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Margaret Thatcher's prediction about the EU

Astandahl

Astandahl

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,012


While i don't agree with her vision about the world pretty much everything she said about the EU happened.

Austerity played a major role:



Centre left at last election:

Italy lowest of all time
France lowest of all time
Netherlands lowest of all time
Sweden lowest since 1908
Germany second lowest since 1949
Etc...
 
saenima

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Yeah because ghouls like her made sure to make moderate policies untenable. Now it's either a leftist, humanitarian approach or the downward spiral of the current neoliberalism she embodied.

Fuck Thatcher.
 
saenima

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
This is like giving credit to Jack the Ripper for predicting some prostitutes would get murdered.
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
Just gonna say: FUCK THATCHER, AND FUCK NEOLIBERALISM.
 
jonamok

jonamok

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,139
Keep on burning, down, down deeper and down, through those fiery pits of Hell, Thatch.
 
Mass_Pincup

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,129
That would be the case if not for the fact that nearly everything she's talking about is also affecting countries outside the EU.
 
Sordid Plebeian

Sordid Plebeian

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,385
I think it will be one of the world's greatest ironies if trying to bring the EU together is what ends up tearing it apart. I think what Thatcher is saying here is a bit hyperbolic compared to the reality of what a shared currency has done for Europe, but she does highlight some problems that have been seen with Greece especially. They are certainly in a strange position that will continue to challenge the shape of Europe going forward, and while some form of greater internationalism and statehood would be my preference for how to potentially address this issue, I fear that passions of nationalism, xenophobia, and homogeneity will overtake the progress that has been made since WWII in time.

Also, come on guys this thread isn't about Thatcher, it's about the state of the EU. Stop derailing even though she is awful.
 
JCG

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,538
She's a conservative, to put it lightly, so nobody was ever going to expect her to be liberal or progressive about this. That said, you can also make an argument that the United Kingdom only participating in the EU under a few special conditions became part of the problem and slowed down the integration process.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
Sordid Plebeian said:
I think it will be one of the world's greatest ironies if trying to bring the EU together is what ends up tearing it apart. I think what Thatcher is saying here is a bit hyperbolic compared to the reality of what a shared currency has done for Europe, but she does highlight some problems that have been seen with Greece especially. They are certainly in a strange position that will continue to challenge the shape of Europe going forward, and while some form of greater internationalism and statehood would be my preference for how to potentially address this issue, I fear that passions of nationalism, xenophobia, and homogeneity will overtake the progress that has been made since WWII in time.

Also, come on guys this thread isn't about Thatcher, it's about the state of the EU. Stop derailing even though she is awful.
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Thatcher helped contribute towards the mess the UK is in, especially by helping the rise of classism, which in turn is one of the things killing the EU.

The working class becoming more and more Conservative. People voting against their own interests while looking for excuses to blame such as minorities, immigrants and those they perceive as a lower class than them. The rise of xenophobia and racism against a project which tries to promote freedom of movement for work/living.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim the EU is perfect, but many of the countries causing the biggest messes only have their own governments and actions to blame.
 

Operations

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,180
Puting her conflict of interest aside regarding the currency, she was right about the impact migration would have on the popularity of extremist parties.
 
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Thatcher is echoing what some economists at the time were correctly worried about: the Euro was a catastrophic mistake. Austerity sucks and is very bad and has contributed to the issues, but isn't the actual core issue here.

The Euro is a monetary union where monetary policy is controlled by a single entity. But in Europe, each country has radically different needs in terms of monetary policy. Normally, within countries, this issue of divergence between regions is compensated for by the fact that the country is a fiscal union, collecting taxes and spending money at the national level. In the United States, which is a similar situation with many states and regions having radically different economic circumstances, this works because free movement and a unified government capable of redistribution among those regions is present. (Blue states subsidizing red states is much more a feature than a bug.) But in Europe, where that governmental union isn't present, you instead get a massive host of issues, because you don't have the ability to compensate for suboptimal monetary policy by redistributing from richer countries to poorer ones.

This divergence in monetary policy without a fiscal union is a large part of you have such gigantic gaps in the economies of EU, where Germany (which dominates monetary policy) has incredibly low unemployment, while other countries like Greece are in a massive hole there and unable to dig themselves out. Things like Brain Drain you see here in the US w/ young people from rural areas migrating to metropolitan areas are magnified massively in the EU due to this, exacerbating these types of behaviors and trends.
Audioboxer said:
Thatcher helped contribute towards the mess the UK is in, especially by helping the rise of classism, which in turn is one of the things killing the EU.

The working class becoming more and more Conservative.
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Thatcher sucked but that was going to happen Thatcher or no Thatcher.
 
Daphne

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,693
I've been thinking about Thatcher, and Reagan, lately in the context of Brexit. The fact is, these two and the neoliberalism they represented did enormous damage to their respective countries and the World. Enormous and easily expounded damage that we all pay for and continue to pay for. But we go on anyway, and things go on and we make do; maybe things aren't so bad, right? It's in comparison to how significantly better things could have been that their continuing damage is revealed. But people don't think like that, mostly through ignorance, but also because you simply have to pragmatically deal with what is.

And then, because the world doesn't end, their proponents claim they were right, with any other context ignored. Incredibly frustrating.

This is what Brexit will be like. Enormous damage will be done. Economy, living standards, services, rights will all be eroded and lessened, as with Thatcher, but we'll go on and muddle through and because we do, though it could have been so much better, the lack of total destruction will be crowed about as though it's a victory.

Also, burn in Hell, Thatcher and Reagan, though I don't believe in it.
 
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Deleted member 11370

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,494
Astandahl said:
Austerity played a major role:
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And who's to blame for all the "austerity" policies in the past 20 years? The center-left? I don't exactly get what you're aiming at here, OP.

Astandahl said:
Italy lowest of all time
France lowest of all time
Netherlands lowest of all time
Sweden lowest since 1908
Germany second lowest since 1949
Etc...
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No mention of Spain? Or that doesn't fit the narrative?
 
JahIthBer

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,383
modern western policies (aka neo liberal) not working out in the long run is why the Right is on the rise in the West, EU is an easy target to blame just like immigrants are in the USA. The so called iron lady was half right imo.
Also remember conservatives in UK/Australia etc are more like Democrats, Republicans are almost unique in how far right they are, so the people in this thread saying shes a neo liberal isn't too far from the truth, she didn't really follow Ronnie Raygun's trickle down bullshit.
 
ronpontelle

ronpontelle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,645
The euro is massively flawed without much deeper integration, and although the EU is popular, I'm not sure the level of integration needed is what Europeans want.

But it's been austerity that's really fucked it.
 
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
SMD said:
This is pretty much post hoc ergo propter hoc - you can't say the Euro was a catastrophic mistake because of the mistakes made to lead to that. The Euro as a concept is fine, as you pointed out it's already the same as the United States. The biggest issue was the political will outpacing the economic reality, admitting Greece was a mistake because they weren't ready. However, because of austerity (which has nothing to do with the Euro or financial performance as we all know) and the insistence of neoliberalism as the economic driving force, you don't have the tools to fix these issues. Ironically the EU, despite being a neoliberal machine in the mould of Thatcher's wettest dreams, would've been stronger by promoting more socialist policies across the board.

So no, Thatcher and her ilk are definitely to blame for the ongoing issues with the EU.
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No, the Euro as a concept was NOT fine. You have massively misunderstood what I wrote if that's your takeaway. Without the fiscal union massive issues were inevitable and predictable because of the way a lack of internal redistribution between regions and a lack or individual flexibilty on monetary policy among member states rendering them unable to properly address their individual circumstances.

Reagan/Thatcher economics are and were shitty. The critique she's making here doesn't somehow exonerate those and the issues they've caused, but the critique here is not one tied to those policies or any other economic ideology.
 
Akronis

Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,452
N3lQtDS.gif
 
Ether_Snake

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
SMD said:
This is pretty much post hoc ergo propter hoc - you can't say the Euro was a catastrophic mistake because of the mistakes made to lead to that. The Euro as a concept is fine, as you pointed out it's already the same as the United States. The biggest issue was the political will outpacing the economic reality, admitting Greece was a mistake because they weren't ready. However, because of austerity (which has nothing to do with the Euro or financial performance as we all know) and the insistence of neoliberalism as the economic driving force, you don't have the tools to fix these issues. Ironically the EU, despite being a neoliberal machine in the mould of Thatcher's wettest dreams, would've been stronger by promoting more socialist policies across the board.

So no, Thatcher and her ilk are definitely to blame for the ongoing issues with the EU.
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Countries can't print euros to deal with downturns so they are forced to resort to austerity. You seem to not understand how the Euro works compared to the US.


SMD said:
That's what I said, anything I'd say is just going to repeat my previous post. Think outside the neoliberal box.
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So Krugman is a neoliberal now lol
 
Xando

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,364
Astandahl said:
Italy lowest of all time
France lowest of all time
Netherlands lowest of all time
Sweden lowest since 1908
Germany second lowest since 1949
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This is a bit misleading when you have several new parties taking over old centre left policies (mostly green parties) or splitting the left vote from what used to be 1 left party to now 3 left parties (in germany it's centre left, greens and far left) and also leave out several countries where the left is leading the goverment (finland, spain, denmark, portugal etc.)

What happened to the left also happened to most conservative parties.The vote split because there are more options now.


Astandahl said:
My intention was to make more about the state of EU not about her. My fault though.
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You know what the state of the EU is? It's is the most popular it has ever been according to polling.
 
Masquerader

Masquerader

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
1,383
Audioboxer said:
Thatcher helped contribute towards the mess the UK is in, especially by helping the rise of classism, which in turn is one of the things killing the EU.

The working class becoming more and more Conservative. People voting against their own interests while looking for excuses to blame such as minorities, immigrants and those they perceive as a lower class than them. The rise of xenophobia and racism against a project which tries to promote freedom of movement for work/living.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim the EU is perfect, but many of the countries causing the biggest messes only have their own governments and actions to blame.
Click to expand...
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Remember, Thatcher engaged in dogwhistle racism to win votes from the National Front at the start in 1979. Didn't actually do many explicitly racist things (unlike Reagan) but Conservatism dabbling in racist rhetoric is the norm for these people.
 
Masquerader

Masquerader

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
1,383
Cookie said:
You know everyone dies, right?
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Thatcher is a great example of death, being very much dead and all that. You know, the opposite of being alive. In fact, I don't think you can get much deader than Thatcher is since she died of a stroke, being dead means you can't be alive anymore again which Thatcher does indeed fall under the category of, due to being dead.
 
Kasey

Kasey

Member
Nov 1, 2017
10,822
Boise
There's a lady in 10 Downing
Check her out, she's quite outstanding
Feel better when her hand is on the steering wheel
Gonna tell her exactly how I really feel

Hey Maggie Thatcher, you're all right!
Thanks to you, I sleep at night
You keep England safe
Your father was a grocer
 
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