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Mark Hamill Once Again Expresses Unhappiness With New ‘Star Wars’ Sequels
- Thread starter Bor Gullet
- Start date
Rian's handling of episode 8 just seems odd in hindsight.
They really should have had the new trilogy far removed from the original. But Disney banked heavily on nostalgia it seems.
They really should have had the new trilogy far removed from the original. But Disney banked heavily on nostalgia it seems.
Then don't dump on those characters to prop up the new ones
The new characters are fine without it.
(except Kylo needed asspulls for reasoning)
Disney probably can't wait to get away from the Skywalker saga so they can do their own thing and not be so restricted. Tonally they could do something more like Guardians of the Galaxy going forward that's a bit more "hip".
I think the Hobbit is an example of how it can go wrong. When Del Toro left the project Jackson was parachuted in without the 3 years of prep he had for LOTR.
Disney rushed it and didn't deliver the quality it needed.
The Force Awakens did a great job of setting up the future instalments, Harrison gone as wanted, new characters introduced nicely. The Knights of Ren, Rey's parents. Luke.
It was all there.
Then they farted out TLJ.
I kinda suspect the rough story beats would be about the same ... Luke dies in VIII even with JJ directing I think. Now how he gets there would probably have been different, he'd have been grumpy for a couple of scenes and then agreed to train Rey and probably come back physically. But, otherwise you keep having dual protagonists if he's around and he probably has to be more powerful than Rey.
They should have had at least 3 year gaps between films, that probably would've helped too.
I agree, Rians vision was way off. I hated this film and it ruined a lot of what they built up in the first one. Really sad, it had so much potential, i dont know how the last episode can save it really...
I don't really think there's much said there that he hasn't said before. I think too much is being made of this purely because he's said it in public. I imagine pretty much any film ever made has disagreements between the cast and the director/writer.
The problem for me is that even before The Force Awakens was filmed they were bigging up the inclusion of the original cast. Hell, the 'big' shots from both the teaser and the main trailer were, respectively, a shot of the Millenium Falcon and Han Solo & Chewbacca on the Millenium Falcon. In reality the new films have been about a new group of characters with the OG ones in support roles.
The problem for me is that even before The Force Awakens was filmed they were bigging up the inclusion of the original cast. Hell, the 'big' shots from both the teaser and the main trailer were, respectively, a shot of the Millenium Falcon and Han Solo & Chewbacca on the Millenium Falcon. In reality the new films have been about a new group of characters with the OG ones in support roles.
All in all it sounded like Disney sort of messed up having their cake and eating it too.
- They wanted to court the original Star Wars fans by keeping the whole Skywalker legacy and everything and also build something new.
- Them scrapping the EU sort of shows that they didn't want to make the stories Skywalker based sort of like Lucas and co did back when it was all notes in comics, novels, and what not.
- Rather than be bold and start completely fresh, they wanted to bring back the original cast and set a story that involved some of the original cast for nostalgia's sake.
- Hamill isn't wrong, he agrees that the focus should have been on the new generation and everything. In fact he would have been fine if they make the story with an entirely new generation and he states in the interview. I think his grumble is that they managed to bring all of them back and it wasn't just cameos. They marketed it as a continuation and probably sold it to him as it's them handing the torch to the next generation. I wouldn't think given that an expectation of a reunion was out of expectation. It was probably sold to him that way and it didn't match. He's not happy with that but he doesn't have a problem with their direction or story. I guess in his case is that he probably wishes they were honest with him.
- He is right about the timing and spacing of the films. 2 year gaps would not be bad in the 70s or 80s though in today's era it's not ideal. Disney probably didn't change the slots because of how weirdly packed it is and how much money the first newquel film made. They forgot that we live in a day of excessive marketing. When Star Wars came out it was one of the first 'blockbusters' if not the very first one. These days we have many blockbusters and films making billions or getting quite close every year. Most of them from Disney owned studios/properties. Fatigue is easily possible.
- They shouldn't have tried a let's market to everyone or tell a story to everyone but rather focused on building the new world as they wanted. If they didn't do that we wouldn't have a the unnecessary negative response (it would still be there but I suspect the volume would have been less after the first film done that way. Similarly I expect/hope the response for 3 isn't negative. If people don't like it that's fine. We don't need to like everything.)
- The pointless noise online is tedious
- Some of the stuff Rian did after hiring the legacy actors was a bit shitty but that's mostly the producers fault for giving such conflicting ideas of what the vision should be and not the cast or director. That's a management issue.
But thats how the sold the movie at first. The tease were Han and Chewbacca.
Everybody wanted star wars back. Not hating the new characters, but the old ones needed more time and spotlight.
That is for me the single biggest flaws of the movies. Everybody wanted to see them together one more time. That single moment will always be a missed opportunity to please the fans.
I bet he keeps that moment dearly in his mind, and it is awesome that it will always be there for him to watch it.
For me the biggest problem is just how small their characters were. True TLJ is Luke's movie, more than anyone else, but even tho I like the new characters, there is feeling like Luke and Leia didn't pass the torch to the new guys, but they were just there to take it, good from the get go.
So your proof that Trevorrow quit Episode IX comes from a story that gets its information from some random clown's YouTube video?
And the same story references the much more believable story that Trevorrow was fired due to being difficult to work with (not to mention he had just released the bomb known as The Book of Henry).
That's not proof.
This is something I immediately felt after TLJ but Luke in that film compared to Han in TFA got handed the short end of the stick characterisation wise. And a big part in this is of course that Kasdan co-wrote TFA but when you look at Han in that film you get a complete character, every part that makes him who he is is highlighted. The smuggler, the gunslinger, the pilot, the scoundrel with a heart of gold and in addition to that gets expanded with his role as a failure to his son.
Then you have Luke in TLJ and Johnson wrote him just as this jaded failure of a Jedi Master. But forgot everything else that made the character. Like I would've loved a sequence where Rey and Luke would have bonded over their love for starships, stemming from a need to get away, or even just talking about flying. Or that he would fall back on his skills he picked up from his Uncle as a farm boy. At the end of TLJ I was left with the feeling I just saw a part of what made that character, and while that part was well done I couldn't shake the feeling something was missing.
Then you have Luke in TLJ and Johnson wrote him just as this jaded failure of a Jedi Master. But forgot everything else that made the character. Like I would've loved a sequence where Rey and Luke would have bonded over their love for starships, stemming from a need to get away, or even just talking about flying. Or that he would fall back on his skills he picked up from his Uncle as a farm boy. At the end of TLJ I was left with the feeling I just saw a part of what made that character, and while that part was well done I couldn't shake the feeling something was missing.
Marik Hamill is probably a sexist alt-right troll, right?
/sarcasm
He doesn't like what they've done with the legacy of Star Wars and it's hard not to agree with his points. You may argue his points aren't important (I strongly disagree), but they are 100% correct.
/sarcasm
He doesn't like what they've done with the legacy of Star Wars and it's hard not to agree with his points. You may argue his points aren't important (I strongly disagree), but they are 100% correct.
I'm going to try (and fail) to be brief:
The OT kicks off by taking Luke on a bog standard hero's journey. As a young hothead who wants to escape farm life and his backwater planet, he's carried far by natural ability and the right mentor, Obi-Wan. ANH concludes with Luke triumphant: he overcomes his doubts, for the moment, and wins a major victory for the Rebellion.
In ESB, Luke has developed basic Force ability. He acquires a new mentor in Yoda, and in the Force nexus of the Dagobah cave he experiences a memorable reminder of his tendency for self-sabotage and how that might lead him to walk Vader's path. But his old stubborn impulsiveness flares up and he rushes off to save his friends with insufficient training. Luke is broken by Vader. His newfound strength in the Force is useless against a more experienced opponent, and he's devastated by Obi-Wan's apparent betrayal in failing to reveal that Vader is Luke's father. He is left physically ravaged and mentally defeated. The whole Cloud City episode leaves Luke, Han, and Leia at their lowest point in the trilogy.
In RotJ, Luke is more confident in his Force ability, and he has accepted the disturbing truth of his lineage. He returns to Yoda to complete his training, just in time for Yoda to die. Untrained but somewhat more experienced, Luke makes the same mistake he did in ESB by overestimating his abilities and throwing himself at a superior opponent. The Emperor dominates him completely, cutting through Luke's rhetoric, eroding Luke's confidence in his allies, baiting Luke to attack, and ultimately pitting father against son in a duel where either of their losses is Palpatine's gain. Yet again, Luke's undisciplined nature costs him dearly. He unwittingly betrays Leia to Vader, then flies into a rage when Vader suggests she might be a softer target than Luke. Luke's heroic moment of self-sacrifice, where he refuses to execute and supplant his father, is Luke making the very best of his own failure. Luke is immediately cut down by the Emperor and would have died if Vader's own inner conflict hadn't fallen in his son's favor.
Luke, the last living Jedi, is a man defined by his flaws. It's only through the support of his friends, and his ability to get through to an already conflicted Vader, that he's able to salvage his failures and secure a future for his cause. The more noble aspects of his character shine throughout the trilogy, and make him a likeable and sympathetic hero. But he is not an infallible and wise leader. He does not demonstrate superb insight or judgment. He is not a brilliant duelist, or a near-omnipotent Force wizard. He is just a man with some natural talent, and a lot of support, who persevered.
That's where RotJ leaves Luke.
TLJ picks up a few decades on. We find Luke in self-imposed exile, resigned and depressed after suffering what he views as his greatest and most personal failure of all. Luke had resisted the dark tendencies of his bloodline enough to prevail, but only just, in the battle for his father's soul. But now, he has contributed to the fall of his nephew. Kylo's descent into darkness wasn't Luke's doing, but the impulsive nature that Luke could never escape surfaced again at the worst possible time. Luke's momentary temptation to strike down Kylo in his sleep tipped Kylo over the edge. Luke, on his lonely island, sees himself as a failure and an imposter. How could he possibly measure up to Luke Skywalker, the towering Jedi of legend, when he has let his friends and family down, and the next generation of Jedi was lost under his watch?
TLJ brings this theme of failure into focus, lending Luke's journey a complexity and pathos that the OT happily glossed over in its highly entertaining but fairly surface-level storytelling. The crucial character development is this: Luke, cursed by failure all his life in spite of his great victories, finally develops the wisdom to accept that failure is not to be feared or resented. It is inevitable. Failure is the key ingredient for growth, and it forms necessary stepping stones toward true success: discovering a higher purpose for the pitfalls and disappointments of life, and passing on a worthy legacy.
By the end of TLJ, Luke has stopped running. He reconnects with the Force, reunites with his sister, and demonstrates the greatest feat of Force mastery in all eight films--hinting at his true potential as the Chosen One--with a Force hologram that transcends the limits of space-time. Now fully stepping into the role of Luke Skywalker the legend, he very publicly reinforces his image as an invincible Jedi master, buying time for the Resistance to escape and planting seeds of hope throughout the galaxy. This act culminates in Luke becoming one with the Force, which only true masters can achieve.
Luke dies having won in every way that matters:
- He secured the Resistance's escape.
- He humiliated Kylo in front of his army and damaged their morale by appearing to be supernaturally resistant to weapons.
- He inspired his protege, Rey, to revive the Jedi Order not just by the letter, but in spirit.
- He primed galactic civilization for her message, and made his own legend a powerful rallying point for the resistance of tyranny.
- He became a true Jedi master after a lifetime of struggle.
- He made peace with himself.
Rewatch TLJ and see if this interpretation holds up. It's all right there in the text. If anything, Yoda's scene gives up the game, in case the subtext wasn't clear enough. Perhaps he should have said more!
Not having the crew back together is idd sad, but I think it's the consequence of good, dramatic choices. Han's death made sense in the character growth of both Kylo and Rey, and Luke's sacrifice is what's needed to give the batton over to Rey (it also offers a beautiful closure to his arc, where he goes out in the most Jedi way possible). I have a good story above a cool reunion any time.
True. JJ didn't want to do it at first. The article you post explains in detail why he didn't (he didn't want to do another sequel), and then what convinced him anyway. The fact he wanted to do it after talking about what the movie could be, how it could explore the myths of the heroes and how it could look at them trough the eyes of a new character, actually shows us he wasn't reluctant at all to make TFA. He was excited to do it. He wanted to tell that story.
And sorry, for your second argument you literaly use the speculations of a Youtuber based on some vague statements by Mark Hamill in an interview (where Hamill even says: I don't know what happened, ignorance is bliss)? That's ridiculous.
Ugh. The 'subvert expectations' argument again. I feel like it's one of the most misunderstood and pulled out of context statements. He's not talking about the subverting the expextations of the audience for the sake of being different or to suprise. He talks about generating the most possible drama, to challenge the characters and force them to change.
So no, he didn't go about 'subverting expextations' by thinking: what will suprise the audience the most and what don't they expect. He asked himself where he wanted to characters to go, and what would be the most dramatic for them. He asked himself what the hardest thing for them would be to learn and experience. Thus, Rey encountering a Luke who is unwilling to teach her and has cut himself of the Force (the oposite of what she expected, thus subverting her expectations). Also Rey learning her parents aren't coming back and aren't important (a hard truth she didn't want to see before), etc.
All these choices do make sense. Luke cutting himself of is what TFA tells us right from the opening crawl. There is no canonical need for Rey to be a Kenobi or whatever, and it would be dramatically less interesting if it was that way. Snoke being killed of is suprising, but it is a big character moment for Kylo which forces him out of the teacher-aprentice dynamic.
It not only leads to the audience being suprised at times (which is amplified here because of all the head canon people tend to have with Star Wars), it first and foremost leads to the most drama and thus a better story.
It's all in this interview, which iirc 'subverting expextations' is first talked about (it's close to the release of the film): https://www.slashfilm.com/rian-johnson-last-jedi-spoiler-interview/
True. JJ didn't want to do it at first. The article you post explains in detail why he didn't (he didn't want to do another sequel), and then what convinced him anyway. The fact he wanted to do it after talking about what the movie could be, how it could explore the myths of the heroes and how it could look at them trough the eyes of a new character, actually shows us he wasn't reluctant at all to make TFA. He was excited to do it. He wanted to tell that story.
And sorry, for your second argument you literaly use the speculations of a Youtuber based on some vague statements by Mark Hamill in an interview (where Hamill even says: I don't know what happened, ignorance is bliss)? That's ridiculous.
Ugh. The 'subvert expectations' argument again. I feel like it's one of the most misunderstood and pulled out of context statements. He's not talking about the subverting the expextations of the audience for the sake of being different or to suprise. He talks about generating the most possible drama, to challenge the characters and force them to change.
So no, he didn't go about 'subverting expextations' by thinking: what will suprise the audience the most and what don't they expect. He asked himself where he wanted to characters to go, and what would be the most dramatic for them. He asked himself what the hardest thing for them would be to learn and experience. Thus, Rey encountering a Luke who is unwilling to teach her and has cut himself of the Force (the oposite of what she expected, thus subverting her expectations). Also Rey learning her parents aren't coming back and aren't important (a hard truth she didn't want to see before), etc.
All these choices do make sense. Luke cutting himself of is what TFA tells us right from the opening crawl. There is no canonical need for Rey to be a Kenobi or whatever, and it would be dramatically less interesting if it was that way. Snoke being killed of is suprising, but it is a big character moment for Kylo which forces him out of the teacher-aprentice dynamic.
It not only leads to the audience being suprised at times (which is amplified here because of all the head canon people tend to have with Star Wars), it first and foremost leads to the most drama and thus a better story.
It's all in this interview, which iirc 'subverting expextations' is first talked about (it's close to the release of the film): https://www.slashfilm.com/rian-johnson-last-jedi-spoiler-interview/
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Yeah, so far the new trilogy has been really bad far as I'm concerned. He is right in my opinion. New trilogy feels rushed out and a bit soulless due to shit like this
Should have just had the new trilogy set hundreds of years in the future. Would have avoided all of this.
Depending on how the films were shot, "living the role" can mean experiencing a dizzying flurry of disconnected and partial scenes with no discernible order. Many films take shape in the editing room.
Eh, this is how it works. Some people are so blinded by their fanatical obsession with the movies that they refuse to acknowledge it has any flaws at all. I don't get it at all.
Mark Hamill shares a lot of concerns with the sequel trilogy with many of the people that have issues with them for sensible reasons rather than sexist ones, but of course even his opinion is being dismissed out of hand because criticising the sequel trilogy is apparently like insulting someone's mother.
The OT crew got done dirty. Simple as that. They didn't even get one scene together and each movie has killed them off one at a time. It's extremely disappointing and clearly even the guy who portrays Luke Skywalker himself thinks the same. We all expected more, I think, and I can't help but feel as though the sequel trilogy cares less about its legacy than even the prequel trilogy did. Maybe that's because George Lucas actually cared about his franchise, regardless of whether or not he was any good at actually making the movies themselves.
I guess Mark Hamill is just a nerd who is angry the sequel trilogy doesn't fit his "headcanon", though. That's what was said about the rest of us, right?
Is the 2 years of rage no a clue?
Star Wars OT fans are the new Transformers G1 is the best fans.
Hamill obviously is more in touch with the character than most cases where this would be accurate, if simply by the virtue of actually caring and remembering things even the film makers forgot.
It's funny how the narrative here shifted from Lucasfilm as free reigns to Disney fucked up some things.
Come to think of it, there is a certain symmetry between OT diehards vs Sequel fans, and G1-ers vs the correct, cultured, and marvelously attractive fans of Beast Wars.
They wanted to cash in on the nostalgia of the original trilogy, I assume. I can't think of any other reason why they'd even bring in the old gang only to misuse them horribly and then kill them off one by one. As Quacktion says above, it's as though the screenwriters for the sequel trilogy didn't actually care about the little details.
So I agree with you. The new cast is actually pretty fantastic, so they should have just set the movies centuries after Luke and the gang saved the galaxy and achieved peace. Then instead of Yoda showing up to give Luke a little nudge, they could've had Luke show up to give someone else the same nudge.
Like many I have my problems with the new trilogy and agree with him. But I also think that the film (TLJ) as is, handled his character very well by not giving into the legend of Luke, but rather the flawed character from the OT trilogy.
Oh well, can't have it all I guess.
Oh well, can't have it all I guess.
Actually, notice how we've gone from "the sequel trilogy is super faithful to the original trilogy and only fans of the prequel trilogy have issues with it" to "fans of the original trilogy need to let it go because they're acting like Transformers G1 fans".
I'm sure things will be taken out of context as usual. Some Youtube channels will get a month's worth of content out of this. Funny, how his past his past quote about TLJ being a great movie, never seems to get much traction. Shit stirring sells.
Just to be clear, Mark never says he thinks the new movies are bad, just that he would have done things differently. That's cool. I'm sure J J Abrams would have done things differently in EP 8 as well, but it was not his movie to make.
And if the big three did have a scene together, rest assured, half the internet would have moaned about how it was cheap 'fan service'.
Just to be clear, Mark never says he thinks the new movies are bad, just that he would have done things differently. That's cool. I'm sure J J Abrams would have done things differently in EP 8 as well, but it was not his movie to make.
And if the big three did have a scene together, rest assured, half the internet would have moaned about how it was cheap 'fan service'.
Lol at the 3PO bit. Don't really blame Rain Johnson for overlooking that though - does anyone really care about 3PO, haha? Would have been nowhere as egregious as Leia blanking Chewie in Force Awakens. Plus there would have been the excuse of Luke conserving as much energy as he could given how knackering projecting himself across the galaxy must be - of course he'd make a bee-line to his sister!
Remember in that black and white photo where the entire cast is sitting together?
The classic characters don't meet up at all.
The new characters didn't meet until the end of the 2nd movie.
Hahahahahahahaha
The classic characters don't meet up at all.
The new characters didn't meet until the end of the 2nd movie.
Hahahahahahahaha
1) You can try to rationalize the themes as much as you want, the facts are that Luke ran away like a coward, left his friends and family to a miserable fate, and doomed the entire galaxy because of a mistake he made. You said Luke persevered in the OT, where was that spirit ? So he was crushed moreso than in the OT, okay, but do you really think he would just leave for years, and let everybody die, and then randomly have an epiphany 5 hours after meeting some random girl ?
And obviously you love it, so you are thinking "yes", but do you really think this is the kind of story Luke Skywalker deserved ? You could have kept the exact same kind of beats, but making it good, by giving more context, and giving more reasons as to how it came to be. What we got was far too convenient and it came off as cheap for many of us.
You say the OT was shallow and surface level, but that's not true, Luke's journey wasn't flat at all. All those characters flaws, they're never "glossed over", that's literally the entire point of the movies, Empire is all about Luke failing, and ROTJ also has Luke having to deal with his own shortcomings.
But what made him the hero, is that he never gave up on people, and fought for his friends and family.
If you want Luke to run away, this is fine, you can also absolutely go the original intended way where the place was strong in the Force and it made him more powerful but he got crazier, that's the easy lazy way to handle it, but you could have made his departure more acceptable by either showing him trying harder, or actually feeling like hope was coming in some way, and that it wasn't his time anymore.
You can't have him be there because "I came here to die".
2) Again, it's all about execution. All your talk of character development and his accomplishment is nice and all, but if that hadn't happened so quickly and in such manner, maybe we would have been more content with what we got ?
As it is we just saw our favorite hero of all time turn into a miserable coward, get back to his senses and... literally die 3 minutes later.
So ok he inspired the resistance to keep fighting (and btw not sure taunting Kylo and making him more mad was the way to go but that's another story), but like there's 12 people left in the resistance ... Everybody died and literally half the galaxy was obliterated because he didn't do anything.
Like Mark said "Luke wouldn't just give up..." if you want to write this, you have to convince us. If everything comes from this, it has to be convincing.
And for many fans, this was not. It simply wasn't.
I understand where you're coming from, and I wish I could accept this as a satisfactory conclusion, but I can't, because the movie didn't manage to sell me on this story. Too little time spent on the actual details that would have made it work, to just focus on "themes".
But the themes couldn't reach me because the premise was flawed and I couldn't buy into it.
So all I'm left with, is bitterness that my favorite hero turned into this, to get his pseudo redemption 3 minutes before the end, then dies.
If he hadn't died (save that for IX or whatever) I think many people could at least tolerate this thing. But here it just doesn't work.
Cause that's my problem.
Everyone that loves the movie, if Luke hadn't died in the last 30 seconds, you would still love this movie. But people like me would at least be interested to see where it all goes in the next film. As opposed to being in disbelief that this happened the way it did and having nothing to look forward to anymore.
- Kylo and Rey's fascinating connection ? "snoke did it lulz"
- Rey's incredible and unprecedented talent ? "she's a nobody that barely ever trained just deal with it lulz"
- Luke Skywalker's comeback ? "aaand it's gone lulz"
- Leia sadly can't do much because of the sad circumstances
- Finn and Poe have literally no story. They do not have a single plot line. They have nothing. They are cool characters in TFA but I struggle to think of anything I can look forward to besides them just interacting with each other. Which is fine but going into a final episode that's an issue.
- Snoke hahaha
- Kylo and Rey's gray area that was literally the best part in the movie, amazing build up, that was thrown out in 3 minutes to regress back to the status quo
- The Final Showdown of Rey vs Kylo ... Except Kylo has been outperformed every single time so far so yeah not exactly a long time coming ...
- The conclusion of the "Skywalker saga" that manages to completely ignore Anakin out of prequel disdain, making the entire thing inconsistent
It's rough man. And I fully understand that you're still super excited but this movie could have met us halfway, and you would still be super excited.
Instead people like me are done with it. "If you're done why don't you just move on" because that was part of our life for SO LONG, it's so hard to not be frustrated, barely a year later.
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Yeah of course people care about C3P0...he an iconic star wars character...literally the first speaking character introduced
