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Setsune

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,649
damn people really hate the puppet guy. I've got about ten mins left in the review and most everything is reasonable so far. is he about to tell his followers to firebomb someone's house?

He goes on a rant about some of the creative leads having an ego and not listening to audiences. But otherwise I see a lot of "I only skipped to the end" and "He hates it because it's not TTYD entitled manbaby" which proves they didn't watch the video, because he's very complimentary of a lot of the game's aspects. Even feels like the story is handled well, using a different approach. He mostly spends his complaining time talking about the Battle Ring System, how some elements like the Thousand Fold Arms and Confetti are pretty meaningless additions, and that it's obvious that they're straining against the NPC design restrictions we know are very much a thing. These aren't unreasonable points, by a mile. He even starts off the review saying, "If you want a simple answer: Yes, you should probably go play it."
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,721
TL;DR is that he'd prefer they went all the way on new experiences - Nintendo says the games aren't RPGs anymore, but are forcing themselves into a box that very much looks like an RPG. He heavily disliked ring battles, which more or less completely hampered the game for him. Everything else he seemed fairly happy about - he would much rather the game had utilized the combat with the action combat from the overworld entirely.

That's basically how I felt about the game overall. The standard Ring Battles are absolute bottom tier trash (the boss battles are fantastic though!), but everything else surrounding the game is great. And that's exactly the direction that I think they're going to take with the next PM game...

They're gonna turn it into classic Zelda.

Take Origami King, remove the turn based battles and replace them with a fleshed out version of the Paper Macho combat mechanics and you're pretty close already!

And since Zelda has abandoned handcrafted dungeon/puzzle/world design in favour of the Open World formula? I'm very ok with this! We desperately need something to fill that gaping classic Action Adventure hole that BOTW left; Paper Mario could well fill that hole very nicely!
 

Marmoka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,028
Is it worth watching all this? I loved the game and I find not liking it respectable, we all have our own tasted in the end, but knowing him I have the feeling it will be a huge waste of time.
 

zer0_X

Alt-Account
Banned
Apr 23, 2020
790
Why the hell would anyone make a review that long? This is an opinion video on youtube, not a scientific thesis presentation
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
They're gonna turn it into classic Zelda.

Take Origami King, remove the turn based battles and replace them with a fleshed out version of the Paper Macho combat mechanics and you're pretty close already!

This is what they should do for sure, the turn-based stuff outside of the bosses just felt like an obligation rather than something they wanted to include. Just expand the hammer's repetoire and bring back partners as analogues for Zelda dungeon items and we're golden.
 

Laserbeam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,452
Canada
Paper Mario Is some serious business to people, huh?

I thought the game was fine and have zero desire to watch someone go on about it for an hour and a half.
 

JoeNut

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,482
UK
Does a review really need to be that long? I'd. Love to see stats on how many viewers actually stick with the entire thing
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,178
didnt some guy post a 7 hour review recently?

not a big fan of those. even noah caldwell can benefit from making shorter videos, and he is legit a good writer.
 

Jbone115

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,742
I used to watch most of Arlo's content a few years ago but I feel like something changed with his content recently that turns me off.

Also, PMOK has a great OST imo - criticism of the combat is fair, but don't be dissing the music!
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,541
Is it worth watching all this? I loved the game and I find not liking it respectable, we all have our own tasted in the end, but knowing him I have the feeling it will be a huge waste of time.
I'd say it's worth watching up until the last 20 minutes or so. It kinda goes off the rails at the end.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,620
Don't feel like watching this right now, but I really wish Bug Fables hasn't come out on switch the same year TOK came out. I feel like every discussion it gets brought up and torn apart in the war between oldschool PM purists and fans of the new games and it just doesn't deserve that. Like the devs deserve better than having their game associated with "sweaty TTYD purists" or whatever and having people turned away from it just because people they find annoying keep bringing it up.
 

IzzyRX

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
5,816
It's Arlo and Paper Mario, of course he's going all in. Gonna watch it later with some popcorn.
 

Gartooth

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,440
I dont like Arlo's brand of content but I checked out the video anyway because I was really curious how he would react given his history of Paper Mario videos in the past.

For the last 20 minutes of the video Arlo goes full conspiracy theories regarding Paper Mario devs deliberately choosing and knowing that they would rather make a game worse than include RPG elements, due to the ego of people at Nintendo. It feels like he has made it very targeted to Tanabe in particular given Tanabe's previous interviews, but with a whole "Im not going to make assumptions about people but...". (Though he also name drops Miyamoto and Risa Tabata here too)

Its really insane how he talks here and it makes it funny in hindsight how he put out a "Paper Mario talk isn't fun anymore because discussion is toxic" video since he is part of the problem.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,792
Peru
Its really insane how he talks and makes it funny in hindsight how he put out a "Paper Mario talk isn't fun anymore because discussion is toxic" video since he is part of the problem.
That video was pure BS because he started right away with a comparison to how TOK fans are like Pokemon Sword&Shield fans ("the series is not for us old fans anymore"), just to help his own case.

TOK is full of polish, great ideas, expansive environments and lots of content, its only sin was that it was different. Sword&Shield on the other hand, is just more of the same, but worse.

The extend he goes is unbelievable.
 

Shibata100

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,645
TTYD is great and we all know that but we have to accept there is a new generation that have no idea about that game or even that it exists. Paper Mario is now a game developed for this new generation of gamers and going by the sales it has achieved on switch it is hard to argue that its the wrong decision.

I would prefer TTYD style game but sales indicate that people like this new direction.
 

WestEgg

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
TTYD is great and we all know that but we have to accept there is a new generation that have no idea about that game or even that it exists. Paper Mario is now a game developed for this new generation of gamers and going by the sales it has achieved on switch it is hard to argue that its the wrong decision.

I would prefer TTYD style game but sales indicate that people like this new direction.
There's plenty of us out there though who loved TTYD and still thought Origami King was a great game though. The notion that someone can only enjoy it because they must be ignorant of how great TTYD was in comparison has always really irked me. That's not saying this is what you specifically are saying, just a sentiment I see a lot.
 

Jane

Member
Oct 17, 2018
1,263
TTYD is great and we all know that but we have to accept there is a new generation that have no idea about that game or even that it exists. Paper Mario is now a game developed for this new generation of gamers and going by the sales it has achieved on switch it is hard to argue that its the wrong decision.

I would prefer TTYD style game but sales indicate that people like this new direction.
I don't think sales prove much when the Switch has triple the install base. The original games had wide appeal, and if a new Paper Mario game came out with modern graphics but mechanics closer to TTYD, I don't think it would have sold any less.
 
Nov 2, 2017
6,811
Shibuya
TOK is full of polish, great ideas, expansive environments and lots of content, its only sin was that it was different. Sword&Shield on the other hand, is just more of the same, but worse.
I get what you're saying here in regards to Arlo's review, but I think it's disingenuous to say the only thing TOK got wrong was being different. Even fans of the game have very legitimate complaints about the battles, lack of levelling/player-driven character growth, bland character designs, etc. There's still a lot of work that could be done to make the new style of Paper Mario better without turning it completely into classic Paper Mario.

That said as a PM64 stan, all I want is classic Paper Mario, haha.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,541
TOK is full of polish, great ideas, expansive environments and lots of content, its only sin was that it was different.
To be fair to Arlo he agrres that it is full of polish, great environments, great characters, has great scenarios, and so on. And his issue isn;t that it's different, but rather that it's too similar. He would have liked it if the game ditched turn based combat altogether.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,792
Peru
I get what you're saying here in regards to Arlo's review, but I think it's disingenuous to say the only thing TOK got wrong was being different. Even fans of the game have very legitimate complaints about the battles, lack of levelling/player-driven character growth, bland character designs, etc. There's still a lot of work that could be done to make the new style of Paper Mario better without turning it completely into classic Paper Mario.

That said as a PM64 stan, all I want is classic Paper Mario, haha.

I understand people having problems with the battle system but I thought it was fine.

And design aside, TOK's characters are better than the ones in TTYD.

To be fair to Arlo he agrres that it is full of polish, great environments, great characters, has great scenarios, and so on. And his issue isn;t that it's different, but rather that it's too similar. He would have liked it if the game ditched turn based combat altogether.

I really don't know how someone could come up with that conclusion.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,541
I really don't know how someone could come up with that conclusion.
Because he flat out states he really likes the world, the characters (though he does wish they had more original designs and names), and the scenarios the game puts you in? He also pointed to the paper macho enemies saying that he would have liked it if all the combat in the game played out that way.

He just really dislikes the ring system and the way the coin economy ties into it and it ended up ruining the experience for him.
 

Windrunner

Sly
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,500
The vitriol aimed at Arlo in this topic is pretty pathetic. Calling him an "unhinged man child" among other things is wildly inappropriate.

I enjoy long form reviews and while Arlo is no matthewmatosis, this review was sincere and entertaining.
 

Marmoka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,028
Origami King is a great game but its combat system sucks. However turn based combat sucks as well imo. If we are supposed to praise TTYD more than TOK just because of its combat system, then probably TTYD may not be that good.

I have never played that game. I'd like to, I'm pretty sure it's great, that it has a great soundtrack, great story,... But I don't like turn-based combat. If you want to convince me that TTYD game is better than TOK, please do not even mention the combat system, try to convince me without using that topic and praising the rest of the game.

Sorry to say this, but I'm fed up of hardcore TTYD fans. I understand them not liking the TOK combat system, I didn't either, but that game is much more than that.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,541
I can understand disliking the new battle system.

Saying is too similar though? I can't.
Similar in the sense that it feels like the series is holding on to it's turn based roots when it doesn't really need to. If Sticker Star through Origami King had a mix of simple platforming for regular enemies ala Super Paper Mario and action encounters like the paper macho enemies I think they'd be better received by the group of people that really dislikes them in comparison to the original two/three (Though of course there'd still be some pining for a return to the old days).
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,792
Peru
Similar in the sense that it feels like the series is holding on to it's turn based roots when it doesn't really need to. If Sticker Star through Origami King had a mix of simple platforming for regular enemies ala Super Paper Mario and action encounters like the paper macho enemies I think they'd be better received by the group of people that really dislikes them in comparison to the original two/three (Though of course there'd still be some pining for a return to the old days).
I don't think so.

TTYD fans dislike even a masterpiece like Super Paper Mario.
 

Vampirolol

Member
Dec 13, 2017
5,822
Origami King is a great game but its combat system sucks. However turn based combat sucks as well imo. If we are supposed to praise TTYD more than TOK just because of its combat system, then probably TTYD may not be that good.

I have never played that game. I'd like to, I'm pretty sure it's great, that it has a great soundtrack, great story,... But I don't like turn-based combat. If you want to convince me that TTYD game is better than TOK, please do not even mention the combat system, try to convince me without using that topic and praising the rest of the game.

Sorry to say this, but I'm fed up of hardcore TTYD fans. I understand them not liking the TOK combat system, I didn't either, but that game is much more than that.
TTYD is a fantastic game, not a masterpiece since the combat itself can become boring, with a stupid difficulty spike during the final battle. I mean, it's good combat, miles better than Origami King, but the real strenght of the game is story/setting/music. I loved Origami King and still prefer TTYD for those reasons, I hope you can find a way to try it and see if it clicks.
 

Snarfington

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,929
This dude needs to calm down and let it go. He's got, like, a vendetta against modern Paper Mario and it's cringeworthy, and people are egging on this behaviour by giving him views and making jokes about it.
 

Marmoka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,028
TTYD is a fantastic game, not a masterpiece since the combat itself can become boring, with a stupid difficulty spike during the final battle. I mean, it's good combat, miles better than Origami King, but the real strenght of the game is story/setting/music. I loved Origami King and still prefer TTYD for those reasons, I hope you can find a way to try it and see if it clicks.
Thanks for the reply, this is one of the reasonings I was looking for. Many thanks. Hope to play it someday.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
I do like longform critiques but I really cannot stand Arlo. I don't have an issue with what he says in the video - though I have not watched it all - it's just his style that I dislike. Would I listen to an hour and a half review from Kermit the frog? no. I don't see the cross sectional appeal here. Yes Puppets appeal to children, but I would contend that this style of longform review does not.

So what's the audience here? Clearly he has one, but the rest of his videos are far shorter so I'd suspect that in general, his videos are for younger people willing to provide less of their attention for shorter periods of time

As is, more than anything I can't tolerate the voice. I just find it so abrasive, and there's no way I could listen to it for 90 minutes. His thoughts on Paper Mario seems fair enough, though I think to say he gets no joy out of the puzzles seems to miss the point. His analysis of the battle system is fair, but the fact that he doesn't get any entertainment out of the puzzle solving is both very subjective and would really harm his experience of the overall game.
 

CurseVox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,356
Massachusetts (USA)
I love how passionate of a Nintendo fan Arlo is. Honestly it brings me joy. Hah. These ridiculously long analysis videos are definitely extreme, but I'm glad he does them. His Zelda one was cray!
 

Jane

Member
Oct 17, 2018
1,263
I don't think so.

TTYD fans dislike even a masterpiece like Super Paper Mario.
I actually like SPM a lot. I've finished it probably three times, I go back to the soundtrack every so often, and I've defended it when people say it sucks. But man, it is not as good as TTYD. Not even close. I'm sorry, that's just my opinion, lol. And I played it when I was 10 so it's got nothing to do with nostalgia bias or anything like that.
 

WestEgg

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
Heh, this is probably how fans of The Last Jedi felt when the Plinkett review came out.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
Hmm people here REALLY hate this Cookie Monster, huh? I think Arlo is ok, I like some of his stuff and don't really care for some of his other stuff but some people in this thread seem to absolutely abhor him.

Why the hell would anyone make a review that long? This is an opinion video on youtube, not a scientific thesis presentation
Does a review really need to be that long? I'd. Love to see stats on how many viewers actually stick with the entire thing
Why not? You don't have to watch it if you don't want to. Long review videos like this are common on YouTube. Some channels exclusively do very long reviews or retrospectives on games. Personally, these are great to do work to imo. It's like listening to a podcast almost. You are never meant to be watching these videos to see if you should buy a game or not imo.
 

Anton

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
671
Arlo absolutely deserves the criticisms he's getting in this thread and elsewhere, he crossed a line with his rhetoric in the video with the vitriol towards the developers and mildly conspiratorial points he makes, implying that the developers know that they're making the game bad on purpose to spite people like him is just so ridiculous and insulting to the developers, why anyone would go to bat for him after this is beyond me.
 

The Real Abed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,723
Pennsylvania
Idk how people post these super long reviews. Editing that must take some serious time. But I guess this is their job, so it's worth it. Adding this to my list. Thanks op!
Probably why it took so long to arrive. The game's been out for a while.
I get the feeling he's a little too attached to the old and doesn't embrace the new direction with Paper Mario
To be honest, I don't want the new direction. It's like a totally new series now. I guess I'm more of a traditional turn-based stats and numbers era RPG player.
That's TTYD fans in a nutshell
TTYD is a perfect RPG if you ask me. I'm happy it exists and sad it could never exist again. They'd probably never even release a HD version because there's so much in it Nintendo would never do now. Watching Woolie's play through beings a lot of it to light. There's some dark shit in there that could only have happened in 2005. The game opens with a noose in the center of town. There's a whole chapter where people get turned into pigs and other characters talk about how they might have to eat one to survive. I love the game. It's so dark and not Nintendo's current "family friendly" style.

I love Arlo but it's time to let go. Nintendo wont return to TTYD style RPGs again. Either enjoy the new direction or enjoy what you already have knowing it can't be done again. Plus he loved Bug Fables which is pretty much the Mario RPG style game he wanted. And I am totally for some reason reading my own post in his voice.
 

Kingpin Rogers

HILF
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,459
I do like longform critiques but I really cannot stand Arlo. I don't have an issue with what he says in the video - though I have not watched it all - it's just his style that I dislike. Would I listen to an hour and a half review from Kermit the frog? no. I don't see the cross sectional appeal here. Yes Puppets appeal to children, but I would contend that this style of longform review does not.

So what's the audience here? Clearly he has one, but the rest of his videos are far shorter so I'd suspect that in general, his videos are for younger people willing to provide less of their attention for shorter periods of time

As is, more than anything I can't tolerate the voice. I just find it so abrasive, and there's no way I could listen to it for 90 minutes. His thoughts on Paper Mario seems fair enough, though I think to say he gets no joy out of the puzzles seems to miss the point. His analysis of the battle system is fair, but the fact that he doesn't get any entertainment out of the puzzle solving is both very subjective and would really harm his experience of the overall game.
I wouldn't say he targets Children in particular. He used the puppet as a gimmick to get attention from Nintendo fans in general, I know that's why I clicked on his videos at first just. He actually rarely uses the puppet nowadays which funnily is one reason why I've stopped watching him as much, his channel is very much becoming Nintendo fan discusses Nintendo fans with the rare appearance of the puppet usually at the intro or end of a video. Most of his fans do seem to like his long form videos though as his most popular videos are the ones that go on for longer than 30 mins or so.
 

Alexhex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,881
Canada
His overreactions and weirdly depressive antics kinda wore on me, and his dismissal to ever look beyond his own blinders (He didn't like the Terry reveal, and made a conspiracy that Nintendo knew that no one likes/knows Terry so thats why they announced more DLC spots) is such a downer.
uhm wtf why does anyone take this weirdo seriously
 

WestEgg

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
I wouldn't say he targets Children in particular. He used the puppet as a gimmick to get attention from Nintendo fans in general
Yep, his target is definitely "everyone", or more specifically Nintendo nostalgic millennials. He even made a video about how he's not specifically for children because of the Children's YouTube advertising stuff going on a while back. Dude just likes him some Muppets and saw a chance to stand out, and it's worked out pretty well for him.
 

Astral

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
28,115
His overreactions and weirdly depressive antics kinda wore on me, and his dismissal to ever look beyond his own blinders (He didn't like the Terry reveal, and made a conspiracy that Nintendo knew that no one likes/knows Terry so thats why they announced more DLC spots) is such a downer.
God what an annoying take. "No one knows him!" Motherfucker this is a fighting game. I'd say the chances that fighting game fans play Smash and have at least heard about Terry. I've never played King of Fighters or Fatal Fury in my life and yet I know who he is. Kinda off topic but the Terry reveal drama was so dumb.
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
I personally couldn't care less that he doesn't love the new Paper Mario. My issue with Arlo has always been that his tastes are super narrow and I just don't find all that much value in the viewpoints of someone with such limited taste. If people appreciate what he brings to the table though, that's great. I hold no ill will towards him whatsoever.
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,227
I wouldn't say he targets Children in particular. He used the puppet as a gimmick to get attention from Nintendo fans in general, I know that's why I clicked on his videos at first just. He actually rarely uses the puppet nowadays which funnily is one reason why I've stopped watching him as much, his channel is very much becoming Nintendo fan discusses Nintendo fans with the rare appearance of the puppet usually at the intro or end of a video. Most of his fans do seem to like his long form videos though as his most popular videos are the ones that go on for longer than 30 mins or so.
I really wish Arlo did more skits. Those utilized his puppet for the whole video and gave his channel an identity.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,497
Yeah, not a fan. Its just a guy and his opinion, if I had time to listen to rants that lasted an hour I'd be playing the games instead. What makes him so special?