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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,763
Sure, though it needs to be presented in the proper context and at an age where it can actually be understood. Teachers can also be racists and advance racist ideas like anyone else.
Absolutely but that should be a problem that the Education National organization deal internally though.
There is absolutely no need to make a widesweeping law like that.

So yeah about the id for French people?
It's called NIR and since 2010 is given at birth,

Not sure what we can do to fight this and all the other authoritarian bullshit that's happened in the past few months. Kinda hard to have an efficient protest in the middle of a pandemic/lockdown

Scared about 2022 too, the left needs to wake up because rn we are set for Macron vs Le Pen 2.0 and that's definitely not a good thing

Don't worry Melenchon is doing his best for that to happen.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Not sure what we can do to fight this and all the other authoritarian bullshit that's happened in the past few months. Kinda hard to have an efficient protest in the middle of a pandemic/lockdown

Scared about 2022 too, the left needs to wake up because rn we are set for Macron vs Le Pen 2.0 and that's definitely not a good thing
Both vying to profit from the Islamaphobia industry which unfortunately is still quite powerful.
 

Arilian

Member
Oct 29, 2020
2,347
Doesn't France already has an identity card system, and thus a way to identify all people?
It can take a couple of year to have one ID card and I don't think our ID number is unique to us but to our card. What is unique to us is our social security number, assigned at birth. Their is not apparent link between my ID card number and my social security number.

The number we are speaking about is a number used by the education system in France: it was introduced in 1995, for all people passing the baccalauréat at the end of high-school and, since 2009, is used by all kind of schools (from the very first school whose name I don't know in english, to highschool) and universities to identify students. Around 2% of student don't have one at the moment, either because they are homeschooled or they are going to school with no contract with the state. They are sources (in French) about it in my biggest message on page 5.

Using multiples numbers may be a way to prevent linking multiples databases but it's just my guess.
checking my outdated one I'm pretty sure that's the ID card number too.
My outdated ID card number begin with a 9 while a social security could only begin with a 1 or 2.
 
Last edited:

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,757
Its right there, integration cannot be enforced, it doesn't work, that's subjugation. It can only be encouraged. France is making this an exclusive directive upon Muslims, once again being shown as a threat to society, to security, to democracy, the playbook of facists upon minorities we've seen throughout history.
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.

You are literally saying that making kids go to school is fascist.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.

You are literally saying that making kids go to school is fascist.
Not what I'm saying at all. Your naive to assume this has got to do with school enforcement. Put more broadly, it's policy makers once again basing their theories on tropes that produces discriminatory outcomes. Implying 6 million people aren't capable of integrating, that theyre intrinsically dangerous, thier kids aren't attending schools, it's his racist stereotyping which is influencing his new proposed measures to limit freedoms and target minority communities. We all know his new policies isn't going to be applied universally and will be used to create further inequalities for Muslims families, thier kids will be targeted under pretence that it's the law, rather them truthfully being seen as a risk, it further cements the racism that prevails within the framework that France has established.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
This is a joke.

Why does a whole community have to suffer because of a small minority of people.

Instead of trying to deal with the issue what they are doing is painting the whole Muslim community as a problem.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,763
Concerning homeschooling


M. Jean-Michel Blanquer, ministre. - On ne peut pas être dans une liberté absolue, sans cadre. Cette liberté d'instruction à domicile a un fondement constitutionnel puissant mais qui doit s'équilibrer avec d'autres principes, notamment les droits de l'enfant. C'est pourquoi j'ai pu dire à l'Assemblée nationale et au Sénat qu'il fallait encadrer davantage, et c'est ce que nous avons fait. À l'heure actuelle, je pense qu'il faut appliquer les règles que nous avons établies dans la loi de 2019. La mise en oeuvre en débute ; nous sommes en phase ascendante, mais l'objectif de 100 % de contrôles réalisés n'a été atteint ni à cette coopération bien comprise avec les familles ; il y a donc encore des progrès concrets à faire. Mais sur le plan juridique, je crois que nous sommes parvenus à un bon équilibre.

quick google translate come on I already had to sift through the senate website it's punishment enough said:
Mr. Jean-Michel Blanquer, Minister. - We cannot be in absolute freedom, without a framework. This freedom of home education has a strong constitutional basis, but which must be balanced with other principles, in particular the rights of the child. This is why I was able to tell the National Assembly and the Senate that there was a need for more supervision, and that is what we did. Right now, I think we have to apply the rules that we set in the 2019 law. Implementation is starting; we are in the ascending phase, but the objective of 100% of the controls carried out has not been reached nor to this well understood cooperation with the families; there is therefore still concrete progress to be made. But legally speaking, I believe we have struck a good balance.

So basically either Macron is full of shit or his minister is if they plan on making homeschooling illegal.
The issue being that the only statistic we have in France for motivation of homeschooling is from the US where 30% do that for religious reasons....which is entirely irrelevant to the current situation in France.
 

Arilian

Member
Oct 29, 2020
2,347
Better numbers from a better source: 2017
Mediapart cites number from 2020 and said this year, more than 50 000 children are homeschooled (most of them, 80 %, children in elementary schools) :
À l'heure actuelle, plus de 50 000 enfants suivent l'instruction à domicile (80 % dans le primaire), « un chiffre qui augmente chaque année », s'était encore alarmé le chef de l'État lors de son discours des Mureaux. Le ministère de l'éducation nationale indique qu'ils étaient 41 000 en 2019 et 30 à 35 000 en 2017. Pourtant, à bien y regarder, cela reste microscopique au regard des 12 millions d'élèves (0,5 %).
Source: https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/fr...e-que-prevoit-le-projet-de-loi?page_article=2
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,763
Mediapart cites number from 2020 and said this year, more than 50 000 children are homeschooled (most of them, 80 %, children in elementary schools) :

Source: https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/fr...e-que-prevoit-le-projet-de-loi?page_article=2
article behind a paywall.
Macron is saying this, but it would be inline with projections.
It IS a fast growing trend...and as the education minister said earlier, a lot of them are checked regularly. Not all of them like he would want to but it's definitely under control.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,855
Chicago, IL
User banned (1 week): inflammatory point of comparison
Let all swap "France" for "China" and "Mulisms" for "Uighur Muslims" and see how some of you sound now.
The "education camps" they have now literally started as enforced school attendance to strengthen national identity in Uyghur and slowly morph into what it is now after community push backs.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,280
Scared about 2022 too, the left needs to wake up because rn we are set for Macron vs Le Pen 2.0 and that's definitely not a good thing
As long as the left decries everyone wanting curbs on radicalism as nazis they will never get in a position to win something on this topic. Fortunately some high ranking figures in the german left started to realize that and want a discussion to solve the issue of radicalism from a leftist point of view.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
Let all swap "France" for "China" and "Mulisms" for "Uighur Muslims" and see how some of you sound now.
The "education camps" they have now literally started as enforced school attendance to strengthen national identity in Uyghur and slowly morph into what it is now after community push backs.

"In the camps, Uyghurs are forced to undergo psychological indoctrination programs as well as physical torture, including waterboarding and sexual abuse."

pittnews.com

‘They kill us here’: Survivor of Uyghur concentration camps recounts torture - The Pitt News

Tursun shared her story during a virtual event hosted by Pitt’s centers for Governance and Markets and Russian, East European and Eurasian...

...that's not happening in French schools. They're learning math and science and other topics.

Additionally, if it were bad why are all children (not just Muslim children) force to attend?
 

Lady Murasaki

Scary Shiny Glasses
Member
Oct 25, 2017
680
As a homeschooled Protestant Christian living in the U.S., there are sarcastic comments I could make about said implication that would get me very very banned.

But honestly this is so thoroughly terrifying and authoritarian that I'm not even really in a joking mood regardless. I may live in an absolute hellhole of a country with an utterly ludicrous obsession with patriotism that I by and large don't share, but this is one of the few things that makes me really glad to have some good ol' American soil to clutch like a security blanket.


Which I also object to on a more general basis. I was homeschooled because I'm on the autistic spectrum, and teachers repeatedly treated me poorly during my preschool and kindergarten years for not acting neurotypical enough. What accommodations is the public education system there making for people like me? What makes them think that educating kids in a public setting will make kids less likely to be radicalized? What makes them think that parents are somehow inherently not qualified to raise their own children? You know, like say. . .they nearly always did prior to like 200 years or so ago?

There's a stereotype that Christian families raising their kids at home somehow means they're in a cult that leaves me offended every time I'm forced to read it. Not in the least because I know from my own personal experience that it's just wrong. This is just that but applied to Muslim families, and I'm equally offended at the exact same assertion being flung at them. So they might go through some study booklets on the Quran between their math and science lessons. Whoop-a-dee-frickin'-do. I did some Jesus books between mine and I not only ranked in the top 10% on the ACTs, I'm more than happy to openly question the moral sanctity of the Christian community.

But hey, authoritarianism is cute and trendy, amirite?

Imagine freaking criminalizing raising your own kids. Apparently France doesn't have to!

As a Latina, bisexual woman raised by a family that still follows an Evangelical Christian (fundamentalist) church (exported here by fundamentalist/colonizing American missionaries, thanks a lot, US) I'm really fucking glad homeschooling isn't allowed in my country. If it was, by now I'd probably be an unhappy housewife with 4 children married with an abusive mysoginist husband who considered me a subhuman being backed by the very church I grew up in, instead of a free working woman almost getting my bachelor's degree. My education wasn't the best but it allowed me to free myself in a way it wouldn't be possible if I had been homeschooled, by letting me access the secular world the church tried very hard to isolate the young members from. I won't say all schools are amazing and I respect your experience but don't talk like homeschooling is no big deal when it's entertwined with extreme forms of religion. That just isn't true and children that might be growing up in conditions like the ones I did should have the chance I had, no matter the religion, in the same way children in the spectrum should have the chance to flourish being educated with their needs and differences in mind as well.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
17,906
As long as the left decries everyone wanting curbs on radicalism as nazis they will never get in a position to win something on this topic. Fortunately some high ranking figures in the german left started to realize that and want a discussion to solve the issue of radicalism from a leftist point of view.

Putting parents in jail for their children not going to school will further radicalization, it won't curb it.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,972
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory Joke Around Child Abuse
Will students get bonus credit for seducing their teacher?
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
You don't fight extremism with persecution. That's how you create more extremists.
Education is one of the best tools to prevent extremism though. So ensuring kids are schooled appropriately and not indoctrinated is a pretty reasonable step in my opinion. Tons of countries give kids (and the rest of its people) IDs for a variety of reasons from identification to healthcare to education, so this is not really shocking news.
 

civet

Member
Jul 6, 2019
460
France
I don't know if being given a tracking number is useful as I would suppose that children who don't attend school are well identified but I guess that's not the case if the government is thinking about it. Anyway, it's a measure for every single kids, so as it is, it sounds like a convincing way to make sure that you don't lose tracks of some children. The very large majority go to school anyway and every kids eagerly awaits the day they can start school and make new friends so this really concerns a very small amount of person.

I'm not really in favor for homeschooling either. It certainly is necessary in some situations, say you're parents are travelling artists for example. Not discrediting anybody but it's surely really difficult to give a full week teaching as a parent and only a minority of people would be dispense quality teaching in every single topic like school can do, let alone managing to find 7 hours a day to teach properly as well.
 

Bleu

Banned
Sep 21, 2018
1,599
Let all swap "France" for "China" and "Mulisms" for "Uighur Muslims" and see how some of you sound now.
The "education camps" they have now literally started as enforced school attendance to strengthen national identity in Uyghur and slowly morph into what it is now after community push backs.
takesobadyougotosleep.gif
 

nekomix

Member
Oct 30, 2017
472
Let all swap "France" for "China" and "Mulisms" for "Uighur Muslims" and see how some of you sound now.
The "education camps" they have now literally started as enforced school attendance to strengthen national identity in Uyghur and slowly morph into what it is now after community push backs.

I came back to see the new reactions (and I think some of them hilarious) but this one takes the cake !
Seriously, where does it talk about education camps? So public schools and private schools under contract with the state attended by 12+ million children in France are "education camps" ?! Welp, there are shitty people everywhere...
 

ronpontelle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,645
We homeschool our son in France because the state thinks it's good to force him in to school for 28 hours a week when he's not even three. Without allowing us to ease him in to it, so had to drop him at the gates. With all teachers wearing masks.

Now this?

We're pretty tolerant and strong, and understand that we've chosen to make a home in a foreign country, but when going back to the UK, in it's current fucked up post Brexit foot shooting Tory twat ruled state, looks like a better option then you know something's wrong.

Think we're done with France as soon as we can get our shit together to get back to the UK and try and salvage some kind of life there.

I know lots of British and American homeschoolers from Facebook groups, and this is a line in the sand.

Macron is just a cunt. Everything that's wrong with modern 'liberal' politics.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,206
Let all swap "France" for "China" and "Mulisms" for "Uighur Muslims" and see how some of you sound now.
The "education camps" they have now literally started as enforced school attendance to strengthen national identity in Uyghur and slowly morph into what it is now after community push backs.
Nah. This is more like people defending Trump's travel ban by saying "it's not just Muslim countries. Look! North Korea is on the list!"
 

Abdullahi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18
So? That makes him god whose picture should never be drawn?
MLK stood for human rights, for equal rights. He fought for them. He was killed for them. On the other hand, religion and word of god is a tool for human oppression. As a woman, I am a second class citizen in this world and my basic human rights are constantly taken away, because all the gods say so. To hell with that shit.

I have every right to mock and criticize Muhammed for all the stupid, discriminatory shit he supposedly said. .
Keyword supposedly. Please look up actual history before making such grand claims about someone or something.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Will students get bonus credit for seducing their teacher?
The framing of this is fucked up. Ik you are joking about Macron and his wife, but he didn't seduce anyone, she pursued him in a predatory fashion. Statements like this place agency on the victim that they don't have and normalize abuse, especially when we are talking about male victims and female perpetrators. Please don't make jokes like this.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
"In the camps, Uyghurs are forced to undergo psychological indoctrination programs as well as physical torture, including waterboarding and sexual abuse."

pittnews.com

‘They kill us here’: Survivor of Uyghur concentration camps recounts torture - The Pitt News

Tursun shared her story during a virtual event hosted by Pitt’s centers for Governance and Markets and Russian, East European and Eurasian...

...that's not happening in French schools. They're learning math and science and other topics.

Additionally, if it were bad why are all children (not just Muslim children) force to attend?
Bold statement of you to say that sexual abuse is not happening in French schools, I'm sure a cursory google of French language media on the topic would prove that abundantly false.
 

Teddy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,288
From actually looking at the policies they don't seem that bad considering they affect everyone.

Issuing a number to children seems like standard practise in France anyway from what Arilian has said too so it only seems to be affecting about very small number of people. Having people integrated in society is a good thing, you don't want lots of disenfranchised young people to get radicalised.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,763
Bold statement of you to say that sexual abuse is not happening in French schools, I'm sure a cursory google of French language media on the topic would prove that abundantly false.
It's absolutely not systemic and the hiearchy doesn't protect the offenders when caught.
It's not the Catholic church.
And waterboarding?
If you knew the amount of shit teachers get for even thinking of disciplining a student...
Absolutely bonkers to even think that teacher could torture students.
 

Firmus_Anguis

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,107
Some of the takes in this thread... Fucking yikes.

This will do nothing but help extremists spread their propaganda. I'm afraid it'll have the opposite effect.
 

Truant

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,758
Bold statement of you to say that sexual abuse is not happening in French schools, I'm sure a cursory google of French language media on the topic would prove that abundantly false.

As long as there is men, there is abuse. That doesn't mean systematic abuse that's effectively enabled by authorities looking the other way, like certain other organizations.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,763
I didn't make a comparison to the church in the first place.
There is however no system sexual assault issues in French schools and I can tell you that whatever is happening in China would be considered gross behavior even by shitty XVIIth century standard where anything went then.
Like WTF do you think happens in French schools?

For the record, Marquis de Sade isn't a manual used by teachers in France like you seem to imply.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
As long as there is men, there is abuse. That doesn't mean systematic abuse that's effectively enabled by authorities looking the other way, like certain other organizations.
First of all, it's not just men. The sexual abuse of girls and boys by women is a significant problem in the education field, at least here in the US. You are ignoring a wide swath of victims by engaging in that rhetoric.

I hope that it's not systemic in the French school system but I know it is here in the US and other western countries so forgive me for being doubtful.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,199
Bold statement of you to say that sexual abuse is not happening in French schools, I'm sure a cursory google of French language media on the topic would prove that abundantly false.
That doesn't make them concentration camps.
That initial analogy was really bad and doesn't deserve any kind of defense unless we want to see it to its end and compare teachers to camp guards or something.

Honestly, the discourse in these threads is fucking abysmal. I'm french, I'm not white, I'm not Christian, I have some pretty extensive firsthand experience of how widespread and systemic racism is here, and the current government is terrible, but that Uighur analogy, that person comparing Muhammad to MLK? This isn't it, this is just really dumb.

At least this time we did get some fucking assholes victim blaming a teacher who was beheaded.
 

svacina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,439
Well, for some reason I thought you were the person who originally come up with the briliant uighur comparison (mostly because I didn't check and couldn't imagine why would a thrid party interject with such a stupid line) and was adivising you to change course. But fair enough, the original wasn't you, so it was just a stupid line not a stupid doubling down line. My apologies, you don't have to dig at all.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Because the poster - not the one quoted but the one I'm referring to and who was in the quote of the post I quoted - was saying these kids were being reeducated. The problematic reeducating in this case being math and science, and thus math and science eliminating the culture of the person now forced to go to school to learn these.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
That doesn't make them concentration camps.
That initial analogy was really bad and doesn't deserve any kind of defense unless we want to see it to its end and compare teachers to camp guards or something.

Honestly, the discourse in these threads is fucking abysmal. I'm french, I'm not white, I'm not Christian, I have some pretty extensive firsthand experience of how widespread and systemic racism is here, and the current government is terrible, but that Uighur analogy, that person comparing Muhammad to MLK? This isn't it, this is just really dumb.

At least this time we did get some fucking assholes victim blaming a teacher who was beheaded.
Yeah well I didn't make that comparison, I was responding to someone who said that sexual abuse doesn't happen in French schools which I'm quite sure is a false statement.
Well, for some reason I thought you were the person who originally come up with the briliant uighur comparison (mostly because I didn't check and couldn't imagine why would a thrid party interject with such a stupid line) and was adivising you to change course. But fair enough, the original wasn't you, so it was just a stupid line not a stupid doubling down line. My apologies.
It's not stupid, pretty much every western developed country has a problem with sexual abuse and abuse of power in the school system, maybe France is an anomaly but I doubt it.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,763
It's not stupid, pretty much every western developed country has a problem with sexual abuse and abuse of power in the school system, maybe France is an anomaly but I doubt it.
It absolutely isn't an exception but it's taken like a serious issue like it should.
The hiearchy isn't encouraging teachers to molest and torture students like it's China oppressing a minority.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,081
Because the poster - not the one quoted but the one I'm referring to - was saying these kids were being reeducated. The problematic reeducating in this case being math and science.

No I know, that comparison was pretty extreme.

I've just noticed a lot of Islamaphobia in this forum so even though I'm not Muslim I take note when there appear to be prejudicial comments. I wasn't sure about yours, so that's why I asked. I still don't get the comparison but nevermind, it's not a big deal.
 

svacina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,439
It's not stupid, pretty much every western developed country has a problem with sexual abuse and abuse of power in the school system, maybe France is an anomaly but I doubt it.
Ofc they do, sad as it is. That doesn't make any European country's school system the equivalent of the Uighur re-education camps. Not even remotely.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
It absolutely isn't an exception but it's taken like a serious issue like it should.
The hiearchy isn't encouraging teachers to molest and torture students like it's China oppressing a minority.
No where did I claim that was the case, don't put that on me. I was responding to someone making the statement that it doesn't happen in French schools.

You literally have people in this thread making rape jokes about teacher abuse so it's not like this is coming out of nowhere either.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,199
Yeah well I didn't make that comparison, I was responding to someone who said that sexual abuse doesn't happen in French schools which I'm quite sure is a false statement.
I guess that's kind of my point: these analogies are so bad and tenuous in the first place, that 20 posts later, people are arguing the finer point of these bad comparisons, everyone has lost the plot, when the initial take didn't deserve any kind of air in the first place.