[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)

[Deleted member 25606]

Have read the whole thread and don't think I have anything to add other than I don't really agree with the contingent that wanted to ban discussion and now want to make hall of shame threads since they didn't get their way.

On a personal note I am pissed, Catherine being the one Atlus game I have any interest in and was hoping they would fix the Erica stuff but nope, double down and will not be getting a purchase from me. I don't care intention or who at Atlus is responsible, they can get fucked.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Not him but to my knowledge Rin is a male-identifying crossdresser. He probably meant "gay panic" but either way Vincent's reaction would be the same. His freak out is because he found a penis when he was expecting a vagina.


I'd assume that's the case. I don't know for sure but I'm assuming that everyone working on the story is straight and doesn't actually know any differences between straight and gay attraction. In fact I think that goes for most CIS people in general.

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Like the whole thing is predicated on "you look exactly like a woman, but you have a penis, so I guess I'm into dudes now even though my attraction is entirely based on you looking exactly like a pretty woman with no masculine based attraction." I doubt they can even write a good gay sex scene lol.

 

[takoyaki]

My copy of the LE arrived today (Ordered a while ago. I was a big fan of the original game but the stuff from the OP is very disappointing to hear. Like others, I had hoped that Atlus would use this version as a second chance to do right by the character instead of potentially making things worse)

Not sure if this has been posted yet or if it is helpful in any way for figuring out the point in time of the end in question, but here's the two pages from the art book that show Erica:

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under her picture on the left it reads "Eric", under the one on the right "Eric (school days)"

 

[Deleted member 1635]

The comments in that article are... yikes.

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That's the Japanese Internet that I know, which was why I was so interested in seeing some LGBT perspectives rather than just the usual commentary.

 

[BrandoBoySP]

I remember being weirded out by Erica being the butt of the joke when it came to her relationship with Toby, but the group gently ribbing her and such seemed like she was simply accepted by them. I'm not trans, though, and I've seen some trans people say the group didn't treat her well at all, so...

I do legit have a question, though.

Spoiler: Erica and the nightmares

I remember the game mentioning her having the nightmares, but I also recall her stopping having them at one point--I want to say she only had them for a few days, and then she herself mentions she just got spooked by the stories and the dreams stopped (she implied that they weren't the same nightmares the guys were getting). I don't remember seeing her in the nightmares, either, but I haven't played the original game since launch. Was there a point that they specifically mentioned Erica getting the nightmares was actually because of her being trans, whether in-game or in ancillary material?

It's really sad to see they've doubled down on the transphobia. Atlus USA handled it as best they could--they apologized on the original forums for the deadnaming once someone told them it was a Bad Thing to do, with staff saying they didn't know and they felt bad they could have at least fixed issues like that--but the source material just keeps pulling stuff.

 

[Deleted member 32561]

Like I'm into effeminate dudes too but people using that as a way to tell a gay relationship story feels like they don't actually know what goes into gay attraction or even gay relationships.

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As a pansexual, I'm in the same boat. I love effeminate men in for who they are, not in spite of it. Yet that seems to be what several bi relationships end up written as: That the gender is an obstacle or imperfection, rather than a legitimate part of the identity of the person you love. This is true in Japan and in Western media. And it's true with Rin's depiction as a crossdressing, effeminate cis man (albeit an alien, but still). That the MC loves him in spite of being a guy, not just... Loving him. It's... Just not accurate.

Like obviously there are great examples of LGBT rep in Japanese media... But also a lot of questionable ones, either handled by someone without experience with LGBT people or someone who legit thinks LGBT people are the butt of a joke. And the existence of the good rep means we shouldn't excuse the latter when it pops up as "just Japanese culture", ESPECIALLY when Japanese LGBT people are criticizing it too. Again, one of the biggest franchises in Japan handles LGBT stuff pretty decently by just allowing LGBT characters to even exist without making them the butt of a joke or a bury your gays trope. There's really no excuse for Atlus or Hashino. Hire a consultant or something.

 

[Platy]

under her picture on the left it reads "Eric", under the one on the right "Eric (school days)"

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So they literally deadname her 3 times in her own artbook page while keeping the shit "EricA (Eric Anderson)" spelling that implies that Erica is not even her "real" name TWICE in the same 3 words ?

 

[Deleted member 20850]

So they literally deadname her 3 times in her own artbook page while keeping the shit "EricA (Eric Anderson)" spelling that implies that Erica is not even her "real" name TWICE in the same 3 words ?

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They are so bad at this that it's plausible Rin just identifies as a man because the thought of a woman with a penis would make their heads explode.

 

[Take5GiantSteps]

I canceled my pre-order....going to GameFly this one.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

the thought of a woman with a penis would make their heads explode.

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That seems rather unfair given the scene and character that is the root of this controversy.

 

[Tragedienne]

I do legit have a question, though.

Spoiler: Erica and the nightmares

I remember the game mentioning her having the nightmares, but I also recall her stopping having them at one point--I want to say she only had them for a few days, and then she herself mentions she just got spooked by the stories and the dreams stopped (she implied that they weren't the same nightmares the guys were getting). I don't remember seeing her in the nightmares, either, but I haven't played the original game since launch. Was there a point that they specifically mentioned Erica getting the nightmares was actually because of her being trans, whether in-game or in ancillary material?

It's really sad to see they've doubled down on the transphobia. Atlus USA handled it as best they could--they apologized on the original forums for the deadnaming once someone told them it was a Bad Thing to do, with staff saying they didn't know and they felt bad they could have at least fixed issues like that--but the source material just keeps pulling stuff.

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Spoiler

The nightmares were due to what was essentially a fertility god thinning the herd to make it so more were reproducing. If you were either in a relationship with no intention of having offspring, or stringing your partner/another along, preventing them from reproducing, you were a target. Erica only began having the nightmares when she started dating Toby, since she can't get pregnant, and thus was preventing him from being with someone who could. Theoretically, an infertile woman would also have the nightmares too if she were with a man who wasn't, but of course Atlus doesn't actually show this in game because that would make too much sense.

It was pretty mishandled, and they could have explained it in a more direct way, since they left it so vague in game that it comes off as her having the nightmares due to being assigned male at birth, rather than just because she is keeping Toby from being with someone he can have children with.

 

[Komii]

So they literally deadname her 3 times in her own artbook page while keeping the shit "EricA (Eric Anderson)" spelling that implies that Erica is not even her "real" name TWICE in the same 3 words ?

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It's only written "eric" under the images she's not transitioned, while there's no "Erica" near the images where she is, idk if that's worth noting, the upper case A in EricA is very concerning nevertheless, the names in red read the same, so there's no instance the pages say only "Erica"

 

[Platy]

It's only written "eric" under the images she's not transitioned, while there's no "Erica" near the images where she is, idk if that's worth noting, the upper case A in EricA is very concerning nevertheless, the names in red read the same, so there's no instance the pages say only "Erica"

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And don't forget not being a single "Erica Anderson" anywhere.

She only has a last name while being deadnamed, contributing to the idea that the deadname is the "real" name

 

[MinusTydus]

Ehhhhh...

 

[AztecComplex]

Ehhhhh...

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He already recorded his lines and is probably obligated to make some publicity. Did yo honestly expect for him to talk trash about the still unreleased game he's in?

 

[MinusTydus]

He already recorded his lines and is probably obligated to make some publicity. Did yo honestly expect for him to talk trash about the still unreleased game he's in?

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"I support trans people" wouldn't have hurt him.

He could address the elephant in the room without going full-on "FUCK ATLUS."

 

[Komii]

And don't forget not being a single "Erica Anderson" anywhere.

She only has a last name while being deadnamed, contributing to the idea that the deadname is the "real" name

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Honestly, even a single Erica would have been better than ALWAYS HAVING ERICA COUPLED WITH ERIC

Sorta means her social name can't even be a nickname, yeesh, there's no instance in this page where they let her true name be


Now that i came here, I gotta say, alien rin aside, my biggest concern with the Rin true ending is

Spoiler

that it implies that only through the powers of song and magic(and maybe hipnosys) you can bring forth a reality where Erica is accepted and so is Vincent's relationship with Rin :/

I wont even talk about how bad the other endings are, but im bummed about this one cause a few edits and changes to rin's identity could have made it much less harmful than the final message ended up being

 

[StarCreator]

At this point, Atlus USA should push for an "eSports" version of the game that is literally just the multiplayer modes with every bit of the game's story stripped out.

 

[Lord Vatek]

EDIT: Nevermind.

 

[Chuck]

Ehhhhh...

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Troy Baker: I'm an ally!...when it's convient

 

[Chuck]

Sorry of the double post but this post is so fucking awful I had to

Eh, I agree but that also might constitute a spoiler which he legally might not be allowed to talk about.

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Saying he supports trans people is a fucking spoiler? Legally not allowed to talk about it?? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Either way I won't get on voice actors' cases for not speaking out against it. Putting aside any changes they may or may not have made and the sheer lack of context voice actors are usually given, it's not Atlus USA's fault and from everything I can tell, burning bridges in the VA industry seems like career suicide.

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Troy Baker is the most known voice actor in the video game industry so if anyone is in a position to speak out, it's him.

I encourage anyone to reply to him on twitter and let him know what you think, because it appears he has a bunch of fans supporting him and no one mentioning the grossness of the game.

 

[Lord Vatek]

Saying he supports trans people is a fucking spoiler? Legally not allowed to talk about it?? You have no idea what you're talking about.

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EDIT: Nevermind, you're right. Bad post.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

That seems rather unfair given the scene and character that is the root of this controversy.

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Considering they seem to be unable to acknowledge she is a woman even in her own artbook page and throw deadnames around like crazy it's equally as plausible that her comment in the non transition ending is not there to support trans people who have not transitioned and instead mean it as a bad joke for cis people to laugh at.

But I just said it's a plausible scenario for me. If they really confirm Erica's identity in the new ending and have Rin consciously as a male crossdresser while knowing the distinction to a pre op trans woman than cool. I just personally don't trust them that far ar this point.

 

[Komii]

Considering they seem to be unable to acknowledge she is a woman even in her own artbook page and throw deadnames around like crazy it's equally as plausible that her comment in the non transition ending is not there to support trans people who have not transitioned and instead mean it as a bad joke for cis people to laugh at.

But I just said it's a plausible scenario for me. If they really confirm Erica's identity in the new ending and have Rin consciously as a male crossdresser while knowing the distinction to a pre op trans woman than cool. I just personally don't trust them that far ar this point.

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I think they do, but that ending also assume trans people will only be accepted in a world where magic music of acceptance is a thing, so it makes it look like that would be a fairytale scenario yknow :/

 

[BrandoBoySP]

Spoiler

The nightmares were due to what was essentially a fertility god thinning the herd to make it so more were reproducing. If you were either in a relationship with no intention of having offspring, or stringing your partner/another along, preventing them from reproducing, you were a target. Erica only began having the nightmares when she started dating Toby, since she can't get pregnant, and thus was preventing him from being with someone who could. Theoretically, an infertile woman would also have the nightmares too if she were with a man who wasn't, but of course Atlus doesn't actually show this in game because that would make too much sense.

It was pretty mishandled, and they could have explained it in a more direct way, since they left it so vague in game that it comes off as her having the nightmares due to being assigned male at birth, rather than just because she is keeping Toby from being with someone he can have children with.

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Spoiler

Yeah, I remember seeing people mentioning that that's why she got them--I just don't remember them mentioning it in the game if they did at all. I know some people would probably still see an issue with it targeting her since we only see men PLUS her (instead of, as you say, infertile women), but at least it would be better if it were more explicit.

It's been so long since I've played, but I do remember her saying her nightmares have stopped--does that bit come after she and Toby break up for a while? I'm not trying to excuse the transphobia at all, I'm just trying to remember what actually happens in the game versus what's player interpretation and creator commentary; I'm not sure if I'm just totally misremembering Erica's nightmares stopping. We don't actually see her in the nightmares, right?

 

[Eiserne Jungfrau]

Sounds like they pulled a Steins;Gate, but 100x worse, very disappointing if true. Erica was one of the few non-fantasy depictions of a trans person in gaming that wasn't completely terrible, so It'll be very disappointing if they did retcon her into a gay man, but I'll withhold judgment until I actually play it for myself, seeing as how the initial report has already been found to be partially inaccurate.

 

[Tragedienne]

Spoiler

Yeah, I remember seeing people mentioning that that's why she got them--I just don't remember them mentioning it in the game if they did at all. I know some people would probably still see an issue with it targeting her since we only see men PLUS her (instead of, as you say, infertile women), but at least it would be better if it were more explicit.

It's been so long since I've played, but I do remember her saying her nightmares have stopped--does that bit come after she and Toby break up for a while? I'm not trying to excuse the transphobia at all, I'm just trying to remember what actually happens in the game versus what's player interpretation and creator commentary; I'm not sure if I'm just totally misremembering Erica's nightmares stopping. We don't actually see her in the nightmares, right?

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Spoiler

They don't mention it in the game specifically in reference to her, it's implied. So kinda half-assed. The entire reasoning for the nightmares is only explained in the scene with the bartender near the end where he lays out why all of that is happening. So, they could have initially gone for something transphobic in that particular plot point, but it's so vague it could go either way.

Given how poor their track record has continued to be even since Catherine originally came out though.... I don't know if I can still give them the benefit of the doubt on that.

And you're right, she stops having them when her and Toby break up briefly, and unlike with the other characters, we never see her in the nightmare.

 

[BrandoBoySP]

Spoiler

They don't mention it in the game specifically in reference to her, it's implied. So kinda half-assed. The entire reasoning for the nightmares is only explained in the scene with the bartender near the end where he lays out why all of that is happening. So, they could have initially gone for something transphobic in that particular plot point, but it's so vague it could go either way.

Given how poor their track record has continued to be even since Catherine originally came out though.... I don't know if I can still give them the benefit of the doubt on that.

And you're right, she stops having them when her and Toby break up briefly, and unlike with the other characters, we never see her in the nightmare.

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Spoiler

OHHH, okay. I had never realized her ceasing the nightmares was after she and Toby break up--I'd just taken her shrugging it off on face value. Thanks!

Yeah, this entire thing just sucks. I don't expect most Japanese games to be particularly progressive with regards to LGBT stuff since it's still a hush-hush kind of thing over there, but this is particularly bad.

 

[OwOtacon]

Ehhhhh...

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Nolan North was always better

Troy "ally unless it gets in the way of a paycheck" Baker can fuck off

 

[Madison]

Can I get 100% confirmation that this is a new ending?

 

[deepFlaw]

Can I get 100% confirmation that this is a new ending?

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There is no debate that this ending exists and did not exist before, yes.

 

[grizzlybara]

Erin Fitzgerald posted this in her discord
https://twitter.com/grizzlybara/status/1098351561263247361?s=21

 

[Castform]

This is hopefully good news. But at the same time, it's probably not worth getting our hopes up yet.

 

[Lord Vatek]

Erin Fitzgerald posted this in her discord
https://twitter.com/grizzlybara/status/1098351561263247361?s=21

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I'm glad that the localization team is trying to clean it up but that's just putting a band-aid on the problem without actually solving it. They're not the ones who need to change how they do things.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

Erin Fitzgerald posted this in her discord
https://twitter.com/grizzlybara/status/1098351561263247361?s=21

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I'm still wary about supporting this game. I just don't think it is fair to expect the localization team clean after the writers screw up.

 

[Woylie]

Sounds like they pulled a Steins;Gate, but 100x worse, very disappointing if true. Erica was one of the few non-fantasy depictions of a trans person in gaming that wasn't completely terrible, so It'll be very disappointing if they did retcon her into a gay man, but I'll withhold judgment until I actually play it for myself, seeing as how the initial report has already been found to be partially inaccurate.

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Even in the original the characters still don't really seem to respect her, and the game treats her as a male. We really don't have to settle for this as representation, we should demand better.

 

[BY2K]

Erin Fitzgerald posted this in her discord
https://twitter.com/grizzlybara/status/1098351561263247361?s=21

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So the English version might be different.

Good.

 

[grizzlybara]

So the English version might be different.

Good.

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seems that way. at the very least they're aware of it and know it's bad. I'm interested to see how they approach it.

 

[Zubz]

seems that way. at the very least they're aware of it and know it's bad. I'm interested to see how they approach it.

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I am, too, but I am not optimistic it'll be enough.

 

[The Anonymous Wizard]

I didn't previously see this thread! Here is the contents of a topic I just made in error:



WARNING, SPOILERS THROUGHOUT.

The other day there was a controversy over one of the 13 endings for Catherine: Full Body. There was concern that one possible ending - a happy ending - shows the transgender woman, Erica, having chosen not to transition and instead remain 'Eric.'

Now that I have seen the ending, with a translation I believe this has been quite a large misunderstanding. In the ending in question, Catherine takes Vincent back in time/into a new timeline, so that they can meet in high school... Vincent wakes up in high school and finds his friends looking at him. Everyone is there, except Toby, who doesn't meet them until a few years later. Erika is there, but at this time she is pre-transition. Catherine is also there and her and Vincent enter into a relationship. The screen fades to black and the words 'Several Years Later' appear on screen. It's a wedding party for Catherine and Vincent. Toby is there too and so is 'Eric.' Toby, looking at Vincent and Catherine says "I'm so jealous, a girl who looks like an angel, I wonder if there are anymore girls like that?!" At that point Erica puts her arm around Toby and says "She may be closer than you think." This, to me, shows clearly that while Erica has not made the transition yet it's clearly on the cards.

In another ending, which I have not seen the transcript for yet it, which takes place in the future and Vincent has chosen to be with Rin, it appears that Erica and Toby are together in a relationship.

You can watch this ending here and decide for yourself:
https://youtu.be/kRTx_q8f--4?t=337

P.S If I used any wrong or offensive terms or said something disrespectful I apologise, it's not a topic I've engaged in much. Cheers!


EDIT

The OP says this:

Erica (pre-transition) puts her arm around him and says "She may be closer than you think", as a "joke" about her having transitioned and dating Tobey in the other timeline.

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You are reading this totally wrong, this is pre-transition Erica hinting to Toby that her transition is on the cards or already in the works... It's not a joke, there's nothing malicious in this at all. Besides, Toby doesn't know what happened in other timelines.

 

[deepFlaw]

I didn't previously see this thread! Here is the contents of a topic I just made in error:



WARNING, SPOILERS THROUGHOUT.

The other day there was a controversy over one of the 13 endings for Catherine: Full Body. There was concern that one possible ending - a happy ending - shows the transgender woman, Erica, having chosen not to transition and instead remain 'Eric.'

Now that I have seen the ending, with a translation I believe this has been quite a large misunderstanding. In the ending in question, Catherine takes Vincent back in time/into a new timeline, so that they can meet in high school... Vincent wakes up in high school and finds his friends looking at him. Everyone is there, except Toby, who doesn't meet them until a few years later. Erika is there, but at this time she is pre-transition. Catherine is also there and her and Vincent enter into a relationship. The screen fades to black and the words 'Several Years Later' appear on screen. It's a wedding party for Catherine and Vincent. Toby is there too and so is 'Eric.' Toby, looking at Vincent and Catherine says "I'm so jealous, a girl who looks like an angel, I wonder if there are anymore girls like that?!" At that point Erica puts her arm around Toby and says "She may be closer than you think." This, to me, shows clearly that while Erica has not made the transition yet it's clearly on the cards.

In another ending, which I have not seen the transcript for yet it, which takes place in the future and Vincent has chosen to be with Rin, it appears that Erica and Toby are together in a relationship.

You can watch this ending here and decide for yourself:
https://youtu.be/kRTx_q8f--4?t=337

P.S If I used any wrong or offensive terms or said something disrespectful I apologise, it's not a topic I've engaged in much. Cheers!

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I don't mean to dismiss the effort you put into this, but this is not news. We discussed the translated scene for quite a while; even with that line, the timeline means she'd have to have delayed transitioning for the scene to work and that provides its own issues.

I would encourage you to read (well, skim) the rest of the thread.

 

[The Anonymous Wizard]

I don't mean to dismiss the effort you put into this, but this is not news. We discussed the translated scene for quite a while; even with that line, the timeline means she'd have to have delayed transitioning for the scene to work and that provides its own issues.

I would encourage you to read (well, skim) the rest of the thread.

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Yeah, I'm looking through it now.

While I can understand the issue with the delayed transition, if that is the case, (as the game doesn't give an exact date.) I don't think there was an ounce of malice intended in this story line. In fact, I think Atlus' intentions were good...

Then again, we also know that in the other story arches Erica transitions while she disappears after a bad relationship break up... When she returns she is already transitioned and Toby is part of the group. It could well be that in this timeline she doesn't have that bad relationship (it appears that way) and she doesn't do a disappearing act for X amount of years. So this could still take place before her transition in ALL time lines, the difference is she doesn't disengage from her friends group before hand.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

Yeah, I'm looking through it now.

While I can understand the issue with the delayed transition, if that is the case, (as the game doesn't give an exact date.) I don't think there was an ounce of malice intended in this story line. In fact, I think Atlus' intentions were good...

Then again, we also know that in the other story arches Erica transitions while she disappears after a bad relationship break up... When she returns she is already transitioned and Toby is part of the group. It could well be that in this timeline she doesn't have that bad relationship (it appears that way) and she doesn't do a disappearing act for X amount of years. So this could still take place before her transition in ALL time lines, the difference is she doesn't disengage from her friends group before hand.

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Transitioning takes years. The presence of Toby there makes it impossible this scene plays in a timeframe that would allow Erica to transition in time for the main game.

EDIT and the thought it requires a traumatic event to start the transition is problematic itself.

 

[Lord Vatek]

Yeah, I'm looking through it now.

While I can understand the issue with the delayed transition, if that is the case, (as the game doesn't give an exact date.) I don't think there was an ounce of malice intended in this story line. In fact, I think Atlus' intentions were good...

Then again, we also know that in the other story arches Erica transitions while she disappears after a bad relationship break up... When she returns she is already transitioned and Toby is part of the group. It could well be that in this timeline she doesn't have that bad relationship (it appears that way) and she doesn't do a disappearing act for X amount of years. So this could still take place before her transition in ALL time lines, the difference is she doesn't disengage from her friends group before hand.

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I have no idea how people can assume that Atlus had good intentions regarding this given their track record.

 

[The Anonymous Wizard]

I have no idea how people can assume that Atlus had good intentions regarding this given their track record.

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Because they are a company not a single person, times change and mentalities change... Did you know Hugo Boss designed the Nazi SS uniform? Yet nobody is going around calling them Nazi sympathisers now.

 

[Zero-ELEC]

The screen fades to black and the words 'Several Years Later' appear on screen. It's a wedding party for Catherine and Vincent. Toby is there too and so is 'Eric.' Toby, looking at Vincent and Catherine says "I'm so jealous, a girl who looks like an angel, I wonder if there are anymore girls like that?!" At that point Erica puts her arm around Toby and says "She may be closer than you think." This, to me, shows clearly that while Erica has not made the transition yet it's clearly on the cards.

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except in every other timeline Erica has transitioned by the point she even meets Toby and every other ending has the weddings take place relatively the same time, there's no implication this happens before all the other weddings in all the other endings

 

[The Anonymous Wizard]

except in every other timeline Erica has transitioned by the point she even meets Toby and every other ending has the weddings take place relatively the same time, there's no implication this happens before all the other weddings in all the other endings

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Lets assume that's the case, It's not the 'true' ending or the 'right' ending or the 'happy' ending, it's just one ending. We don't know why Erica has not transitioned yet in this timeline, but we DO know she is planning to transition, by what she says to Toby... I don't see how this is 'trans-phobic' it's just different, without an explanation. The first version of the game certainly has it's issues, like when Erica is told she couldn't follow her dream to be a female wrestler... While in this game that line is removed and in at least one ending she mentions shes a female wrestler ... I find it hard to believe there is any intended trans-phobia or malice here.

 

[Lord Vatek]

Because they are a company not a single person, times change and mentalities change... Did you know Hugo Boss designed the Nazi SS uniform? Yet nobody is going around calling them Nazi sympathisers now.

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Because they have shown absolutely nothing that they've gotten better. That shit in Persona 5 was completely unacceptable and that was less than three years ago, not to mention their complete refusal to stop deadnaming Erica.

 

[metalslimer]

I have no idea why anyone would give them the benefit of the doubt still

 

[deepFlaw]

Frankly I'm just annoyed they got punished for that inane comparison, and not for trying to waste people's time by retreading the same exact things we discussed over the past 30 pages. Including the wrestler thing, which seemingly might have only been changed not just to line up with that ending but because there is already at least one trans woman wrestling in Japan now.