me. What am I not paying attention to again?

Let's be honest, it's ok that Luke has those convenient skills and ZERO trouble flying a vehicle he's never even been in including one of the cleanest takeoffs in the series. They had like, one line of exposition. That justifies EVERYTHING. He's a male after all.

Well I have problems with Luke's piloting abilities in the final sequence too. Being a rookie, he should have needed his ass saved like all the time. Or maybe he should have been a bombardier instead of a pilot, which would still allow him to make the shot but didn't require him to be a good pilot at all. As it was, we can chalk his success up to the fog of war. He was just lucky the TIEs for the most part weren't gunning for him. Also, he doesn't win entirely on his own, he has Obiwan guiding him, and Han saves his ass in the final scene. But this sequence is a perfect example of how far you can go with proper build up, which JJ often ignores or speeds through.

While we're here, let's take it a step further and see how Luke does in conflicts throughout Ep 4. First he gets saved by Obiwan in the desert, then he gets saved again by Obiwan again in the bar, then he gets saved by Han who has the idea to hide under the floorboards, then Leia rescues them from being blasted in the hallway, then R2 rescues him from the trash compactor, then Han, Luke, and Chewy work together to fight off the TIEs (but Leia explains that the escape was meant to be easy), he gets saved by Wedge in his X-Wing, then ghost Obiwan continues to guide him through the trench run, then Han saves his ass yet again in the trench. His success at the end feels better because we've seen what he goes through to get there.
 
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Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
Force projection is cool and all, but the dude literally never got off that island lol
 

The Emperor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,790
Does anyone not agree with the following:
Luke's character arc did justice to his character and to the jedi.
The first Order are an intimidating threat
The whole chase set-up was logical and exciting.
Holdo's motives were clear and make sense.
Leia had a good character arc.
The humour was well timed.
The Resistance as a whole had a compelling arc.
The tone at the end, in the Millenium Falcon, was appropriate.
There were very few logical inconsistentsies in the movie.
Its nice that 12 people are people are ALL thats left of the resistance.
I did not get begin to expect my expectations to be subverted halfway through the film at EVERY possible turn.

if you disagree with any of these you are entitled to dislike the movie.
Thank you. TLJ remains a well acted, well choreographed & extremely competently made film with prequel-era storytelling.

I will still stand by Luke's final deception towards Kylo as one of the best & most inspiring moments of the Star Wars saga though. It basically defines what a Jedi is. Non-violent resolution of conflict through using mind not body. It was a master stroke. Shame bout everything else...
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,386
I've been very careful not to say "every conflict," but yes many conflicts. I have said before that she gets captured, (but thanks for informing me again) and I like that she got captured, because I want to see how she cleverly gets out of it, hopefully with some build up of tension, but nope. I mean, people dislike Deus Ex Machinas right? Isn't this scene pretty much one of those? Her using Jedi tricks to escape comes almost out of nowhere.
If only there was an extended scene where she went into fight or flight and learned how to access someone's mind via the force in self defense:
latest


Extreme scrutiny? Because I see the character's actions and I explain why she seems more like words on a page than a human character? I'm not talking about the force as a power, I don't even like most superhero movies, and I don't watch DBZ. I'm talking about human life, and what it takes to learn skills and why mastering a skill without even trying very hard rings hollow to me. What am I not paying attention to again?
I like how literally all Rey has done is lift things with the force and force premonition, again, something literal babies and children can do without even knowing what the force is. Yet she's supposed to be a master. When she literally couldn't stand a chance against Snoke.

Well I have problems with Luke's piloting abilities in the final sequence too. Being a rookie, he should have needed his ass saved like all the time. Or maybe he should have been a bombardier instead of a pilot, which would still allow him to make the shot but didn't require him to be a good pilot at all. As it was, we can chalk his success up to the fog of war. He was just lucky the TIEs for the most part weren't gunning for him. Also, he doesn't win entirely on his own, he has Obiwan guiding him, and Han saves his ass in the final scene. But this sequence is a perfect example of how far you can go with proper build up, which JJ often ignores or speeds through.
No, JJ doesn't ignore proper buildup, instead, he relies on showing instead of telling, all the information you need is shown via visual/audio.

While we're here, let's take it a step further and see how Luke does in conflicts throughout Ep 4. First he gets saved by Obiwan in the desert, then he gets saved again by Obiwan again in the bar, then he gets saved by Han who has the idea to hide under the floorboards, then Leia rescues them from being blasted in the hallway, then R2 rescues him from the trash compactor, then Han, Luke, and Chewy work together to fight off the TIEs (but Leia explains that the escape was meant to be easy), he gets saved by Wedge in his X-Wing, then ghost Obiwan continues to guide him through the trench run, then Han saves his ass yet again in the trench. His success at the end feels better because we've seen what he goes through to get there.
It's almost like Rey isn't Luke and isn't as helpless as he is at the start of her journey due to their literal opposite upbringings.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
So many so-called Star Wars "fans" would be falling to the dark side if they were characters in the Star Wars galaxy. It's like they completely missed the point of Yoda's Jedi teachings.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
Does anyone not agree with the following:
Luke's character arc did justice to his character and to the jedi.

Disagree. He stays and dies on an island after talking to Kylo halfway across the galaxy and buying some time for a few survivors to escape.

The first Order are an intimidating threat.

They aren't set up enough to make it really believable that they have a massive army at their command. This is more to do with how easily the republic is destroyed and how lax it was about them.

The whole chase set-up was logical and exciting.

It felt a bit contrived in the sense that there was zero plan in the initial attack except to keep charging forward despite these ships being the whole of the rebel fleet.

Holdo's motives were clear and make sense.

They don't make sense. Her thought process comes down to 'let's sacrifice everything to find a base and...'. And she refuses to communicate this too, thus Poe taking matters into his own hands which could have been avoided, so makes her come off as arrogant and authoritative.

Leia had a good character arc.

Disagree. Her doing the force thing was very strange and not set up or her abilities given reference at all. I actually have trouble remembering what her arc is in TLJ.

The humour was well timed.

I did like the humor in the movie yeah. I'll also add that I like it for what it is despite my issues with it.

The Resistance as a whole had a compelling arc.

Ehhh...they make terrible strategic decisions pretty much constantly. By the end they're less than a couple dozen people if that, and I consider it a fault of lack of strong leadership and discipline among the ranks.

The tone at the end, in the Millenium Falcon, was appropriate.

Yeah. All things considered Rey is set up well for the final episode.

There were very few logical inconsistentsies in the movie.

It's Star Wars, there are always inconsistencies

Its nice that 12 people are people are ALL thats left of the resistance.

Disagree. I know the intent is to show how desperate things have gotten, but had the Republic taken the First Order seriously, and had the Resistance not sacrificed its whole attack fleet to destroy a few star destroyers then the deaths of all but a dozen people wouldn't have had to happen.

I did not get begin to expect my expectations to be subverted halfway through the film at EVERY possible turn.

I began to expect it pretty early on once Luke reveals he intends to die on the island. After which it more or less became a game of which plot thread would be subverted and to what ends.

if you disagree with any of these you are entitled to dislike the movie.
 

Brickhunt

Member
Feb 4, 2018
999
Brazil
I seriously don't get what was so mindbreaking about Force Projection. Yoda also pulled it off light years away in the Rebels cartoon and did not die from it. If this is about solving problems in a non-violent way. I guess self-defense or defending other people from harm are manifestations of the Dark Side.

Honestly, the thing that really bothered me is that I wanted Luke to be an actual Master. Teaching Rey stuff that clearly showed her progress with the force before kicking the bucket and passing the torch to her. It felt like he only taught very basic stuff about the Force and everything else Rey showed, from mind trick and lightsaber skills, she figured out by herself without any help.

I know Luke and Rey had different upbringings, but Rey's growth as a Jedi is ridiculous. She progressed insanely fast in a few days compared to Anakin, who trained for 10 years and still lost his arm, and Luke, who had a few months/year and lost his hand.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
I know Luke and Rey had different upbringings, but Rey's growth as a Jedi is ridiculous. She progressed insanely fast in a few days compared to Anakin, who trained for 10 years and still lost his arm,

To a Sith Lord/Jedi Master that literal decades of experience on him???

The closest comparison to that battle was her facing Snoke, in which she got BODIED:

yvq7g7g09pwg.gif

The only reason she survives is because Kylo thought he could turn her, and he betrayed Snoke.

Not to mention we are shown what Kylo is capable of when he's focused, and he takes on literally twice the number of elite enforces, without taking a scracth, compared to Rey, who takes multiple hits against a single opponent.

who had a few months/year and lost his hand.

Yeah Luke lost that fight because Vader was literally toying with him.

I would also like to point out all of your examples so far have been physical fights, instead of spiritual development (which the force was shown to be in the OT, especially ESB).

Yoda tried to get Luke to lift an X-Wing after a short amount of training, and he failed because he felt it was impossible. Yoda literally tells Luke the reason he failed was because he didn't believe it could be done. This obviously means that Luke COULD have lifted the X-Wing that early if he actually believed.
 
Last edited:
Jan 3, 2018
3,406
If only there was an extended scene where she went into fight or flight and learned how to access someone's mind via the force in self defense

If that's true and the extended scene has more buildup and tension, then they should've kept the extended scene in the movie. I'm sad they didn't.

I like how literally all Rey has done is lift things with the force and force premonition, again, something literal babies and children can do without even knowing what the force is. Yet she's supposed to be a master. When she literally couldn't stand a chance against Snoke.

Literal babies can use Jedi mind tricks? I haven't seen all the Star Wars movies, but I guess if I saw that I would roll my eyes.

No, JJ doesn't ignore proper buildup, instead, he relies on showing instead of telling, all the information you need is shown via visual/audio.

Well let's take the Rey Learns Jedi Mind Tricks scene. Here, I'm not really talking about getting information. I'm talking about execution, building tension, etc. Apparently you agree that the scene in the movie is lacking because you cited the extended scene as superior?

It's almost like Rey isn't Luke and isn't as helpless as he is at the start of her journey due to their literal opposite upbringings.

True, they are different characters. I'm just stating the reasons some people think Rey is poorly written, or don't attach to her character. If you find her compelling, that's fine.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,707
I've been very careful not to say "every conflict," but yes many conflicts. I have said before that she gets captured, (but thanks for informing me again) and I like that she got captured, because I want to see how she cleverly gets out of it, hopefully with some build up of tension, but nope. I mean, people dislike Deus Ex Machinas right? Isn't this scene pretty much one of those? Her using Jedi tricks to escape comes almost out of nowhere. So when I watch it, instead of thinking, "oh she's clever," I'm thinking "Oh, the writers didn't know how to get her out of it, so they used the force."
No, it isn't a Deus ex machina. You can see her observing and slowly comprehending what Kylo Ren is doing and turning it back on him. It's basically observational learning.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Well let's take the Rey Learns Jedi Mind Tricks scene. Here, I'm not really talking about getting information. I'm talking about execution, building tension, etc. Apparently you agree that the scene in the movie is lacking because you cited the extended scene as superior?

Are you being sarcastic? He's saying that the interrogation scene was lengthy. It's very tense. It's probably the best scene in the movie.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
Well let's take the Rey Learns Jedi Mind Tricks scene. Here, I'm not really talking about getting information. I'm talking about execution, building tension, etc. Apparently you agree that the scene in the movie is lacking because you cited the extended scene as superior?
I'm pretty sure what Eden meant was that the interrogation (a scene that went on for a few minutes hence extended scene) set up how she figured it out. The scene in the movie was a prolonged scene setting up the payoff.

No, it isn't a Deus ex machina. You can see her observing and slowly comprehending what Kylo Ren is doing and turning it back on him. It's basically observational learning.
Yup, which frankly is a skill that absolutely makes sense for a character like her to have. You don't survive a harsh planet/living circumstance without picking up on things from people that have survived longer.

If I was trapped on Jakku, one of my primary priorities would be to observe the locals as much as possible to figure out what the fuck I have to do to survive.

But... Didn't Rian give Luke the spotlight for TLJ?

I mean not really? Like he absolutely has a large role in the movie and has a prominent character arch, but Rey was still the protagonist, the catalyst, and effectively the future.

I think the comment you're replying to felt that having the three reunited would likely overshadow anything else about the new characters, which is why JJ split them.

I don't necessarily think it would be impossible to avoid overshadowing the new cast with all three, but I can imagine it would be ridiculously difficult, especially because you would want to give each character enough time to flesh out further and have their own archs etc.
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,386
If that's true and the extended scene has more buildup and tension, then they should've kept the extended scene in the movie. I'm sad they didn't.
I see your sarcasm detector functions as well as your ability to follow visual storytelling.

Literal babies can use Jedi mind tricks? I haven't seen all the Star Wars movies, but I guess if I saw that I would roll my eyes.
This isn't how it works:
kq3Ic76.jpg


Well let's take the Rey Learns Jedi Mind Tricks scene. Here, I'm not really talking about getting information. I'm talking about execution, building tension, etc. Apparently you agree that the scene in the movie is lacking because you cited the extended scene as superior?
Again, you missed the sarcasm. They literally show how Rey learned about a mind trick. It's one of the best scenes in the film.

True, they are different characters. I'm just stating the reasons some people think Rey is poorly written, or don't attach to her character.
People think Rey is poorly written because they adhere to Luke being a template. It's no surprise that a bunch of dudes holding Rey up to insane amounts of scrutiny that the films themselves go out of their way to address don't attach to the character.
 
Jan 3, 2018
3,406
Are you being sarcastic? He's saying that the interrogation scene was lengthy. It's very tense. It's probably the best scene in the movie.

Wait, that's the "extended" scene? It lasts like 3 minutes! So she teaches herself how to reverse engineer his Force-Mind-read in the span of 3 minutes, and then she also teaches herself how to Force-mind-influence in the next 10. I guess I considered them 2 different skills, but if people connect them both, then it's not a Deux Ex Machina, but it is still pretty lazy.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,707
Look, here's the thing that makes talking about the Force in SW so frustrating and why there is never going to be a consensus: People think there are some bedrock, hard rules of the Force that have been established in clear defined terms and they cannot be changed.

What we actually know, for sure, about how the force works is pretty vague and sketchy because the force is both based on and deliberately described as this esoteric, numinous concept. It's supposed to be like trying to describe Nirvana or Enlightenment. It's like being asked to define "justice" or "evil" or "love". These things (metaphysically, anyway) exist and you can talk about these things and you can decide to point to some things that are definitely not it, but you can't write them up in defined terms that account for all instances and even if you could those defined terms wouldn't be applicable to everyone because they're subjective. The force is a sort of meta concept that has been made into a sort of law of physics in the SW universe, but by it's very nature, you can't actually say what it directly is.

That's why whenever it's talked about, it's talked about in these mystic ways. It's an energy, but it also has a will. You control it, but it controls you. It's all around, everywhere, around you, through you, within you. It's life and it's death and it's everything inbetween.

But people don't think that. They think if you get a certain amount of training, well then, obviously you will be will reliably and ably always be able to do use it in the way you were trained to do so. People think it's a physical tool, a calculator, where if you put in a certain equation then the same answer will come out, regardless of anything else. And more than that, they think they've mastered this tool and understand it's inner workings.

The audience does not understand the force. Not you, not me, not anyone, because the force is meant to be ineffable. It's not meant to be understood. Only felt and intuitioned and connected with.

And if you really want to talk about it in definite terms, it's important to understand that it's also a storytelling mechanic. It's based on real life esoteric asian religious beliefs like Wu Wei and Tao, but even if those things exist on some level in real life, the force does not. As such, it being a storytelling device by nature means that the nature of hte force changes with it's writer. It can honestly be anything, which is why it's midiclorians in the PT and light and dark in the OT and Life and Death in the NT. It depends on what the writer wants it to be. This is obstensively true of all narrative elements, but especially true of elements that are intentionally ineffable like the Force.

So in regards to things like Rey turning the tables on Kylo Ren, if you really aren't satisfied with that scene, that's your take and you can have it. However, it's simply wrong to frame the reason for it as it violating how the force is meant to work. True, Rey learning how to use the force while being attacked by it is the first time we see a force user learn how to use the force under such conditions, unlike Luke who had to be instructed for his learning. However, nothing says that it's impossible for someone to learn the force this way, and you can clearly see the narrative structure of how the scene plays out:

Kylo Ren takes off his helmet for the first time, visually showing him letting down his guard because he doesn't perceive a tied up Rey as a threat. He takes his time and toys with her mind. Rey is adament in resisting, pushing back against him however she can, which she is successful in doing so as Kylo Ren cannot get to the information he wants. So he pushes harder, still not seeing her as a threat, but Rey begins to push back and she intuitively starts to feel the cracks. The same way he picked at her insecurities, she can now feel his, and she knows that he wants to and cannot be as strong as Darth Vader. She eventually wins out, which makes sense as Kylo Ren has a far more fragile psyche than she is. We know this because we saw before how he lost his shit whenever something didn't go his way, and it just happened again. Rey put up a greater challenge than he expected and once she got a dig at him in (only one, compared to the numerous digs he got on her), he backed off, showing that for all his bravado and potential force power, he is simply not stable enough to take her on a mental level, atleast not if he's not gonna take her seriously.

Whether you like it or not, the narrative structure of how the scene plays out is sound. Rey sees, learns, and fights. Kylo lets his guard down, gets an unexpected mental blow from it, is shaken and backs off. The force works in terms of emotion and mental framework, which is how it plays out here. We, as the audience, therefore learn more about Kylo Ren's character and the status of Rey. And if you really want to criticize this scene, it's reasonable to do so by construing how it could have told the story it was trying to tell more effectively.

However, most criticism seems to boil down to "The force isn't working how I know it's supposed to" which is a criticism that simply cannot work because no one actually knows how the force works because it's a storytelling device, not a real observable phenomenon you can scientifically observe.
 
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Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
Wait, that's the "extended" scene? It lasts like 3 minutes! So she teaches herself how to reverse engineer his Force-Mind-read in the span of 3 minutes, and then she also teaches herself how to Force-mind-influence in the next 10. I guess I considered them 2 different skills, but if people connect them both, then it's not a Deux Ex Machina, but it is still pretty lazy.
Luke literally learned how to force pull in like 1 minute, despite not even having heard or thought such a thing was possible before, hanging upside down and suffering from a CONCUSSION.

Rey grew up literally hearing stories about Luke the Jedi that could lift rocks, and manipulate minds and wills.

Also 3 minutes for a movie is a pretty long ass time to dedicate to a single scene.

Look, here's the thing that makes talking about the Force in SW so frustrating and why there is never going to be a consensus: People think there are some bedrock, hard rules of the Force that have been established in clear defined terms and they cannot be changed.

What we actually know, for sure, about how the force works is pretty vague and sketchy because the force is both based on and deliberately described as this esoteric, numinous concept. It's supposed to be like trying to describe Nirvana or Enlightenment. It's like being asked to define "justice" or "evil" or "love". These things (metaphysically, anyway) exist and you can talk about these things and you can decide to point to some things that are definitely not it, but you can't write them up in defined terms that account for all instances and even if you could those defined terms wouldn't be applicable to everyone because they're subjective. The force is a sort of meta concept that has been made into a sort of law of physics in the SW universe, but by it's very nature, you can't actually say what it directly is.

That's why whenever it's talked about, it's talked about in these mystic ways. It's an energy, but it also has a will. You control it, but it controls you. It's all around, everywhere, around you, through you, within you. It's life and it's death and it's everything inbetween.

But people don't think that. They think if you get a certain amount of training, well then, obviously you will be will reliably and ably always be able to do use it in the way you were trained to do so. People think it's a physical tool, a calculator, where if you put in a certain equation then the same answer will come out, regardless of anything else. And more than that, they think they've mastered this tool and understand it's inner workings.

The audience does not understand the force. Not you, not me, not anyone, because the force is meant to be ineffable. It's not meant to be understood. Only felt and intuitioned and connected with.

And if you really want to talk about it in definite terms, it's important to understand that it's also a storytelling mechanic. It's based on real life esoteric asian religious beliefs like Wu Wei and Tao, but even if those things exist on some level in real life, the force does not. As such, it being a storytelling device by nature means that the nature of hte force changes with it's writer. It can honestly be anything, which is why it's midiclorians in the PT and light and dark in the OT and Life and Death in the NT. It depends on what the writer wants it to be. This is obstensively true of all narrative elements, but especially true of elements that lack defined, concrete terminology like the Force.

So in regards to things like Rey turning the tables on Kylo Ren, if you really aren't satisfied with that scene, that's your take and you can have it. However, it's simply wrong to frame the reason for it as it violating how the force is meant to work. True, Rey learning how to use the force while being attacked by it is the first time we see a force user learn how to use the force under such conditions, unlike Luke who had to be instructed for his learning. However, nothing says that it's impossible for someone to learn the force this way, and you can clearly see the narrative structure of how the scene plays out:

Kylo Ren takes off his helmet for the first time, visually showing him letting down his guard because he doesn't perceive a tied up Rey as a threat. He takes his time and toys with her mind. Rey is adament in resisting, pushing back against him however she can, which she is successful in doing so as Kylo Ren cannot get to the information he wants. So he pushes harder, still not seeing her as a threat, but Rey begins to push back and she intuitively starts to feel the cracks. The same way he picked at her insecurities, she can now feel his, and she knows that he wants to and cannot be as strong as Darth Vader. She eventually wins out, which makes sense as Kylo Ren has a far more fragile psyche than she is. We know this because we saw before how he lost his shit whenever something didn't go his way, and it just happened again. Rey put up a greater challenge than he expected and once she got a dig at him in (only one, compared to the numerous digs he got on her), he backed off, showing that for all his bravado and potential force power, he is simply not stable enough to take her on a mental level.

Whether you like it or not, the narrative structure of how the scene plays out is sound. Rey sees, learns, and fights. Kylo lets his guard down, gets an unexpected mental blow from it, is shaken and backs off. The force works in terms of emotion and mental framework, which is how it plays out here. We, as the audience, therefore learn more about Kylo Ren's character and the status of Rey. And if you really want to criticize this scene, it's reasonable to do so by construing how it could have told the story it was trying to tell more effectively.

However, most criticism seems to boil down to "The force isn't working how I know it's supposed to" which is a criticism that simply cannot work because no one actually knows how the force works because it's a storytelling device, not a real observable phenomenon you can scientifically observe.
I love every one of your posts lol, you have a very concise and effective way of explaining your ideas.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
I can probably sum the force up in a way everybody can understand. It's a canon deus ex machina.