MafiEra Season 13 Review Thread |OT|

Dr. Monkey · May 6, 2019

Ketkat said:
Could you describe this advocate role a little more? How would it differ from what staff already do for the community?

Dunno, I'm just kinda kicking the idea around. But gamerunners have their own stresses to deal with; there's a lot to keep up with. And players have the pressure of being in the game. If there was someone who was in modchat who could also mediate, then they could help assess. Right now, there are people in mod chat who support the gamerunner, but for the most part, they don't talk to the players. And I'm wondering if modding is stressful or maybe we're just all jaded so it gets harder to see things from a player perspective.

I'm reluctant to ask more people to take on labor and who knows, maybe it's not even a viable idea, but it occurred to me, reading some of these posts.

Verelios · May 6, 2019

That sounds like a volunteer counselor.

Dr. Monkey · May 6, 2019

Verelios said:
That sounds like a volunteer counselor.

ooh, yikes, I don't mean it like that. that's a LOT of labor. More like... a go-between. Example:

Player X feels attitudes in the game are spiraling. Gamerunner Y thinks it's going okay. Player X messages Gamerunner and gives their piece but Gamerunner is like meh, things are fine, because their threshold is much higher. X can message Advocate and talk it out with them and advocate can make a case, or not, as needed in modchat. Reason being Advocate only has the situation to focus on, while both Player and Gamerunner are spread kinda thin.

I dunno, maybe it's silly. As I type it out, I wonder, what's the point? We already have lines of communication. But there does seem to be a disconnect in places and I'd like to figure out how to solve it.

Verelios · May 6, 2019

Okay, I can see where you're coming from. It's a bit convoluted to have someone relaying from A to B then back, though I'm not sure what the best solution here would be to make everyone feel welcome. It's tricky to give one group just arbitration and expect the best, especially when tensions can run high between both groups and decisions aren't made in a vacuum. It feels super stressful just thinking about it.

Stuart444 · May 7, 2019

Natiko said:
I'm sorry, but "doofus" is not something a huge majority of people would be in any way bothered by.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here.

Namecalling - in general no matter how small - is something I would get uncomfortable with and get upset over. I'm sure many others would as well.

It is NOT okay, no matter how small or big it is. Ignoring it because "It's not something people would be bothered by I'm sure" is the wrong way to think about it.

Geno · May 7, 2019

Damn reading all this aggression discussion and knowing my playstyle, I'm sorry if I ever offended anyone.

*Splinter · May 7, 2019

I was trying to stay out of this but think I should weigh in on the aggression stuff.

I've pretty frequently crossed the line of what I would consider acceptable play, to the point where there are a few people I've had to apologise to post-game. This goes back years, to my very first game in fact. It's one of the reasons I've stopped playing.

I've never had a warning from the game runners though, I don't think I've had anything mentioned to me at all. So I completely agree with Rover that this stuff has been allowed to slide far more than it should.

I get it, having to tell adults to behave fucking sucks, and shouldn't be necessary. But I feel this problem has been getting worse in recent seasons - to the point that it now spills into the OT and review threads - and that isn't really surprising. If we continue to tolerate it, it simply becomes part of the culture of the community.

Natiko said:
I'm sorry, but "doofus" is not something a huge majority of people would be in any way bothered by.

Pronoun usage is also something that doesn't matter to the majority, but if I argued against that I'd be (rightly) exiled. Proper nickname usage doesn't matter to an even wider majority, almost everyone, but we have systems in place to protect those as well, as we should.

I doubt there are many situations where you would see someone being upset by an aggressor and say the onus is on them to not be upset, so I don't know why you're doing it here.

If Rover says he was hurt by Sorian's comments then either he's lying to get Sorian killed or he was hurt and should be taken seriously. It's as simple as that.

Pedro · May 7, 2019

Stuart444 said:
It is NOT okay, no matter how small or big it is. Ignoring it because "It's not something people would be bothered by I'm sure" is the wrong way to think about it.

It wasn't ignored, though; in the same post quoted, Natiko says he listened to Rover, issued Sorian a warning and further insults stopped happening. At no point Natiko didn't take this seriously, he just didn't think modkill was a necessary action.

Stuart444 · May 7, 2019

Pedro said:
It wasn't ignored, though; in the same post quoted, Natiko says he listened to Rover, issued Sorian a warning and further insults stopped happening. At no point Natiko didn't take this seriously, he just didn't think modkill was a necessary action.

I'm not just talking about that specific incident.

I mean the insinuation that "most people wouldn't get offended by it" is a flat out wrong one.

Name calling is wrong no matter how big or small an offence it is.

Sorian · May 7, 2019

Stuart444 said:
I'm not just talking about that specific incident.

I mean the insinuation that "most people wouldn't get offended by it" is a flat out wrong one.

Name calling is wrong no matter how big or small an offence it is.

Yet the insinuation that not all forms of aggression or names are equal still holds true. In the game that is literally centered around gaslighting people, tempers are going to flare and it's the moderators job to make that judgement call. There's something to be said about how someone took a comment personally but then there's also something to be said about how the third party observer sees it as well.

And for better or worse, that specific incident is what was being talked about here, divorcing away to talk about a general concept kind of misses the point. In a bubble, I'll also tell you name calling is bad. Clearly, I didn't feel the same way in this particular situation.

Stuart444 · May 7, 2019

Sorian said:
And for better or worse, that specific incident is what was being talked about here, divorcing away to talk about a general concept kind of misses the point. In a bubble, I'll also tell you name calling is bad. Clearly, I didn't feel the same way in this particular situation.

I wasn't involved nor did I see the incident.

but I'm perfectly happy to call out something like that.

"I'm sorry, but "doofus" is not something a huge majority of people would be in any way bothered by."

This makes it sound like it's okay because "not many people would be bothered by it"

which is wrong by all accounts.

That's all I'm saying on this because I don't see anything more productive coming from this conversation

Stuart444 · May 7, 2019

Oh, I will actually say one more thing.

There should be a standard on warnings.

Sometimes people get warned privately, sometimes (which has happened to be multiple times), warnings happen publicly in the threads.

No wonder some people think others are getting warned when it may or may not happen privately or publicly.

that's all. I'm out.

Brazil · May 7, 2019

Stuart444 said:
Oh, I will actually say one more thing.

There should be a standard on warnings.

Sometimes people get warned privately, sometimes (which has happened to be multiple times), warnings happen publicly in the threads.

No wonder some people think others are getting warned when it may or may not happen privately or publicly.

that's all. I'm out.

This is a good idea. Making it more official with a standard phrasing might give it more weight than an ad-libbed comment by the gamerunner.

Natiko · May 7, 2019

Stuart444 said:
I'm sorry but I have to disagree here.

Namecalling - in general no matter how small - is something I would get uncomfortable with and get upset over. I'm sure many others would as well.

It is NOT okay, no matter how small or big it is. Ignoring it because "It's not something people would be bothered by I'm sure" is the wrong way to think about it.

Not all things are equal. I did not ignore his complaint, even though I personally would not have been offended by it. Logic has to be applied to these situations. Calling someone a goober vs calling someone a flaming pile of dogshit are not equal infractions. Had Sorian persisted with even lighter insults he would have been modkilled and I made that clear to him, but I was never going to modkill someone over that second post Sorian made without giving an additional warning to make it clear even that wouldn't be tolerated.

*Splinter said:
I was trying to stay out of this but think I should weigh in on the aggression stuff.

I've pretty frequently crossed the line of what I would consider acceptable play, to the point where there are a few people I've had to apologise to post-game. This goes back years, to my very first game in fact. It's one of the reasons I've stopped playing.

I've never had a warning from the game runners though, I don't think I've had anything mentioned to me at all. So I completely agree with Rover that this stuff has been allowed to slide far more than it should.

I get it, having to tell adults to behave fucking sucks, and shouldn't be necessary. But I feel this problem has been getting worse in recent seasons - to the point that it now spills into the OT and review threads - and that isn't really surprising. If we continue to tolerate it, it simply becomes part of the culture of the community.

Pronoun usage is also something that doesn't matter to the majority, but if I argued against that I'd be (rightly) exiled. Proper nickname usage doesn't matter to an even wider majority, almost everyone, but we have systems in place to protect those as well, as we should.

I doubt there are many situations where you would see someone being upset by an aggressor and say the onus is on them to not be upset, so I don't know why you're doing it here.

If Rover says he was hurt by Sorian's comments then either he's lying to get Sorian killed or he was hurt and should be taken seriously. It's as simple as that.

I did take him seriously, if I didn't I simply would have done nothing. The point re: doofus is that a majority of players would not think they would get modkilled for it, hence the additional warning and point made that it wouldn't be tolerated either. After that no other infractions occurred the entire game. Isn't that the goal of these systems?

Stuart444 said:
I'm not just talking about that specific incident.

I mean the insinuation that "most people wouldn't get offended by it" is a flat out wrong one.

Name calling is wrong no matter how big or small an offence it is.

You're right, hence the additional warning. I still think you have to consider the context and tone. That's the part that makes it subjective. You and I have both ran games that had far more aggression than this game did for instance.

Stuart444 said:
Oh, I will actually say one more thing.

There should be a standard on warnings.

Sometimes people get warned privately, sometimes (which has happened to be multiple times), warnings happen publicly in the threads.

No wonder some people think others are getting warned when it may or may not happen privately or publicly.

that's all. I'm out.

That would make sense, but some conversations still have to occur behind the scenes. They could certainly be accompanied by another in thread post though.

Fran · May 7, 2019

Can I bring another subject:

Is there any way that we can improve the schedule system? I'm not talking about how long it takes for a game to be approved but to have a little more diversity between them. We just had 3 games in a row that used the same gimmick (mafiera, mansion and simon) and 2 of them even had a D1 selecting a leader instead of a lynch.

I know that the schedule team are also players and would like to be surprised about the mechanics too but it's not fun having 3 games in a row with a very similar mechanic.

Also I think that the games couldbe advertised better. All of them were announced as unusual, but unusual can be whatever. Maybe a more detailed description with a rough idea about the mechanics at play can help decide the players to avoid a game too similar from a game they recently played.

Dr. Monkey · May 7, 2019

Fran said:
Can I bring another subject:

Is there any way that we can improve the schedule system? I'm not talking about how long it takes for a game to be approved but to have a little more diversity between them. We just had 3 games in a row that used the same gimmick (mafiera, mansion and simon) and 2 of them even had a D1 selecting a leader instead of a lynch.

I know that the schedule team are also players and would like to be surprised about the mechanics too but it's not fun having 3 games in a row with a very similar mechanic.

Also I think that the games couldbe advertised better. All of them were announced as unusual, but unusual can be whatever. Maybe a more detailed description with a rough idea about the mechanics at play can help decide the players to avoid a game too similar from a game they recently played.

Yeah, two people have already raised that last issue. As for the first... no, not really. Not unless scheduling team isn't going to play. Our preference is to try to mix normal and unusual, and mix games of various sizes, so we have things for everyone every season, but we had less choice this time around and we don't know anything beyond the labels. I agree a better labeling system would be a good idea, but so long as I'm doing scheduling, I really would like to not be spoiled on particular roles.

As I understand it, labeling has evolved since the beginning so we just need to keep finding ways to better delineate game types. All for hearing suggestions on how to do that more effectively.

Fran · May 7, 2019

Dr. Monkey said:
I really would like to not be spoiled on particular roles.

I'm not talking about roles, I'm talking about games which they core mechanic is not secret. If we have 3 games in a row that have cults, mixed aligment lovers or a recruit system I know that we can't do anything about that. In this case all 3 games had their particular rules explained before the game started so it's not a really big spoiler.

Dr. Monkey said:
As I understand it, labeling has evolved since the beginning so we just need to keep finding ways to better delineate game types. All for hearing suggestions on how to do that more effectively.

As I said before, have the gamerruner share the core mechanic of the game during sign-ups. For example: in mafiera, mansion and simon could say: "Players will vote for a new mechanic each day". It's not really a big spoiler (and it's not secret as it will be posted before the game starts) and it could help players decide if they are interested in playing a game besides of the flavour or who is running it.

Sorian · May 7, 2019

Yeah, I agree with the above, if the gamerunner is planning to have additional special rules posted at the start of their game anyway, those rules could be attached to the original call to sign up. That's how I handled Marvel, for example, so everyone knew what was up with in thread attacks before they signed up.

Faddy · May 7, 2019

I agree that the onus to describe games should be down to the game runner. Particularly when a game has non-standard mechanics they should be described as fully as possible in the sign up phase. Any information that is going in the opening post of the game should not be considered spoilers for the game.

For example in Simon Says there could have been a description that said. "Day 1 the players will vote for a player to be Simon in place of voting to remove someone from the game." That is basically what we were told as the game started and not a spoiler of the Simon mechanic while still telling people about one of the quirks of the game. And at the same time the scheduling team would have all these descriptions to decide if games are too similar.

I don't think that should get to the level of role similarities whether that is a cult or mixed alignment lovers. These things are balanced within each game and would require someone to look at every individual game and never play. But it would also signal to players that it is less likely for instance that the mafia team have a godfather in multiple games in a row.

Sorian · May 7, 2019

There's probably some weird line about what's known pre-game and what's known at day 1 start though. Pulling that out a bit more, would you want the sign up phase to tell you that an innocent child is going to be revealed at game start? That would be pretty similar to the Simon says example and I'd say no personally. Special rules though, like Monopoly had, those seem for sure are something good to have out there ahead of time.

Fran · May 7, 2019

Sorian said:
There's probably some weird line about what's known pre-game and what's known at day 1 start though. Pulling that out a bit more, would you want the sign up phase to tell you that an innocent child is going to be revealed at game start? That would be pretty similar to the Simon says example and I'd say no personally. Special rules though, like Monopoly had, those seem for sure are something good to have out there ahead of time.

But the innocent child is a role and that doesn't need to be spoiled. I'm talking about core mechanics in a game. Something that is well know before the game starts. I think anything that is posted in the third post in a thread (the special rules post) is Ok.

Dr. Monkey · May 7, 2019

We have asked that game descriptions be added to the review process so we can make sure they are vetted for reasons like this. I don't know if we'll see that this season, though. We can ask people to go talk to their reviewers, but original reviewers may not be available. But that's one thing that should help (I hope). I agree that we need more information about games up front.

Sorian · May 7, 2019

Fran said:
But the innocent child is a role and that doesn't need to be spoiled. I'm talking about core mechanics in a game. Something that is well know before the game starts. I think anything that is posted in the third post in a thread (the special rules post) is Ok.

Sure, I just pulled that as the more extreme example, I'd assume the vote for leader thing from Simon says was not in that special rules post and was a surprise drop at day 1 which is why I said that (and if I'm wrong, ignore this post lol). But yeah, more info is better. In regards to Monkey's post, that sounds like it'll be more formal going forward if the reviewers have that expectation ahead of time but in the short term, it would probably be good to get gamerunner to add additional info to the sign up if it makes sense to.

Faddy · May 7, 2019

Sorian said:
There's probably some weird line about what's known pre-game and what's known at day 1 start though. Pulling that out a bit more, would you want the sign up phase to tell you that an innocent child is going to be revealed at game start? That would be pretty similar to the Simon says example and I'd say no personally. Special rules though, like Monopoly had, those seem for sure are something good to have out there ahead of time.

I think that is an important point about pre-game and game start.

For monopoly I wanted the extra rules and the board to be the focus so people would understand that before the game started. Then when the game officially began I gave out more information about certain cards and tokens in the game.

And for Simon there would be no need to say that Simon is lynchproof for night 1 in the description.

I think the thing to consider is does the information effect the entire game or just a single person. Everyone was picking simon but only the player chosen as simon would be lynch proof. So innocent child would never be spoiled before a game starts.

Dr. Monkey · May 7, 2019

We're going to get a place for priority system discussion and strategy going on OM soon - just FYI that we're prepping.

spider · May 10, 2019

what r u murderers up to

hey

Brazil · May 10, 2019

spider said:
what r u murderers up to

hey

👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀

spider · May 10, 2019

that's a lot of weird looking eyes u got there

...

should maybe see an eye doc

or r u role claiming seer?

:thinking emoji:

Deleted member 19365 · May 10, 2019

spider said:
what r u murderers up to

hey

Awwwh <3 nice to see u spoder :)

spider · May 10, 2019

Gorlak said:
Awwwh <3 nice to see u spoder :)

hiiiiiii

my fav kay-gee-bee~

Lone_Prodigy · May 10, 2019

Verelios · May 10, 2019

spider said:
what r u murderers up to

hey

=D

spider · May 10, 2019

ok so one of u is making eyes, an ex-kgb at least is saying hi, some loner is making an O face, and ash ketchum is smiling at me

BUT NO ONE IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION

how hard is it to admit what are you up to

murderers

hey?

scumtells errywhere in this town, all im sayin'

cabot · May 10, 2019

Sorry, too busy murdering!

Stantastic · May 10, 2019

spider said:
ok so one of u is making eyes, an ex-kgb at least is saying hi, some loner is making an O face, and ash ketchum is smiling at me

BUT NO ONE IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION

how hard is it to admit what are you up to

murderers

hey?

scumtells errywhere in this town, all im sayin'

Mostly psycoligically preparing for future murders.

EzekelRAGE · May 10, 2019

*truffleshuffle*

nin · May 10, 2019

spider said:
ok so one of u is making eyes, an ex-kgb at least is saying hi, some loner is making an O face, and ash ketchum is smiling at me

BUT NO ONE IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION

how hard is it to admit what are you up to

murderers

hey?

scumtells errywhere in this town, all im sayin'

You still got dibs on Omar little my love :*

Fanto · May 10, 2019

spider said:
ok so one of u is making eyes, an ex-kgb at least is saying hi, some loner is making an O face, and ash ketchum is smiling at me

BUT NO ONE IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION

how hard is it to admit what are you up to

murderers

hey?

scumtells errywhere in this town, all im sayin'

Hmm, I have not met you yet, but you seem fun so far.

"What are you up to murderers, hey?"

I'm up to murder, hey.

Pedro · May 10, 2019

It's great to see you, yn <33

Dr. Monkey · May 10, 2019

spider said:
ok so one of u is making eyes, an ex-kgb at least is saying hi, some loner is making an O face, and ash ketchum is smiling at me

BUT NO ONE IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION

how hard is it to admit what are you up to

murderers

hey?

scumtells errywhere in this town, all im sayin'

SPODER

Breadcrumbs is what we're up to. Breadcrumbs everywhere.

Natiko · May 10, 2019

spider said:
ok so one of u is making eyes, an ex-kgb at least is saying hi, some loner is making an O face, and ash ketchum is smiling at me

BUT NO ONE IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION

how hard is it to admit what are you up to

murderers

hey?

scumtells errywhere in this town, all im sayin'

ynnny :D

We actually haven't been doing anything. We missed you so much we just cancelled the whole community tbh

Verelios · May 10, 2019

spider said:
ok so one of u is making eyes, an ex-kgb at least is saying hi, some loner is making an O face, and ash ketchum is smiling at me

BUT NO ONE IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION

how hard is it to admit what are you up to

murderers

hey?

scumtells errywhere in this town, all im sayin'

I know nothing about murder, and anyone who says I do is a LIAR and a CHEAT.

Fanto · May 10, 2019

Verelios said:
I know nothing about murder, and anyone who says I do is a LIAR and a CHEAT.

Is this a breadcrumb?

Dr. Monkey · May 10, 2019

Y'all are so crummy. Crumby?

Geno · May 10, 2019

When does the new season start? Sorry if I missed a date, just wondering because I might have time to play the first game.

Verelios · May 10, 2019

Fantomas said:
Is this a breadcrumb?

Pedro · May 10, 2019

Geno said:
When does the new season start? Sorry if I missed a date, just wondering because I might have time to play the first game.

The new OT should be up sometime tomorrow!

Lone_Prodigy · May 10, 2019

spider said:
ok so one of u is making eyes, an ex-kgb at least is saying hi, some loner is making an O face, and ash ketchum is smiling at me

BUT NO ONE IS ANSWERING THE QUESTION

how hard is it to admit what are you up to

murderers

hey?

scumtells errywhere in this town, all im sayin'

That's not my O fa - never mind

Dr. Monkey said:
Y'all are so crummy. Crumby?

I believe the correct term is crumbly, but crummy works in this instance.

Geno · May 10, 2019

Pedro said:
The new OT should be up sometime tomorrow!

Ok thanks!

Pedro · May 11, 2019

Hey, y'all, the new season is up! https://www.resetera.com/threads/resetera-mafia-ot5-dont-mind-my-breadcrumbs.116441/

You can already see two new boards on Outer Mafia that were created thanks to feedback in this thread and in the previous OT: "Priority System Discussion", which will be populated by monkey once she finds time, and "Tactical Talk", which can already be used by anyone if they want to talk about strategies and their experiences in Mafia.

I passed along some of the things people brought up here to the team members who did not post in this thread, but I can't speak for them and what they'll do in the future.

As for myself, once my university gives me a small break I'll be formalizing the way gamerunners should issue warnings to players during games; I'll probably add another section in the guide for gamerunners about that.
After that, I'll discuss with everyone else how we can better rephrase rule 6 following the discussion here.

See ya in the other thread!

MafiEra Season 13 Review Thread |OT|

One Winged Slayer

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Actual Brazilian

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Asked Politely

Is this tag ok?

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