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Deleted member 1849

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Oct 25, 2017
6,986
https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/5/18233699/game-developer-layoffs-unions-katie-chironis

We'd like to buy a home, or at least sign a lease for more than one year at a time. We'd like to have kids. Not now, but someday. This is when the conversation usually takes a dark turn.

You see, Max and I are both game designers. We have our dream jobs, in theory. But neither one of us has ever worked for a company longer than three years, despite our best efforts. This means that it's next to impossible to plan more than a year ahead. This situation isn't unique in the world of video game development, it's the normal state of affairs for so many of us.

How do you have a stable life in an industry which doesn't seem to offer one?

A great article by Katie Chironis from Riot Games, detailing the realities of working in an industry with seemingly zero job security.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,158
Other developers just leave. They go to regular tech companies, they return to school to learn new skills, they travel overseas, or they try something completely new. And they rarely come back. Video game development is remarkably efficient at chasing away talent; the industry often seems inhospitable to anyone who craves stability. Or health insurance, for that matter.

I have heard the same. And the crazy thing is, the industry actually got better in the last decade. It used to be that mass layoffs were more frequent when a game finished and that was a lot of mouths to feed while the next game started with a smaller team. Since the advent of dlc, some devs can work on that while others update tools and tech for the next game, prototype new features or games, etc.
 

sandboxgod

Attempting to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,919
Austin, Texas
Yeah that's very solid read indeed. If only every studio was like Nintendo and the avg employee has 13 yrs under their belt!
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,180
NYC
Not really. I'd say high risk high paying jobs. You can get a job as a finance associate and have pretty great job security but you won't be getting paid anywhere near what a game dev makes
Last time I checked game devs don't get paid all that much. There's lots of talk of engineers and coders heading off to better paying jobs with more stability. Have salaries increased?
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
Not really. I'd say high risk high paying jobs. You can get a job as a finance associate and have pretty great job security but you won't be getting paid anywhere near what a game dev makes
Developers in other industries get paid comparably, or higher than gamedevs.

It's that combination of worse or similar pay, along with worse stability and working hours, which makes a lot of devs leave the industry.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,199
Yeah, I find the volatility in the game development sector of software so worrying, must be stressful for developers. A great example is TellTale. TellTale games went from relatively lesser known studio, to having some mega successful games, games that could sustain a studio for years and years it seems, to then laying off most of their staff a few years later. I know the management there was poor, they made a lot of bad decisions, produced a lot of mediocre games, but I think that's more common in game development than most other sectors of software development.

Game developers generally work longer hours, for less pay, with worse benefits, and less job security than software developers with commensurate experience in other sectors of the software industry.

Not really. I'd say high risk high paying jobs. You can get a job as a finance associate and have pretty great job security but you won't be getting paid anywhere near what a game dev makes

Developers are paid below their knowledge/experience level if you broaden it out to the software industry as a whole. ~20% lower on average than similar experience/qualifications.

There isn't this volatility in the general software industry, or the insane crunch and other negatives of game software.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,942
Last time I checked game devs don't get paid all that much. There's lots of talk of engineers and coders heading off to better paying jobs with more stability.
Sorry. I'm talking about relatively. Just a quick google search says 83k is the average salary for a developer. A finance associate is getting like 40-45k starting out. So it's a lot more relatively
 

stryfee

Member
Apr 30, 2018
118
This is a solid fact. When I was contract every month heading towards each milestone was a nightmare.

Once I went perm I could finally breath and not worry about the next day, month or year.
 

sandboxgod

Attempting to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,919
Austin, Texas
You can look up most salaries for game devs on glassdoor.com. But even if the salary looks comparable to other industries-- it's not really, because you must consider they often crunch before shipping a title. Whether mandatory or not, you usually want that game to be awesome because it's your baby
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,158
Sorry. I'm talking about relatively. Just a quick google search says 83k is the average salary for a developer. A finance associate is getting like 40-45k starting out. So it's a lot more relatively
Err... what? Comparing an average with a starting salary? Fine, the average compensation paid by Goldman Sachs to its employees is $336,830.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
Haha no. My partner is a teacher here in Australia, fresh off her masters graduating last year and she got a rural placement for her first ever job in the classroom (not typically unusual due to desperately needing rural teachers) and it's a guaranteed life time job. Even better, she's off the bat on $80k, that's fucking nuts. Me? I'm now studying teacher aide while I continue to do my own work on my game ideas because I still feel passionate enough but it's no where near possible to do it properly.

The industry is bloated, I had roughly 150 people graduate with my games degree and about 5 are still in the industry proper. I know personally the devs of Think of the Children and one is still working full time but at a completely different studio. The games industry is fucking brutal, and even the most talented can be lost in the wind so easily.

Yeah, you get your highs like Stardew Valley or Shovel Knight as indie titles but they are so miniscule compared to the efforts seen by those actively working in the industry. Companies like Ubisoft employ thousands of people yet its still so dangerously toxic of an environment that you can't bet on your job staying there in a year's time. That's not good. At all.

Yet I love it all. Making games is some of the most creatively rewarding experiences I've ever had, despite the long nights and many hours wondering if this is right for me. It fucking sucks, but it also does reward you when you finally complete that project or get that bit of code working, even if no one ever sees your project come to life. It's just not a good industry for stable employee growth.
 

Ominym

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,069
Not really. I'd say high risk high paying jobs. You can get a job as a finance associate and have pretty great job security but you won't be getting paid anywhere near what a game dev makes
This simply isn't true.

According to Glassdoor, here are the salaries (including stock and bonus) for a Senior Software Engineer at game companies:
  • EA: $142K
  • Ubisoft: $123K - $137K
  • Activision: $117K
Now here are companies in the tech space with the same role:
  • Apple: $197K
  • Google: $193K
  • Facebook: $189K
This is the same for roles outside of engineering as well, the pay just isn't there like it is at tech companies in almost all cases; which makes things interesting when you consider that companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft want to get into the games streaming space and will have a major advantage when it comes to recruitment.
 

HamCormier

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,040
This simply isn't true.

According to Glassdoor, here are the salaries (including stock and bonus) for a Senior Software Engineer at game companies:
  • EA: $142K
  • Ubisoft: $123K - $137K
  • Activision: $117K
Now here are companies in the tech space with the same role:
  • Apple: $197K
  • Google: $193K
  • Facebook: $189K
This is the same for roles outside of engineering as well, the pay just isn't there like it is at tech companies in almost all cases; which makes things interesting when you consider that companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft want to get into the games streaming space and will have a major advantage when it comes to recruitment.

Those jobs are not in the same location, though.
 

jchap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,775
Really makes you appreciate that the average employee tenure at Nintendo is 13 years.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,376
New York
Yup. That's why I left years ago and it's one of the best decisions I ever made.

Fuck the lack of stability, the dudebro culture, the doubleshifts. Only to get a pat on the back and ass out the door.
 

RedWolfe

Banned
Dec 4, 2017
66
I figured out very early in my software engineering career that I would not want to step foot near game development/design as a means of making a living.

I initially felt like if it became my job, I would begin to like the hobby less and less. Then through my university years, reading about the turmoil of studios in the seventh gen era was basically the deciding factor. I haven't looked up the median salary for game developers recently but from my experience, most other software tracks pay comparatively and are generally much more stable. I've even been able to dabble in game development on the side which is a pretty good trade-off for me. I think things like stress and crunch comes naturally, unfortunately, in the SDLC but I've never experienced the working conditions that I've read about in any of the spotlight articles and have never been in fear of losing my job as long as I performed.

I realize that some people simply love the field and obviously we need them to get the great experiences we've been able to over the past few years. Being in a relationship or trying to start a life when you have to travel for weeks or months at a time is already hard enough sometimes; I can't imagine having to straight up pick up everything and move every year. I feel for them but man if it isn't frightening from the outside looking in.
 

Ominym

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,069
Those jobs are not in the same location, though.
Completely fair point. To compare the most analogous one, Ubisoft in San Francisco, still only grosses the $123K - $138K range, which is still under what people in that area are making for a similar role. Not to mention the perks and stability associated with the aforementioned tech companies.
 

HamCormier

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,040
And? EA's headquarters are in Redwood Shores, CA, and Activision is Santa Monica, and Ubi are based in Paris. Those other tech companies also have staff all over the world, not only at their HQ.
For examples, all the engine work of Frostbite is being worked in Sweden by DICE. Ubisoft has a lot of employees in Montreal, where the salary is still very competitive compared to other software companies.

Completely fair point. To compare the most analogous one, Ubisoft in San Francisco, still only grosses the $123K - $138K range, which is still under what people in that area are making for a similar role. Not to mention the perks and stability associated with the aforementioned tech companies.

I wouldn't count on Glassdoor to be an accurate representation of the industry's salaries for those companies. Unfortunately, that's all you have to go with when making a case that software companies are paying more.
 

Jakten

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,774
Devil World, Toronto
Yeah, I've been in the industry for about 10 years and have never not been terrified of losing my job. Was stuck in a pretty shitty manipulative situation because of it too. Had bosses corner me and scream at me for the most trivial shit. They like that fear, it helps them control people and I've seen many people be taken advantage of. They tricked some employees into shelling out all their money for pointless trips and fired them after as well for the most hilariously stupid reasons. Some of the stories I have working in the industry are crazy, It really sucks.
 

Deleted member 46922

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Aug 21, 2018
595
I don't know about gaming, but I do know about translating for Disney and Netflix, and I can imagine the way game companies operate would be close to my experience in that field. (I do realise developing a game takes many times the talent I had for just simply translating for these garbage companies).

They just don't give a shit, and it's quite stupid too, because making people feel replaceable is the worst thing you can do when you also want them to perform at their best.
That's why a lot of CEO's are just that dumb!
I honestly don't think most of them are talented or special at all, they just knew someone at the right place/time or got lucky, exceptions not included.
 

DaveB

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,513
New Hampshire, USA
I'm not saying gaming companies aren't a bit more ruthless, but I feel like that feeling is the same working in the private sector, period. A lot of companies would rather hire some kids fresh out of college for less money than pay long tenured folks higher salaries.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,501
Not meaning to sound like a dick but this isn't the case everywhere, but it's certainly a problem at others. Not everyone's experience is the same, so while I'm not diminishing what's written here, I don't want the takeaway to be that the whole industry is like this, because it isn't.
 

Ominym

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,069
I'm not saying gaming companies aren't a bit more ruthless, but I feel like that feeling is the same working in the private sector, period. A lot of companies would rather hire some kids fresh out of college for less money than pay long tenured folks higher salaries.
They all would to an extent, however, the video game industry takes a lot of leeway with the "dream job" rule and uses it to undercut pay across the board. Some junior level roles at tech companies are competitive with senior level roles at game companies compensation-wise.
 

MDSVeritas

Gameplay Programmer, Sony Santa Monica
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,030
developing business software from 9 to 5 and then gaming in your free time sounds way better

This issue often returns back to the point of personal preference. Engineering alternatives often pay better and more often than not allow for more consistent work hours than in games. But 8 hours of your day is also a significant chunk of time. In my experiences in the business software sphere I felt those work hours drag on a good amount, and if that chunk of time is not particularly fulfilling then you sort of hand over a fair portion of your life to just sort of be... lost.

I can certainly appreciate the perspective of those who say they would prefer that given the benefits, but I think both options can be attractive for different reasons.

All the same, it doesn't mean we shouldn't do all we can to make sure the games industry can provide sustainable and comfortable lifestyles who work within it as well as meaningful work.
 

Parham

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
295
This lines up pretty closely with my personal experiences. Not long after Bartlet Jones closed, I left the industry to join a regular tech company. As much as I have enjoyed professional game development, the hours and benefits outside the industry are markedly better. Game development still serves as a wonderful creative outlet though. I spend part of my newfound free time now as a hobbyist game dev.

Nothing against folks who still work in the industry, obviously. Everyone has a different relationship with their professional work.
 

yyr

Member
Nov 14, 2017
3,491
White Plains, NY
My dream job while I was growing up was to develop games for a living.

When I graduated college with a CS degree and I looked into the reality of the situation, I decided to go into IT instead. For the last 10 years, I've built arcade-style indie games strictly as a hobby. Most of you will never play any of my titles, or even hear my brand name mentioned by anybody, ever. But I have a job, and I'll still have one tomorrow, and next week, and next month, and next year, and that ultimately mattered to me more.


I work for a non-profit. I've been here for over 15 years, and one of the reasons I stay here is because I like job security, and being able to plan for the future. So, no, not like every job.
 

Zedelima

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,756
I think that is because if your game isn't a absolute sucess and you work for a publisher, your studio will be shutdown or hited with mass layoffs . (Unless you're a proven studio with a amazing track record)

The executives dont have much patience with big letdowns
 

ascii42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,802
This, combined with the recession, was one of the reasons why I basically completely abandoned the idea of going into the gaming industry when I was in college. I've instead worked for the DoD for my entire 9 year career without ever fearing the loss of my job.
I'm not sure what a solution would be.
 

Deleted member 46922

User requested account closure
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Aug 21, 2018
595
My dream job while I was growing up was to develop games for a living.

When I graduated college with a CS degree and I looked into the reality of the situation, I decided to go into IT instead. For the last 10 years, I've built arcade-style indie games strictly as a hobby. Most of you will never play any of my titles, or even hear my brand name mentioned by anybody, ever. But I have a job, and I'll still have one tomorrow, and next week, and next month, and next year, and that ultimately mattered to me more.



I work for a non-profit. I've been here for over 15 years, and one of the reasons I stay here is because I like job security, and being able to plan for the future. So, no, not like every job.

I changed from working for Disney, Netflix, Nickelodeon and name the sociopathic company, to a non profit job too.
And I've never been happier. :) I am helping to provide meals for the elderly in my town, and it's great. :)
 

Aswitch

"This guy are sick"
Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,130
Los Angeles, CA
One reason i've strayed from getting into game development. Almost made it my major in college, but yeah I would like more job security. Also crunch does not sound like a great time.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,309

Twelvy

Member
Oct 30, 2017
291
Tokyo
I earned below 30K€ after graduation while my friends started above 40K€. I chose to leave my country because the pay was too low and I was getting nowhere. My saving were only decreasing. I'm still in the game industry and my pay is ok (foreigners usually have a better pay), but I guess I could make way more in any other IT company.

Fortunately, the companies I worked with (some big names) always treated me well, but I have never been directly in production (I used to work around games, not on one specifically). I don't think the working hours are crazy (but I might be wrong). Of course, in any project oriented company, you have some deadline that sometimes requires extra work. Nothing to complain about though.

I really think it's a shame that game companies don't manage to keep their employees. Maybe they see no value in seniority.