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SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,288
São Paulo - Brazil
A while back I finally decided to play Dark Forces to the end... and I loved it:

www.resetera.com

R/LTTP: Star Wars: Dark Forces - This is a special FPS. Also, goddamn you EA!

Dark Forces was probably among the first games I ever played. I remember in box of the PC I had home there were the image of a few games that were included (or something like that) and Dark Forces was one of them. I also remember thinking/hoping that I was playing with the imperial trooper...

So recently I got the entire series: Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight, Mysteries of the Sith, Jedi Oucast and Jedi Academy. I'll only be talking about the first three since the last one is more of a spin off.

Dark Forces 2 and Mysteries of the Sith: After Dark Forces I had high expectations for this. There are two main changes compared to the prequel: now the game is fully 3d and you have a lightsaber and Jedi powers... because reasons. A quick note, it was really weird how this happened, suddenly you get a lightsaber and start using the force, Kyle Katarn's development in the ways of the Jedi is even worse than Rey (Skywalker I guess). But the good news is that it was really fun to use both the lasersword and the force, and it opened new ways to explore the game. I particularly liked using pull to, well, pull weapons from the enemies than strike them while they run around defenseless. Some powers were less interesting, and for some reason I got the darkside ending and became the new emperor. The bad news is that the level design, which was the best aspect of Dark Forces, isn't as great here. Mysteries of the Sith was more of the same, but with a better use of force powers, and with a female lead, which is always great in an FPS (I also really like its ending).

Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast: I wanted to play this game for a long time. I've heard very good things about it, even that it's the best Star Wars game ever, which would mean being better than KoTOR, and that's saying something. Having played it, I firmily believe it's not even close, but it does have its merits. Dark Forces 2 was a very early 3d game, while its sequel feel much more modern. Its gunplay is weaker though, but lightsaber combat and force powers are better. One of my issues with this game is that it has some really weak moments. There was a segment for example were you pilot a AT-ST, but it's awful because you can't aim properly as the vehicle is in front of the crosshair. Also there are swamp levels that... urgh. Or right after when you get your lightsaber, the mission that follows is basically a level where you can't use it because you have to deal with a multitude of snipers.

And on that track, my main issue with both (three) games, is that there is a inner conflict to them that holds them back. They are FPS, so you will be using a lot of guns. But they are also a third person adventure game where you play as a Jedi (when you change your weapon to a lightsaber the camera changes, you can change it back, but clearly the game was designed with the third person perspective in mind for the Jedi moments). And so, the game don't fully develop neither aspect. It can be extremely fun to play using the force powers, but then you get in an area that clearly was meant for you to use a gun and the game implode. Moreover, melee combat feels weird in all three games and mostly my duels were just me running randomly around hoping to strike the enemy without being stroke in return. Jedi Outcast had the best lightsaber system, but still, I feel, not as great as it could be if the game decided to fully dedicate itself to that type of combat.

Overall, I did enjoy my time with them, but I can't say they were memorable. One moment here and there yes, but just those moments.
 

Borman

Digital Games Curator at The Strong Museum
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
843
Multiplayer really helped Jedi Outcast shine even more. There wasn't anything like either mode at the time honestly, but we had so much fun having duels online.
 

Exit Music

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,082
Turning on model dismemberment for Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy in the dev console really make them the best lightsaber combat in any Star Wars game.
 

TheDave545

Member
Nov 4, 2017
698
Jedi Knight and Jedi Outcast were products of their time, as was KotoR, but KotoR aged better than the other two.

At the time nothing came close to these two games, great story, great combat, everything you wanted from a Star Wars game.
 

affeinvasion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,949
I think playing it immediately after the first is coloring your views of these games. The original Dark Forces is a pure FPS. The second and third games could essentially be a different series, but they decided to keep the same character for some reason (Kyle doesn't even look the same!). Jedi Knight games really should be seen as stand-alone 3rd person lightsaber/force power games more than as direct sequels to the original Dark Forces game. The years in between the original and Jedi Knight coming out, I think helped separate them in the minds of a lot of players.

Edit: I should be more clear with that last point. Jedi Knight feels more like a true hybrid as it was only a couple of years after the first Dark Forces. The lightsaber and force power stuff was what people really loved about that game and so they doubled down on that for Jedi Knight II and that was a good 5 years after the first Jedi Knight game came out. By that time it had been seven years since the first Dark Forces came out and that direction was mostly forgotten.
 

c0Zm1c

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,202
Multiplayer really helped Jedi Outcast shine even more.
The same for Dark Forces 2/Mysteries of the Sith too really. They had a strong modding community back in the day and user-made content was very popular among online players. I remember Jedi High School and Empire Nightclub being very popular maps.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,288
São Paulo - Brazil
I think playing it immediately after the first is coloring your views of these games. The original Dark Forces is a pure FPS. The second and third games could essentially be a different series, but they decided to keep the same character for some reason (Kyle doesn't even look the same!). Jedi Knight games really should be seen as stand-alone 3rd person lightsaber/force power games more than as direct sequels to the original Dark Forces game. The years in between the original and Jedi Knight coming out, I think helped separate them in the minds of a lot of players.

Edit: I should be more clear with that last point. Jedi Knight feels more like a true hybrid as it was only a couple of years after the first Dark Forces. The lightsaber and force power stuff was what people really loved about that game and so they doubled down on that for Jedi Knight II and that was a good 5 years after the first Jedi Knight game came out. By that time it had been seven years since the first Dark Forces came out and that direction was mostly forgotten.

But the games themselves didn't abandon those FPS elements. Indeed, both Jedi Knight games begin with you without any force powers or even a lightsaber. It just you your guns and the enemies. I have no problem that they moved towards this Jedi style game, in fact, I'm arguing the opposite. The FPS elements, especially in Jedi Outcast, feels more like a shackle than anything. They were not forgotten, they still impact virtually all moments of the games. You could be swining your sword in Jedi Outcast and having fun blasting enemies with the force and suddently there would be an enemy in a tower miles away and you would have to take your sniper out to deal with them.
 

Jazar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,475
South Florida
I think there was a mod or mode that had a gauntlet of duals with Prodigy's Smack my Bitch Up playing. So fun.

I do remember the sniper alley after getting jedi powers it was painful.
 
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Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,565
But the games themselves didn't abandon those FPS elements. Indeed, both Jedi Knight games begin with you without any force powers or even a lightsaber. It just you your guns and the enemies. I have no problem that they moved towards this Jedi style game, in fact, I'm arguing the opposite. The FPS elements, especially in Jedi Outcast, feels more like a shackle than anything. They were not forgotten, they still impact virtually all moments of the games. You could be swining your sword in Jedi Outcast and having fun blasting enemies with the force and suddently there would be an enemy in a tower miles away and you would have to take your sniper out to deal with them.
I mean, it was still the Star Wars fps series even by the time Academy came out as a full game based around mutliplayer lightsaber battles (...more or less), and the force powers and saber battles were third person. I never saw the problem with having to bring up a blaster to occasionally solve an issue Kyle's jedi training couldn't solve. It's internally consistent with his character arc, I feel. You can also use the saber in first person and powers if you wanted. It's clearly not as polished as the third person saber fighting, but it can be done if one wanted to stick with a specific perspective.
 
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OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,288
São Paulo - Brazil
I mean, it was still the Star Wars fps series even by the time Academy came out as a full game based around mutliplayer lightsaber battles (...more or less), and the force powers and saber battles were third person. I never saw the problem with having to bring up a blaster to occasionally solve an issue Kyle's jedi training couldn't solve. It's internally consistent with his character arc, I feel. You can also use the saber in first person and powers if you wanted. It's clearly not as polished as the third person saber fighting, but it can be done if one wanted to stick with a specific perspective.

I don't think it was a problem all the time, but I also think both aspects were somehow limited by having to accomodate the other. To put in another way, I think there was a good chance they would better games if they either want on full FPS or full Jedi game. Or at least make them considerably more independent.

For example, one area that I really liked in Jedi Outcast was the Jedi temple, when you get your powers back. The way you learn your powers and use them to traverse the environment and solve puzzles was very well designed, but the rest of the game was a step back compared to it. There were still force oriented puzzles, but they never really got the work I think they should have had.
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,696
Thailand
I think the problem is they didn't give full jedi power ability after get a lightsaber.

I use console cheat to get max all power and go blast.
 

joe1138

Member
Oct 28, 2017
926
I LOVED Dark Forces 2 as a kid. Played the shit out of it. Still have fond memories of time spent playing that thing through the MS Gaming Zone.

I didn't care much about the story. The first Dark Forces was more palatable in that regard.
 

Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,565
I don't think it was a problem all the time, but I also think both aspects were somehow limited by having to accomodate the other. To put in another way, I think there was a good chance they would better games if they either want on full FPS or full Jedi game. Or at least make them considerably more independent.

For example, one area that I really liked in Jedi Outcast was the Jedi temple, when you get your powers back. The way you learn your powers and use them to traverse the environment and solve puzzles was very well designed, but the rest of the game was a step back compared to it. There were still force oriented puzzles, but they never really got the work I think they should have had.
That dichotomy is it's biggest drawback and at times it's biggest appeal. (FPS with lightsabers!). I'm glad the games are what they are, but I'd love to see where non-EA games take the idea of a shooter with lightsabers (or just a first person lightsaber game).
 

Tagyhag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,483
I can understand the issue of FPS pretty much getting abandoned once the lightsaber comes into play. I still had a blast with the game, and for some reason I felt that the lightsaber combat controlled much better on mouse and keyboard than on controller.

Also, one of the best things to do was clear out a map and then create your own level within the game with cheats. For example having a 50 Sith vs 50 Jedi battle.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,186
Falling ship level in Jedi Knight is still one of the all time great FPS levels IMO.

But the story in all of the games is pretty awful. It's embarrassing that I ever thought the Jedi Knight cutscenes were good but 1997-me thought they were amazing.
 

jtb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,065
I like these games but I agree with your points about the unbalance between the lightsaber combat and the FPS. Jedi Academy isn't very good.

The two Knights of the Old Republic games are completely on a tier of their own in the Star Wars pantheon. I don't know that we'll ever have developers recieve that kind of freedom again needed to create a really singular vision under either Disney or the current EA license, which is really sad.
 

Persagen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,585
What struck me most when replaying Jedi Outcast recently for the first time in years was how little guidance you're given on what to do and where to go. No map, no waypoints, no hints, no nothing - just a vague, often useless description of your objective in the pause screen.

On top of that, things you can interact with look almost identical to generic background elements. It's such a stark contrast to the glowing, flashing objects of interest in modern games; sometimes literally with a blinking arrow pointed at them.

I still enjoyed it for the most part, and it brought back fond memories of how completely blown away I was when I first played it back in 2002. It was just so jarring that finding the correct path of progression is frequently more difficult than finding the most well-hidden secrets in current games. This game without quicksave would be utterly exasperating.