Marc Lamont Hill fired by CNN over Isreal remarks

Cocaloch · Dec 16, 2018

Cheebo said:
There is no room for debate when people are flinging anti-Jewish comments. Anti-Semitic comments don't get a platform.

And that's the only thing that ever gets banned in these threads?

Vague assertions of always being right isn't a meaningful position. While antisemitic stuff will happen there will be legitimate critiques of Israel that also get thrown under the bus.

Meanwhile I know from personal experience you get banned if you talk about the moderation around it too much. So by all means make yourself unfalsifiable for your own purposes, just be aware that's not a meaningful way to think or engage with other people.

Frankly I feel like I might get banned for this post, which is why there's no real room for discussion.

Deleted member 5666 · Dec 16, 2018

Cocaloch said:
And that's the only thing that ever gets banned in these threads?

The people banned in this thread for saying antisemitic comments were being antisemitic...so yes?

Deleted member 8257 · Dec 16, 2018

SilentRob said:
You might give everyone the benefit of the doubt and assume their denial of Israel's right to exist simply means they want a peaceful one-state-solution where Jews still have a nation to call home, but I've seen enough antisemitism both on this forum and everywhere else that I'm not ready to do that.

I believe that Israel's settlement policy is abhorrent. I believe the Israeli government is a ultra-nationalist group of people hellbent on further expanding their country's border against all international resistance (which they get a lot of, including from Germany, with the exception of only a few countries like Trump's USA). I think Netanyahu is a criminal and a warmonger. I think Israel should hold the original borders of 67, with a Palestine state co-existing.

There you go. Maybe this helps you guys seeing that not everyone who doesn't argue for the dissolution of Israel has to be a shill payed by Israel who actually, secretely hates Palestinians. As a german, however, I'm also deeply convinced of Israel's right to exist and think questioning it as easily and non-chalantly as many people do - in a culture where antisemitism is more rampant and normalized than ever - is incredibly dangerous and ignorant of the jewish people's past and constant persecution for decades and decades.

This is water under the bridge but the whole establishment of Israel is ridiculous. Since Germany did the worst to the Jews during WW2 maybe they should have carved out a state from within their borders and called it Israel, instead of it being thrust upon by powers that be on natives living in Palestine. Natives who now have to bear the brunt of ethnic cleansing and warmongering. It's easy to say "yeah the state should exist!" without having to bear any of it's consequences.

For the record, like I said, water under the bridge. I believe in the same things as you, '67 borders and E. Jerusalem as Palestine's capital side by side with Israel.

Cocaloch · Dec 16, 2018

Cheebo said:
The people banned in this thread for saying antisemitic comments were being antisemitic...so yes?

I would like to go into specifics with you but I've seen someone get permabaned for doing it over one of my posts so I'll abstain. But I think that's probably a case in point for a problem here.

Skippy · Dec 16, 2018

All the pro Israel ppl in this thread are absolutely disgusting.

Since when is a colonialist European state, based of racism and racial purity, that kills indigenous peple a good thing?

Incredible how people are arguing for European colonialism.

Trojita · Dec 16, 2018

People are being banned for mentioning the paid astroturfing campaign? Accusing a user without evidence may be uncalled for, but the subject is a real thing.

Cocaloch · Dec 16, 2018

Skippy said:
All the pro Israel ppl in this thread are absolutely disgusting.

Since when is a colonialist European state, based of racism and racial purity, that kills indigenous peple a good thing?

Incredible how people are arguing for European colonialism.

The whole debate is an internal contradicton within Liberalism. It's not surprising the discourse around it is messed up for this reason. Foucault basically pointed out this exact problem when he talked about liberation narratives.

Akira86 · Dec 16, 2018

RustyNails said:
This is water under the bridge but the whole establishment of Israel is ridiculous. Since Germany did the worst to the Jews during WW2 maybe they should have carved out a state from within their borders and called it Israel, instead of it being thrust upon by powers that be on natives living in Palestine. Natives who now have to bear the brunt of ethnic cleansing and warmongering. It's easy to say "yeah the state should exist!" without having to bear any of it's consequences.

For the record, like I said, water under the bridge. I believe in the same things as you, '67 borders and E. Jerusalem as Palestine's capital side by side with Israel.

"yeah sure the state should exist, what happened to those people was horrible......(but lowkey fr fr....fuck em both, lol)" - basically what the world said and essentially what the UN said, and pretty much verbatim what the USA said (behind closed doors of course) based on recorded history and actions of all those involved.

they didn't want to save them from the Nazis before hand, and they certainly didnt want to help move them to America or other parts of Europe. I've heard of the lesser of two evils, but it seems like they had to make sure all the options were evil before they could make a proper choice.

junomars · Dec 16, 2018

Necromanti said:
I'll admit that I wouldn't have guessed that "a free Palestine from the river to the sea" was code for advocating anti-Semitic genocide or the total destruction of the state of Israel. I guess you learn something new everyday.

Its even more funny when you realize who has actually been doing the genocide.

Odesu · Dec 16, 2018

Muffin said:
Not to defend 808s post, because jumping straight to somebody being a paid shill is idiotic, but I dont see where Israel hiring and paying Internet trolls is a pure conspiracy theory even if it seems similar to the old Jewish banker crap. Its a long used strategy used by many countries, including Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/nov/06/troll-armies-social-media-trump-russian

Yes, literally every nation on earth competent and wealthy enough does this. And yet, the conspiracy of the jewish elite controlling the world behind the scene has been existing for hundreds of years. I'm going to venture a guess here and say that the poster didn't actually want to make a truthful accusation of him being a paid agent based on evidence such as the article you posted, but instead just went for the easiest and most obvious attack which juuust so happens to be the most well-established antisemitic conspiracy theory in our history and the one that directly lead to repeated prosecution of the jewish people in all parts of the world. I also don't really think this discussion belongs in this thread, so I'm gonna stop now ;)

BeerMan · Dec 16, 2018

The feelings of Jewish people is more important than the fact Israel is a racist state that steals the land of ingenuous people who Israelis also love to kill.

We need to break the control of the media that the Israeli state has over western media. We would not accept any other group influencing our lives so much.

sanstesy · Dec 16, 2018

Cocaloch said:
I mean the alternative is backing off with the bannings for one. It doesn't leave room for healthy discussion. At that point why even both.

I also don't think this is true everywhere at all either.

Then so be it. This is an easy hill I will die on.

And it is mostly true. The moderation is more lax in other places but there is nothing close to a consensus on this topic for what is otherwise such a blatant and plain matter.

BeerMan · Dec 16, 2018

BeerMan said:
The feelings of Jewish people is more important than the fact Israel is a racist state that steals the land of ingenuous people who Israelis also love to kill.

We need to break the control of the media that the Israeli state has over western media. We would not accept any other group influencing our lives so much.

Whoops! wrong reply obviously

Cabbagehead · Dec 16, 2018

BeerMan said:
The feelings of Jewish people is more important than the fact Israel is a racist state that steals the land of ingenuous people who Israelis also love to kill.

We need to break the control of the media that the Israeli state has over western media. We would not accept any other group influencing our lives so much.

It's essentially Saudi's control over opinions with influence to chance things in another country. It's crazy, but it's also a fact that a lot of media companies are particularly angled away from criticizing Israeli. At any reasonable length.

Deleted member 19003 · Dec 16, 2018

BeerMan said:
THIS. So this.

It's crazy how the discussion is always about how we have to make sure Jewish feelings are the most important thing, and not the fact that Israel is an apartheid racist state that believes in racial purity as a way of life. They are killing and stealing the land of the indigenous Palestinians. But all people are concerned about is about semantics and language, no tthe lives of Palestinians.

The influx of Jews into Palestine during WW2, was purely of white Europeans, not Middle Eastern people, not brown people. White colonialists who are stealing indigenous land. Same old story. European white racists stealing the land of indigenous people.

Why are you responding to your own post? Alt?

Cabbagehead · Dec 16, 2018

Cas said:
Why are you responding to your own post? Alt?

lol

NervousXtian · Dec 16, 2018

BeerMan said:
The feelings of Jewish people is more important than the fact Israel is a racist state that steals the land of ingenuous people who Israelis also love to kill.

We need to break the control of the media that the Israeli state has over western media. We would not accept any other group influencing our lives so much.

OK, what's your solution then? This is way beyond dogwhistles and some straight up anti-semitism.

AcademicSaucer · Dec 16, 2018

NervousXtian said:
OK, what's your solution then? This is way beyond dogwhistles and some straight up anti-semitism.

Lmao, nice astroturf

broncobuster · Dec 16, 2018

Inuhanyou said:
Marc Lamont is a smart ass dude. THis guy knows his shit if you hear him talk for just a few minutes. Fucking garbage people in this thread trashing him on a kneejerk reactionary basis. now that we're in primary season, fighting against israeli right wing propaganda should be a litmus test for anyone who wants to run on the democratic ticket. Do you support aparthied or not? Its the same question as supporting Saudi arabia's human rights abuses

Interesting interview. I don't watch CNN much but Marc not speaking about Middle East issues on the network (he mentions only three instances over the years) makes it look even worse for them. There's a point around the 15 minute mark talking about how reactionary folk get only reading headlines and selectively taking words out of context to argue in bad faith. They're too quick to take the bait. He definitely seemed careful about how to phrase what he was saying, because it is a concern how words get twisted.

Also sounds like some others at CNN were arguing for him. I dunno if they'll own up to their misstep or if he'd even accept going back. Marc mentions other networks contacting him but he has other projects he'd sooner work on.

Inuhanyou · Dec 16, 2018

broncobuster said:
Interesting interview. I don't watch CNN much but Marc not speaking about Middle East issues on the network (he mentions only three instances over the years) makes it look even worse for them. There's a point around the 15 minute mark talking about how reactionary folk get only reading headlines and selectively taking words out of context to argue in bad faith. They're too quick to take the bait. He definitely seemed careful about how to phrase what he was saying, because it is a concern how words get twisted.

Also sounds like some others at CNN were arguing for him. I dunno if they'll own up to their misstep or if he'd even accept going back. Marc mentions other networks contacting him but he has other projects he'd sooner work on.

I think he is owed an apology for them kneejerking to alt right cowards like Ben Shaprio trying to strawman his position and get him fired(which they obviously took the bait, either by cowardice or real pressure)

Deleted member 12224 · Dec 16, 2018

AcademicSaucer said:
Lmao, nice astroturf

AstroTurf for what and on behalf of who.

mollusklover · Dec 16, 2018

These types of threads are always good for drawing out the anti-semites.

kambaybolongo · Dec 16, 2018

People in this thread really getting banned for stating the simple fact that Israel has an outsize amount of influence on American politics and media? That is in no way antisemitic.

anamika · Dec 17, 2018

Steven Salaita, the tenured professor at UIUC was fired for his remarks critical of Israel's disproportionate slaughter of the Palestinians during the Gaza war. He was fired because big time donors to the University threatened to withdraw their funding and money for the University. There was so much controversy around his firing from a tenured position that the Chancellor had to resign and the University settled with Salaita.

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2014-09-02/salaita-prompted-donors-fury.html
https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-the-salaita-case-20140915-column.html

So how does one discuss the punishment meted out to a professor who dared to criticize the Israeli state here without discussing the role of money in what was done to him? If it's anti-Semitic to do so, then there can be no examination or investigation into why Salaita was fired. And the cause has to be ignored.

It's very common in academia to stifle free speech when it comes to Palestine and punish professors who talk about Israeli atrocities or support the Palestinian movement. And there's a reason for why this is done easily.

Go ahead and ban me for mentioning the role money plays. I could do with a time out.

Richter1887 · Dec 17, 2018

This exist and Israel isn't trying to hide it with this name:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force

Not only are Israel trying to hijack the Jewish name to make it seem like something about the Jews being defended but they are even being bold about it because nobody will call them out. I feel for the non Zionist Jews who have to be associated by this disgusting government.

With that out of the way, fuck Israel and anybody trying to defend them. The government of Israel and their enablers has destroyed so many lives since it's inception. Both Palestinian, other countries and Jewish.

Cabbagehead · Dec 17, 2018

kambaybolongo said:
People in this thread really getting banned for stating the simple fact that Israel has an outsize amount of influence on American politics and media? That is in no way antisemitic.

exactly, stating a fact is somehow inherently compared to being anti-semitic.

sirap · Dec 17, 2018

Respect to anyone still fighting the good fight. It won't change anything here but y'all got some balls.

Fuck Israel and all their supporters, from the murderers shooting down innocent Palestinians, journalists and medics to those who enable them by stifling criticism.

Cocaloch · Dec 17, 2018

mollusklover said:
These types of threads are always good for drawing out the anti-semites.

Considering that antisemitism in this thread has been defined to include advocating for a democratic one state solution, uh sure I guess. It's definitely going to get some people that care literally at all about Palestinians, which as far as I can tell is antisemitism for a large number of people here.

zeroOman · Dec 17, 2018

Richter1887 said:
This exist and Israel isn't trying to hide it with this name:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force

Not only are Israel trying to hijack the Jewish name to make it seem like something about the Jews being defended but they are even being bold about it because nobody will call them out. I feel for the non Zionist Jews who have to be associated by this disgusting government.

With that out of the way, fuck Israel and anybody trying to defend them. The government of Israel and their enablers has destroyed so many lives since it's inception. Both Palestinian, other countries and Jewish.

Israel spend billion of dollar.... to change there image in the media... from supporting some university to hire ppl to spake and def isreal action ..... every one remember the the Uk lobbyist where "The Lobby, shows Shai Masot, an officer at the Israeli embassy in London, discussing plans to "take down" members of the British parliament, including a government minister. "

and they did the US lobby but Al Jazeera didn't broadcast the program by pressure from Israel gov...

Bremsstrahlung · Dec 17, 2018

anamika said:
Steven Salaita, the tenured professor at UIUC was fired for his remarks critical of Israel's disproportionate slaughter of the Palestinians during the Gaza war. He was fired because big time donors to the University threatened to withdraw their funding and money for the University. There was so much controversy around his firing from a tenured position that the Chancellor had to resign and the University settled with Salaita.

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2014-09-02/salaita-prompted-donors-fury.html
https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-the-salaita-case-20140915-column.html

So how does one discuss the punishment meted out to a professor who dared to criticize the Israeli state here without discussing the role of money in what was done to him? If it's anti-Semitic to do so, then there can be no examination or investigation into why Salaita was fired. And the cause has to be ignored.

It's very common in academia to stifle free speech when it comes to Palestine and punish professors who talk about Israeli atrocities or support the Palestinian movement. And there's a reason for why this is done easily.

Go ahead and ban me for mentioning the role money plays. I could do with a time out.

It's also strange that you never hear a peep about this kind of thing from those free speech warrior types.

Deleted member 8463 · Dec 17, 2018

Hasbara trolls are a thing. It's not some snide conspiracy. They are paid to confront criticism of Israel online and to explicitly call out that criticism as antisemitic. This has been a thing for a while so people can get pretty exasperated in these kinda threads and fingers get pointed, even if tongue-in-cheek.

Cocaloch said:
Considering that antisemitism in this thread has been defined to include advocating for a democratic one state solution, uh sure I guess. It's definitely going to get some people that care literally at all about Palestinians, which as far as I can tell is antisemitism for a large number of people here.

It's maddening. But it always is.

Xun · Dec 17, 2018

Fuck Israel, seriously.

It's so incredibly frustrating they're getting away with murder.

MilesQ · Dec 17, 2018

NervousXtian said:
OK, what's your solution then? This is way beyond dogwhistles and some straight up anti-semitism.

What about the post is antisemitism? I'm genuinely curious.

The poster doesn't seem to be suggesting the jews control the media (which we all know is a nazi talking point), but rather that most western media is reluctant to be negative of Israel and its policies, whether that's through heavy lobbying or a fear of being called antisemitic is anyone's guess.

NervousXtian · Dec 17, 2018

Nah, the problem is how openly pro Palestine people are and how easily they will say fuck Israel.. when they honestly have no dog in this fight and the issue isn't as black and white as people make it out to be.

Criticize Israel leadership and the building of settlements. Criticize how Israel doesn't go for an eye-for-an-eye but a 100 eyes for an eye. Yet to just say Fuck Israel makes me question why you are so easily saying Fuck Israel.

What other countries are you saying Fuck (insert whole country).

Deleted member 6230 · Dec 17, 2018

NervousXtian said:
Nah, the problem is how openly pro Palestine people are and how easily they will say fuck Israel.. when they honestly have no dog in this fight and the issue isn't as black and white as people make it out to be.

Criticize Israel leadership and the building of settlements. Criticize how Israel doesn't go for an eye-for-an-eye but a 100 eyes for an eye. Yet to just say Fuck Israel makes me question why you are so easily saying Fuck Israel.

What other countries are you saying Fuck (insert whole country).

I read "fuck Israel" as fuck the Israeli government

Lentic · Dec 17, 2018

kambaybolongo said:
People in this thread really getting banned for stating the simple fact that Israel has an outsize amount of influence on American politics and media? That is in no way antisemitic.

Yeah, I'm a little confused why that poster was banned. Representation in media is very much a thing and it's silly to ignore that. This very incident is an example of that.

Deleted member 22490 · Dec 17, 2018

I'm confused as to why those posters got banned as well. Nothing in those posts were anti-Semitic.

Gobias-Ind · Dec 17, 2018

EnlightenedMint · Dec 17, 2018

Gobias-Ind said:

Was just about to post this, so fucking ridiculous.

Deleted member 8463 · Dec 17, 2018

NervousXtian said:
Nah, the problem is how openly pro Palestine people are and how easily they will say fuck Israel.. when they honestly have no dog in this fight and the issue isn't as black and white as people make it out to be.

Criticize Israel leadership and the building of settlements. Criticize how Israel doesn't go for an eye-for-an-eye but a 100 eyes for an eye. Yet to just say Fuck Israel makes me question why you are so easily saying Fuck Israel.

What other countries are you saying Fuck (insert whole country).

Supporting Palestinian people openly is problematic? You're casually ignoring the illegal occupation and blockade Israel are imposing. And the litany of literal fucking war crimes. Excuse people for rooting for the oppressed and not the oppressor.

Jeb · Dec 17, 2018

There are strong Isreal supporting lobby groups like Aipac, any one who is familiar with US politics should already know this.

Jeb · Dec 17, 2018

Gobias-Ind said:

Frickin heart breaking.

kambaybolongo · Dec 17, 2018

Helio said:
I'm confused as to why those posters got banned as well. Nothing in those posts were anti-Semitic.

Apeach said:
Yeah, I'm a little confused why that poster was banned. Representation in media is very much a thing and it's silly to ignore that. This very incident is an example of that.

It's honestly pretty troubling to see the mods get so trigger happy when it comes to comes to criticism of Israel

Cocaloch · Dec 17, 2018

NervousXtian said:
Nah, the problem is how openly pro Palestine people are and how easily they will say fuck Israel.. when they honestly have no dog in this fight and the issue isn't as black and white as people make it out to be.

Criticize Israel leadership and the building of settlements. Criticize how Israel doesn't go for an eye-for-an-eye but a 100 eyes for an eye. Yet to just say Fuck Israel makes me question why you are so easily saying Fuck Israel.

What other countries are you saying Fuck (insert whole country).

Saudi Arabia for one. Coincidentally both states are very similar in origin and in how they've aquired their geopolitical position.

And the issue isn't black and white, but it's far closer to the anti-colonial stance than the zionist one. Plus the whole power differential means regardless of stances in the abstract it's the Palestinians that suffer now.

junomars · Dec 17, 2018

NervousXtian said:
Nah, the problem is how openly pro Palestine people are and how easily they will say fuck Israel.. when they honestly have no dog in this fight and the issue isn't as black and white as people make it out to be.

Criticize Israel leadership and the building of settlements. Criticize how Israel doesn't go for an eye-for-an-eye but a 100 eyes for an eye. Yet to just say Fuck Israel makes me question why you are so easily saying Fuck Israel.

What other countries are you saying Fuck (insert whole country).

Generally people will side with the oppressed vs the oppressors. What you should really question is how could people so easily support a government like Israel's.

Gobias-Ind said:

Shit like this is just nuts. Religious freedom not protected in this country anymore?

GenTask · Dec 17, 2018

manchego obfuscator said:
descent further and further into apartheid territory.

imo, it already descended into the shame of apartheid long ago - I'm not sure how much further a country can go than literally creating a walled off territory as the largest open air prison ever for indigenous peoples. I can't imagine something like that existing in the U.S. From this point on, it's more a descent into madness and if there comes a time when the madness ends, Israeli society will look back on these decades in the way that nations like the U.S. have the dark cloud and shame of what was done to Native Americans and other groups throughout history. There will probably come a time for healing, but unfortunately people don't do anything until it goes literally even more off the rails. For me, I first became more 'aware' of what was happening there when the activist Rachel Corrie was killed in 2003.

As an aside, also it doesn't surprise me that Trump called for shooting people on the U.S. southern border for throwing rocks. Most of what he says is despicable, but he might have jumped on the idea more after seeing the response to Palestinian protests. There are consequences to actions taken as others may emulate it. There's a documentary by journalist Abby Martin that kind of goes over how the society there reacts to what is going on there too.

Aftervirtue said:
100 years from now, as historians look back at the multitude of Israeli atrocities committed against the Palestinians, they will certainly not be sympathetic to Israel and the US. The actions of the Israeli governments are the definition of deplorable, uncivilized and backwards.

It's unfortunate that might be the reality. I just hope there comes a time when people, or rather humanity, can properly heal from these mistakes we dig ourselves into instead of repeating them.

Zvonimir Boban · Dec 17, 2018

NervousXtian said:
Nah, the problem is how openly pro Palestine people are and how easily they will say fuck Israel.. when they honestly have no dog in this fight and the issue isn't as black and white as people make it out to be.

Criticize Israel leadership and the building of settlements. Criticize how Israel doesn't go for an eye-for-an-eye but a 100 eyes for an eye. Yet to just say Fuck Israel makes me question why you are so easily saying Fuck Israel.

What other countries are you saying Fuck (insert whole country).

Fuck Saudi Arabia.

Easy.

Oh shit does that make me Islamophobic?

Gobias-Ind said:

Deserves its own thread tbh.

y2dvd · Dec 17, 2018

NervousXtian said:
Nah, the problem is how openly pro Palestine people are and how easily they will say fuck Israel.. when they honestly have no dog in this fight and the issue isn't as black and white as people make it out to be.

Criticize Israel leadership and the building of settlements. Criticize how Israel doesn't go for an eye-for-an-eye but a 100 eyes for an eye. Yet to just say Fuck Israel makes me question why you are so easily saying Fuck Israel.

What other countries are you saying Fuck (insert whole country).

So what does that tell you if they have no fight in the matter but see abuses by the idf and calls it out? They are most objective in the matter. Any criticism of isreali government being labeled as anti-Semitic is gross.

Marc Lamont Hill fired by CNN over Isreal remarks

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