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MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,577
Again it seems ignored that Avery was an abusive piece of shit and multiple of his partners have come forward to say he likely did it. It seems ignored that his record is significant. It seems ignored that he changed his story multiple times regarding his interactions with Theresa and the bonfire.

If you think he's innocent that's fine you have a right to your opinion, but it also means this.

1. You believe LE planted a substantial amount of evidence. This includes Theresa's vehicle, her belongings in the burn barrel, her remains in the fire pit, the bullet in the garage, and the blood in the car, among other things.

2. You believe her ex boyfriend did all of this.

The call records show Steven called her before and after we knew she had shown up. Steven's inconsistencies are at the very least suspect. Brendan was manipulated, but he also was inconsistent with his stories from the get go. For her to have been planted on Steven's property, law enforcement would have to get extremely lucky. Theresa would've had to have gone there, driven off, been murdered. They find her remains, belongings, and vehicle and ignore who really did it. Plant all of that in Steven's yard. I have a friend who believes LE actually pulled the trigger. This is crazy to me, but again right to opinions.
Nah man. I think either the creepy uncle or the one x boyfriend murdered her. I also think the only thing LE planted was the key, maybe the blood and bullet. I think LE were convinced Avery did it and planted evidence to secure a conviction. They believed the ends justified the means.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,911
Nah man. I think either the creepy uncle or the one x boyfriend murdered her. I also think the only thing LE planted was the key, maybe the blood and bullet. I think LE were convinced Avery did it and planted evidence to secure a conviction. They believed the ends justified the means.

Well the major problem is that we don't know anything about who else was a suspect.

Because the police never once considered anyone else a suspect or did any investigation.

"But we do have Avery in custody, right?"
 

msdstc

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,874
Nah man. I think either the creepy uncle or the one x boyfriend murdered her. I also think the only thing LE planted was the key, maybe the blood and bullet. I think LE were convinced Avery did it and planted evidence to secure a conviction. They believed the ends justified the means.

Yeah I should've included 3. that it was one his family members

My question is, if the boyfriend did it, what's the theory there? He followed her to Avery's and waited for her to leave? Then jumped her, killed her and planted everything on his property? Including her remains? Or did Law Enforcement plant that stuff on the property? I have trouble believing anybody but other people on the property as alternative suspects. There is too much of Theresa's stuff on the property- Her car, her keys, her remains, her belongings, etc. Moving ALL of that to the property and planting it would require a monumental cover up.

It also would likely mean the boyfriend was aware of Steven Avery's "vulnerability" so to speak in a coverup, knew she was going there and when, and timed it perfect. It also means LE looked the other way and let him get away with murder.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,577
Yeah I should've included 3. that it was one his family members

My question is, if the boyfriend did it, what's the theory there? He followed her to Avery's and waited for her to leave? Then jumped her, killed her and planted everything on his property? Including her remains? Or did Law Enforcement plant that stuff on the property? I have trouble believing anybody but other people on the property as alternative suspects. There is too much of Theresa's stuff on the property- Her car, her keys, her remains, her belongings, etc. Moving ALL of that to the property and planting it would require a monumental cover up.

It also would likely mean the boyfriend was aware of Steven Avery's "vulnerability" so to speak in a coverup, knew she was going there and when, and timed it perfect. It also means LE looked the other way and let him get away with murder.
I don't think LE looked the other way. They had blinders on and didn't even CONSIDER any other suspects. The ex boyfriend had been harassing her recently, deleted voicemails from her phone after she died, and was given unrestricted access to the crime scene during the search. You make it sound like he had to move a ton of shit and it'd be complicated, but he woulda had her vehicle, it's not like he had to move each item one by one. You also gotta remember the Avery property is fucking enormous, it's not just a little business, there are multiple quarrys, houses, etc. on that land. It's a lot of acres. He could have killed her wherever, transported her body in her car, burned her in that quarry and then dumped the ashes in Avery's burn pit. Then he parked the car on Avery's property and bounced. If that is what happened, it was a good fucking idea because the police were convinced Avery did it the second that girl went missing, and it was a perfect opportunity to railroad the dude that was about to bankrupt their department. Avery is a dumb fuck, but he's not so dumb he wouldn't use the fucking car crusher at his own salvage yard to get rid of a vehicle from a girl he murdered.
 
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captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,991
Houston
Well the major problem is that we don't know anything about who else was a suspect.

Because the police never once considered anyone else a suspect or did any investigation.

"But we do have Avery in custody, right?"
wasn't it the boyfriend/brother in law that directed "searchers" to the specific spot where the car was found? Acres and acres of land, found the car in 15 minutes. the fact that they didn't even consider any other suspects is suspect as hell. If there's one thing i've learned from watching ID or other crime shows a large chunk of people murdered are murdered by someone they know pretty well.

Again it seems ignored that Avery was an abusive piece of shit and multiple of his partners have come forward to say he likely did it.
from the reddit breakdown
Kratz describes the same choking/dragging incident as if two separate occasions in his book, but both clauses above are in reference to the same 2004 incident. This is the only domestic dispute with Jodi that involved police intervention. What isn't noted in Kratz's book about this specific allegation (not to downplay or dismiss other allegations, but we have no formal reports for those to go by) is the officers' remarks: "It should be noted that there was no physical evidence to support JODI'S claim that she was physically assaulted by AVERY. There were no marks around her neck which would have supported the choking claim. There also was no type of redness or markings where JODI claims she was struck by AVERY. JODI showed these areas to myself and Chief Gilbert; however, nothing was observed. JODI also was not willing to complete any type of paperwork associated with the DV incident. It should be noted that JODI did admit that she had been consuming alcohol this evening. A distinct odor of intoxicants was detected on her breath."
someone coming forward and saying they believe he did it, means fuckall unless they were witness to the event.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
I don't think LE looked the other way. They had blinders on and didn't even CONSIDER any other suspects. The ex boyfriend had been harassing her recently, deleted voicemails from her phone after she died, and was given unrestricted access to the crime scene during the search. He could have killed her wherever, transported her body in her car, burned her in that quarry and then dumped the ashes in Avery's burn pit. Then he parked the car on Avery's property and bounced. If that is what happened, it was a good fucking idea because the police were convinced Avery did it the second that girl went missing, and it was a perfect opportunity to railroad the dude that was about to bankrupt their department. Avery is a dumb fuck, but he's not so dumb he wouldn't use the fucking car crusher at his own salvage yard to get rid of a vehicle from a girl he murdered.

His brother and relatives lived only 100 yards away, if he tried crushing a car it would've meant them knowing, especially since Steven wasn't the one known for using the crusher.

There are witnesses to him tending to a fire, for sure someone would've seen him operating machinery to get the car into the crusher in the first place.

It also doesn't explain why Avery would lie about his last interactions with Halbach or his use of the fire pit that night if he was innocent.

The bone fragments in the pit were intertwined with metal, something that wouldn't occur if they were just dumped there.

And one of the pathologists suggests if they had been moved there from somewhere else she'd expect to see bone breakage which there wasn't.

Those bones from the quarry were never linked to Halbach, and in the pit were fragments from every bone in an adult woman's body.

I do find the boyfriend immensely weird though.
 

msdstc

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,874
I don't think LE looked the other way. They had blinders on and didn't even CONSIDER any other suspects. The ex boyfriend had been harassing her recently, deleted voicemails from her phone after she died, and was given unrestricted access to the crime scene during the search. You make it sound like he had to move a ton of shit and it'd be complicated, but he woulda had her vehicle, it's not like he had to move each item one by one. You also gotta remember the Avery property is fucking enormous, it's not just a little business, there are multiple quarrys, houses, etc. on that land. It's a lot of acres. He could have killed her wherever, transported her body in her car, burned her in that quarry and then dumped the ashes in Avery's burn pit. Then he parked the car on Avery's property and bounced. If that is what happened, it was a good fucking idea because the police were convinced Avery did it the second that girl went missing, and it was a perfect opportunity to railroad the dude that was about to bankrupt their department. Avery is a dumb fuck, but he's not so dumb he wouldn't use the fucking car crusher at his own salvage yard to get rid of a vehicle from a girl he murdered.

so what'd he carry her bones/ashes in a backpack? What about her cellphone/keys... If LE supposedly planted the key in Avery's house, when did they get the key from the boyfriend? The cellphone in the burn barrel? You really think it would be that easy?! Her car? where did he hide it? Did he hide it in his yard from the start? Or did he stash it somewhere? How the hell did he move it from wherever he initially had it to Avery's yard. Was this decided prior to killing Theresa? Meaning did he mastermind the whole murder and how it would play out, knowing he could dump it all on Steven?
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,577
so what'd he carry her bones/ashes in a backpack? Her car? where did he hide it? Did he hide it in his yard from the start? Or did he stash it somewhere? How the hell did he move it from wherever he initially had it to Avery's yard. Was this decided prior to killing Theresa? Meaning did he mastermind the whole murder and how it would play out, knowing he could dump it all on Steven?
Bro, It's not my job to know those things, I'm not a detective. I remember a wheelbarrow being mentioned as the possible method to transport the ashes. I also wasn't there so I don't know why you're coming at me like I'm the fucking defense attorney, simmer down you're coming off as super fucking condescending here. There are multiple other theories that are just as plausible as "Steve Avery Killed her in his filthy ass garage and somehow there's no blood in there, while Brendan Dassey killed her in the bedroom at the same time Steve was killing her in the garage and somehow there's no blood in there either."
 

msdstc

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,874
Bro, It's not my job to know those things, I'm not a detective. I remember a wheelbarrow being mentioned as the possible method to transport the ashes. I also wasn't there so I don't know why you're coming at me like I'm the fucking defense attorney, simmer down you're coming off as super fucking condescending here. There are multiple other theories that are just as plausible as "Steve Avery Killed her in his filthy ass garage and somehow there's no blood in there, while Brendan Dassey killed her in the bedroom at the same time Steve was killing her in the garage and somehow there's no blood in there either."

I'm not at all, I'm asking simple questions. Suggesting the boyfriend planted all of that stuff is way the hell more of a stretch than thinking Steven Avery did it.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,911
"Steve Avery Killed her in his filthy ass garage and somehow there's no blood in there, while Brendan Dassey killed her in the bedroom at the same time Steve was killing her in the garage and somehow there's no blood in there either."

It blows my mind that not only was this presented as the events in question; but that people at the time bought it; and people are still believing this as a possible chain of events.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,577
It blows my mind that not only was this presented as the events in question; but that people at the time bought it; and people are still believing this as a possible chain of events.
Not only that, two people are spending their lives in prison and that's the story that they were convicted of.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,911
Not only that, two people are spending their lives in prison and that's the story that they were convicted of.

Additionally-if people are willing to believe that the police planted evidence (they key) to secure a conviction, which seems likely-then it's not hard to follow that more evidence was planted. Which means the police were very focused on convicting Avery instead of investigating the real crime and that means there possible a real killer still walking around scot free.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,844
I find it hard to believe they didn't. I would wager the boyfriend had an alibi, something Steven was unable to provide. In fact he stumbled on his alibi a few times.
Well based on the original documentary (which could have omitted stuff in this aspect granted), they basically had every available police officer in the county on the Avery compound for an extended period of time and then immediately arrested him.
 

Syder

The Moyes are Back in Town
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
12,543
He fuckin' did it.

Hope the nephew gets exonerated though.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,577
I find it hard to believe they didn't. I would wager the boyfriend had an alibi, something Steven was unable to provide. In fact he stumbled on his alibi a few times.
I really don't think they did. They even had the ex boyfriend as part of the search crew all over Avery Salvage. And he had those gnarly cuts on his hands, acted really shifty, had been still interested in Theresa romantically, but she did not feel the same, and it seems was beginning a relationship with her roommate, who also happened to be one of her ex boyfriend's best friends. The fact that he admitted to "guessing" her password to access her voicemails, and the phone company records showed that voicemails had been deleted, and the court just said "hey that's a crazy whoopsie daisy!, so anyways" is fucked up.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,911
I really don't think they did. They even had the ex boyfriend as part of the search crew all over Avery Salvage. And he had those gnarly cuts on his hands, acted really shifty, had been still interested in Theresa romantically, but she did not feel the same, and it seems was beginning a relationship with her roommate, who also happened to be one of her ex boyfriend's best friends. The fact that he admitted to "guessing" her password to access her voicemails, and the phone company records showed that voicemails had been deleted, and the court just said "hey that's a crazy whoopsie daisy!, so anyways" is fucked up.


https://www.newsweek.com/making-mur...resa-halbach-steven-avery-bobby-dassey-691428
  • New evidence allegedly connects Halbach's ex-boyfriend Ryan Hillegas with the crime scene. Hillegas was in possession of her day planner, from which he tore a page, giving to a friend of Halbach's, who, in turn, handed it over to the police on November 3. Denise Coakley claims she spoke to Halbach on the phone at 11.35 a.m. on October 31—the day she died. Halbach was driving her RAV4 vehicle at the time and made notes in her day planner. The attorneys say this is evidence the day planner was in the vehicle when Halbach was killed and the fact that it ended up in Hillegas' possession would have linked him to the crime scene.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,745
CBS talking about show this morning. Pisses me off to see Ken Kratz has managed to keep a career. Like...how the fuck is that guy still working?
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
I think he probably did do it, but there was most assuredly reasonable doubt.

My issue with the cover up story, despite how sketchy the police seemed, how fortunately timed it all seemed. The defense all depended on they did it in desperation due to his impending case. How often has a woman you met randomly been murdered the day you saw her last? It's absurd to believe that. So what happened? The police directed the murder by a disgruntled ex and then put it on someone else? No. That obviously did not happen.

Maybe it wasn't Avery, but it was obviously someone on his estate. And no amount of missing answer phone messages, unneeded body transporting or lack of DNA means anything.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
I'm not following you... I'd imagine most murdered women have also met some innocent people on the day they died.
The specific person who's suing a police department for 36m dollars? Confirmed to be the last person known to have seen the victim alive? Of course almost everyone who's ever been murdered met someone that day, but in that situation?

Essentially the defence stated that the police believed Avery did it, but planted to make it stick. The state said, and correctly, for it to have been a fix, the police would have had to murder her, or had her murdered. Otherwise the timing is just practically impossible.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,844
The specific person who's suing a police department for 36m dollars? Confirmed to be the last person known to have seen the victim alive? Of course almost everyone who's ever been murdered met someone that day, but in that situation?

Essentially the defence stated that the police believed Avery did it, but planted to make it stick. The state said, and correctly, for it to have been a fix, the police would have had to murder her, or had her murdered. Otherwise the timing is just practically impossible.
Not necessarily, the mystery murderer (let's say the ex boyfriend) could have followed her and killed her on Avery's property and the police just filled in the blanks to make it stick.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Not necessarily, the mystery murderer (let's say the ex boyfriend) could have followed her and killed her on Avery's property and the police just filled in the blanks to make it stick.
So it was just a coincidence? The lawsuit could have only been a factor in that scenario if the killer selected a patsy based on it. And logically it would have made him a poor one, as public support and any sign of impropriety would have made pursuing him as a suspect a risky move.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,844
So it was just a coincidence? The lawsuit could have only been a factor in that scenario if the killer selected a patsy based on it. And logically it would have made him a poor one, as public support and any sign of impropriety would have made pursuing him as a suspect a risky move.
It could have been a coincidence yes. And impropriety? Come on, did you watch the documentary? They specifically requested the local police not be involved due to the conflict of interest yet it was the local police who found EVERY SINGLE piece of important evidence.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
It could have been a coincidence yes. And impropriety? Come on, did you watch the documentary? They specifically requested the local police not be involved due to the conflict of interest yet it was the local police who found EVERY SINGLE piece of important evidence.
Yeah, but how would the killer know they would do that? Logically they wouldn't have been involved at all, and they shouldn't have been. The fact that they were doesn't change that logically, if it was another killer hoping to lay it on Avery, they should have presumed that department wouldn't be involved, so wouldn't be working to ensure Avery gets fingered for it.

If that was the case, obviously it worked out great for the killer, but I think practically any other person who had a criminal record would have made for a better patsy logically, even if practically it shook out how it did.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,844
Yeah, but how would the killer know they would do that? Logically they wouldn't have been involved at all, and they shouldn't have been. The fact that they were doesn't change that logically, if it was another killer hoping to lay it on Avery, they should have presumed that department wouldn't be involved, so wouldn't be working to ensure Avery gets fingered for it.

If that was the case, obviously it worked out great for the killer, but I think practically any other person who had a criminal record would have made for a better patsy logically, even if practically it shook out how it did.
Look, I'm not saying my idea is actually what happened. Reality is based on the police interference I don't know what is really true or not so its impossible to tell. He very well could have done it.
 

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,744
It's not even about whether or not he did it. Guilty or not, and hes most certainly got an even chance of being either, that man did not get due process.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Ah, yes. The "you" threw me off.
Well even that. To my knowledge I've never met anyone that's been murdered. Let alone on a day I met them. Let alone with me being the last person to see them. Let alone it being after I'd been wrongly imprisoned and are suing the police for it.

The entire defense was that it was in retaliation, to stop the pay out and to save the officers in question. That requires the timing to be very, very specific. Unless Avery happened to be meeting people who ended up being murdered as like a weekly occurrence, that defense just makes no sense at all.
 

Jmanunknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
853
So it was just a coincidence? The lawsuit could have only been a factor in that scenario if the killer selected a patsy based on it. And logically it would have made him a poor one, as public support and any sign of impropriety would have made pursuing him as a suspect a risky move.

No it wouldn't he was suing the county for 36 million dollars he probably would have bankrupted the county and his family were outcasts in town before, during, and after the trial.


The entire defense was that it was in retaliation, to stop the pay out and to save the officers in question. That requires the timing to be very, very specific. Unless Avery happened to be meeting people who ended up being murdered as like a weekly occurrence, that defense just makes no sense at all.

Man do you know anything about this case? The defense had no choice they were barred from pointing the finger at any other suspect people on top of that the police literally never investigated anyone else even other family members.
 

Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
8,460
Sure, make the part 2. He's definitely still guilty though.

I've clearly soured on this in hindsight, especially learning that the documentarians willfully left out smoking gun evidence from their doc.

I didn't watch the first one and have no interest in the second. Exploitive bullshit all the way. Hate this genre of tv and while the case is still going on???

Fuck this.
 

Deleted member 2625

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
I'm having a hard time following this second season because of the pants-shitting theme.

"Who drew the dicks" was funny as hell but somehow "who poisoned the student body to shit themselves" isn't nearly as ... if I can use a weird term, endearing. I almost turned it off after the hellscene of watching students shit into urinals in the first sequence. it's just not that funny to me, more like super gross. that said I thought the "season 1 was on vimeo but you watch the Netlfix version, thats why we have great production value" excuse was pretty funny. tough it out?
 

Erigu

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,934
Well even that. To my knowledge I've never met anyone that's been murdered. Let alone on a day I met them.
Well, me neither, as far as I know, but that's anecdotal.
(Although a ridiculous and somewhat sinister anecdote came to mind while I was typing this... I'd rather not post details as that one hit a bit too close to home, but suffice to say: sometimes, crazy random shit happens.)

Let alone with me being the last person to see them. Let alone it being after I'd been wrongly imprisoned and are suing the police for it
Again, yes, that's another matter indeed... Although he might not actually be the last person to see her.

The entire defense was that it was in retaliation, to stop the pay out and to save the officers in question. That requires the timing to be very, very specific. Unless Avery happened to be meeting people who ended up being murdered as like a weekly occurrence, that defense just makes no sense at all.
Well, again, coincidences do happen. I imagine there are lots of cases that couldn't be solved if you simply ruled those out.
And yes, like Jmanunknown said above, the defense was a bit short on options...
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,911
The police wouldn't even consider any other suspect right from the start.

The defense were prevented from even suggesting other suspects.

Nothing shady there.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
I'm having a hard time following this second season because of the pants-shitting theme.

"Who drew the dicks" was funny as hell but somehow "who poisoned the student body to shit themselves" isn't nearly as ... if I can use a weird term, endearing. I almost turned it off after the hellscene of watching students shit into urinals in the first sequence. it's just not that funny to me, more like super gross. that said I thought the "season 1 was on vimeo but you watch the Netlfix version, thats why we have great production value" excuse was pretty funny. tough it out?

You're talking about American Vandal, this thread is about Making a Murderer, unless i'm missing some ironic meta commentary thing you're doing.

And yes, keep watching American Vandal season 2, it's fantastic.
 

Clockwork

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
864
Wisconsin
I'm having a hard time following this second season because of the pants-shitting theme.

"Who drew the dicks" was funny as hell but somehow "who poisoned the student body to shit themselves" isn't nearly as ... if I can use a weird term, endearing. I almost turned it off after the hellscene of watching students shit into urinals in the first sequence. it's just not that funny to me, more like super gross. that said I thought the "season 1 was on vimeo but you watch the Netlfix version, thats why we have great production value" excuse was pretty funny. tough it out?

Uh, this is a joke...right?
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,844
I'm having a hard time following this second season because of the pants-shitting theme.

"Who drew the dicks" was funny as hell but somehow "who poisoned the student body to shit themselves" isn't nearly as ... if I can use a weird term, endearing. I almost turned it off after the hellscene of watching students shit into urinals in the first sequence. it's just not that funny to me, more like super gross. that said I thought the "season 1 was on vimeo but you watch the Netlfix version, thats why we have great production value" excuse was pretty funny. tough it out?
Damn I need to rewatch Season 1
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Man do you know anything about this case? The defense had no choice they were barred from pointing the finger at any other suspect people on top of that the police literally never investigated anyone else even other family members.
What difference does it make why they made the case they did? That's the case they made, and it requires such an obscenely unlikely set of events to transpire that it's ludicrous.

And Erigu is right, coincidences do happen, even if it was a trillion to one, it could have happened by sheer bad luck, but even if it did, that's not the story they argued.

The circumstances are highly suspect, but ultimately the defense rested entirely on it being a frame job, and the FBI said the blood wasn't from the vial. They can call into question their results, and the FBI's history isn't flawless, but at a certain point, it feels like people suggesting such a colossal cover up that it's much harder to believe than that she was murdered by Avery or someone close to him.

The defense said multiple times it could have been pulled off by two, or even one guy, that's clearly not the case if the FBI had to be in on it too.
 

Eddie

Banned
Jun 3, 2018
1,367
The findings in the first episode have already sucked me back in, gah damnit lol.
 

Minilla

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,514
Tokyo
Released all at once ? Or weekly ?

Does Netflix do the all at once anymore ? This is a show I want to binge watch ....