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Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
oh yea think that was brought up earlier today.

Na, a clear like flux has doesn't warrant the Teflon status Sorian has given flux in response to me seeing it as fake concern.
So only confirmed town are Fran and fant correct?

By your logic, Fran wouldn't be cleared either, no.

You should read the day 2 end instead of just making assumptions based on what other people said. The order of events is important as is what was actually claimed and how the two positioned themselves. turmoil threw Flux a chance to save him and Flux tossed it aside. Two scum have no reason to do a lot of the things that happened there.

This chat is going to be the cutest thing to read through post-game, isn't it? Lol

It's about as paranoia driven as you'd expect. A lot of me talking and Monkey dancing around me with probing questions :P

Also, can someone point me to the "Zubz's slip"?

I think I missed that.

Blarg has a string of posts at the bottom of the last page I think, like 10 hours ago. He had it quoted in one of them (I will forever be lazy since I play mostly on mobile and I really don't like ERA on mobile these days.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
I've caught up with the game and will post in a bit. Just need to take a shower first since I'll be leaving in a bit.

But some quick and dirty answers before I get to it:

Here's his explanation of his CeeCee placement. This is in response to Natiko pushing back. I can't tell if this is more of Fando trying to play both sides or if this is in line with what he was saying before so I'll put it out there and see if anyone else has thoughts.


This was after malus's stats (pre-explanation, I think) and vote. He didn't give more context until:


What was the more info we would have gotten out of a Bae lynch before that claim? What were the ties Bae had? What would it reveal? I went through this myself in an earlier post so maybe I'm biased but in terms of connections, pre-claim, Ket gave us way more than Bae. I'd like to see Fando explain his thinking on this one.

Then all the claims started to happen and I keep grabbing posts to quote and they keep not being in my multi so I give up and will come back here tomorrow since I should be in bed.

Anyway, I want to talk about Fandorin with someone and also with Fandorin.

Re.: CeeCee and my response to Natiko

I wasn't advocating for CeeCee's lynch yesterday, I was elaborating on my theory that CeeCee could be a scum kill power role that claimed Town Vig. after using his shot, not really explaining where I put him on my list, just that I mentioned that when I responded to Fran's list.

Considering we've had another Night with a single kill, I still think that theory holds some water.

On my vote for Bae, I explained more of that vote when Neeks called me out since it looked like I was sheeping malus on his weird graph. I edged for Bae over KetKat yesterday since (i) she had more posts on the game and more reads out than KetKat and could give us more information when flipped, and (ii) I agreed with the idea that others brought to the thread that Scum! Pirate Bae was sucking up to Town! KetKat expecting her town flip to give her credit. This idea backfired hard after her claim and I was wrong on my read, but that was my mindset then.

I'll add also listed Pirate Bae when Brazil asked me my 3 top gut scum reads back at D1.
Why did you two feel this way
You mean why we didn't want Pirate Bae to be the D2 lynch? Cause she was leading the votes and her claim had cleared her back then, plus I had voted for her previously but couldn't move it.
 
OP
OP
The Bear

The Bear

Forest Animal
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,194
==== DAY 3 VOTES ====
Day Start

faddy (3 votes)
fantomas - #2,985
fluxwavez - #2,996
ceecee - #3,163

fandorin (2 votes)
sawneeks - #2,964
thechuggernaut - #3,097

ezekelrage (1 votes)
blargonaut - #3,152

pirate bae (1 votes)
dr. monkey - #3,142

malus (1 votes)
brazil - #3,017

ceecee (1 votes)
ezekelrage - #2,961

zubz (0 votes)
blargonaut - #3,105 #3,152

lone_prodigy (0 votes)
dr. monkey - #3,114 #3,142

Post Counts:
blargonaut: 35 fantomas: 34 fran: 24 dr. monkey: 23 sorian: 19 fluxwavez: 15 thechuggernaut: 14 sawneeks: 14 brazil: 11 ezekelrage: 9 faddy: 9 rac: 8 natiko: 7 ceecee: 4 kyanrute: 4 grizzly: 3 pirate bae: 3 fireblend: 3 absolutbro: 3 malus: 2 ketkat: 1 fandorin: 1

Click here to go to the Vote Tool!
 

absolutbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,628
I think they're referring to Zubz posting at least once that scum seemed to know what the day modifiers are?
 

malus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,947
We wil never be able to make a read from the Kawl/Nin/LP spot, right?



And this post is so weak. How do you feel about Fando and Brazil?
I'm not sure what to think about Fandorin. He advocated to vote for Turmoil, when it was still pretty open whether Flux or Turmoil would be lynched.
Though this post gives me opposite vibes:
Flux refusing to answer that and calling out turmoil settles it. Need to flip one of them.
So could be he's scum realizing that a push for Flux was useless after the claim, but I don't really get that feeling.

Similar for Brazil. I think during the day end debacle I was pretty much in the same place with my reads as him and he comes across as pretty consistent. I guess he wanted votes for Flux there, but at that time I would have voted Flux as well if I would have been able to.

Of the two I think Brazil is more town than Fandorin.

Can you point me to a spot where Turmoil was suspicious of you? I don't recall seeing that.

Town

Fantomas: I like his effort so far and he has made some good points. Sometimes his reads seem a bit superficial, but we really don't have much information to work with, so I don't blame him for that.

Blarg: Sometimes I can see a bit of consciousness shine through the madness and it gives me hope. Seriously though he has made some good posts without provocation, while in GoT (where he was scum) he only backed down from his antics when he was an actual contender to be lynched for it.

Chuggs: I'm kind of meh on the role claim, but otherwise has made a solid impression so far.

CeeCee: With the new revelations on his role he could honestly fall on both sides for me. For now I'm more leaning town because I can't come up with a reason why scum would do that, but then that might also have been the plan all along.

KetKat: I'm always a bit suspicious if many people seem to scum read the same player, because if no one opposes the scum read it means scum is okay with it. On the other hand I guess scum wouldn't want to seem to be defending one of their own too vehemently.

Rac: Seems to be constantly catching up, so not much contribution today, but what he posted made me feel more like town than scum.

Turmoil: He hasn't contributed much today and what he said didn't give me much confidence.

Pirate Bae: This is mostly gut feeling. I feel like she's throwing some half baked shade around to see what sticks.

Scum
It's pretty weak as well, but this game is very intransparent for me at the moment.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
Blarg has a string of posts at the bottom of the last page I think, like 10 hours ago. He had it quoted in one of them (I will forever be lazy since I play mostly on mobile and I really don't like ERA on mobile these days.

Found it. I don't believe that scum would know how each modifier works but that depends how Grizzly planned the game so not much to work there.

We are at D3 now. How do you feel about Blarg?
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
It's about as paranoia driven as you'd expect. A lot of me talking and Monkey dancing around me with probing questions :P
Listen, I have very good reason not to trust you generally, sir.
Blarg has a string of posts at the bottom of the last page I think, like 10 hours ago. He had it quoted in one of them (I will forever be lazy since I play mostly on mobile and I really don't like ERA on mobile these days.
me either :/
Re.: CeeCee and my response to Natiko

I wasn't advocating for CeeCee's lynch yesterday, I was elaborating on my theory that CeeCee could be a scum kill power role that claimed Town Vig. after using his shot, not really explaining where I put him on my list, just that I mentioned that when I responded to Fran's list.

Considering we've had another Night with a single kill, I still think that theory holds some water.

On my vote for Bae, I explained more of that vote when Neeks called me out since it looked like I was sheeping malus on his weird graph. I edged for Bae over KetKat yesterday since (i) she had more posts on the game and more reads out than KetKat and could give us more information when flipped, and (ii) I agreed with the idea that others brought to the thread that Scum! Pirate Bae was sucking up to Town! KetKat expecting her town flip to give her credit. This idea backfired hard after her claim and I was wrong on my read, but that was my mindset then.

I'll add also listed Pirate Bae when Brazil asked me my 3 top gut scum reads back at D1.
I didn't say you were advocating for CeeCee's lynch yesterday. You keep responding to people with this simplistic black&white kind of thing when people are probing you for nuance. What I said was that your position on CeeCee and your ordering didn't align. If you think someone is more likely scum, you order them as scum, even if they're not your lynch pick. To do anything else is to introduce confusion, which does not serve town. Or it could well indicate you're faking your reads.

Last phase, I pointed out that even if Bae had been scum and was sucking up to Ket, that only gave us a tie to Ket, whereas a Ket flip, prior to Bae's claim, gave us info either way on everyone around her. I understand your vote. I don't understand the position you're taking. This explanation did not help.
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
Found it. I don't believe that scum would know how each modifier works but that depends how Grizzly planned the game so not much to work there.

We are at D3 now. How do you feel about Blarg?

Just going to self quote myself since I literally just wrote a response about it to Monkey in our chat

"As for Blarg, I think he's town. A lot is always wrong with what he does and I feel like he does that purposely so he can still keep that blarginess going while still putting his real thoughts out. That Zubz/Ezekel read and worry is real. I think Blarg does believe scum might have more info on modifiers and that's where the real slip was but he has a point on why cabot might have been hit, it's another day where we have someone weird dying when you consider there is a cop claim out and two confirmed people. They can't be THAT worried about protection."

The "Blarg likes to get things wrong" comment is in response to her saying that he's getting a lot of things wrong. To expand a bit, I don't think he was caught up on the game thread when he started posting today but he wanted to have some of his fun. He seems caught up now which is why he got more consistent.
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,065
By your logic, Fran wouldn't be cleared either, no.

You should read the day 2 end instead of just making assumptions based on what other people said. The order of events is important as is what was actually claimed and how the two positioned themselves. turmoil threw Flux a chance to save him and Flux tossed it aside. Two scum have no reason to do a lot of the things that happened there.
No Fran wouldn't be the same. Fran claimed backup. Has proven he had the override power. A backup role for scumwas flipped. So not comparable at all.

Flux - still nothing concrete other than assuming what actions scum would take? Ok. that doesn't put flux in the pile with Fran and fant for me. Let's not argue about this, just creates noise. Flux is confirmed to you, but not to me. We'll leave it at that.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
==== DAY 3 VOTES ====
Day Start

faddy (3 votes)
fantomas - #2,985
fluxwavez - #2,996
ceecee - #3,163

fandorin (2 votes)
sawneeks - #2,964
thechuggernaut - #3,097

ezekelrage (1 votes)
blargonaut - #3,152

pirate bae (1 votes)
dr. monkey - #3,142

malus (1 votes)
brazil - #3,017

ceecee (1 votes)
ezekelrage - #2,961

zubz (0 votes)
blargonaut - #3,105 #3,152

lone_prodigy (0 votes)
dr. monkey - #3,114 #3,142

Post Counts:
blargonaut: 35 fantomas: 34 fran: 24 dr. monkey: 23 sorian: 19 fluxwavez: 15 thechuggernaut: 14 sawneeks: 14 brazil: 11 ezekelrage: 9 faddy: 9 rac: 8 natiko: 7 ceecee: 4 kyanrute: 4 grizzly: 3 pirate bae: 3 fireblend: 3 absolutbro: 3 malus: 2 ketkat: 1 fandorin: 1

Click here to go to the Vote Tool!
What the hell, I didn't vote for Bae.

I guess when I quoted Fando's post? I'll put this back.

vote: Lone_Prodigy
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
No Fran wouldn't be the same. Fran claimed backup. Has proven he had the override power. A backup role for scumwas flipped. So not comparable at all.

Flux - still nothing concrete other than assuming what actions scum would take? Ok. that doesn't put flux in the pile with Fran and fant for me. Let's not argue about this, just creates noise. Flux is confirmed to you, but not to me. We'll leave it at that.

Sure, have you read day 2 end now or are you still just going off what other people have said?
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
Do you wanna address the entirety of my post?

Fanto did. Sawneeks nodded in their general direction. But I want more!
I had added Fandorin to my list to ISO, but sure I can go ahead and address it from my current viewpoint:

I wanted to start with this readslist from Fando from mid-d2. At this point, like many of us, he had Ket as scum. Cool, fine. That's pretty normal. I want to point out a few others, though:
Flux is scum here.
turmoil seems pretty sincere.
Bae is a lean scum.
nin and AB are not worth voting because total nulls. I just want to track these as I go through Fando's posts. CeeCee is ?????
Outside of turmoil's placement this list matches the thoughts of quite a few players D2.

This is also the reads post that had NO read on cabot. Nothing.
We know Cabot was town now - what relevance does this have? Why would scum Fand not mention him instead of being more careful?

I point all these out absolutely knowing that yesterday's wildness means a lot of folks' reads changed but Fandorin has been giving me vibes so I wanted to go through his progression.

Fandorin's very next post after this was the one where he said it sucks to see nin go because he was supposedly taking notes. I called this out because it just seemed so weird, but here, nin goes from a total blank to someone Fando wanted to keep around. We get that slant reference to scum chat here. So it's gone from nothing because no posts and then with no posts in between from nin, scum possibility. Small thing. But worth pointing out.
Seems like a reach, if a player you have no read on claims they are about to share a lot of thoughts then drops out I think we can all agree we would have preferred to see their thoughts. I will agree that it's weird he believes it in general though because I'm skeptical Nin has ever taken notes in a game of mafia lol

In #2526 Fandorin comments on Fran's read of Sorian and gives reasons to be cautious about Sorian even though he also townreads Sorian. I wanted to bring this up because it's a both-sides kinda thing and maybe it's Sorian paranoia, but also Fandorin doesn't usually rely on this wishy-washy discourse. It sticks out to me because I know I do it, it's always an issue, and when I'm scum I do it on purpose to play up to people.
Now this is the first really good point and the one that started me down the path of wanting to ISO him since I know he's generally a very strong scum player.

His next reads:

Still Ketkat and Bae at scummiest. Okay. rac's down low. Some consistency there. But look at turmoil - who came more and more into the spotlight as the day progressed. And the text of the read itself is interesting. "I have no reason to townread him because look at this stuff but I'm doing it anyway." What's interesting is that from what turmoil was posting and what we say from his attempt to escape the lynch, he was doing the things Fando expected of him. He was looking for softclaims and breadcrumbs and maybe what he found wasn't accurate but that's what he was trying to glean/force from what he said. Is Fando trying to misdirect here and again play both sides of this read? Especially since people had opened the day focused on turmoil's weird post about Flux hinting at a PR.
This is another fair point and probably the strongest of the connections between the two anyone has pointed out. I find this much more compelling than the election stuff between the two.

Fando was all over the place re: CeeCee. Here he's a mess and doesn't think that he's a town vig unless something else happens, but he's higher up on the list. Why? I don't really know what to make of this except that it's confusing. Chuggs he has as town. Blarg he doesn't know but doesn't want to lynch him, so that's whatever. He had been townreading him earlier. Maybe Blarg's gif focus changes his mind. I can give the benefit of the doubt on that one but it's still really soft.

He clarified then in 2666 (I didn't grab the link, sorry) that he figured CeeCee for a scum JOAT or (scum?) vigilante, but CeeCee was still up higher in the spectrum than turmoil - those two are just weird in that list. He also spends 2691, as a followup, talking about balance and setup, kinda the things he says about turmoil, which is interesting but maybe NAI.
Yeah, his about face yet still waffling on CeeCee was weird to me at the time. Still not sure what to make of it since CeeCee legitimately has yanked everyone's chain multiple times now. I think this becomes a bit of a toss up without verifying CeeCee's alignment first.

Also in 2691, he says now he's townreading Flux this phase and that Flux has said some good things, but he says this in agreement to Febe without specifying anything that caused the change.

I'll continue this in another post. My multiquote borked so I'm doing more links and summary.
Struggling to see why scum Fand would box himself out of scumreading one of the main contenders and one that may be in contention against his scum teammate turmoil. I'll agree it's a read lacking any context for the Switch other than vibes and being brazen.

Here's his explanation of his CeeCee placement. This is in response to Natiko pushing back. I can't tell if this is more of Fando trying to play both sides or if this is in line with what he was saying before so I'll put it out there and see if anyone else has thoughts.

This was after malus's stats (pre-explanation, I think) and vote. He didn't give more context until:


What was the more info we would have gotten out of a Bae lynch before that claim? What were the ties Bae had? What would it reveal? I went through this myself in an earlier post so maybe I'm biased but in terms of connections, pre-claim, Ket gave us way more than Bae. I'd like to see Fando explain his thinking on this one.
The Bae vote makes sense in context, the arguing it gives more info doesn't and I think I recall questioning someone (malus?) on this point as well yesterday.

Then all the claims started to happen and I keep grabbing posts to quote and they keep not being in my multi so I give up and will come back here tomorrow since I should be in bed.

Anyway, I want to talk about Fandorin with someone and also with Fandorin.
Overall I agree there's some strange behavior from Fand, specifically around some of his read waffles. I actually think his day end is the worst part - I just went back to read over his bits since your post for it isn't up. I hadn't caught that he makes a single post to push for a turmoil lynch without really going out of his way to draw attention to it, and then with his last post of the phase makes a point to try and create some separation between him and turmoil which all said might be more concerning than anything else from Fand. I'd completely overlooked it at the time.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
I find this Turmoil's post so weird:

Rac looks like he's flying low to me, starts with a joke, then not a lot, then follows sorian on his cabot read, not liking him right now.

I need to reread and sort my thoughts

I don't like rac regardless! :p. I think I messed up there, sorry

I feel conflicted on that read because I was misreading some interactions, but rac didn't made a lot to make me think he is town, currently I wouldn't vote for him but I don't think I would like him to be lynched either.

Like he was trying to create some interactions with a partner and slight bus them.
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
I find this Turmoil's post so weird:







Like he was trying to create some interactions with a partner and slight bus them.
Yeah, this was one of the early things that made me scumread him. I'll say that of note he drops rac from his top scumread down to third on his list behind Geno and Zubz by day end. I thought the weird shade of Zubz that he doesn't really go into while always keeping Zubz as his secondary lynch preference so to speak made me more concerned about Zubz(Zeke) though.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
"As for Blarg, I think he's town. A lot is always wrong with what he does and I feel like he does that purposely so he can still keep that blarginess going while still putting his real thoughts out. That Zubz/Ezekel read and worry is real. I think Blarg does believe scum might have more info on modifiers and that's where the real slip was but he has a point on why cabot might have been hit, it's another day where we have someone weird dying when you consider there is a cop claim out and two confirmed people. They can't be THAT worried about protection."

The "Blarg likes to get things wrong" comment is in response to her saying that he's getting a lot of things wrong. To expand a bit, I don't think he was caught up on the game thread when he started posting today but he wanted to have some of his fun. He seems caught up now which is why he got more consistent.

I agree. D1 was typical D1 Blarg, I didn't liked his D2 but I'm liking his D3. Now it seems like he is trying to solve the game.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
Listen, I have very good reason not to trust you generally, sir.

me either :/

I didn't say you were advocating for CeeCee's lynch yesterday. You keep responding to people with this simplistic black&white kind of thing when people are probing you for nuance. What I said was that your position on CeeCee and your ordering didn't align. If you think someone is more likely scum, you order them as scum, even if they're not your lynch pick. To do anything else is to introduce confusion, which does not serve town. Or it could well indicate you're faking your reads.

Last phase, I pointed out that even if Bae had been scum and was sucking up to Ket, that only gave us a tie to Ket, whereas a Ket flip, prior to Bae's claim, gave us info either way on everyone around her. I understand your vote. I don't understand the position you're taking. This explanation did not help.

Don't understand your last paragraph. I don't think we would get a tie on Ket if Bae flipped scum, she'd get a lot of town cred. At the same time, KetKat was scum read across the board so I believe it would be way harder to examine those reads and parse out the fake reads.

Bolded felt harsh to me. I don't get where you're coming from with this. I take it you can point other instances where I did this?

I didn't mean to say you were "accusing" me of pushing for CeeCee's lynch, just clarified that I was sharing my theory on him. You quoted the last post from my exchange with Natiko about CeeCee after I ordered him on the list. In the list I had put CeeCee right in the middle, below turmoil. I didn't explicity say whether I was lean town or scum on him, but I think my read is clear in that I wouldn't vote for him yesterday and wanted more information to make that call.

My initial read on him and the ordered list again.

If he isn't scum I will eat my hat

KetKat
Pirate Bae
rac
turmoil7
CeeCee
Fantomas
Chuggs
Blargonaut

WTF are you smoking? He is no way scum

CeeCee is a mess. I don't think I ever bought that he had 2 more shots left, but I was surprised when he said he has none.
Balance talk: for now I'm scratching him as Town Vigilante considering we have no counter claim and only 1 night kill at N1. In a game this size, I don't think scum can only kill via it's factional command, so other kill mechanics should be in place. If we get confirmation that scum can kill 2 people per phase (e.g. 2 town kills at night; someone claims some sort of protection at night, like a wasted bulletproof vest or a doctor save), that would solidify CeeCee as our Town Vig. However if that doesn't happen and we instead keep getting Nights with a single kill, I think there would be a high chance that CeeCee gambited hard and is actually a Scum Vig.]

Overall I agree there's some strange behavior from Fand, specifically around some of his read waffles. I actually think his day end is the worst part - I just went back to read over his bits since your post for it isn't up. I hadn't caught that he makes a single post to push for a turmoil lynch without really going out of his way to draw attention to it, and then with his last post of the phase makes a point to try and create some separation between him and turmoil which all said might be more concerning than anything else from Fand. I'd completely overlooked it at the time.

You mean this last post right? I think it summarizes my views of the "turmoil connection".

He never really sheeped me, but yeah I don't know what is up with his constant town mentions of me. He never really doubled down on it.

Besides me town leaning him throughout the game, I don't think I've linked myself with him, while at the same time he had mentioned me as a strong town read since the beginning, before other players started voting for me as a possible town leader at D1. He waffled a bunch and had that weird post that's been pointed out a lot already that he was worried about the "Fandorin train" and later that it deflated, but that didn't lead up to much. I wasn't the topic of discussion on D2 and I don't think he even mentioned me after that.

I understand turmoil could've been interested in pushing his scummate as the leader on D1, but other than that this link was aimless for a scum player. I never really bring much attention on this community, especially early on, so him having me as one of his "strongest town reads" doesn't work out at all.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
I still don't understand Turmoil's gambit. Did he thought that found a breadcrumb from Flux or a scum partner targeted him and decided that he was a PR?

The first part is a really risky plan for scum because if they were wrong it creates a 1v1 situation. The second part could be most likely but I don't know with what they could have targeted him when he was commuting. If they targeted him with something and the action failed they could have thought that he was a PR but why claim when you already had a failed action?

Everything is really strange.
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,421
São Paulo, Brazil
I still don't understand Turmoil's gambit. Did he thought that found a breadcrumb from Flux or a scum partner targeted him and decided that he was a PR?

The first part is a really risky plan for scum because if they were wrong it creates a 1v1 situation. The second part could be most likely but I don't know with what they could have targeted him when he was commuting. If they targeted him with something and the action failed they could have thought that he was a PR but why claim when you already had a failed action?

Everything is really strange.
Maybe they thought he was a neutral. The way Flux denied soft-claiming on D1 could've given turmoil that idea.

Either way, whatever the motivation, turmoil probably thought that you'd override him after you voted for him. He was cornered and probably felt like he needed to come up with something to escape.
 

rac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,113
You should read the day 2 end instead of just making assumptions based on what other people said. The order of events is important as is what was actually claimed and how the two positioned themselves. turmoil threw Flux a chance to save him and Flux tossed it aside. Two scum have no reason to do a lot of the things that happened there.
if d2 end was scum/scum why would flux save turmoil? one of them was going to die, it makes sense to throw each other under the bus
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,065
There's the Zeke I know and love.

How can you predict something like this?
Because the Fran/fant pile is reserved for townies cleared mechanically or concrete evidence. I can assume anything they post is to help town.

Fran I explained earlier on top of him having to luck up with having an override ability as scum.

Fant - no one has cc'd.
==================
On a scale of 1-10 with town being 1 and scum being 10, Franto would be 0s. If I was at a 8 for flux now, I may drop to a 4/5 after reading how d2 played out. Still not 0 because there was nothing concrete to move them to 0.

So that's how I can predict that.

Add to that the fact that I don't like how flux is pushing for a rush to hammer. With a modifier that can help town and it being less than 24hrs since start of day. That doesn't help town, especially saying there may be another override or concern for big shots. If franto made those same posts, I would say the same. Also the push for cc to name their role.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
Add to that the fact that I don't like how flux is pushing for a rush to hammer. With a modifier that can help town and it being less than 24hrs since start of day. That doesn't help town, especially saying there may be another override or concern for big shots. If franto made those same posts, I would say the same. Also the push for cc to name their role.
I always do that. Again, the only reason that I actually wouldn't want that this time is because of the modifier, but otherwise, I'd have no problem with it.

And I really don't understand this defensiveness from people regarding the fact that CeeCee shouldn't say his role. We have a bunch of people who have called out their role names as part of their claims. But CeeCee should be protected from this for some reason?

The fact that he's supposed to be town-aligned but could kill like that and chose the target he did is still very dubious to me.
 

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
Don't understand your last paragraph. I don't think we would get a tie on Ket if Bae flipped scum, she'd get a lot of town cred. At the same time, KetKat was scum read across the board so I believe it would be way harder to examine those reads and parse out the fake reads.

Bolded felt harsh to me. I don't get where you're coming from with this. I take it you can point other instances where I did this?

I didn't mean to say you were "accusing" me of pushing for CeeCee's lynch, just clarified that I was sharing my theory on him. You quoted the last post from my exchange with Natiko about CeeCee after I ordered him on the list. In the list I had put CeeCee right in the middle, below turmoil. I didn't explicity say whether I was lean town or scum on him, but I think my read is clear in that I wouldn't vote for him yesterday and wanted more information to make that call.

My initial read on him and the ordered list again.





You mean this last post right? I think it summarizes my views of the "turmoil connection".



Besides me town leaning him throughout the game, I don't think I've linked myself with him, while at the same time he had mentioned me as a strong town read since the beginning, before other players started voting for me as a possible town leader at D1. He waffled a bunch and had that weird post that's been pointed out a lot already that he was worried about the "Fandorin train" and later that it deflated, but that didn't lead up to much. I wasn't the topic of discussion on D2 and I don't think he even mentioned me after that.

I understand turmoil could've been interested in pushing his scummate as the leader on D1, but other than that this link was aimless for a scum player. I never really bring much attention on this community, especially early on, so him having me as one of his "strongest town reads" doesn't work out at all.
You posted you thought turmoil should be flipped - why didn't you follow that up more when it was close and could go either way instead of spending your last post generally saying you don't have any insight into turmoil but that you don't think the connection is that strong between you two?

if d2 end was scum/scum why would flux save turmoil? one of them was going to die, it makes sense to throw each other under the bus
There was no clear path to for sure 'saving' anyone. I explained earlier though that if Flux was scum he could have said "yes I'm a PR" if he was hoping to give them both a chance to live, or if he was for sure throwing turmoil under the bus he could have simply said "No, I'm vanilla". By choosing the path he did he risked having to claim a role that could be counterclaimed which could have gotten them both lynched. It doesn't make sense then for it to be scum v scum.
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,065
I always do that. Again, the only reason that I actually wouldn't want that this time is because of the modifier, but otherwise, I'd have no problem with it.

And I really don't understand this defensiveness from people regarding the fact that CeeCee shouldn't say his role. We have a bunch of people who have called out their role names as part of their claims. But CeeCee should be protected from this for some reason?

The fact that he's supposed to be town-aligned but could kill like that and chose the target he did is still very dubious to me.
I wouldn't mind a cc flip. My issue with you calling for the name was the possibility you need to kill a specific person or something.
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,065
The same excuse that's been made for CeeCee withholding his role name ever since I brought it up by different people. It's pretty convenient.
True, which is why the cc flip could be fun. We saw turmoil wanted to keep cc alive. Wondering if that was to add to the conversation or save a scum. Seems cc lied about the number of shots. Was that to string town along and survive or to bait a mafia kill?

Could change after I read day 2 and cc's interactions with turmoil.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
On the modifiers talk, I think it's worth remembering how we hold a public and open voting in the thread each night, and the fact that the Cthulhu modifer influenced it as well.

I think at least some discussion on the matter is expected from us, so scum having some privileged information might make sense for this. After all, this game has rules that go especifically against the norm of the community by having us vote in the thread during the night.

Might be scum knows what modifiers are beneficial to them. We know turmoil switched for Cthulhu after voting for HvV, and that modifier helped scum last phase.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
Seems cc lied about the number of shots. Was that to string town along and survive or to bait a mafia kill?
Latter.
Okay, pure 100% God's honest truth.

I am town day vig, that's all true. However, I only had the one shot.

The stuff about having 3 shots was to try and bait scum to NK me rather than someone valuable.
If we want to look at someone with an odd role claim progression, CeeCee's it. But we do know he was "involved" in a direct kill for sure. Still a mess.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887

Natiko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,263
Concerning these two posts: Are we supposed to assume that there should have already been more than 1 kill either on N1 or N2?
How many games have you been in this size with only one NK? It's not exactly the norm for our community. It also generally speaking makes me feel better about CeeCee's claim as we continue to not see other non-expected kills pop up (reducing the likelihood of CeeCee being a scum JOAT).
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
You posted you thought turmoil should be flipped - why didn't you follow that up more when it was close and could go either way instead of spending your last post generally saying you don't have any insight into turmoil but that you don't think the connection is that strong between you two?


There was no clear path to for sure 'saving' anyone. I explained earlier though that if Flux was scum he could have said "yes I'm a PR" if he was hoping to give them both a chance to live, or if he was for sure throwing turmoil under the bus he could have simply said "No, I'm vanilla". By choosing the path he did he risked having to claim a role that could be counterclaimed which could have gotten them both lynched. It doesn't make sense then for it to be scum v scum.
I hadn't reached the limit yet, so I could've posted more at that point, but I'll add that I posted that in response to Neeks saying she was leaning on voting for Flux. She mentioned her beef with the turmoil connection with me and said she was leaning for Flux. I know that link doesn't really exist, so I felt I needed to respond there.

Honestly I was also very indecisive about it until the end. I would've voted for turmoil there at the end if I still had my vote, but it wasn't really that clear cut to me.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
and that modifier helped scum last phase.

How?

How many games have you been in this size with only one NK? It's not exactly the norm for our community. It also generally speaking makes me feel better about CeeCee's claim as we continue to not see other non-expected kills pop up (reducing the likelihood of CeeCee being a scum JOAT).

Hard to make that read when we are at D3 and we don't know much about what the setup is, what powers town has and what every modifier does.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
Concerning these two posts: Are we supposed to assume that there should have already been more than 1 kill either on N1 or N2?
I expected more kills, yeah. Single kill nights would make this a very long game, considering the size of the roster. Even if we buy CeeCee's claim, I think we are still missing a killer role, whatever it's alignment.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
How many games have you been in this size with only one NK? It's not exactly the norm for our community. It also generally speaking makes me feel better about CeeCee's claim as we continue to not see other non-expected kills pop up (reducing the likelihood of CeeCee being a scum JOAT).
I don't recall if I've actually been in a game this size before. Maybe 1. But certainly haven't ever been in a game this active. Fair enough. Does bring me to this...
I still don't understand Turmoil's gambit. Did he thought that found a breadcrumb from Flux or a scum partner targeted him and decided that he was a PR?

The first part is a really risky plan for scum because if they were wrong it creates a 1v1 situation. The second part could be most likely but I don't know with what they could have targeted him when he was commuting. If they targeted him with something and the action failed they could have thought that he was a PR but why claim when you already had a failed action?

Everything is really strange.
The way I see it, whatever turmoil was trying to do was based on something that happened during N1. I barely posted anything hinting at a PR in D1, and his explicit hinting at something early in D2 was clearly because he was planning to pull out his claim sooner than later. Doesn't make much sense to try to "out" me otherwise.

So there's a good chance they targeted me for something on N1. But assuming that I had a PR if they got a result back that their action failed doesn't make sense when other things could have happened. Unless they thought their action had high enough priority that it would bypass something else.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
How?



Hard to make that read when we are at D3 and we don't know much about what the setup is, what powers town has and what every modifier does.
Limited discussion, locked down votes avoiding pressure and prodding from town. If you didn't have a override then, all players would have to be very conservative with their votes during the phase.
 

EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,065
Latter.

If we want to look at someone with an odd role claim progression, CeeCee's it. But we do know he was "involved" in a direct kill for sure. Still a mess.
So is the theory, that cc is cleared due to claiming 1 shot vig?

I don't like that at all. Would rather get answers there sooner than later.

Let's try not to waste time trying to guess the number of possible kills etc. currently we don't know what rbs or protection roles are in play. So that gets us nowhere.
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
I still don't understand Turmoil's gambit. Did he thought that found a breadcrumb from Flux or a scum partner targeted him and decided that he was a PR?

The first part is a really risky plan for scum because if they were wrong it creates a 1v1 situation. The second part could be most likely but I don't know with what they could have targeted him when he was commuting. If they targeted him with something and the action failed they could have thought that he was a PR but why claim when you already had a failed action?

Everything is really strange.

It was either a complete last ditch guess, not really outside the realm of possibility, it's a 50/50 chance of guessing right, or they did try to target him, scum could have a role cop as the easy example. They wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a role block or a miss from their perspective but they may have just guessed there too.

I think what I'm most confident in is there wasn't a crumb anywhere and I think other teammates would have talked turmoil from guessin based on a crumb. Flux had no idea what I was talking about when I asked him about it multiple times yesterday. If anything, I think it was just a guess based on how Flux responded to turmoil early in the day saying that he didn't crumb a PR but maybe he crumbed a name (or something, I'm still unclear on what Flux was even saying in those posts).

if d2 end was scum/scum why would flux save turmoil? one of them was going to die, it makes sense to throw each other under the bus

Because the two choices Flux had were "I am vanilla" or "I am a PR." The first one verifies turmoil's claim AND is easier on Flux because then he doesn't have to make up a role that could be counter claimed. Instead he said he was a PR which puts him and turmoil in a 1v1 and has the added difficult that he had to now say he was a commuter and hope no one could point to that and say it's a lie.

I always do that. Again, the only reason that I actually wouldn't want that this time is because of the modifier, but otherwise, I'd have no problem with it.

And I really don't understand this defensiveness from people regarding the fact that CeeCee shouldn't say his role. We have a bunch of people who have called out their role names as part of their claims. But CeeCee should be protected from this for some reason?

The fact that he's supposed to be town-aligned but could kill like that and chose the target he did is still very dubious to me.

Let's add some irony to this description, I don't remember what game it was, I think that .5 gafia game we did that I modded for Palmer, but Stanley was a one shot day vigilante that sat on his shot the whole game and might not have even ended up using it, or if he did it was at the very end. So Stan getting shot my a day vig? *chef's kiss* But my real point, a one shot day killer is town, I still think scum would have been restricted day 1 from using it just to allow a town counter to set up and it doesn't make sense for a neutral anymore since what even would be the win con? I still don't see the point for anyone to have claimed their real name, what even is the point? nin's role flipped as an overrider and he's not particularly famous for having that role and sure, the verelios/include masons were a role but I think Grizzly mix and matched memes with random roles just so no one could guess PRs based on the role name and, again, scum would just have the fake claims anyway.

I just fail to see why you'd be stuck in the whole name thing.

On the modifiers talk, I think it's worth remembering how we hold a public and open voting in the thread each night, and the fact that the Cthulhu modifer influenced it as well.

I think at least some discussion on the matter is expected from us, so scum having some privileged information might make sense for this. After all, this game has rules that go especifically against the norm of the community by having us vote in the thread during the night.

Might be scum knows what modifiers are beneficial to them. We know turmoil switched for Cthulhu after voting for HvV, and that modifier helped scum last phase.

I see this mentioned a few times. The Cthulhu modifier affects everyone equally, it wasn't a particularly scum-sided modifier. Who it really hurt was whoever was up for lynch at day end because the stuck votes and lack of discussion means that whoever was put forward first was likely to get lynched. If that person ends up being scum then suddenly the modifier fucks over scum, if it had been someone town, the modifier would have been cakewalk for scum.
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
So is the theory, that cc is cleared due to claiming 1 shot vig?

I don't like that at all. Would rather get answers there sooner than later.

Let's try not to waste time trying to guess the number of possible kills etc. currently we don't know what rbs or protection roles are in play. So that gets us nowhere.

For me, yeah mostly, also the fact that CeeCee claimed the shot before even doing it which I don't know why scum would ever do since it could have just been a secret kill. I think the kill itself sucked, I think the circumstances sucked, I also think CeeCee would have totally done that on a whim with no ulterior motive.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
Let's add some irony to this description, I don't remember what game it was, I think that .5 gafia game we did that I modded for Palmer, but Stanley was a one shot day vigilante that sat on his shot the whole game and might not have even ended up using it, or if he did it was at the very end. So Stan getting shot my a day vig? *chef's kiss* But my real point, a one shot day killer is town, I still think scum would have been restricted day 1 from using it just to allow a town counter to set up and it doesn't make sense for a neutral anymore since what even would be the win con? I still don't see the point for anyone to have claimed their real name, what even is the point? nin's role flipped as an overrider and he's not particularly famous for having that role and sure, the verelios/include masons were a role but I think Grizzly mix and matched memes with random roles just so no one could guess PRs based on the role name and, again, scum would just have the fake claims anyway.

I just fail to see why you'd be stuck in the whole name thing.
I mean, does it have to be town-aligned? If it was, then why is the command some stealth kill stuff instead of just being out in the open like the override?

I want to hear the damn name from CeeCee. I don't know what it's going to get us. But I at least want that so I can have one less thing to be preoccupied about him with.

Sawneeks, what do you think about CeeCee right now?
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
It was either a complete last ditch guess, not really outside the realm of possibility, it's a 50/50 chance of guessing right, or they did try to target him, scum could have a role cop as the easy example. They wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a role block or a miss from their perspective but they may have just guessed there too.

I think what I'm most confident in is there wasn't a crumb anywhere and I think other teammates would have talked turmoil from guessin based on a crumb. Flux had no idea what I was talking about when I asked him about it multiple times yesterday. If anything, I think it was just a guess based on how Flux responded to turmoil early in the day saying that he didn't crumb a PR but maybe he crumbed a name (or something, I'm still unclear on what Flux was even saying in those posts).



Because the two choices Flux had were "I am vanilla" or "I am a PR." The first one verifies turmoil's claim AND is easier on Flux because then he doesn't have to make up a role that could be counter claimed. Instead he said he was a PR which puts him and turmoil in a 1v1 and has the added difficult that he had to now say he was a commuter and hope no one could point to that and say it's a lie.



Let's add some irony to this description, I don't remember what game it was, I think that .5 gafia game we did that I modded for Palmer, but Stanley was a one shot day vigilante that sat on his shot the whole game and might not have even ended up using it, or if he did it was at the very end. So Stan getting shot my a day vig? *chef's kiss* But my real point, a one shot day killer is town, I still think scum would have been restricted day 1 from using it just to allow a town counter to set up and it doesn't make sense for a neutral anymore since what even would be the win con? I still don't see the point for anyone to have claimed their real name, what even is the point? nin's role flipped as an overrider and he's not particularly famous for having that role and sure, the verelios/include masons were a role but I think Grizzly mix and matched memes with random roles just so no one could guess PRs based on the role name and, again, scum would just have the fake claims anyway.

I just fail to see why you'd be stuck in the whole name thing.



I see this mentioned a few times. The Cthulhu modifier affects everyone equally, it wasn't a particularly scum-sided modifier. Who it really hurt was whoever was up for lynch at day end because the stuck votes and lack of discussion means that whoever was put forward first was likely to get lynched. If that person ends up being scum then suddenly the modifier fucks over scum, if it had been someone town, the modifier would have been cakewalk for scum.
Even if we disagree on the effects of the modifier, the fact that we have a open vote indicates to me that we should discuss at some level the choice of the modifiers, at least more than the confusion that follows the already usual post from someone that, for someone reason, expects everyone to know the effects of the modifier before voting.
 

absolutbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,628
I see a few possibilities for how Turmoil got started with Flux:

1. Scum targeted Flux with a power N1, got a result that tells them they missed or couldn't target, and realized he was a PR. They tried to build a 'Flux is a PR!' case to get Flux lynched. This doesn't make a ton of sense as PR =\= Scum as I pointed out, but it was certainly an option. I think this is the most likely option myself. I don't know why you wouldn't have a regular goon make the push instead of an actual scum PR, but that would require full coordination among the scum team, which we all know doesn't 100% happen.

2. Turmoil took a hail mary guess and everything about it went wrong. Bad idea, but bad ideas have certainly happened before.

3. Flux is scum and they tried to lynch him as a ploy to make town think his particular power was out of play. Since they had a backup, they would keep the power (if it's a switcher or blocker it might make town PRs feel "safe" on their results) and town would have no idea. This is a pretty bad plan, since why not keep the power in play until Town says something about its possible existence. It does get the survivor some town points, since they "proved" the other person was lying. Still, pretty bad or at least very ballsy plan.

4. Scum blocked AND checked Flux. This is the reeaaalllly stretching option, since it requires a scum team to burn two powers on Flux because .... ?? Exceedingly unlikely, but still technically an option.

In the end, we are unlikely to know until the game is over.
 

Kyanrute

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,629
Tomato
AB's reactionary vote for Fran lol. That's pretty scummy, to throw a vote out of the contention like that. Even posting about the three-way tie after abstaining from influencing the same tie. And before turmoil's claim. A most entertaining series of events.

But then he argues against turmoil. If scum, this is a scum credibility gain play. Ehh. Hard to pull off impromptu.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
Even if we disagree on the effects of the modifier, the fact that we have a open vote indicates to me that we should discuss at some level the choice of the modifiers, at least more than the confusion that follows the already usual post from someone that, for someone reason, expects everyone to know the effects of the modifier before voting.
I agree with you on that. Preferably, I'd like it if everyone made a post for what modifier they would be voting on in the following night phase, and why they're choosing it.