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Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
I'm not even joking in the slightest.

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Mario Party (in the generic sense) is the quintessential video game. It came out of nowhere and didn't ape anything, as far as I know, except looking at the true, closest sibling of video games: board games, and fashions itself to be what they wish they were - no need for tokens, dice, and facsimiles of what you're trying to approximate and gamify. Story, levels, progression - these things are nice and satisfying, but they're not innately qualities of this medium. Just give the players a clear, understandable goal, make it random enough so in a way anybody could be the underdog and win in a surprising upset, but also give them just enough power to play the long game and make strategic choices to influence the final outcome to give you that deeper satisfaction. That's a game. A true game.

It's marvellous. It's obvious.

Then, take that simplified strategy and layer on madcap challenges that are only really possible in this medium. In a truly authentic way, the ethos of Super Mario Bros. 3, the timeless king of the classics, always blowing your mind with what fresh mechanic was around the next corner, intelligently translated into the shell of this simple strategy game. It had never been done before and played on the strengths to create a whole genre. Did it get any credit for this? I'm not sure it did.

There was and still is a time when we dreaded the horrific "minigame". How could a designer waste their time crafting something of lesser depth, attempting to spin plates, confusing us with constant and changing control schemes. Why would they bother? It could only be mistaken priorities. But this variety is the crux of the whole thing and while maybe some games have failed at it, Mario Party has just enough focus and quality to pull it off. Everyone read Calvin and Hobbes and saw "Calvinball" and thought "wow, I wish I could play that"... and then can't see this is the closest we've ever come to an ideal. Mario Party is the ideal. You're playing a breezy board game but the next moment you're in the sky, hanging from an umbrella, comically opening and shutting it to stay your descent. The next moment, you're a manning a team of spotlights, and must coordinate to take down a swimmer who's against all odds. And then, you're balancing on balls trying to bump each other off into the lava below. Now, the game simply wants you to dance, but not when your opponent dances. Suddenly, you land on a space, and a giant squid tries to vacuum you up. A mole pops up, and asks you to play whack-a-mole. Now, it's night time, and the rules turn on their head.

It's creativity exemplified. It's a slice of everything a video game could be, but never will be. Genres that will never be satisfied, but it's all possible here. Even if it had sold nothing it would be no surprise it had 15+ sequels because the canvas is endless. In a way, it doesn't go far enough. I want to sing the sorry song and touch the opposite pole and find the bonus box. That's what a video game can do in ways nothing else can and Mario Party knew it.

And the real genius of it is really, truly, this is an opportunity for everyone to compete. Mario Kart is nice, but it took eight+ games before they could implement "auto-steering" and not have me completely utterly stomp most random people I play - now I'll just stomp them a little bit. I don't think Mario Party actually does totally nail it, maybe one of its failings is too many of the early minigames require a decent bit of dexterity, sometimes losing really does feel like losing. But the design is fully there, and there is room for iteration. By their innate qualities these games are "mini", quick, disposable, forgettable. Their results gone in the wind. New opportunity around the next corner, some random upset meaning someone got their brief satisfaction but it only really mattered a little in the end. It's just a game. It is a game. It's simultaneously quick and breezy but also lets you get invested in the long game.

Mario Party is just a game, but it nails that perfect medium of having a simple core with satisfying strategic depth. Incredibly easy to explain - win minigames, get money, move toward the star, and buy it. And yet, there's such room for satisfaction there. Some games in the series have lacked, but the best ones gave you a diverse set of "items" to use to influence your random fate. Yes, it is in the end, random, but that's also what makes it truly beautiful. It's this element of randomness that's necessary for everyone to play and have fun. And that's what Mario Party is famous for, and still is, the hilarious turnabouts that are sometimes unavoidable, but give everyone the chance to play underdog and get satisfaction because even when you lose, it's (almost) never just a steamroll - there was always the opportunity for everyone to win, so even a pro has to be on their toes when playing with casuals. Perfect balance isn't necessary and that's what lets the game be creatively free. You won't make an esport out of it, sometimes it won't always be perfectly tuned, but there's a reason these games are unforgettable classics. They're a party. They're for the whole party. It's not about whether you won or lost in the end. It really is about the game.

Admittedly, the newer Mario Partys have stumbled a bit, but the original ones threaded the needle, giving you the opportunity for skillful play in those minigames, the tools to make satisfying decisions, and work toward long-term strategic goals. Casual players may not realize it, but the way end-of-game bonus stars were fixed in the original Mario Party is what really gave these games their energy. You can make simple trade-offs for the long-term and have it pay off in the end and influence what at first seem to be random results, just by choosing to land on an event space or pad your coin count contrary to the single-minded goal. It's a shame these goals became a bit too random as the series went on, but this variation is also why we're lucky we got so many of these in such a short time. There's a level of randomness to satisfy everyone, in a way. These long-term goals are what gives it the opportunity, the exact amount of edge needed to satisfy a veteran player and still be approachable to everyone.

What the hell is the rest of the industry doing? All I want is more of this. We're all sitting here lamenting how Nintendo, the seemingly sole handler of the quality "video board game", just can't tap that spark anymore. How, after gracing us with literally 10+ routine entries of unrelenting, dreaded minigames and random chance, they surveyed the landscape and saw no one would even bother to riff on this with justice. I don't blame them even 1% for trying anything different because the core is totally ripe for it. I mean, that's Calvinball. It could be anything. But it feels like we missed a chance. We're slaves to the industry, we're gamer gamers, we want the mainline, the depth, the template. You can't even imagine what Mario Party you're missing because it comes from a place where the template doesn't matter. It's not Nintendo's fault the way these games were doesn't exist anymore. It simultaneously takes daunting creative decisions to make these games and yet it's all so obvious.

Mario Party is the game-iest of games in that it doesn't need graphics. It's all about the core. It's anti-aged. Yes, it might be in part some rose-tinted nostalgia, but in a way, as time stretches on, the original sharp, polygonal, crude puppets were exactly what this game needed. The bizarre, slightly off-character, exclamations, weird animations, dream-like scenario of it all. The original soundtrack from the composer of Chrono Trigger. All we get by remaking it for Nintendo Switch™️ with the power of our greatest technologies is somehow something lesser. It can be close, but never quite the same. What we had is impossible for Nintendo to rekindle, because we demand more than a template and yet only the template and there's just no way it will be the same. I don't doubt it can be done, but I'm not if sure the conditions are really right to squeeze out that secret sauce. Do people really get why these games are so good other than it being branded Mario? If anyone knows if any indie knock-offs are truly up to snuff, I need to know. I might just have to make it myself. I want to play this with the real party, the whole party, everyone at once. The game that anyone can play and compete and spectate and share that same enjoyment of winning. It can be done, and it can even be done even better.

Every day people say "when will GameCube games be re-released?" and absolutely never mention Mario Party. The fact we got strings of them for a single console somehow proves them simultaneously wildly popular, and yet entirely worthless. What value is there in iteration? Sometimes people say they struggle to make a top 10 of N64 games when we have three of the greatest games of all-time just sitting, ducks in a row, top of their genius and charm. It's actually incredibly lucky we got so many of them to twist and prod that golden formula, as if the developers knew their time with it was limited, that no one else would make this, that one day no one would do it again.

Are we too simple for Mario Party? We play it, and just don't see it. We don't appreciate what we have. It's just some game. There's nothing there to celebrate. If a game has nothing to say, it has no meaning. Unless it drills to the purity of simplicity, if you're a Tetris, gameplay doesn't really matter. Unless your game has the addictive, independent depth to allow practice and progression, it's disposable. What value does Mario Party have? Truly utilizing the medium in a way that lets everyone play and win and be satisfied while offering an infinite creative space for whatever could be around the next corner?

Seems like it's worth an award to me. A true game of the year. An ageless game for everyone and all time. Kudos to the smart designers and legendary devs. Beyond Mario, you made an impression, and you keep making impressions. We'll play it forever.
 
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RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
How can a series be the quintessential video game? Come on, at least pick one to represent the series. (and that game is Mario Party 2)

And don't even get me started on Sugoroku in Samurai Warriors 2, the true king of party games.

 

TheDanimal

победитель победитель куриный ужин
Member
Oct 25, 2017
854
I'm going to come back and read all of this later, but I agree with your premise 100000%
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,556
Mario Party 2 is indeed one of the best games of all time. It's up there with Smash as one of the best party games.
 

Vertpin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,884
Just make a Mario Party as awesome as 1-3. Also, what gamecube MP is the best?
 
Oct 24, 2019
6,560
Mario Party was fun for a little bit on the N64, but it's stale as fuck now and why would I bother playing it when there are so many more cool and interesting things happening in the current table top renaissance?
 

ss_lemonade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,648
We were lucky to have an n64 with 4 controllers, but did not have Mario Party. A friend had a copy though, so we always had multiplayer sessions with other friends.

Man, I miss that n64. It was probably the best multiplayer system we had (goldeneye, smash bros, wcw/nwo revenge, etc)
 

Poltergust

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,819
Orlando, FL
There is a certain timelessness to this series. Out of all the games released during the 5th/6th generation of consoles, the Mario Party games (besides 1) are among those that aged the best. It makes sense if you look at them as board games, because a good board game would also basically never age.
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
I expected shallow replies and discussion on Era but hey, I had to get this out somewhere.

Mario Party was fun for a little bit on the N64, but it's stale as fuck now and why would I bother playing it when there are so many more cool and interesting things happening in the current table top renaissance?

It's not perfect, but in the realm of video games it goes farther than anything else seems to. No one even seems to attempt to try, really, except to exactly virtualize every little idiosyncrasy of a board game, when there's no reason that should be necessary in our medium. We can do better, and Mario Party shows you how it could be possible.

Not many board games I've played really satisfy my condition of trivially easy to learn, perfectly random in a way that everyone can win, and yet still satisfying for a veteran player. By virtue of going "stale" with so many sequels, those iterations are exactly why it isn't and maybe wouldn't be if it went just a bit farther. It might have gone down a bit of the path away from skill-based play as time went on, but there's definitely an alternate universe where it could been tweaked just a bit in the other direction. And someone can still make that.
 

treasureyez

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,336
Amazing post OP. I don't have much to add except I never noticed Yasunori Mitsuda was the composer for the first Mario Party. What a diverse talent!
 

EntelechyFuff

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Nov 19, 2019
10,133
Not many board games I've played really satisfy my condition of trivially easy to learn, perfectly random in a way that everyone can win, and yet still satisfying for a veteran player.

If these are the conditions, then the bolded portion is where Mario Party fails. I have played hundreds of hours of multiple MPs, and the game it has the most common with is the lottery.

The series is fun as long as you are held back from the realization that winning is a matter of chance. When the progression and result of the game is apparently tied to strategic decision making or skill, it seems fun. However, a handful of games with the same audience will quickly pull back that veil.

If I had to compare it to a specific board game, it'd be Candy Land. Which--for anyone who has spent significant time with Candy Land--is not remotely satisfying for a veteran player.
 

Bard

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,424
I still feel like MP5 is the best. Letting you directly affect the board with various items is amazing and every game should have let you do this.
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
If these are the conditions, then the bolded portion is where Mario Party fails. I have played hundreds of hours of multiple MPs, and the game it has the most common with is the lottery.

The series is fun as long as you are held back from the realization that winning is a matter of chance. When the progression and result of the game is apparently tied to strategic decision making or skill, it seems fun. However, a handful of games with the same audience will quickly pull back that veil.

If I had to compare it to a specific board game, it'd be Candy Land. Which--for anyone who has spent significant time with Candy Land--is not remotely satisfying for a veteran player.

Did you actually read my OP? It's not Candy Land. It may be random, but Candy Land the epitome of not being able to have any impact on the game - Mario Party isn't like that. The game gives you just enough to influence the result and a lot of the time, even if not all the time, there was a way for you to avoid calamity if you plan a few steps ahead, skillfully win minigames, and aim for the long-term bonus goals. I've played with a lot of veteran players and I'd actually say it's a little disappointing how a skillful player will win more often because the game does give you a lot of tools to play smartly if you're in the know. At the least, it's not just straight lottery.

And in the end, that doesn't matter all that much. Not every game needs to be about winning and losing. This is game that makes playing the game enjoyable for everyone with that smart balance. There's no misery for a veteran player because there's still power to make decisions and show off your skill through games within a game, even if you lose. It's smart design. It's doing something different and it has the opportunity to be more creative because it's not worried about making everything perfectly, exactly balanced, at all times. Read my OP.
 

allongo

Member
Jun 29, 2018
97
Fortune Street is a video game board game with mini games, Mario party wasn't a completely new game concept.
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
I suppose if you enjoy tedious slogs.

At some point I might have agreed with you, when I was young and had a lacking attention span, but I can't fathom nowadays how someone can't enjoy a constant slew of fresh new minigames and crazy turnabouts. I hope some day you'll fill this obvious hole in your heart.

Its length is actually what gives it strength - you can actually be invested in the outcome. Way too many games are quick and throwaway.
 
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JershJopstin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,332
I have to leave for work in 20 minutes, else I'd spend more time replying to this thread now.

But thanks for it. I grew up playing Mario Party with my two older siblings (specifically 1-6) and after a long break after the Wii's release, we've come back to playing it regularly in recent years. While we find Super to be adequate, we still prefer the classics (our biggest problem with it is actually pacing; it just takes ages to get through a turn. There's still room for skill, it's just a little different than the other ones).

Despite different taste in games (especially my sister), Mario Party and Mario Kart are pretty much the only two we all enjoy playing together - and I think we all like Party more. There's just a simple brilliance to it.

If these are the conditions, then the bolded portion is where Mario Party fails. I have played hundreds of hours of multiple MPs, and the game it has the most common with is the lottery.
Bull. I win a lot. And I mean a lot. At least 75%, probably over 80%. There's a lot more that can be influenced through skill than most people recognize - especially in the N64 entries (I know these a little better than the GCN ones, though that might change soon).

Yes, there's times I lose despite playing the best, and the occasional victory that was actually undeserved. But those possibilities need to be there to make it fun.
 

Noog

▲ Legend ▲
Member
May 1, 2018
2,859
1-7 are all very fun. 8 was a step down but had the same formula. 9 had really good mini games but the car sucked. I never played 10. Super Mario Party had the right idea, but I felt like that game was released a year before it was done. The fact it never got more DLC, boards, or mini games is insane.
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
I have to leave for work in 20 minutes, else I'd spend more time replying to this thread now.

But thanks for it. I grew up playing Mario Party with my two older siblings (specifically 1-6) and after a long break after the Wii's release, we've come back to playing it regularly in recent years. While we find Super to be adequate, we still prefer the classics (our biggest problem with it is actually pacing; it just takes ages to get through a turn. There's still room for skill, it's just a little different than the other ones).

Despite different taste in games (especially my sister), Mario Party and Mario Kart are pretty much the only two we all enjoy playing together - and I think we all like Party more. There's just a simple brilliance to it.


Bull. I win a lot. And I mean a lot. At least 75%, probably over 80%. There's a lot more that can be influenced through skill than most people recognize - especially in the N64 entries (I know these a little better than the GCN ones, though that might change soon).

Yes, there's times I lose despite playing the best, and the occasional victory that was actually undeserved. But those possibilities need to be there to make it fun.

Well said. Those unexpected results are what makes it truly fun. I don't even really mind the newer games even if they're a bit more random, because they can still manage the exhilarating turnabouts that keep everyone involved and invested. It's just a shame no one else seems to want to carry the torch of those original games and extend it in interesting ways. But hey, at least we got a whole boatload of them.
 

EntelechyFuff

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Nov 19, 2019
10,133
Did you actually read my OP?

And in the end, that doesn't matter all that much. Not every game needs to be about winning and losing. This is game that makes playing the game enjoyable for everyone with that smart balance. There's no misery for a veteran player because there's still power to make decisions and show off your skill through games within a game, even if you lose. It's smart design. It's doing something different and it has the opportunity to be more creative because it's not worried about making everything perfectly, exactly balanced, at all times. Read my OP.

I did, and I disagree. There is lots of misery in Mario Party, both for veterans and non. I have seen real life tears shed over Mario Party.

I get what you're going for with positioning Mario Party as this "for-its-own-sake, game of games", and think that something like that is interesting and can exist. I just disagree that Mario Party is that thing.

In some ways MP emphasizes winners and losers even more than games that appear more superficially competitive--Even Mario Kart, which you've also mentioned, doesn't emphasize the humiliation and failure of the losers in the way that Mario Party does.

Comparing it to the lottery an over-simplification. A more nuanced and political comparison would be capitalism itself: do those who play better, do better? Maybe. Are those who lost the "dice roll" basically fucked, regardless of actions taken? Definitely.

I don't even hate this kind of game: I've played a lot of MP, and wouldn't say no to another round once in a while. But it fails at what you're describing--which is this idealized state where everyone has a good and/or valuable time regardless of individual outcomes. I have never seen any other game--either explicitly competitive video games or board games--generate the kind of feeling of defeat and betrayal that Mario Party has, and that's not an exaggeration.

Also Dokapon Kingdom is way better.
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
I did, and I disagree. There is lots of misery in Mario Party, both for veterans and non. I have seen real life tears shed over Mario Party.

I get what you're going for with positioning Mario Party as this "for-its-own-sake, game of games", and think that something like that is interesting and can exist. I just disagree that Mario Party is that thing.

In some ways MP emphasizes winners and losers even more than games that appear more superficially competitive--Even Mario Kart, which you've also mentioned, doesn't emphasize the humiliation and failure of the losers in the way that Mario Party does.

Comparing it to the lottery an over-simplification. A more nuanced one and political comparison would be capitalism itself: do those who play better, do better? Maybe. Are those who lost the "dice roll" basically fucked, regardless of actions taken? Definitely.

I don't even hate this kind of game: I've played a lot of MP, and wouldn't say no to another round once in a while. But it fails at what you're describing--which is this idealized state where everyone has a good and/or valuable time regardless of individual outcomes. I have never seen any other game--either explicitly competitive video games or board games--generate the kind of feeling of defeat and betrayal that Mario Party has, and that's not an exaggeration.

Also Dokapon Kingdom is way better.

I actually fully agree the game doesn't do everything it can to really be a game-for-everyone - as much as I love the game, I also think a lot of its genius is potential. The game could stand to be friendlier while still having those reversals, and I think it could be better done than just making the game more random and the player less to blame like later games did. I actually play a lot of multiplayer games with large groups, I break out Mario Party 7 with its 8-player mode a lot, and there's even more of a missing opportunity to expand on there - when you have a partner by your side and you're facing another team, then betrayal and loss is less personal, and you have someone who's with you through it. There's so much that could be done with that.

I kind of vaguely hinted at it in the post, but I'm actually working on a game project myself that's pretty much Mario Party, but what if more people could play? What if you could play with a whole team? What if your individual performance didn't matter quite so much? Hopefully I can pull that off.

And I still think the random element has lots of value. The game gives you the power to influence your fate through items and decisions, and that's enough. And see here:



As children, these moments defined who we would become.


The game would be objectively lesser if it gave up moments of random chance like this. Even as a pro, you'll always be kept on your toes because this could happen at any time. There's value in that.
 
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JershJopstin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,332
I don't even really mind the newer games even if they're a bit more random, because they can still manage the exhilarating turnabouts that keep everyone involved and invested.
I will say - Super Mario Party is all about moving through the board as fast as possible (with the exception of Megafruit Paradise), and it gives you the most tools to influence your ability to do so. Picking a character based on die and aiming for ally spaces early goes a surprisingly long way, and there's no shortage of dash mushrooms. When you're getting so many coins from mini-games even without getting first, you'll rack up stars if you're moving fast.

The bonus stars definitely leave more to chance, though. Perhaps my tendency to play beyond the default number of turns (generally 35 in the originals and 20 in SMP) leaves more room for skill.

...I'm late for work lol
 
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Stopdoor

Stopdoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,778
Toronto
I will say - Super Mario Party is all about moving through the board as fast as possible (with the exception of Megafruit Paradise), and it gives you the most tools to influence your ability to do so. Picking a character based on die and aiming for ally spaces early goes a surprisingly long way, and there's no shortage of dash mushrooms. When you're getting so many coins from mini-games even without getting first, you'll rack up stars if you're moving fast.

The bonus stars definitely leave more to chance, though. Perhaps my tendency to play beyond the default number of turns (generally 35 in the originals and 20 in SMP) leaves more room for skill.

...I'm late for work lol

Lol, sorry.

I like Super Mario Party but I have to admit it stumbles in some key ways to kind of botch the whole ally dice thing - the way that additional allies always add a +1/2 to your roll, reducing your strategic power and making it more of a brute force mechanic that quickly lets you run ahead with it is a real missed opportunity. How you can't really steal allies from each other very easily to turn the tides like you could in the previous 3DS game. Thank goodness they're pretty much guaranteed to iterate on it in sequels, but it's difficult to hope for Nintendo going in a more strategic direction.
 
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Vivian-Pogo

Member
Jan 9, 2018
2,033
Mario Party used to be one of my favorite series, and we used to get one every year. I miss Mario Party. After Hudson left, the series went downhill quickly. I still enjoy 9 for the minigames, but 10 and the 3DS entries (from what I played) didn't have any redeeming qualities to me. I haven't tried Super because of getting burned on their previous games and poor word of mouth.

I imagine something like Mario Party would be hard to make for small indie creators due to having to program all of the differently-playing ~70 minigames and programming AI that works for all those games, or at least that's the reason why I tell myself it hasn't happened yet.
 

SasaBassa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,058
I started enjoying it more when I realized the game is one massive rng which can be fun I guess