She wears a skirt and v-neck later on. She drops the boy-detective persona too, and openly flirts with the MC/Kaji. You're misreading it.
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[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)
- Thread starter HylianSeven
- Start date
That sounds a lot like "we didn't want to follow through." The scarequotes around Naoto don't make sense with that being the case.
Also, it is indeed true that no matter the intention of the developer, the result is the issue. Like Chihiro in Danganronpa. Not only is Chihiro validly interpreted by many as a trans girl, the scenes were also transphobic, regardless of developer intent.
I in no way mean to downplay the bad tropes that Hashino has used in his games, he is clearly not an ally to the lgbtq common. However do we know this was his work? He's listed as producer instead of director on wikipedia (although as producer he could have obviously told them this was an awful idea)
Oh, I would absolutely agree that trying to portray a gender bias in the workplace with "my coworkers treat female coworkers badly so I'll mistakenly want to be a male detective so bad that my friends will have to stop me from undergoing surgery" doesn't have good optics at all, but I still think the intention there was workplace bias and not attacking the dignity of trans identities. I think why they portrayed the issue this was was simply to have a "oh this male character is actually a girl!" twist.
A trend of similarly offensive portrayals of LGBT identities throughout his work (a trans boogeyman in P3, a very blatantly homophobic main character in P4, two gay boogeymen that appear twice in P5 (edit: also Erica's horrendous treatment in OG Catherine)), and knowledge of his high position in Atlus.
Again, the point of the arc was about not feeling like she could be accepted as a detective unless she was a man, everything in her arc is focused on this
I dont get the idea of "well they actually meant to do this", in the end it isnt what they did
It's used that way because it's during the lead-up to the first reveal that she wasn't a boy.
Death of the author, etc. etc. etc. What they intended isn't terribly relevant to what is so.
But that doesn't make sense. If it's an androgynous name as the author suggests, it doesn't make sense to emphasize that Naoto was born with an androgynous name - or for his Shadow to say that it's a manly name. All we can see is that the designer is known to say things that contradict other things they've said or wrote.
I only played P4 Golden (not P4 on PS2) and I always interpreted Naoto as a woman who dresses like a man and not as a trans man. I'm no Japanese speaker so I just assumed Naoto was a gender neutral name just as, say, Charlie is in English.
...
It's gonna take some doing at this point if anyone ever attempts to convince me to play Persona 5. Game looks great but I don't think think I can ever bring myself to give money to this company after this one.
I guess I could just buy it used.
It's gonna take some doing at this point if anyone ever attempts to convince me to play Persona 5. Game looks great but I don't think think I can ever bring myself to give money to this company after this one.
I guess I could just buy it used.
We had this discussion earlier in the thread, please read the threadmarks and go back a few pages.
Full Body is the original concept for Catherine which he directed but couldn't fit in at the time due to "society being in a different place". Furthermore, considering he was paraded around in PR interviews for the game, he was 100% aware of the changes. Considering he's also producer of the game., he would have retained some sort of creative control over the project which really shows. Really, it's this and a combination of other things he's done in the past that has really revealed him for the piece of shit he is. This is entirely on him and his backwards views.
The emphasis on the androgyny of the name as a means to highlight the facade that Naoto has been presenting to everyone around her so she could be comfortable behind her false persona. Every other shadow in the game does this: pinpointing an aspect of the character they represent to demean them and berate them for living a lie.
It is gender neutral but in the same way that names like Brittany and Ashley are in English. Naoto is more common among boys by a significant margin.
Are the quotes around "Naoto" present in the Japanese? That strikes me as the sort of thing that could just be a localization problem
And what is there does not support the idea that Naoto identifies as a man. There is literally a quote of her in the slink that says she identifies as a woman, all of this supported through the idea that she wanted to be accepted, but felt people judged her for being a woman
I think its there for emphasis, its not like before then her name was in quotes the whole time
Androgyny wasn't emphasized, masculinity was.
Self-hatred among trans people is fairly common. Closeting oneself is fairly common. It is more realistic and logical that a trans man would go into the closet after a bad coming-out than this scenario.
OP
OP
I seriously doubt he gets a whole synopsis for every ending before even signing up.
The two worst offender scenes can be fast-forwarded, but they're obviously still there, and while there's one minor possibly LGBT character in
the game (Lala), there's no other inclusion of LGBT people in the game.
Ultimately comes down to your own tolerance for this shit. If you can compartmentalise things about the game, it's possible to ignore the presence of those homophobic scenes.
A DQ character means DQ music, DQ music means money going to Sugiyama which then goes to the horrible things he funds.
Sure, but that just arrives to the same point for why her name is quoted in that passage.
My point is that the game says Naoto was meant to be a masculine name for the character, and later on the designer says androgynous.
Yeah. I was somewhat wondering where this might put some of the VA's if this keeps blowing up.
So he was blind to the treatment of the trans character in the first game? Or he forgot? This isn't exactly new for Atlus. At some point, you should be aware of who is signing your checks.
That may be true but still Naoto is the birth name from what I can gather, not chosen by the person after transitioning.
What a complicated topic.
Sounds to me like they decided this character would be called Naoto because they could use the androgyny of the name as part of the twist.
I mean I dont doubt that this is a important issue and people have taken to this because of that, but I think you are kind of interpreting it with little regard to the whole context of the situation. At best your answer is "they wanted to go this way, got scared then made all new scenes around that core bit". The simplest answer though is the one supported by the text, everything lines up in the workplace sexism thought (motivations, extra notes in books, her saying she identifies that way) which would lead me to believe that was the intention. I dont think there is a single place in the game where Naoto wants to be a man because that is how she identifies or has a desire to be a man that isnt because she wants to be accepted as a detective
But the name isn't androgynous according to the game, the only thing that suggests it was was a post-release interview, which very well could be the designer adjusting details to fit ideas not present in the original work.
I have zero sympathy for Atlus USA regarding Catherine Full Body considering they have been continuously making the decision to leave in every instance of transphobia and homophobia in P-Studio games for the last twelve (TWELVE!) years.
While some instances would be tricky to remove, there are just as many that could have been fixed simply by rewriting a line or two.
The only difference here is that Full Body takes it to a level that even the most cynical of us couldn't have anticipated.
While some instances would be tricky to remove, there are just as many that could have been fixed simply by rewriting a line or two.
The only difference here is that Full Body takes it to a level that even the most cynical of us couldn't have anticipated.
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YOOOO Are you guys going to continue arguing about Naoto to distract from the subject of the thread? If so, you should consider that what they "intended" for Naoto is utterly irrelevant, considering they used trans-related imagery and a generally transphobic framing for her story.
So Naoto can both Not Be Trans *and* her story be transphobic, these are not mutually exclusive, and to continue arguing about this for pages just distracts from the actual goddamn point of this thread, and you should probably cut it out.
So Naoto can both Not Be Trans *and* her story be transphobic, these are not mutually exclusive, and to continue arguing about this for pages just distracts from the actual goddamn point of this thread, and you should probably cut it out.
You're welcomed to boycott everything DQ. I won't punish hundreds in the development team or thousands in an entire company because of one man. DQ is an iconic franchise that started in the 80s, back then Sugiyama's views weren't public knowledge yet and we're stuck with him owning all the music. It is what it is. Also Sylvando in DQ11 is awesome so whatever. Fuck Sugiyama but I still love DQ.
That's a good post that my girlfriend was just talking about being what this thread really needed. Authorial intent isn't the only thing that determines whether something is transphobic.
Just as someone shouldn't shame a person for not boycotting DQ, someone shouldn't shame a person for doing so. Is it punishing developers when I decide I'm not interested in DQ games anymore for mechanical reasons? The only difference between a boycott of DQ and "just not buying it" is intent, but in the end, the result of the actions are identical, just one of them is intended to create change.
User Banned (1 Month): Excusing transphobia, history of disingenuous rhetoric, previous infractions
I'm pretty sure ignoring all evidence from a culture, and forcing your own cultural interpretation is a form of imperialism and (negative) appropriation.
I honestly just wanted to know if there was anything stating Naoto wasn't their birth name tbh, as I've never heard that before
Actually relitigating the is-Naoto-trans debate is just a pointless war that makes no one happy and changes no minds
Actually relitigating the is-Naoto-trans debate is just a pointless war that makes no one happy and changes no minds
I enjoyed my Joker but...
It fucking sucked that not only are you limited to these options for this choice (which I'd largely blanked out), but you're forced to agree with Ryuji's fucking inane horny schemes whenever they happen. Joker can be whoever you want... unless you don't want your brain to disappear whenever the chance to oogle girls appears, because that's what's going to happen canonically.
Also on another note, most people who like to say things about JP culture involving LGBTQ issues do not actually know anything about LGBTQ culture in Japan.
If this applies to you, please stop.
If this applies to you, please stop.
Maybe, but it also clashes with her age. Adult police don't take women seriously, but they do respect the opinions of kids?
Persona 5 will continue to be one of my favorite RPG's and unless any sequel and spinoffs have something this bad I'll continue to buy them. So no. Still getting Joker.
Who's likely to get money because you bought the game or something tied to it, though? Some random programmer? Or Sugiyama? Cause I'm guessing not the former, and very likely the latter.
(And to be clear: I say this as someone who accepted this while buying DQ 11 and just donated more money to people around that time to "make up for it", selfishly.)
The very idea that a high schooler is a detective is kind of out there in the first place, so I've got no retort to that except that the story expected us to, by way of suspension of disbelief.
All I read from this post was
"I don't know how much you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert)"
DQ as a actual series is inclusive, its literally the personal thoughts of a sick head composer who didnt write or create the game other then the music.
She's mocked for her age too though? Half the point of her dungeon is seeking validation that's she not a child, hence Shadow Naoto acting like a little kid half the time, the berserk form looking like a toy, and the shadow base looking like it came from a kids show. It's nade clear that her issues are a one two punch of wanting to be treated seriously despite her age and people looking down at her for being a woman.
They asked, I answered, is there a problem?
"I dont know how much you know about Japanese culture but transphobia is a part of it"
These goons don't realize they are the first ones to insult japanese culture with their bullshit.
Time to start boycotting Dragon Ball series as well. Support DB = support Toriyama, who is also an accomplice in the development of the same series Sugiyama is involved, long time series partner and fan.
Everyone who worked on it gets money. They get to keep their jobs because the game they worked on performed well, they'll get bonuses and probably get to work on the next one. Of course Sugiyama being a top guy gets more but what are we going to do about it? Not boycotting the Smash character oass, that's for sure.
But the question was whether anyone else felt conflicted over Joker