This formatting is gross, by the way. I had to have this open in two tabs to properly respond. I'm gonna break it up.
For anyone who's interested enough to look through it, here's the malus case again, summarized:
D1:
-
Faddy defended malus against
Fantomas (
Fand's post,
#968,
#970).
-
Faddy tried to get
Fran and
Chuggernaut to move on from the discussion about
Chuggernaut's scumread of malus (
Fand's post,
#1016).
-
Faddy claims that malus would be his second most likely target for a kill, behind
Geno but ahead of
Fran, despite not having giving a single reason for suspecting him (
Fand's post,
#1042).
- Many pages later, in his next mention of malus,
Faddy posts another kill list, and malus remains his second most likely target for a kill, once again sandwiched between two townies (
Fand's post,
#1559).
- Finally, while
Geno and
Fran remain in his sights, malus mysteriously vanishes from
Faddy's list of suspicions, with no reasoning given. All three were in
Stan's kill list (
Fand's post,
#1602)
1. Really, this interaction where Fantomas flipped out and lost all of his shit? Also, Faddy didn't defend him; he just say he would make "not much" of malus's entrance and then conceded he might do that as scum. It's a defense at all. It does leave an opening for him to take a read in either direction later. Then he turned it on Fantomas and said he just wanted to know how Fanto got there.
2. What you/Fando say here is that Faddy is trying to get people to move on. Faddy says the thread is stale and people are hung on malus, then he wants people to look at Natiko. He also shades Fran. Looks like he's trying to spread shade/this could possibly be deflecting from malus. It could as easily be ready as scum wanting more targets.
This is the only one that doesn't seem like a reach to me/carries the most potential.
3. Faddy's kill list has malus on it, yes. It doesn't say it's ordered, though; you say that. What I want to know is why do you assume there's any scum on that list at all? I'd agree that it seems likely but we also don't know. We know Terra, Geno, and Fran are not scum. I'd guess Flux isn't scum. I'm not scum. So if there is, it would have to be malus... but why do we assume there is?
4. All the rest of his kill list disappeared, too...?
At this point, before I move on, I will just say again - I think you're reading a hell of a lot into Faddy's posts without much reason to do it. There's nothing definitive or even particularly convincing here to indicate that's what Faddy was thinking.
Fand's summary:
****NOTE: I'M PASTING IT IN HERE****
"Let me get back to this since I had to leave for a bit and couldn't offer a conclusion.
These are all the posts Faddy mentioned malus on D1.
He prodded a townie for his read on malus, and couldn't come up with a follow up when Fantomas pegged malus as a scum lean.
There was a discussion between two townies (Chuggs and Fran) about malus. Faddy didn't engage at all with it and even tried to deescalate the situation, mentioning that it was weird people were hang up on malus.
Despite all that he put him right at the top of his kill list, just between two townies. With no reads on malus, he was apparently willing to shoot him "just for giggles", after all there are ZERO posts about his read on him.
Of course, that wasn't really true. He was just adding some filler to his list, trying to cover him up later. He didn't have any intention of shooting malus then, and he made that clear when he suddenly removed him from his his list when the time came. Again, with zero explanation on it.
Combined with the vote mess with the 3 wagons last phase, malus overall posting, his bad vote on Pirate Bae (who I'm also guilty of, I admit) and his
horrible and undeveloped stance on me last phase, I am confident in my vote on malus."
1. Counterpoint: he didn't need a follow up if malus is a townie; he got a townie to make scumread on a townie. Again, this is a reach to my eye.
2. As above, this one's fair.
3. It wasn't right at the top. It was second. And again, Faddy didn't say it was ordered. I don't get this at all.
4. Where's just for giggles? I'm not going back to dig but I wanna see it if it was there.
5. Again, he removed all the others, too.
D2:
- malus makes the same
low-hanging fruit townread of KetKat that
turmoil also did (
#2652).
- I call him out for it. He doesn't address me (
#2658).
- malus votes for Pirate Bae using an unexplained graph as reasoning. This vote is locked-in and cannot be changed (
#2712).
- In his very next post, malus backpedals on his vote for Pirate Bae (
#2714).
- I call him out for it (as do a few others, like Kyan and Febe). He doesn't address me (
#2720).
- I call malus out a third time, this time setting locking my vote down on him (
#2748).
- As soon as the vote comes in,
Faddy once again jumps in to defend malus, this time saying that he was "probably memeing" when he locked his vote in for the phase using the graph as reasoning (
#2752).
-
During the mess at EoD, malus comes back in and finally addresses me and those asking for an explanation for the graph for the first time (
#2820).
- malus ends that post by saying that "this whole thing" [his explanation] matters, and that people should kill Flux (
Fantomas' post,
#2820).
- After all the details come in, malus' final contribution that day is saying "just don't let it end on a draw or on Pirate Bae" (
#2843).
1. I don't see a huge problem here either. This is a very common argument about easy lynches. And it's not the same argument. turmoil specifically said Ketkat was low hanging fruit (2656) and malus and Ketkat were easy targets (1151) - why does malus have to be scum there? We know Ketkat was town. And malus's post comes between the two - right before turmoil's second, long after turmoil's first. Why isn't it turmoil echoing malus's read? It came six hours later. Again, you're reading into things. Is it possible it was the coordinated scum position? Sure. Is there any evidence of that? No. The problem with malus's read is that it's wishy washy - he's leaving room - but that reads to me as uncertainty.
2. Okay.
3. Yeah, I addressed that before. I do not scum read this at all; I read it completely opposite of how you do. I dunno what to tell you there. I don't think scum would backpedal like that. Maybe a new scum player, it's possible, but I just don't see it.
4. Okay. You're real hung up on malus not answering you when that could as easily be malus just not posting a lot, you know? Febe ain't answering a lot of shit; does it make him scum? (I mean, it might. But what I'm saying is: malus isn't alone in this.)
5. The graph was dumb in general. I don't get Faddy's post but I don't see a smoking gun in it, either. Scum has to defend town, too. It could be either. It's as dumb a post as the graph itself.
6. He didn't just answer you about the graph; he answered me, too, and Natiko. It looks like he's catching up. Why are you mad that he's answering you? It looks here like no matter what you're gonna scum read it. Why tho?
7. are you really gonna get down on people for trying to kill Flux because I mean
8. Okay. It's not a great post but it doesn't scream scum, either. He had already voted. He had said he was tired. It could be that he was actually tired or that he was avoiding. It's indeterminate.
So far I think that's like 2.5 ticks in the maybe scum column here for me and a lot in the not.
I'll do d3 in a little while. First I want to point this out. This is that post you didn't like:
I guess that's fair. I'll try to get my thoughts in order and get a couple explanations out, but I'm currently not very much awake so it may not come across as comprehensible as I think it does.
Both KetKat and Turmoil are generally scum or only very lightly town read (seen in the graph based on the ranked lists). There were a few mentions of how no one was defending KetKat but all those still put her rather low on their lists (I guess I'm guilty of this as well). In fact the only one completely town reading KetKat was Pirate Bae, whom I had an iffy feeling about anyway and it looked to me like she was trying to capitalize on a mislynch there.
If Pirate Bae flipped scum I would feel better about Chuggs and probably also about KetKat. I would look into people who kind of town read her but not very committed, such as Sawneeks or Faddy. A town flip would make me look into Zubz or Fireblend who had her as kind of scum but not very committed.
But this whole thing is moot now anyway with the role claim. So if Fran doesn't use the override I hope people who haven't voted yet go for Flux now.
I just don't see scum here. I see someone reconsidering and thinking about a vote they locked and a play they made they probably thought was clever. And I'll say: I'm probably reading into this, too, because I remember quite clearly being a new player and thinking ooh I'll do some cool shit and literally no one was impressed because that's not how things go. But malus takes his L with grace and tries to explain what he was doing. It strikes me as genuine. It's not agenda driven. He's doing his best to explain his reads. He, like many people, wanted attention on Flux. Hell, there are still people thinking about killing Flux now. I hardly think it was clear scum back then.
Maybe it's a fundamental disconnect between the way we read the game. But I do not see malus as scum, full stop, and the fact that these are the kinds of reasons that got him put up against Faddy and Fandorin seem super suspicious to me.
