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HomokHarcos

Member
Jul 11, 2018
2,447
Canada
Take for example Daredevil. If Stan Lee and Bill Everett had owned the rights to the character we would have never seen the much more acclaimed Frank Miller run. Same thing with the X-Men. If it had stopped with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby we wouldn't have gotten the excellent Chris Claremont. Some times another person can take a series and make it better.
 
Feb 1, 2018
4,914
Texas
There's strengths and weaknesses with both comics and manga.

I prefer one singular vision throughout, so manga just appeals to me more, but there's been tons of comics I've enjoyed over the years.
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,604
I think over time it's nice to see different artists in western comics, but sometimes I LIKE the consistency. Like, I've read comics that are only a few issues long (collected into a single trade paperback or two), and EVERY issue would have a different artist for the same short mini series. That kind of bugs me, because I'll love the art I started with, and not so much some of the others, and really distracts me from the story when it's switched out every issue :/
 
Oct 26, 2017
35,588
It's the biggest strength of cape comics. The downside is the potential lack of character consistency with each new iteration. One writer's take on a character can be wildly different than another writer's.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
Nop, for one I like that's manga is just one story and has an end ( except Berserk and Vagabond). Multi takes on the same character are weird to me.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
It's weird that the American comic industry was locked into one kind of story told in one kind of way for like four decades before alternatives started popping up, off the back of Frederick Wertham arguing that comics were causing moral degeneracy in America's youth, so most everything beyond ultra sanitized superhero comics died for about 20 years.

I've loved superhero comics for over a decade, but I'm starting to realize I don't really want to stick around. It always comes back to the same characters and the same plot beats, and I'm seeing those in other mediums that aren't sold at $4 a pop. Characters I love now won't go through meaningful growth or development, and eventually they'll become as tired too, only new characters can't come in either because the audience still reading superhero comics wants the same characters in their most iconic state.

Anyway I don't really know if "artists owning their creations means we wouldn't see them later" is the greatest way to put it either, in an industry where the real creator of Batman was sold out by his co-author and died penniless and officially unacknowledged until the last decade, and the obvious counterpoint is that Frank Miller could have still written Daredevil, he'd just be writing the characters of Stan Lee and Bill Everett, not Marvel's.
 

Geeklat

Member
Feb 13, 2018
268
While that can be good, sometimes a writer can take such control over a character you like that they turn them into something completely different. Combine that with long runs on a book and you could end up not reading Spider-Man for 5 years. Then you end up not getting to read Fantastic Four because the author moved books and turned one of your favorite characters into a different character. Some writers write the character given to them. Some of them want so much to write their own stuff that they change the character into someone new and well, you either dig it or you don't.
 
Oct 28, 2017
834
Netherlands
Like others have said, there's upsides and downsides to both approaches. One big upside to the approach Manga takes is that it gives pretty big definitive endings to some big series.

Whilst Dragon Ball and Naruto are still ongoing as franchises, both stories have clear definitive endings built into them by their respective creators. Endings one can use to move on to other stuff. Most big american superhero comics don't have this and wind up in an infinite loop of similar plotbeats decades onward.
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,407
I feel like superhero comics have no stakes, because you know the next author who comes along can retcon everything.
 

TissueBox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,020
Urinated States of America
They're honestly very different, and I like that distinction.

It's like seasons. When you get a little tired of manga, you dive into comics. And vice versa. ^^'

Comics are almost made in the tradition of old-fashioned oral storytelling and myth sharing, which is fitting, I guess.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
47,005
This is my unpopular take when it comes to Dragon Ball.

Toriyama wrote the original story, and it will always be there. Just like Stan Lee's original runs will always be there.

But I don't think he needs to be involved with every facet of the story telling here in 2021, to the point where work on the series literally stops until he finishes his stories/drafts. I'd love to see talented younger writers give their takes on that universe. If Toriyama isn't going to do anything with, say, Goten and Trunks, let someone write those stories. Let someone write Mr. Satan and Boo stories. Let someone write Bulma stories. etc.


Obviously it goes without saying that this all assumes the execution is good, or else we end up with GT.


Who is the Jonathan Hickman of the Dragon Ball universe? Someone who appreciates all of that lore AND is an incredible storyteller in their own right?
 

Tuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,583
Nah, I'm not into multiverse stuff at all, or even just alternate takes on the same story. I kind of actively hate it. I much rather one consistent world and story true to a single authors vision.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,463
This is my unpopular take when it comes to Dragon Ball.

Toriyama wrote the original story, and it will always be there. Just like Stan Lee's original runs will always be there.

But I don't think he needs to be involved with every facet of the story telling here in 2021, to the point where work on the series literally stops until he finishes his stories/drafts. I'd love to see talented younger writers give their takes on that universe. If Toriyama isn't going to do anything with, say, Goten and Trunks, let someone write those stories. Let someone write Mr. Satan and Boo stories. Let someone write Bulma stories. etc.


Obviously it goes without saying that this all assumes the execution is good, or else we end up with GT.


Who is the Jonathan Hickman of the Dragon Ball universe? Someone who appreciates all of that lore AND is an incredible storyteller in their own right?
Toriyama isn't really the one writing the new dragonball stuff any more (I think at most he gives very, very vague outlines which are fleshed out by Toyotaro and/or the anime staff) and if anything the neglect of characters like Goten and Trunks has only gotten way worse.
 

JosephL64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
Houston
I tried to get into comics for a while, but it's just a very high wall to get over.


Constant reboots(except for the things fans like?), vague continuity, the story continuing in a different running series that jumps back&forth, etc.


I do get your take, which is why if I attempt to get into comics I might read smaller self-contained stories. I just love how simple manga is, you start on volume one and you're pretty much set. I personally wouldn't be into multiple authors' takes on the manga I read, but I'm not familiar with DragonBall(I think spinoffs got different authors?) so maybe it works out.
 

whiteninja

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,794
Thats what led to the huge amount of confusion I get with western comics. I have no freaking clue what ppl are talking about half the time when it comes to them. Unless its stuff from animated shows or movies which makes things more compact and easier to follow.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,503
That is a cool aspect of the medium in America, especially when a writes raises the bar for characters that are decades old, but I think Manga would have to first start with commonly having writers that are not being asked to draw the comic too.

Examples of it in manga seems to mostly come when the IP crosses to another medium. Mamoru Oshii's Ghost in the Shell comes to mind as a similar example of an author reinventing the IP to align with their intellectual sensibilities.
 
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Mugenhunt

Member
Oct 17, 2019
482
It is important to note that it's really only DC and Marvel superhero comics that go through many different creative teams over the years, and that there's tons of American comics made by a consistent creative team telling one story.
 

Curler

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,604
I do get your take, which is why if I attempt to get into comics I might read smaller self-contained stories. I just love how simple manga is, you start on volume one and you're pretty much set.

I feel pretty much the same here, story-wise. I focus on short mini-series that are their own self-contained stories, rather than requiring years and years of previous knowledge to know what's going on. It's too much to try and grasp that whole thing, and hard to know where to start if you like having a chronological order to go in. Even with manga, sometimes there will be side stories or alternate settings, but you don't always NEED the prior knowledge of the main series to enjoy it.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,463
That is a cool aspect of the medium in america, but I think Manga would have to first start with commonly having writers that are not being asked to draw the comic too.
Plenty of manga are drawn and written by two different people. Like single creator manga are still probably more common, but artist-writer duos are behind a lot of noteworthy series as well
 

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,081
Phoenix, AZ
Nop, for one I like that's manga is just one story and has an end ( except Berserk and Vagabond). Multi takes on the same character are weird to me.

Yeah, this. I want new stories with new characters written by different people. Not the same characters every time written by different people.

Though there's also the fact I have zero interest in American superheroes so I wouldn't read those comics anyway.
 

SlowRiot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
78
The main thing I like about manga vs alot of western comics is that shit fucking ends. I don't feel like I need 50 years of Spiderman stories that feel like wheel spinning, but the market structure for comics ensure that what I'm going to get from now until eternity.

While something like One Piece, while long as hell is constantly progressing and will someday have a definitive end.

I feel like western comics and superhero comics in particular don't know how to move on and let things go.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,811
This kinda only applies to Superhero comics. Everything else tends to have a consistent writer with an artist switch maybe here or there.
 

Xterrian

Member
Apr 20, 2018
2,798
It is a strength of western comics.

Still, I prefer the singular, consistent story of manga. It's hard to get invested in a comic book story when you know the next author can retcon any development with the hero, their supporting characters, a villain, etc.

Also while a manga being or worse becoming bad is unfortunate, I'd argue it beats the comic book alternative: hoping the next run after a disappointing or boring run is better, and getting something equivalent to One More Day. Basically western comics can get stuck in the Sonic Cycle of hype or hope followed by rubbish.

Edit: I'll add that the above mainly applies to the superhero stories by Marvel and DC. There's plenty of great western graphic novels which follow a one writer and story path.
 
Jun 3, 2018
100
I mean, when you think about it, a lot of manga are really just different takes on a specific genre formula. It's propably most obvious with shonen manga which often boil down to "dragonball but with x instead of ki" aren't they?
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,503
Lupin III is the closest analogue I can think of right now, and at least that is one example where it has been a very successful, then again, it is primarily through movies and tv series rather than new manga.
 

Daxa

Member
Jan 10, 2018
622
I don't mean to be a (total) downer, but a big reason is also that most American creators end up having their characters taken away from them. Ask Moore how he feels about all the things done with Watchmen.

The working conditions for mangaka are awful, but there is still some deference afforded them, including when adaptations are made.

The question becomes what an ideal model is where creators are respected, treated well, and retain ownership and a substantial cut of profits.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
I loved the last Kitaro reboot, even though the original creator is dead and the writers were mostly new to the franchise. I think we'll see this more and more with manga/anime as original creators of successful older series start passing away, although it will take a while to reach late 80s/90s series which was the period with many international successes.

Toriyama isn't really the one writing the new dragonball stuff any more (I think at most he gives very, very vague outlines which are fleshed out by Toyotaro and/or the anime staff) and if anything the neglect of characters like Goten and Trunks has only gotten way worse.

He wrote the script for Revival F and the Broly movie and those feature Goten and Trunks even less than the tv show/manga so it's clear that it's all due to Toriyama. I'd guess he regrets retiring the older non-Saiyan characters and introducing them in their place for the Buu Saga.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,727
idk. my favourite cape comic of the decade was matt fraction's hawkeye. it was a joy from issue to issue and then that was that. i tried reading hawkeye and kate stuff afterwards but i just didn't connect to any of it the way i connected to fraction's run. and then i read a lot of fraction's other stuff and loved it too, but it still felt really brutal that i needed to remember i'd never see any more of that particular vision of a character after i was done.

i guess it's a double edged sword because by the same virtue where writers move on from characters and the stories, stuff like that could've happened at all, but in the end i hate feeling like i'm reading something i love and then it'll just hit a dead end or some other writer tries to figure out the magic formula to their predecessor's run.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
idk. my favourite cape comic of the decade was matt fraction's hawkeye. it was a joy from issue to issue and then that was that. i tried reading hawkeye and kate stuff afterwards but i just didn't connect to any of it the way i connected to fraction's run. and then i read a lot of fraction's other stuff and loved it too, but it still felt really brutal that i needed to remember i'd never see any more of that particular vision of a character after i was done.

i guess it's a double edged sword because by the same virtue where writers move on from characters and the stories, stuff like that could've happened at all, but in the end i hate feeling like i'm reading something i love and then it'll just hit a dead end or some other writer tries to figure out the magic formula to their predecessor's run.
Wow, I think the bolded is what drove me away from comics in the end. I was super into Remender's run of Flash Thompson Venom in high school, but when I tried to branch out to other series with Eddie Brock I just couldn't get into it. I guess the alternate takes are great when you can enjoy all of them but not so much when you get attached to a particular one.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
Yeah, this. I want new stories with new characters written by different people. Not the same characters every time written by different people.

Though there's also the fact I have zero interest in American superheroes so I wouldn't read those comics anyway.

Some of them seem interesting, if you go outside of DC or Marvel there is some good stuff, but I am already use to stories having a closing, and seeing how DC and marvel go about rebooting all the time, makes me less inclined to give western comics a chance.
 

KamenSenshi

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,867
That's the appeal of manga for me. One person telling their story then it ends. All these different people doing a character that just happens to have the same name but is totally different might as well be a different character. Western media has issues with letting go and coming up with something new. Once something is popular it just gets ridden into dust.
 

turbobrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,081
Phoenix, AZ
Some of them seem interesting, if you go outside of DC or Marvel there is some good stuff, but I am already use to stories having a closing, and seeing how DC and marvel go about rebooting all the time, makes me less inclined to give western comics a chance.

Yeah, its mostly the DC and Marvel stuff that I have zero interest in. Anything else I might be more willing to check out. I also find superhero stuff kinda boring.
 

TissueBox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,020
Urinated States of America
Calling superheros modern myths is always dishonest

I agree, frankly, always have. Primarily on the basis that superheroes are commercial and not in any way the foundation for an actual belief system, culture, or piece of historical documentation. It is the idea of collaborative reiteration, though, that one can draw parallels to, between something like that of oral lore, television, and comics. I suppose the naturally transmitted oral tellings of myth and commercial entertainment do clash by design, though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,365
Agreed, I love alternate takes and multiverse stuff as it allows you tell near infinite stories with a character or universe and creators don't have to feel boxed in by continuity. I like the manga approach too though, I appreciate both.
 

rokninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
302
Tempe, AZ
While that can be good, sometimes a writer can take such control over a character you like that they turn them into something completely different. Combine that with long runs on a book and you could end up not reading Spider-Man for 5 years. Then you end up not getting to read Fantastic Four because the author moved books and turned one of your favorite characters into a different character. Some writers write the character given to them. Some of them want so much to write their own stuff that they change the character into someone new and well, you either dig it or you don't.

This is my biggest frustration with the big two in particular - you never know what you're going to get at the end of a run, or hell sometimes in the middle of a run. Character consistency goes all over the place, and instead of getting new characters, we tend to get rewrites and revisions of old ones that sometimes look exactly the same, or are total revamps.

It can feel like severe whiplash stepping away from a series for even a short while, coming back to it and finding out it's not only rebooted, but the character you started reading it for is now completely different, or in some cases just outright GONE.

I've been burned by that quite a few times.
 

Sesha

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,826
That happens sometimes in manga and anime. Boruto until Kishi recently came back and DBSuper were exactly that. Not to mention Dragonball GT. Pluto takes place in the Astroboy universe.

Calling superheros modern myths is always dishonest, something owned can never follow those traditions.

I love cape comics to an extent, but superheroes being modern myths is some grand pretentious wank. Nerds huffed too much Joseph Campbell farts in the 80s and now shit has lodged itself in the industry's collective frontal lobe.
 

dsosarod

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,353
I hate that about comics, that's why I only read comics that have only 1 writer, their creator. Usually stuff from Image or any indie comic publisher.

From time to time I get sucked back into the comics from DC and Marvel, but I eventually see those as a waste of time because they won't have and endgame.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
It's definitely a powerful advantage of both.

I think with comics, they got better once I learned to accept that. There are some comics where I used to suffer through them because I liked the character. It also made me angry when I was younger - "how could they fuck this up!"

But then, I realized that each run could be it's own, complete story. An example - Hickman's Avengers. I read it. I loved it. He's particularly great at telling a grand tale & putting the toys back into the box. I don't have to worry about what's happening in the current Avengers story. I have a great one I can read and re-read that is self-consistent.

And if he does something else, I can read that too. And if another interesting Avengers run comes along, I can read that. It's all good! The endgame is when that writer finishes their story.

For manga - it'll always be self-contained (for the most part) and that too is awesome. Barring spinoffs or manga that go on forever. But each writer that comes along there gets to create their own new worlds with their own rules... it's great.
 

dhlt25

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,817
i hate comics style stuff, everything is just so convoluted and there's no ending ever. I much prefer the story telling style of manga
 
Aug 13, 2019
3,583
I agree that it's great seeing different writers' interpretations of characters, but it always sucks when the next writer to tackle an ongoing decides to retcon anything they don't like or a character regresses from where they left off before the writer took over.
 

delete12345

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
19,691
Boston, MA
Manga is praised for having a consistent writer, however, if the plot doesn't end the story in a well-rounded manner or have some factors alienating the fans, it can backfire easily, and if it gets serious, it can end up with an early axe.

Some prominent examples: Mx0, X/1999, Time Paradox Ghostwriter.

This isn't the case with DC superheroes comics though, but I do wished they wrap up stories or make then consistent.

For me, the best format for digesting these media are the light novel or "web novel series" types.

For example: Death March to the Parallel World Rhapsody, Shakugan no Shana.