Mario Kart and Sonic Racing Feature a Frustrating Accessibility Issue

[Alek]

In Mario Kart we have these speed classes.

50cc (easy mode)
100cc (normal mode)
150cc (hard more)
200 cc (expert mode)

In Team Sonic Racing we have these difficulty modes

Normal (slow speed)
Hard (normal speed)
Expert (fast speed)

In both instances the inability to separate difficulty from speed class makes for a frustrating set of options that don't allow players to adapt the game to their abiity level independent of the speed they would like to play on. If someone wants to experience the game and tracks at a high speed, they better be bloody good at the game if they want to stand a chance - this type of inflexibility is especially unaccommodating for gamers with disabilities, who may experience added difficulty as a result of differences in how they play the game.

The Sonic Racing Games are especially poor, because the labelling doesn't communicate that you're actually selecting a speed class when selecting expert (as well as a difficulty). In Mario Kart, selecting a higher speed class comes with some assumption of increased difficulty, so it's not as unexpected. But the settings in both games are problematic.

Any thoughts?

EDIT

I was not aware that MK offered a separate option for difficulty. Had not seen the option before.

 

[808s & Villainy]

This sounds more like you don't like how they handle difficulty more than actual accessibility issues

 

[Youngfossil]

I'm guess you're not very good at games like Fzero

 

[AndreGX]

IIRC the VS option in more recent MK games separates the AI difficulty from the game speed (cc)

Edit:

 

[J.Devesh]

In Mario Kart we have these speed classes.

50cc (easy mode)
100cc (normal mode)
150cc (hard more)
200 cc (expert mode)

In Team Sonic Racing we have these difficulty modes

Normal (slow speed)
Hard (normal speed)
Expert (fast speed)

In both instances the inability to separate difficulty from speed class makes for a frustrating set of options that don't allow players to adapt the game to their abiity level independent of the speed they would like to play on. If someone wants to experience the game and tracks at a high speed, they better be bloody good at the game if they want to stand a chance - this type of inflexibility is especially unaccommodating for gamers with disabilities, who may experience added difficulty as a result of differences in how they play the game.

The Sonic Racing Games are especially poor, because the labelling doesn't communicate that you're actually selecting a speed class when selecting expert (as well as a difficulty). In Mario Kart, selecting a higher speed class comes with some assumption of increased difficulty, so it's not as unexpected. But the settings in both games are problematic.

Any thoughts?

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You know that you can set the difficulty of the opponents in Mario Kart 8 independently from the speed class, right?

EDIT: AndreGX posted the visual proof :3

 

[CloseTalker]

Difficulty =/= accessibility

 

[Murlin]

It's inherently more difficult to control a car when it's faster, not sure how this could be overcome in any way. I'm not even sure if the oppponent AI gets affected at all by "difficulty" in either game.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Having to do things faster in any game is typically considered harder.

See Tetris for an early example.

 

[GekigangerV]

I am no Mario Kart expert, but isn't "difficulty" also a factor of rubber band AI?

From what I gather from the post, wouldn't time attack be more up you alley? Where "difficulty" is the course and your ability to improve your time? Can you do time attack at different cc speeds?

 

[Glio]

Does the higher speed not intrinsically make it more difficult to control if you have accessibility problems?

 

[HighspeedRefleX]

Not the best way to approach difficulty imo.
In videos, TSR appears to have a solid sense of speed at expert difficulty but i'd be more interested if it wasn't designed around team mechanics and the drifting makes it look like you're in a boat or not connected to the ground.

 

[Hieroph]

IIRC the VS option in more recent MK games separates the AI difficulty from the game speed (cc)

Edit:

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VS mode is really good and more games should have a similar option. But it needs a better name, because a lot of people will think it's something else based on the name.

 

[Sacul64]

IIRC the VS option in more recent MK games separates the AI difficulty from the game speed (cc)

Edit:

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Yeah came to post this.

 

[Fireblend]

Yeah, Mario Kart 8DX handles this well enough with the 2 separate options IMO.

 

[Sacul64]

I would also add you would not want to do that in sonic as it would make two thirds of your team worse.

 

[Hailinel]

Is this another conflation of difficulty and accessibility?

And yeah, others have already noted that recent MK games allow differentiating the speed and AI settings.

 

[Alek]

You know that you can set the difficulty of the opponents in Mario Kart 8 independently from the speed class, right?

EDIT: AndreGX posted the visual proof :3

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Can you? My mistake. I just misremembered that game. I've been playing Sonic Racing recently.

My bad. Nintendo gets it right. Sonic Racing does not.

 

[808s & Villainy]

Is this another conflation of difficulty and accessibility?

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Yup

 

[Alek]

Yup

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Difficulty =/= accessibility

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Is this another conflation of difficulty and accessibility?

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Offering flexible difficulty options is well regarded as a means in which games can be more accessible.

http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/offer-a-wide-choice-of-difficulty-levels/

http://gameaccessibilityguidelines....ther-through-settings-or-adaptive-difficulty/

https://tombraider.square-enix-game...-the-tomb-raider-difficulty-and-accessibility



Also, let's keep this in context. I'm talking about a casual kart racing series here. I don't see any incentive to gate keep players away from any component of the experience. It should be as flexible as possible.

 

[Lant_War]

The difficulty increase between classes in TSR isn't really because the AI gets that much tougher. They pretty much use the same strats and items as normal and they don't crash as often, but thanks to the added speed those effects are much more evident

 

[Deleted member 249]

I was going to point out MK8 separates speed and difficulty, but that has been done already.

 

[Alek]

Having to do things faster in any game is typically considered harder.

See Tetris for an early example.

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Of course it is. But, the faster speed is also an experiential difference that I feel that all player should be able to experience.

In Tetris, I agree that speed and difficulty are synonymous, but speed is tied to the fail criteria in Tetris.

A game like Celeste, does this right by allowing you to adjust game speed, and other elements of the game difficulty independently. Yes, the faster levels are harder, but it's also the level design which modifies difficulty.

The difficulty increase between classes in TSR isn't really because the AI gets that much tougher. They pretty much use the same strats and items as normal and they don't crash as often, but thanks to the added speed those effects are much more evident

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They definitely appear to band more heavily and play more aggressively. I had top 10 time trial times in Transformed and the original Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing, and even with near-perfect driving lines you notice a considerable difference in AI difficulty in higher/lower modes. They stick to you much more closely, and have their speed artificially inflated much more often.

 

[Ferrs]

I agree with you OP. Speed and AI should be a different parameter, like the latest MK, this is a bad point on Sonic Racing.

 

[Camjo-Z]

Most of the challenge of Expert mode in TSR comes from the increased speed, if you can handle that then you can probably handle the slightly tougher AI. If you just want to blaze around the track at high speed without worrying about any opponents tripping you up, play Time Trials.

 

[Hailinel]

Also, let's keep this in context. I'm talking about a casual kart racing series here. I don't see any incentive to gate keep players away from any component of the experience. It should be as flexible as possible.

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What's being kept behind a gate in Mario Kart? All of the content is available whether you play on 50cc or 200cc. It's also possible to adjust the behavior of CPU racers. Mario Kart 8DX even offers control assist features that make the game easier to play by auto-correcting turns and such.

 

[Deleted member 3815]

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of that either as in higher difficulty is just bullshit in Sonic as once the AI gets so far ahead. There is no way you can ever catch up to them.

I want the faster speed but not the higher difficulty.

IIRC the VS option in more recent MK games separates the AI difficulty from the game speed (cc)

Edit:

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Not for grand Prix cups, so OP isn't wrong in that department.

 

[Alek]

What's being kept behind a gate in Mario Kart? All of the content is available whether you play on 50cc or 200cc. It's also possible to adjust the behavior of CPU racers. Mario Kart 8DX even offers control assist features that make the game easier to play by auto-correcting turns and such.

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I made comments and adjusted the OP to indicate that I was unaware of the options in Mario Kart. I think having the option present in the custom races is PROBABLY good enough. It's at least, a step better than we see in the Sonic Racing game.

However, I think having these options only present in the custom races presents an obvious visibility issue. The thing about accessibility is that the options for it, should be... well, accessible. That's why we have subtitles on by default, that's why we have Smart steering on be default (because someone that doesn't need it can turn it off, but someone that does, might not be able to turn it on), so it's a shame to see the option tucked away, and not present in the Grand Prix mode.

 

[Alek]

I'm guess you're not very good at games like Fzero

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This is a pointless ad hominem, but I'll bite anyway!

I think separating difficulty from speed is simply best practice, and this perspective has nothing to do with my individual ability.

I beat Zico in Wipeout, the Venom Hotlaps in Driveclub, I set world record times in Motorstorm Apocalyse and Dirt 2, I set top 10 times in Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing Transformed, and Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing. I'm not the best arcade racer in the world, but I have no trouble participating across all of the difficulties present in these games.

 

[808s & Villainy]

Also, let's keep this in context. I'm talking about a casual kart racing series here. I don't see any incentive to gate keep players away from any component of the experience. It should be as flexible as possible.

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It could be argued the speed isn't simply a "component" and is intrinsically tied with how they define their various difficulties. Higher doesn't really change anything other than features typically associated with difficulty (requiring a better understanding of tracks so as not to crash and a better handle of the drift mechanic). It's not really gate keeping because you aren't missing out on any features of the game

 

[Hailinel]

I made comments and adjusted the OP to indicate that I was unaware of the options in Mario Kart. I think having the option present in the custom races is PROBABLY good enough. It's at least, a step better than we see in the Sonic Racing game.

However, I think having these options only present in the custom races presents an obvious visibility issue. The thing about accessibility is that the options for it, should be... well, accessible. That's why we have subtitles on by default, that's why we have Smart steering on be default (because someone that doesn't need it can turn it off, but someone that does, might not be able to turn it on), so it's a shame to see the option tucked away, and not present in the Grand Prix mode.

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But again, what's being gatekept? All tracks are available at all cc levels.

 

[Alek]

It could be argued the speed isn't simply a "component" and is intrinsically tied with how they define their various difficulties. Higher doesn't really change anything other than features typically associated with difficulty (requiring a better understanding of tracks so as not to crash and a better handle of the drift mechanic). It's not really gate keeping because you aren't missing out on any features of the game

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Speed changes the game significantly. In Transformed, one of the routes in Golden Axe can't even be used on the highest speed class without slowing yourself down. It opens up new shortcuts, and changes the strategies you can apply to each race.

Not insignificantly, it also changes the average amount of time spent in each race. Which really adds up when you're playing a Grand Prix. Playing a Grand Prix on the slowest speed class will often take half as much time as the fastest. That's a significant difference to the overall experience. I get bored spending 4 minutes on a single race.

But again, what's being gatekept? All tracks are available at all cc levels.

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The gameplay speed makes for a significantly different experience. Both experientially, and mechanically.

1. The experience of going faster is different. The sensation of speed is a variable that might be appreciated by players. For instance, I like going fast. I hate playing something like Wipeout on the Vector Speed class.
2. The time spent racing is different. The speed class options help allow players to select races and tournaments based on the time they have available to play
3. The speed classes adjust the strategies available to racers. For instance, on higher speed, certain track hazards are harder to avoid. Certain shortcuts become available that weren't before.

 

[ashtaar]

IIRC the VS option in more recent MK games separates the AI difficulty from the game speed (cc)

Edit:

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Wow ive never seen that

 

[yyr]

I was going to point out MK8 separates speed and difficulty, but that has been done already.

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But is that just in the VS. mode, or can it be done in Grand Prix too? Don't you need to play Grand Prix to unlock things...?

 

[Deleted member 249]

But is that just in the VS. mode, or can it be done in Grand Prix too? Don't you need to play Grand Prix to unlock things...?

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No, everything is unlocked off the bat.

 

[Hucast]

IIRC the VS option in more recent MK games separates the AI difficulty from the game speed (cc)

Edit:

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/Thread OP?

 

[yyr]

No, everything is unlocked off the bat.

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Oh, that's wonderful!

 

[Sacul64]

Can you? My mistake. I just misremembered that game. I've been playing Sonic Racing recently.

My bad. Nintendo gets it right. Sonic Racing does not.

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I agree with you OP. Speed and AI should be a different parameter, like the latest MK, this is a bad point on Sonic Racing.

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How would lowering racer difficulty help in sonic? 2 thirds of your team would also be worse.

 

[Ehoavash]

I wish Mario Kart 8 would actually tell you what button does " tricks" , how to get speed boost at the start wtf the coins actually do and how to hold items behind your back.

It was kinda frustrating for someone who rarely plays mk games. Hate that the game just assumes you played a Mario kart game before. Like atleast show some tips in the loading screen or something

 

[PopsMaellard]

It could be argued the speed isn't simply a "component" and is intrinsically tied with how they define their various difficulties. Higher doesn't really change anything other than features typically associated with difficulty (requiring a better understanding of tracks so as not to crash and a better handle of the drift mechanic). It's not really gate keeping because you aren't missing out on any features of the game

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Playing the tracks at higher speeds is arguably a feature of the game.

But again, what's being gatekept? All tracks are available at all cc levels.

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I don't understand why threads like this always have combative posts. Even if you literally cannot comprehend why this my be an important feature for someone, or why they'd want to have these options, the options existing fundamentally have zero impact on you. If the game had them you wouldn't know and even if you did, it would make no difference. Why wouldn't you want people to have the choice if they want or need it?

/Thread OP?

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Still applies to Sonic, and probably Crash.

 

[MANUELF]

I wish Mario Kart 8 would actually tell you what button does " tricks" , how to get speed boost at the start wtf the coins actually do and how to hold items behind your back.

It was kinda frustrating for someone who rarely plays mk games. Hate that the game just assumes you played a Mario kart game before. Like atleast show some tips in the loading screen or something

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All that is on the digital manual

 

[Silky]

Weirdo "ArE yOu NoT gOoD aT GaMeS!!!!!!" posts are insufferable

Go bathe

 

[Kahoots]

I like the linking of speed to difficulty in Mario Kart. I hope future Mario Karts allow for this to continue be the case, among any other options people wish.

 

[Deleted member 32018]

Are we just going to forget the steering assist feature in MK8 too? It's one of the more accessible games and shouldn't be lumped in with Sonic.

 

[Etrian Darkness]

I mean going faster is harder. The slower speeds are to learn the courses.

 

[Phil32]

Well, IIRC, in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, you do have to win first place or something like that on every CC and cup to unlock a gold variant of Metal Mario, so that is locked behind the Grand Prix. Everything else like kart parts can be earned with coins collected in Versus mode, thankfully.

 

[Hailinel]

I don't understand why threads like this always have combative posts. Even if you literally cannot comprehend why this my be an important feature for someone, or why they'd want to have these options, the options existing fundamentally have zero impact on you. If the game had them you wouldn't know and even if you did, it would make no difference. Why wouldn't you want people to have the choice if they want or need it?

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I'm no being combative at all. Or I'm not trying to be. I understand concerns over accessibility, but I legitimately don't see where the design of Mario Kart 8, 8DX in particular, is gatekeeping in its design. I'm not screaming at the OP to git gud. I'm asking how and in what way gatekeeping occurs in Mario Kart, because it's something that legitimately never crossed my mind, nor did I comprehend where OP was coming from in their initial posts.

 

[Alek]

Still applies to Sonic, and probably Crash.

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I think CTR just has the same speed across difficulty modes. I've played CTR a lot and never noticed a difference.

It's been present in the Sonic Racing games since forever though, and honestly it'd be nice if it was an option for grand prix mode in MK8D.

I'm no being combative at all. Or I'm not trying to be. I understand concerns over accessibility, but I legitimately don't see where the design of Mario Kart 8, 8DX in particular, is gatekeeping in its design. I'm not screaming at the OP to git gud. I'm asking how and in what way gatekeeping occurs in Mario Kart, because it's something that legitimately never crossed my mind, nor did I comprehend where OP was coming from in their initial posts.

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I did tell you that I felt that having the option in MK8XD's custom races is probably good enough, since you can technically access all of the content (and make your own GPs from there). It might be nice if the option was more visible though, rather than burried in custom races.

 

[AllMight1]

I support your point OP.
As much as I like hard games, sometimes an easy mode can make a frustrating and lengthy experience, into a great one.
For example, i love the souls games, but lately i'm way too time restricted, so getting gud at Sekiro wasn't much my priority and because of that, i dropped the game and started playing other games i can have fun with in little time.

And recently, i went down from proud mode to normal in Kingdom Hearts 3, not because it was too difficult, but because some fights could take up to 20 minutes just because the health bars of enemies are way too large and on normal, you defeat them quite speedy while still being able to be stylish at combat.

 

[Alek]

I support your point OP.
As much as I like hard games, sometimes an easy mode can make a frustrating and lengthy experience, into a great one.
For example, i love the souls games, but lately i'm way too time restricted, so getting gud at Sekiro wasn't much my priority and because of that, i dropped the game and started playing other games i can have fun with in little time.

And recently, i went down from proud mode to normal in Kingdom Hearts 3, not because it was too difficult, but because some fights could take up to 20 minutes just because the health bars of enemies are way too large and on normal, you defeat them quite speedy while still being able to be stylish at combat.

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Outside of accessibility I think the options are just better for everyone. Sometimes you want to play the fastest speed, but don't want to be harassed by the AI all of the time.

I checked in Sonic Racing today, and it does indeed indicate that the difficult options increase both speed and AI difficulty.

How would lowering racer difficulty help in sonic? 2 thirds of your team would also be worse.

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1. You can play all of TSRs GPs in either solo, or teams mode
2. If you lower the difficulty of your AI, they would still be equal to the enemy AI. Ergo, the AI just moves around you, just as it does in any other game. From what I have played of the game, the AI really band to you regardless of the difficulty setting you're playing on. If I'm in first, they're most commonly 2nd and 3rd.

 

[Xion_Stellar]

Outside of accessibility I think the options are just better for everyone. Sometimes you want to play the fastest speed, but don't want to be harassed by the AI all of the time.

I checked in Sonic Racing today, and it does indeed indicate that the difficult options increase both speed and AI difficulty.

1. You can play all of TSRs GPs in either solo, or teams mode
2. If you lower the difficulty of your AI, they would still be equal to the enemy AI. Ergo, the AI just moves around you, just as it does in any other game. From what I have played of the game, the AI really band to you regardless of the difficulty setting you're playing on. If I'm in first, they're most commonly 2nd and 3rd.

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I assume you're going to bump the topic when CTR:NF inevitable doesn't have these options either? Because CTR is more focused on player skill vs MK's RNG item fest and STR's Team Play focus so I'm not sure how these options would translate well on CTR:NF.