LTTP: Sonic Adventure

Syril · Jan 7, 2020

I played bits and pieces of both of the SA games forever ago but never actually sat down and got into them before.

I'm using a mod to make it look like the Dreamcast version and I can't believe just how how different and honestly downgraded all the later versions look. Just as an example, Station Square originally had the look of a city that had been around for a long time with rough looking roads and sidewalks and the appearance of modern buildings next to older looking architecture, but the later versions made everything everything look grayer and smoother, looking more like just a generic city. Also I really prefer the older lower-poly character models which fit in with the environments and NPCs more. The mod I used is https://www.moddb.com/mods/sadx-dreamcast-conversion.

What's really interesting is how this game isn't really that different from the Genesis ones in style. The stages are still mostly various natural environments with the heavy industrial areas presented largely negatively through places like the casino's garbage pit and Eggman's carrier, his robots are still powered by animals, and the character models look way closer to the Genesis era than they would later on.

So far I've finished Sonic's part, and it was about as straightforward as a Genesis game too aside from hooks to play the other stories. The cutscenes weren't really any more complicated than the kind of text you would see in a manual for the most part. Like the Genesis games there was way less gotta go fast than people probably remember and a surprising amount of platforming which was very manageable by giving Sonic an extremely long air time. My favorite stages were Red Mountain and Final Egg. I like how you can sequence break with well-timed spindash jumps. I almost skipped the entire last portion of Final Egg with one.

Bomblord · Jan 7, 2020

Gotta finish all stories OP it unlocks an epic final level and true ending.

Deleted member 17184 · Jan 7, 2020

Bomblord said:
Gotta finish both stories OP it unlocks an epic final level and true ending.

Also, if you're willing to go that far getting all A ranks in all the levels will unlock Green Hill Zone.

You're thinking about SA2, not 1!

Deleted member 7883 · Jan 7, 2020

Bomblord said:
Also, if you're willing to go that far getting all A ranks in all the levels will unlock Green Hill Zone.

That's only in Sonic Adventure 2. The big unlock in SA1 is getting all 130 emblems, which lets you play as Metal Sonic in trial mode

Bomblord · Jan 7, 2020

Khrn said:
You're thinking about SA2, not 1!

Woopsiedoodle you're right.

Deleted member 7883 · Jan 7, 2020

I haven't played the Dreamcast version of the game since I was a kid. I was like 4 or 5 when I first played it on the Dreamcast, but I don't think I beat it until around 2003 or 04 on the GameCube.

This is my number one childhood nostalgia game besides Morrowind. I find myself playing through the whole story mode once every year or two. Love everything about it, jank and all. Even Big the Cat.

Deleted member 48897 · Jan 7, 2020

Noise said:
That's only in Sonic Adventure 2. The big unlock in SA1 is getting all 130 emblems, which lets you play as Metal Sonic in trial mode

Note that's only true for the remake, though admittedly the OP is playing that version with heavy mods.

I would strongly encourage seeking out the autodemo windy valley mod at some point, too. That level really deserved better than what it got.

Beren · Jan 7, 2020

I was in love with this game when I was 9. I know it's got a lot of issues, it's janky as shit, and I could never really defend it to anyone (except the Tikal story - I'll defend that shit forever, simple as it is), but I still have a big ole soft spot in my heart for it.

Not enough to replay it, but it's there.

Deleted member 23850 · Jan 7, 2020

Best soundtrack ever.

Syril · Jan 7, 2020

muteKi said:
Note that's only true for the remake, though admittedly the OP is playing that version with heavy mods.

I would strongly encourage seeking out the autodemo windy valley mod at some point, too. That level really deserved better than what it got.

Yeah Windy Valley looks really cool, but it's practically on autopilot. It's definitely the worst "press forward to win" stage in the game.

Beren said:
I was in love with this game when I was 9. I know it's got a lot of issues, it's janky as shit, and I could never really defend it to anyone (except the Tikal story - I'll defend that shit forever, simple as it is), but I still have a big ole soft spot in my heart for it.

Not enough to replay it, but it's there.

It's not really that janky. Like, it's got some issues from trying to reproduce the original games' momentum physics where you lose all speed the instant you brush a wall, and some spots really don't want you to do anything but run forward, but things function pretty reliably. I know the DX version has some pretty severe collision issues (I remember playing the original PC version and falling through the level), but I think the mod I'm using must have fixed them.

MykonosFan · Jan 7, 2020

Still one of my favorite games to just play and zone out to. Some stages have gotten pretty old over the years (Casinopolis, Sky Chase, and 3 Chaos 4 fights if you play in the S-T-K order) but I still have a lot of fun playing it. That DC mod you're using helps a lot too. I forgot how Aesthetic Speed Highway was in the original version.

almutama · Jan 7, 2020

I really liked the casino stage for Sonic. A nice change of pace.

Barrel Cannon · Jan 7, 2020

It's a game that shows its age a bit more now but glad you are still able to enjoy it OP. I remember loving it as a kid and didn't know the later versions got downgraded until more recently

Beren · Jan 7, 2020

Syril said:
It's not really that janky. Like, it's got some issues from trying to reproduce the original games' momentum physics where you lose all speed the instant you brush a wall, and some spots really don't want you to do anything but run forward, but things function pretty reliably. I know the DX version has some pretty severe collision issues (I remember playing the original PC version and falling through the level), but I think the mod I'm using must have fixed them.

I don't have any experience with the mod you're using, and my most recent knowledge is the DX version, but yeah, it's super janky. This is the game that introduced the world to Sonic's ongoing camera problems, after all.

Syril · Jan 7, 2020

Barrel Cannon said:
It's a game that shows its age a bit more now but glad you are still able to enjoy it OP. I remember loving it as a kid and didn't know the later versions got downgraded until more recently

It's not very well known that the versions are so different either so I'd be willing to bet that more people being more familiar with the multiple DX releases is part of the reason it's looked back upon unkindly a lot. I know the Dreamcast had a lot of special tricks that could be done with it, but parts of DX look so different it makes me wonder if they ported an incomplete version.

If anyone's interested in the difference between the two they're are a lot of comparison screenshots at https://tcrf.net/Sonic_Adventure_DX:_Director's_Cut_(GameCube)/Changes_from_the_Dreamcast_Version

Syril · Jan 8, 2020

I finished Tails' part. That was...disappointing. Tails is actually really fun to play in this, and I'm pretty sure this is the only time they actually let him be fast in 3D. So why is he missing half the stages and only gets to play small parts of the ones he does have? Everything feet like it was over too soon except for Speed Highway, his very last stage. I would have liked to play the whole game with him.

His storyline of trying to keep up with Sonic before eventually stepping out of his shadow was very sweet and an all too rare example of post-3D Sega telling a story without spelling it out. I just wish it wasn't over so fast. Like if Tails having to save the day himself lasted more than a single stage.

Kinsei · Jan 8, 2020

The best part of playing as onic in this game is the spin dash. The only 3D game to get it perfect IMO.

Tails really needed a few more levels racing Eggman to make better use of his abilities.

Sixfortyfive · Jan 8, 2020

You need to play Big's story because it's... an experience.
Then you need to play Gamma's story because he's the character that justifies the game's existence.

aerie · Jan 8, 2020

I'm actually replaying Sonic Adventure 1 right now too, also with the Dreamcast mod. Using the instant lightspeed mod, as well as a few others. Just to clean up the experience a tad. I'm only an hour or two in at the moment, but having a blast.

I have played the game more than a few times though, and do love it, despite its flaws.

Syril · Jan 8, 2020

Sixfortyfive said:
You need to play Big's story because it's... an experience.
Then you need to play Gamma's story because he's the character that justifies the game's existence.

Big is voiced by Duke Nukem in this.

GingerbreadMan · Jan 8, 2020

Syril said:
What's really interesting is how this game isn't really that different from the Genesis ones in style.

It really is. Even the gameplay, as you said, it's a 3D take to the momentum-based platform of the classic Sonic games. However I find the game is at odd with itself here - the controls gave Sonic a lot of freedom but then you often have scripted sequences and iirc the levels - outside some hidden extra lives here and there - aren't built around that, they don't have the various roads of the MegaDrive games for example.

It's a shame Sonic Team never really tried to perfect the SA1 formula - SA2 has tighter controls, but also a totally different "gotta go fast" level design. The various Sonic tech demo built by fans, like Sonic Utopia, seem to be closer to a modern-day, fully realized version of SA1 vision.

So far I've finished Sonic's part, and it was about as straightforward as a Genesis game too aside from hooks to play the other stories. The cutscenes weren't really any more complicated than the kind of text you would see in a manual for the most part.

The various stories also build on the lore of the classic games, S3K in particular.

Syril said:
I finished Tails' part. That was...disappointing. Tails is actually really fun to play in this, and I'm pretty sure this is the only time they actually let him be fast in 3D. So why is he missing half the stages and only gets to play small parts of the ones he does have? Everything feet like it was over too soon except for Speed Highway, his very last stage. I would have liked to play the whole game with him.

Oh yeah, Tails could be as good as Sonic but the game doesn't let him shine. Ideally, Sonic levels could be harder and more platform-based and Tails would work pretty well as a super-guide character to skip them (or part of them).

Aaron · Jan 8, 2020

BetterSADX is the ideal way to play the game, really. Most of the changes made to the GameCube version degraded the experience and it only got worse with each port. After PC with mods I would recommend the Dreamcast original over anything else.

Tikal and Gamma's stories are badass. Let it never be said that Sonic can't have good stories. The dialogue and execution are still kind of terrible, but just try and have fun with it.

I'm in the minority that thinks SA1 was a better game than SA2, for what that's worth.

Don't spoil yourself if you haven't reached this yet, but Gamma's ending:

Such a cool twist on a staple of the series since its inception.

The prototype Windy Valley level design that surfaced lately is interesting too, definitely feels like they originally wanted to stick closer to the Genesis games.

julian · Jan 8, 2020

I will always remember discovering in Tails' first level that...well he can fly. So you can race Sonic honestly if you want, or you can just jump off the floating island at the start and fly straight towards the goal. It wouldn't pop-in for a while on the Dreamcast but it wasn't tricky to get to.

banter · Jan 8, 2020

I remember legitimately enjoying the original on dreamcast and not so much in subsequent releases. I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong but you all pointing these things out has made it quite clear. It's a shame we don't have a modern "good version".

Tace · Jan 8, 2020

SA1>SA2

So many good memories of playing that first game on Dreamcast

Tailzo · Jan 8, 2020

Sonic Adventure was always an awesome game, and still is. I'm so sick of this being an opinion that is mocked by so many.

PeakPointMatrix · Jan 8, 2020

I get the feeling that the most vocal detractors of this game played the GC/PC ports that made the game uglier and buggier. The DC original has a quirk or two, but nothing close to being unplayable. I could play the game just as breezily as I did when I was 9.

SA is still my favorite 3D Sonic. Character-driven plots, great stage themes, the most varied and catchy soundtrack in the franchise, the sheer scope of it all was unbelievable in 1998. The game has soul, and clearly had a ton of love poured into it.

It really saddens me how people seem to be obsessed with kicking this game to the ground for aging poorly (seriously what kind of knock is this? EVERY game from 98 has aged poorly), or played inferior ports painting their opinion of it. So I'm glad to see you giving it an honest shot and seeing the game for it's positives.

Enjoy the rest, and please post your impressions post-Gamma campaign.

Tailzo · Jan 8, 2020

PeakPointMatrix said:
I get the feeling that the most vocal detractors of this game played the GC/PC ports that made the game uglier and buggier. The DC original has a quirk or two, but nothing close to being unplayable. I could play the game just as breezily as I did when I was 9.

SA is still my favorite 3D Sonic. Character-driven plots, great stage themes, the most varied and catchy soundtrack in the franchise, the sheer scope of it all was unbelievable in 1998. The game has soul, and clearly had a ton of love poured into it.

It really saddens me how people seem to be obsessed with kicking this game to the ground for aging poorly (seriously what kind of knock is this? EVERY game from 98 has aged poorly), or played inferior ports painting their opinion of it. So I'm glad to see you giving it an honest shot and seeing the game for it's positives.

Enjoy the rest, and please post your impressions post-Gamma campaign.

Thank you, feels good to see other positive opinions. I've endured years of hate for loving this game.

My username is how I thought Tails was pronounced in Japanese. I imported a Dreamcast and this game and soon after vga cables.

Syril · Jan 8, 2020

banter said:
I remember legitimately enjoying the original on dreamcast and not so much in subsequent releases. I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong but you all pointing these things out has made it quite clear. It's a shame we don't have a modern "good version".

The modded PC version is the modern good version. The way I'm playing it is basically the Dreamcast version in HD at 60fps.

Mr.Fletcher · Jan 8, 2020

I would love to see Sonic Adventure on Switch. It amazed me when I was younger and I regularly played it round a relatives, but never had it myself.

Despite it's flaws, I'd love to play it on the go, on a modern console.

banter · Jan 8, 2020

Syril said:
The modded PC version is the modern good version. The way I'm playing it is basically the Dreamcast version in HD at 60fps.

Yeah, but i mean an official, out of the box good to go, multi-platform type thing. (Aka: a remaster than actually retains or maybe even enhances the original rather than make it a mess like current iterations do)

Ravio-li · Jan 8, 2020

I played it 1/2 Years ago for the first time... I think Big the cat wasn't all that bad^^ It was actually amusing in how stupid it was. Better than Amy's campaign at least, glad I never have to slog through that again.

eso76 · Jan 8, 2020

SA was janky and had camera issues.
It was also absolutely brilliant.

So many ideas, striking visual conceptions, different gameplay for all characters and minigames, the whole Chao raising on VMU. One of the best, most diverse OST ever.
Some levels (final egg especially) are an absolute roller coaster with all sorts of surprising design cues thrown at you at an incredible pace.

SA was flawed but fantastic.
SA2 was quite a bit more polished, but nowhere near as memorable or creatively remarkable.

Will definitely look into the mods OP is using.

virtua_44 · Jan 8, 2020

PeakPointMatrix said:
I get the feeling that the most vocal detractors of this game played the GC/PC ports that made the game uglier and buggier. The DC original has a quirk or two, but nothing close to being unplayable. I could play the game just as breezily as I did when I was 9.

SA is still my favorite 3D Sonic. Character-driven plots, great stage themes, the most varied and catchy soundtrack in the franchise, the sheer scope of it all was unbelievable in 1998. The game has soul, and clearly had a ton of love poured into it.

It really saddens me how people seem to be obsessed with kicking this game to the ground for aging poorly (seriously what kind of knock is this? EVERY game from 98 has aged poorly), or played inferior ports painting their opinion of it. So I'm glad to see you giving it an honest shot and seeing the game for it's positives.

Enjoy the rest, and please post your impressions post-Gamma campaign.

I guess its hard for me to judge this game. I played the PC steam port last year and hated it. It was terribly buggy, esp the camera. Its hard for me to excuse that bc nothing else about the game seemed promising either - ie progression or level design. I even hated the music. Yet I see all these things praised and I get so confused. Idk. I beats Sonics campaign then i quit. Didnt like it :(

Also..... every game from 98 hasnt aged well? Thats quite the claim. I happen to recall Ocarina of Time, Links Awakening DX, Half Life, Xmen vs Street Fighter, Symphony of the Night, and Banjo-Kazooie recieving high praise in 2020.

Syril · Jan 8, 2020

I finished Knuckles' part. There was more actual game here than with Tails, but the game's 10-month development time was really showing here. The camera was not equipped to handle Knuckles climbing, and neither were the physics. I can't help but feel like Tails would have been more suited to these collectathon levels with his flight able to shine more than just sequence breaking Sonic's levels.

After three stories, it's really clear that Tikal's scenes are the actual plot, which is making all the "stop Eggman's plot again" that most of the main trio's story is involved with feel like a waste of time. It makes me kind of wish they didn't bother with the pretense and had more with her during the other stories instead of just teasing the final story with her.

Tailzo · Jan 9, 2020

Mr.Fletcher said:
I would love to see Sonic Adventure on Switch. It amazed me when I was younger I regularly played it round a relatives, but never had it myself.

Despite it's flaws, I'd love to play it on the go, on a modern console.

Makes me want to mod my Switch and install a Dreamcast emulator...

Anyway, I miss the Chao garden. Was Yuji Naka that important in programming the chao garden? That is one of the threories I've read why it hasn't returned in modern games.

Nali · Jan 9, 2020

Tailzo said:
Anyway, I miss the Chao garden. Was Yuji Naka that important in programming the chao garden? That is one of the threories I've read why it hasn't returned in modern games.

Naka probably never touched them, but the lead programmer for the mode jumped ship to Square-Enix ages ago, yes, and only one of the two people involved in designing it seem to still be at Sega in recent years.

Tailzo · Jan 9, 2020

Sciz said:
Naka probably never touched them, but the lead programmer for the mode jumped ship to Square-Enix ages ago, yes, and only one of the two people involved in designing it seem to still be at Sega in recent years.

Ok thanks. But someone else at Sega has to be able to make something like the chao garden?

ffvorax · Jan 9, 2020

Bomblord said:
Gotta finish all stories OP it unlocks an epic final level and true ending.

This!
SA is one of my favourite Sonic! I cant say the same for the sequel... :\

Syril · Jan 15, 2020

Wow Amy sure is more enjoyable when she's not done as a stalker with consent issues. Her story of protecting a Flicky bird from a killer robot and helping it find its family is great, and again fitting with the environmental themes that they kind of lost interest in over time.

Her gameplay is very fun and unique, which is why it pisses me off that her entire part was THREE STAGES. Is there a mod to let everyone else play Sonic's stages? Because it's really starting to annoy me how everyone who's not Sonic has barely any gameplay.

Syril · Jan 16, 2020

Despite the game's best efforts, I still like Big the Cat. Now here's this totally unrelated comic page of Big the Cat doing what I wished would have happened in his story.

PeakPointMatrix · Jan 17, 2020

Syril said:
Her gameplay is very fun and unique, which is why it pisses me off that her entire part was THREE STAGES. Is there a mod to let everyone else play Sonic's stages? Because it's really starting to annoy me how everyone who's not Sonic has barely any gameplay.

Wow, the rare opinion that enjoys Amy's segment! I actually don't mind her either, and wish for her return to the main cast as playable. I really like picking up momentum and swinging the hammer to start super-jumping around stages. Running from Zero was a nice twist too.

When it comes to the limited amount of stages, it's likely that there simply wasn't enough story to go around for each character to warrant it. That, and I'm sure Sonic Team designing a full 10 Action Stages for all 6 characters was just not possible at the time (the game only had 9 months in full development). Of course there are mods out there to hack all characters into all stages if you seek them out.

By my count, you only have Gamme left right? Enjoy! It's my favorite of the 6 stories.

Syril · Jan 17, 2020

Goddamnit, Sonic Team was really good at telling stories every time they could just stop themselves from spelling every single thing out with dialogue and let characters' actions speak for them. Nights into Dreams, Phantasy Star Online, Tails' story, Gamma's story. Did they just not realize they were good at this?

Gamma's gameplay felt kind of half-baked, but I'll forgive them because it was pretty painless, and he had more actual unique levels than the other supporting cast did, plus his story actually kept going until a logical end instead of just ending right when it got interesting. I kind of already knew how it went, but his story is definitely the most inspired one of them all, building very well on the concept of "Eggman captures animals and uses them to power robots". The ending scene of Gamma self-destructing after freeing his family so the Flicky powering him could join them is again an annoyingly rare case of them actually doing anything with the environmental times that the games had at the beginning.

Aaron · Jan 17, 2020

Syril said:
Goddamnit, Sonic Team was really good at telling stories every time they could just stop themselves from spelling every single thing out with dialogue and let characters' actions speak for them. Nights into Dreams, Phantasy Star Online, Tails' story, Gamma's story. Did they just not realize they were good at this?

Gamma's gameplay felt kind of half-baked, but I'll forgive them because it was pretty painless, and he had more actual unique levels than the other supporting cast did, plus his story actually kept going until a logical end instead of just ending right when it got interesting. I kind of already knew how it went, but his story is definitely the most inspired one of them all, building very well on the concept of "Eggman captures animals and uses them to power robots". The ending scene of Gamma self-destructing after freeing his family so the Flicky powering him could join them is again an annoyingly rare case of them actually doing anything with the environmental times that the games had at the beginning.

Syril · Jan 18, 2020

"All's well that ends well, right?"

TAILS, THE CITY IS DESTROYED.

I'll be honest, the final part didn't really do it for me. Chaos' second phase was pretty frustrating because if you lost your speed near him, you had to either backtrack to a speed booster with the camera facing the wrong way or let yourself do a failed attack to try another run. Also, I was expecting there to be something new with Tikal's story in it, but everyone else's scenes with her kind of already told everything.

They seemed like they were trying to do something interesting with breaking cycles of violence, but then they also wanted to do a big climax fight with Super Sonic and it felt like they ended up just making up contrivances to try to have it both ways. Oh no, the chaos emeralds are all drained! Oh wait, you can still use them by drawing on their positive energy(?). Fighting Chaos and sealing him away won't help him and just perpetuate the cycle for a future generation. Oh wait, fighting him with Super Sonic just magically healed him instead, guess we're done. I did appreciate Gamma's Flicky showing up with everyone. Kinda wish that Flicky was a recurring charges to be honest. Perfect Chaos is a cool Kaiju design too.

I'm pretty curious about a hypothetical remake of remake of this, considering a lot of it felt like just the best they could do in 10 months.

Next step, find some mods to fix Sonic Adventure 2's terrible sound editing.

Narroo · Jan 18, 2020

PeakPointMatrix said:
Wow, the rare opinion that enjoys Amy's segment! I actually don't mind her either, and wish for her return to the main cast as playable. I really like picking up momentum and swinging the hammer to start super-jumping around stages. Running from Zero was a nice twist too.

When it comes to the limited amount of stages, it's likely that there simply wasn't enough story to go around for each character to warrant it. That, and I'm sure Sonic Team designing a full 10 Action Stages for all 6 characters was just not possible at the time (the game only had 9 months in full development). Of course there are mods out there to hack all characters into all stages if you seek them out.

By my count, you only have Gamme left right? Enjoy! It's my favorite of the 6 stories.

I also like Amy's stages. Her campaign was just the right length to not get too tedious. Changes of pace are nice in moderation.

PeakPointMatrix · Jan 18, 2020

Syril said:
"All's well that ends well, right?"

TAILS, THE CITY IS DESTROYED.

I'll be honest, the final part didn't really do it for me. Chaos' second phase was pretty frustrating because if you lost your speed near him, you had to either backtrack to a speed booster with the camera facing the wrong way or let yourself do a failed attack to try another run. Also, I was expecting there to be something new with Tikal's story in it, but everyone else's scenes with her kind of already told everything.

They seemed like they were trying to do something interesting with breaking cycles of violence, but then they also wanted to do a big climax fight with Super Sonic and it felt like they ended up just making up contrivances to try to have it both ways. Oh no, the chaos emeralds are all drained! Oh wait, you can still use them by drawing on their positive energy(?). Fighting Chaos and sealing him away won't help him and just perpetuate the cycle for a future generation. Oh wait, fighting him with Super Sonic just magically healed him instead, guess we're done. I did appreciate Gamma's Flicky showing up with everyone. Kinda wish that Flicky was a recurring charges to be honest. Perfect Chaos is a cool Kaiju design too.

I'm pretty curious about a hypothetical remake of remake of this, considering a lot of it felt like just the best they could do in 10 months.

Next step, find some mods to fix Sonic Adventure 2's terrible sound editing.

Maybe the effect was lost after so many years and games doing the same, but when the full "Open Your Heart" kicked in for the first Perfect Chaos segment, every hair on my neck stood up. It was so perfect. It's one of my most memorable gaming memories. I have no idea why they chose to have generic music for the second part.

Combichristoffersen · Jan 19, 2020

Only played the PC and PS3 ports, and graphics aside, the game just isn't particularly good. The camera is broken, the level design ranges from middling to awful, and playing as the non-Sonic characters is rather meh (Big's story is straight up terrible). It's not as bad as what would follow, but it's a steep decline in quality from the 8-bit and 16-bit games. It was also the game to bring godawful buttrock into the Sonic series.

DiK4 · Jan 19, 2020

Game was awesome back in the day on Dreamcast. My favorite Sonic game, the sequel was a big step-down in fun factor. Someday I hope they give this game a remake done right.

daninthemix · Jan 19, 2020

It has all the jank, terrible gameplay and camera problems of a 90s developer grasping around asking itself "so, 3D eh...what's that all about?".

LTTP: Sonic Adventure

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